War crimes commited against the Romanians

There is an totaly unknown fact from the autumn of 44. It happend in the Indoleni village, situated nearby Turda area. Old people from that location can justify for it and i dont know if it was ever oficially recorded. Giving the romanian situation at that time of the war and after, i think not. The things were covered up i guess by the following authorities and time slowly erased the event. It was an "mistake", i may call it so, commited by the oficers and tank crew soldiers of an soviet tank platoon, but nevertheless it was commited against civilians. The victims were 5 aged paysants, locals from Indoleni (some 100 km NW from Turda Gorges pass/ Cluj district). They were shoot dead after the tanks rolled in the village from the north east road comming from Sandulesti and "Turda Gorges" where an asembly area and Hq of an soviet tank regiment were established. The exact details of the event are unknown to me, all i can do is to remember the Indoleni people testimony. They say, all those 5 villagers filled with curiosity, warm thoughts and best wishes, marched in front of the vehicles in order to welcome the soviet column. Their mistake was the wearing of green shirts and clothes, and somehow the soviet officers saw an "assault" or danger in that. (!) It was an popular fashion at that time for the paysant (and not only levi) population, to wear green clothes. May all rest in peace...

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There is an totaly unknown fact from the autumn of 44. It happend in the Indoleni village, situated nearby Turda area..........It was an \"mistake\", i may call it so, commited by the oficers and tank crew soldiers of an soviet tank platoon, but nevertheless it was commited against civilians. The victims were 5 aged paysants, locals from Indoleni (some 100 km NW from Turda Gorges pass/ Cluj district).

Hi,
Well, the "aerials" introduced an additional spice in this debate about the crimes against the Romanians: the Soviet factor.

In high school I had a class colleague who told me how in his native village the Soviet soldiers cut the breasts of a woman in 1944. This atrocity happened in Oltenia.

This is something somehow unusual, compared with the "common" rapes and lootings performed by the Soviet soldiers on a day-by-day basis.

Florin :evil:

On 1 April 1941, in northern Bukovina, a large column of Romanian refugees from the villages of Crasna, Ciudei, Cupca, Prisacani, Patrautii de Jos, tried to cross the border into Romania to escape Soviet occupation. At Suceveni, after a religious ceremony, the column headed for Adancata (today Hliboca), holding crosses and white flags. About two hours away of Romanian border, they stopped at Adancata, where they were supposed to get permits for repatriation, from the Soviet administration. They were asked why did they want to go to “the fascists on the other side of the border”, and several elders displayed documents attesting the land under their feet belonged to them. The masses got on the move crying loudly “To Romania !”. On a valley east of Fantana Alba the column was attacked by mounted cossacks. Survivors told that the cossack leader struck with his sword the wooden cross held by the man leading the columns, but, miraculously, the sword broke into pieces and the cossack fell off his horse. About two kilometers away from the Romanian border, the column was cought in an enfilade of rifles and machineguns. It was a trap set on purpose. Those who escaped the massacre were arrested later in their homes. Three months later, when Romanian troops have liberated Bukovina, at Fantana Alba 28 mass graves were discovered, with some 7000-15000 bodies. A troika was erected in 1942.

In 1990 it was proposed that a trial should take place for this massacre, but Ukrainean authorities refused this action.

Maybe we never know all war crimes comitet by russians in Romania - Im talkinhg about 1940 in Bassarabia N of Bucovina and the rest of WW2. My wife s grandma was a young woman in 1944, who lives in a little town Radna, now in Arad county (yes, there was the Radna - Paulis battle), W of Romania. At one moment - maybe just before of paulish battle her street was full with german troops but not even 1 soldier open one gates to ask wather or something ... nobady was disturbed by germans.

But after russians comming ... Young women use to wear old fashion clothes and to cover the faces as was possible - obviosly why. And the neybour doughter with his father was to buy something and a few russian soldiers ask them to stop and they want to take that youg woman. When his father was trayed to s protest he was shoted in head ... then they shot his doughter too. Also my wife s grandma was in great danger when a few russians come after her on the street. She run into close of his house but russians come after her. .. Fortunately, an russian officer miraculously apear there and he restablish order ....

Also one of my frieds father was born in autumn 1944 and his birth was helped by a hungarian army medic who was near by. And in the falowing days the hungarian soldiers help that romanian family with some food ... and one of them brook some wood for making fire ...

On 1 April 1941, Romanian peasants living in Northern Bukovina close to the 9 month old frontier with Romania, wanted to leave the Soviet Union. 3,000 of them marched down to the border. At Fantana Alba they were awaited by Soviet machine-guns. A massacre followed, during which almost all of them were killed.

The same story I have posted three messages above.

Members of GPU (Red Army special services) and bolshevik commissar (2nd from the left) captured at Kishinev, after allegedly having committed terrorist acts ("Signal" 1/September 1941).

I've just came back from a long roadtrip through Romania. On 9th of September, i incidentally passed through the village of Treznea, Salaj county, near Zalau, where a massacre was commemorated. Here, in 9th September 1940, Hungarian "troops" killed 87 Romanians and 6 Jews.
Romanian troops were retreating according to the Vienna Diktat and the Hungarian troops came in without any incidents. After the regular Hungarian troops left, a band of Hungarians from Zalau, dressed in Hungarian military uniforms came in and killed everyone in sight. Some kids with cows on a field were shot in the head, the priest was shot in both legs and then burned alive, pregnant women stabbed with swords in the whom,... The women were raped and old men were undressed and forced to walk naked through the village. Around 200 people were gathered up and marched on a nearby cliff where they were to be machinegunned (one of them is Prof. Ioan Puscas, now a member of the Academy). The Hungarians living in the village tried to stop the massacre but they were beaten themselves, they only succeded in hiding some Romanians in their houses.
The retreating Romanian army was nearby, in the village of Poarta Salaj. The commanding officer (unfortunately nobody knows his name) heard the shots and came back. He threatened a Hungarian officer that he will order his men to attack if the massacre doesn't stop. The Hungarian officer sent his troops in the village and stoped the massacre. The 200 men on the cliff were released. In 1945, the killers were sentenced to death by the courthouse in Cluj.
The Hungarian authorites didn't punish the killers in any way, although their names were known. In 1942, baron Ioska, governor of Salaj county and ex-senator in the Romanian parliament, said: "I see with pain that we still have too many Romanians in our county, some of them too wealthy."

Many people were present at this commemoration. Unfortunately, some of them tried to alter the historic truth. Laszlo Deak, president of UDMR Salaj told me that the regular Hungarian troops commited the massacre because they were attacked by the villagers(!). He obviously didn't know what happened and made up this story. Gheorghe Funar told me that the massacre was done by all Hungarians, incuding the regular army and the Hungarian villagers, who "still have nothing but hate for all us Romanians".

Five days later, 157 Romanians were killed in the nearby village of Ip. Romanians were killed in other 32 villages in the Salaj county.

This post by Dragos03 fits nicely in its tone to the previous one, posted by ^All^ on Sept. 17: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1294&st=15

Anyhow, in short, your information contain half truths, "enhanced" so it would fit a certain agenda.

Here is what presumably have actually happened in that well-publicized incident in Treznea (Ördögkút), based mainly on Hungarian sources (including military investigations):

On Sept. 9, 1940, the advancing Hungarian troops were fired upon with a machine gun from the local (Rumanian) Orthodox church's tower by the priest's daughter. Other locals fired upon the Hungarians, too. Four Hungarian soldiers were wounded.
The Hungarian troops answered heavy handedly, with concentrated machine guns fire, killing many locals, including the priest and his family, and destroying partially the Orthodox church.
This was the most violent incident during the takover of Northern Transylvania by the Hungarian forces according to the Vienna Resolution.

As for citing Gheorghe Funar - the now defunct ex-mayor of Cluj, well know for his extremist, rabid anti-Hungarian views - is ridiculous, at least from the historiography point of view. It's similar to relying on Slobodan Milosevic to describe the Serbs' persecution...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 21, 2004 03:56 am

This post by Dragos03 fits nicely in its tone to the previous one, posted by ^All^ on Sept. 17: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1294&st=15

Anyhow, in short, your information contain half truths, "enhanced" so it would fit a certain agenda.

Here is what presumably have actually happened in that well-publicized incident in Treznea (Ördögkút), based mainly on Hungarian sources (including military investigations):

On Sept. 9, 1940, the advancing Hungarian troops were fired upon with a machine gun from the local (Rumanian) Orthodox church's tower by the priest's daughter. Other locals fired upon the Hungarians, too. Four Hungarian soldiers were wounded.
The Hungarian troops answered heavy handedly, with concentrated machine guns fire, killing many locals, including the priest and his family, and destroying partially the Orthodox church.
This was the most violent incident during the takover of Northern Transylvania by the Hungarian forces according to the Vienna Resolution.

As for citing Gheorghe Funar - the now defunct ex-mayor of Cluj, well know for his extremist, rabid anti-Hungarian views - is ridiculous, at least from the historiography point of view. It's similar to relying on Slobodan Milosevic to describe the Serbs' persecution...

Gen. Dénes

While Romanian relatation may contain half-truths, the same I could say about the Hungarian one.

I find the story of priest's daughter machine-gunning the Hungarian soldiers hilarious.

dragos03 put the example of Gheorghe Funar near Laszlo Deak. He mentioned that both were trying to alter the historical truth.

Which half truths are in the description I gave, written also based on the military investigation?

Why exactly it seems hilarious the possibility of the priest's daughter firing on Hungarian soldiers? The fact that she was a woman? Or she was the priest's daughter? To me it sounds plausible, knowing that churches and priests (both Rumanian and Hungarian!) obviously are more nationalistic than the average inhabitant.

And comparing the chauvinist Gheorghe Funar with a regular member of the parliament of the Hungarian national party, who probably merely repeated what I just wrote above, is nonsense.
Why do you think that the aforementioned MP László Deák was altering the truth? On what documents/sources is Dragos03 basing his allegations (except, of course, for Funar)?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 22, 2004 09:27 pm

A young woman firing on machinegun? He was a "strong" one? Woman, off course... I think, is hard for a woman to use something like this ... And, he had training, off course, for shoting - if his bullets found the targets (hungarian soldiers wounded). And, in fact, all priest have at list one machine gun in his church tower, no? Is a tradition in Romania!!!


Iama

There is no half-truth in what i wrote. I wrote it based only after talking to all the survivors of the massacre, only eye-witnesses. If you are interested, i can give you some names. I also spoke with the only 2 remaining Hungarians from Treznea who witnessed the massacre and they told the same story.
I didn't read any history book about these events and i don't care what "official" Romanian or Hungarian history has to say about this. If all the survivors tell this story, it must be true.
Laszlo Deak admitted at first that he didn't know what happened and told me to come to his office in Zalau to speak to another Hungarian who was supposed to know. Then, after he listened to my story, he was embarassed and told me his stupid story. His story, in which regular Hungarian troops were attacked by the villagers, is contradicted by his own statement that the killers were all from Zalau. If they were from Zalau, they couldn't serve in the Hungarian army.
Both Funar and Deak tried to manipulate history so they should be in the same boat.
As for the priest's daughters, they were saved from the village by the Hungarian locals and returned to Treznea after the war. So, they didn't fire the machinegun and they were not killed that day.
The Hungarian story is ridiculous and insulting. If you want to know the truth, go and talk to the locals.

Listen, Dragos03, you're entitled to believe in what you want to believe. That's fine with me.
I won't engage in a nationalistic debate. First, that's not my style and second, that's not my purpose being here. I am visiting this site mainly to change information in a decent manner and learn about history (accepting that my knowledge is limited and open to other persons' ideas), without engaging in flame wars.

All I can tell you from my own experience is that eye witnesses of an event happened 60 years ago are not enough for establishing what had actually happened. For that, one needs to research the original documentation and reports compiled at that particular period, by both sides, if possible. Without such documention the picture is only partial and often biased.

Since you clearly say that you're not interested in the Rumanian and Hungarian sides' official stance - moreover, you consider it insulting - then you're apparently not interested to find out the whole historical facts. But, as I said above, that's fine with me.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 22, 2004 09:28 pm

Denes, do you dismiss the possibility of an official distortion of truth?

I'm sure there are official motivations for every atrocity commited. However, to forward these pitiful stories like an excuse for such abominations is disgusting to me. What bothers me is why didn't they come with something better.