90% of Romanian Jews killed during WW2?, according to some sources

Dude, Johnson says:

Now any sane person realises in this quote Johnson assigns the general blame for the Holocaust to Hitler. But any other sane person understands that the jews in Romania and Hungary were not under his direct control, but under these countries' governments control. That is why Romania is presently accused of taking part in the Holocaust and denying that blame and assigning it to other country/political leader is considered denial of the holocaust in Romania!

Even if Johnson is unclear in this quote about the blame, he does give a clear number of 750,000 jews killed in Romania. The main point in me giving this quote was this number, but you want to avoid it!

Now if you argue he was wrong about that number, fine. But remember how this discussion started. I clearly said some western authors lead me to believe Romania killed 90% of its jewish population. Whether they were right or wrong is besides the point, I clearly showed you that they did lead me to believe that:

Now if you want to show they were wrong:

1) do so - provide other statistics

2) dont blame me, blame them, I only said they lead me to believe that 90% figure

IS IT CLEARER NOW MR. SID???

take care

Just curious, since there are massive amounts of documentation on the subject, how was the 6 million figure arrived at? How was it calculated, and by whom?

Sincerely curious,

Mabadesc

Hossbaach Memorandum.

and then some...

The Nazis also kept quite good records of their acheivments as well.

All of which were documented and noted by the Allies at the end of the War.

Kevin in Deva.

Hi Imp,

You are missing some fundamental points here. I don't have to disprove your points. You, like the rest of us, first have to justify them yourself if challenged. Just because you post something doesn't mean that it is gospel and unchallengeable. That shows an ego massively out of control. You may style yourself "Imperialist" but your posts don't have the unchallengeable authority of an Imperial Edict!

Back to the specific issues:

You said that Western authors led you to believe that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jewish population and you quote just two, Johnson and Carp.

In your own quote Johnson attributes 750,000 Jewish deaths in Romania to Hitler. He says nothing about Romanian culpability. NOTHING! You therefore cannot blame Johnson for something he did not write. On top of this mindbogglingly obvious and easily verifiable point, there is the fact that Johnson is wildly wrong. Johnson is a bad source being misrepresented by you. You could hardly have shakier foundations!

You bet I want to avoid the 750,000 figure. It is totally inaccurate! On those grounds you should want to avoid it too!

What led you to believe this ridiculous 90% figure is not either Johnson or Carp. It is your own complete inability to sift through their quotes in a rational manner. Even now that this has been pointed out to you, you are still making inaccurate assumptions about their quotes that are not based on their contents.

We have a real problem here. It is both obvious that your original proposition that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jewish population is an enormous exaggeration and that the sources you blame for this error on your part did not in fact state this either explicitly or implicitly in the first place. You must make up your mind. Which is more important? The facts or your ego?

The only thing standing between the rest of us and the facts is your ego. You were wrong and it was your own fault. Admit it, get over it and let's move on.

Cheers,

Sid.

I see, so my posts dont have unchallengeable authority, but yours do! Here you go saying how Johnson was wrong, the 750,000 figure is wrong. OK, prove it. Provide other statistics, that is what I've said, but you refused, allegedly because you dont want to do my research. So you're basically aggressively attacking and denying my posts any valability (not to say authority!) while inflating yours with no backing. Nice, but that's trolling.

Are you serious?!! He doesnt say anything outright in this quote about Romanian culpability, but it's something called INFERENCE, for crying out loud!!! And something obvious since Romania IS blamed for taking part in the Holocaust.
Besides, the guy wrote a book. I am sure there is a quote there CLEARLY blaming Romania! Demanding me to go look for it is uncalled for, since you are hanging on an excuse that you dont understand the real meaning of this one. I wont go again chasing quotes so as to satisfy your never satisfied appetite and provide you with excuses.

You still havent addressed the facts, and the facts are that Johnson and Carp give 750,000 killed out of a 760,000 population.

Hi Imp,

You can try to change the subject all you want, but these facts remain.

1) The Romanians did NOT exterminate 90% of their Jewish population

and

2) The sources that you say led you to this mistaken belief did NOT actually say so at all.

The 90% figure is entirely your concoction! Johnson didn't say it and Carp didn't say it. All you have done is pluck two unrelated statistics from two different sources and put them together wrongly and inaccurately.

I have not put up any figures at all. I am simply challenging you to justify yours, as I am not simply entitled to do, but as is imperative when such a major historical error is made.

Exactly. "Inference" is what you are engaged in, and you "inferred" wrongly!

Er, did I read that right? "I am sure there is a quote there clearly blaming Romania" but "Demanding me to go look for it is uncalled for......"!

Uncalled for? It is very much called for given the complete failure of your last two quotes to say what you claimed they said. You are so far on this thread wildly unreliable. You bet I am going to ask you to "go look for it". Or is this another case where you expect us to blindly accept your infallible Imperial Edict despite your less than impressive record for accuracy?

You don't owe anything to me that requires you to produce sources when questioned. You owe it to historical accuracy and everyone who might otherwise be misled! Ignore me if you wish, but do it for them.

No. No. No. Johnson (inaccurately) according to your own quote said 750,000 Romanian Jews deaths are attribuutable to Hitler.

Quite separately Carp said in your other quote that the total population of Romanian Jews was about 760,000 in early 1940. However, you conveniently ignore that he gives much lower death rate figures in favour of what Johnson doesn't actually say!

It is you who put them together inappropriately. Nobody else.

Why you chose to invent such an extreme figure as 90% is a mystery to me. And "invent" is precisely the right word. Have you got it in for Romanians that you not only peddle, but seek to defend against even your own evidence, this ridiculous figure?

Cheers,

Sid.

Johnson says 750,000 jews were killed in Romania. Can you admit this simple fact or are you going to beat around the bush like you usually do?

Why you are so desperate to spin this simple fact is beyond me. Whether he blames Hitler, Antonescu, Pol Pot or Saddam for their death is irrelevant, since he clearly puts 750,000 jews killed in Romania. And this number was the point of the thread, not who Johnson blames!

However, if your highness is unaware, Romania does get the blame for killing its jews during WWII, NOT Hitler. You are deliberately using Johnson's quote in which he assigns the general blame for the whole Holocaust to the originator of the Final Solution and its main driving force in order to spin out this thread.

Focus on the 750,000 please, and explain how this number forwarded by the respectable author Paul Johnson in a book of history shouldnt have lead me to the conclusion that 90% of the jewish population in Romania was exterminated. Can you also do that without doing what you always do - attacking me? Thank you.

take care

According to your logic, from the excerpt from Johnson, the Poles are guilty for the Jews killed in Poland, and Russians for theirs

Poland and Russia were in completely different situations in relation to Germany than Romania and Hungary were. The latter were ALLIES. The latter had national governments. Their (or parts of) territory was not administered by occupation troops from Germany. If you want to imply that Romania was not guilty for the jews killed IN Romania, you run contrary to the commission on the Holocaust, and I can accuse you of denial and antisemitism.

Poland and Russia were in completely different situations in relation to Germany than Romania and Hungary were. The latter were ALLIES. The latter had national governments. Their (or parts of) territory was not administered by occupation troops from Germany.

Well, where in the excerpt of Johnston does he say that?

You started to claim something erroneous based on the interpretation of several propositions you quoted from Johnston, nothing else. Both his claim and yours are inaccurate, and I gave an example of what conclusion you can reach by using the narrow approach of yours.

Johnson clearly says 750,000 jews were exterminated in Romania. Apart from the 400,000 killed in Hungary! So he clearly discerns between the 2.

Romania at the time was 1) Germany's Ally; 2) not occupied; 3) had its own national government; 4) its territory and policies were not administered by any Nazi Governor-General.

Johnson doesnt explicitly blame Romania in the excerpt, but using these premises can we logically deduce that guilt, or are we going to hide behind our fingers and deny it because in that specific quote Johnson doesnt say it. Add to those premises the fact that Romania is accused for the Holocaust, officially.

I did not say Johnson was right. I said judging by the number he puts out, at least 90% of the jewish population in Romania was exterminated. Do you agree with this simple fact or are you going to change the argument from the number he puts out to the way he assigns guilt in the quote? Is this thread about "was Romania guilty of the Holocaust or Hitler?" or "90% of Romanian Jews killed during WW2 according to some sources" !!!!

take care

Hi Imp,

Your dishonesty in the face of contradiction by sources quoted by yourself is truly shameless.

The facts are now what they have always been:

1) You stated that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jewish population. Not true. Yet you still haven't withdrawn this ridiculous exaggeration.

2) When challenged you blamed Johnson and Carp for misleading you. Not so. Neither of their quotes you put up yourself mentions a 90% figure. Johnson doesn't even attribute the deaths to Romanians, but to Hitler, and Carp's statistics imply a death rate far below 90%. Yet you still pretend your own mistake is theirs! You chose the 90% figure, not them.

What I don't understand is why you have decided unilaterally to construct such a high figure, when Carp's figures, which are far more comprehensive than Johnson's, already give a specific figure for deaths of up to 340,000 - or something rather less that 50%?

This 90% figure is entirely your invention and entirely your choice.

What makes it worse is that you have made no effort whatsoever to double check your ridiculous percentages.

I have left you squirming for long enough. As a starter to putting you on the road to accuracy try the following link:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Isr...nG=Search&meta=

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. On second thoughts, your impetus to do proper research being so limited, let's go straight to the following link, which took me all of two minutes to find:

http://www.eurojewcong.org/ejc/news.php?id_article=110

Cheers,

Sid.

You continue to repeat that same thing over and over again, ignoring anything else and avoiding any discussion about it. I already posted this:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=55846

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/antonescu.html

I know it is hard to reason with you, and you are too proud to answer my question while you assault me with your questions and demands, but do you realise that the Antonescu regime gets the blame for the jews killed in Romania, YES OR NO? Do you admit that Johnson says 750,000 jews were killed in Romania, YES OR NO? These are simple question but you continue to avoid them.