Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

Philip,

Do you have any idea where the stories of how we went through the clouds in
Albania/Greece started?

Many books and articles have stated that Compton's two groups climbed to 16,000 feet got a tail wind and lost the Killer Kane section. I have a copy of the navigation log of Compton's crew which shows about 11,000 feet and no extra boost from a tail wind.

Second, it was reported that Kane's group of three made what was called "a frontal penetration maneuver" to go through the cloud bank. I never heard of such a maneuver but it also would have taken a couple of hours to perform and we didn't have the fuel to spare. Where do stories like this start?

In going through the clouds we just stayed in loose formation and went on instruments until we came out the other side. No one crashed but I sure lost a few pounds sweating out the trip.

Revisionists are opportunists but many thrive on authors who write without doing any research. Talking with the KEY people on the Ploesti which included the actual planner,General Jake Smart, I took him on his first B24 mission in Africa in July of 1943, General K.K. Compton the ACTUAL Leader of the LL Ploesti and his co-pilot Red Thompson,the navigator and bombardier before writing my book, verified many of the events that are incorrectly reported in many books.

Maybe the American archives will some day give the public a much better explanation of the facts about Ploesti. They skim over the problems that were created by the wrong turn by the 376th but also the failure of our Air Force personnel to obtain more data about the German defenses prior to Ploesti.

Bob Sternfels

Steve and all


Before his flight into Ploesti , Baker said to his mates that the target must be destroyed at all cost no matter what, because otherwise the " men " need to return next day for it and he himself would go into the target with the plane should this action spare a next mission.

As a matter of fact and regretfully, 60% of output left at the damaged refineries and 100% of the undamaged ones which were not located near Ploesti nor Bucharest haven't crippled in 1943 neither the Whermacht nor the Lufwaffe on any fronts nor the axis.... The Allied propaganda was telling partial stories however the secret Recon footages of the RAF Musquitos were telling completly an other story.

Worst of all ,many more aircrews and pilots of the 15th AF, RAF would be lost on the follow up missions until Ploesti was totally brought to silence. I recommend to everybody to read the book "FROM DARKNESS To LIGHT" of P.McDonald on the RAF Bomber Command losses over Ploesti and Rumania till August 8,1944 ( he used to be the UK military attaché in Rumania until late 80's) and distinctively showed the low impact TW had on German and Axis war machinery in 1943.

As Bob described given the wrong turn wasn’t there also the 376th would have been equally hit...I still tend to believe that the effect of surprise would have been preserved and TW outcome would have other than the one we know............all we need is a time machine , I know where I would be !

A WING AND A PRAYER was produced some 15 yrs ago by Spike Productions in Salt Lake City and won Rocky Mountain Emmy Award Winner .

Steve what did u do at RCAF ?

Best Regards
Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 09, 2005 11:37 pm

Alex,

You nailed it perfectly. From my interviews with Compton, one on one
type,he was very positive that he alone made the error in navigation PLUS
getting approval from Ent to alter the Ploesti Master plan and strike
targets of opportunity. He was firm on this point so anything else that has
been said about the reasons for what happened has to be fabricated. Thanks
for your imput so together we might change some of the invented theories
about the TRUE history regarding the Low Level Ploesti.


----- Original Message -----

Bob

Needless to say that I fully agree with you. I am kind of mystified over the various 2nd A.D interviews on Walts VHS footage stating that one of the Comptons wrong turn cause, could have been the heavy brass on its flight deck...which allow me to discard it as pure nonsense. Compton had vitamin P even prior getting to Benghazi and I disagree that the distraction could have played a role on the wrong turn....of which later on both Ent and Compton managed to stay immune for their rest of their AF carrer.

While Smart gave interviews , I haven't seen any historical work and anything at Compton ends commemorating the TW heroes. The slogans such " If nobody comes back, the results will be worth the cost " or like " Target is Primary Return is Secondary " that may have worked for Ent for PR purposes, who salvoed unarmmed bombs on trains and irrelevant targets rather than on their own designated target ...and this while flying way EAST of their assigned target .

In reality the mission was flown with inadequate Intel about the German/Rumanian A/A defense status,ARR readiness ,deep underestimation of the enemy and unlike Col.Smart idea....they flew to Ploesti counting on luck rather than surprise the well prepared enemy. On that context for quite a long time 15th confused the IAR-80 with FW-190 and this detail didnt improve later either...as was confused by the Foggia fighters with an Itaian origin fighter.

What still mystifies me after 63 years is given the magnitude and coverage of that operation, throughout the years no one at USAF and US Government level would ever admit the fault in planning and conducting this Kamikaze type of operation which unnecessarily whipped out so many aircrew lives ,and all for a 40% output reduction at Ploesti, which didn't really cripple the Whermacht, nor the Axis nor the Rumanins ...On the aftermath those who kept their mouth closed got promoted faster they expected ( case Ramsey Potts) , the other remained Colonels forever despite winning the Honour medal, heroes and pilots like J.Palm,Anderson , have vanished in the time without trace,Walt would get his DFSC only 50 years later, Compton would go as far as deputy SAC and years later would sign posters together with Adolph Galland,Bill Clinton and my old friend Col.R.Morgan ( god bless him)...etc.

Nevertheless, thanks to us on here,also this forum too, primarily Dan Melinte, we keep the memories of those who weren't as fortunate as Compton and Ent alive.

Alex

Alex -

I was in the USAF. I was a radio technician, from 1972 'till 1993, from the Vietnam war until after Desert Storm. I retired as a Master Sergeant.

Thanks for your inputs to the discussion. My family had two friends on Tidal Wave (376 BG and 398 BG). I didn't know them, they were Mom & Dad's friends -- OLD people! (One was Earl Zimmerman's navigator. Both were interned in Turkey.) I've also met one guy who was on Tidal Wave. He died a little over a year ago. And I still keep in touch with my mom's cousin, who bombed Ploesti several times in the summer of 1944. I'm always amazed at the stories.

Oh, and I got a copy of "A Wing and A Prayer" about ten years ago. Fascinating film. I still enjoy watching it.


-- Steve Smith in NM

Bob, I agree it would be nice to know exactly where the "16,000 feet"
mythology got started. Here are some clues. On page 83 of AAFRH-3, it reads:

"Soon after leaving the coast, the formation encountered very heavy cumulus
clouds from 10,000 to 15,000 feet and lowering. Over Yugoslavia the clouds
started settling in until there was only about a thousand feet of visibility over
mountains which towered in some instances as high as from 8,000 to 8,500
feet. Under these adverse conditions the formation spread out, even within
sections. The unity of the formation was destroyed when the 98th Group lost sight
of the leading element of the force, consisting of the 376th and 93rd Groups.
After losing the forward element once, the 98th Group subsequently regained
contact. According to Colonel Kane, the advanced unit was at that time about 30
miles to the left of the prescribed course and several thousand feet higher
than the 98th, which was flying at 14,000 feet and leading the two remaining
groups through the towering cumulus clouds. Unity was definitely lost, however,
within 200 miles of the Danube, when cloud formations were encountered, which
could neither be penetrated nor avoided by flying around them. Unlike the
two advanced groups which flew over the clouds, the 98th Group, followed by the
44th and 389th, deemed it necessary to descend and fly under them."

Then-Colonel Jacob Smart conducted most of the interviews for AAFRH-3. The
above section is footnoted thusly:

"According to Colonel Smart (Smart Interview), the 98th flew at a slower
speed. Colonel Kane states positively that the speed was not reduced."

Bob, it seems to me that Col. Smart, Col. Kane, or one of their stenographers
was in error when the figure of 14,000 feet was recorded. Kane was actually
flying at about 10,000 according to Whalen's logs. Later on, somebody
probably took the 14,000 figure, added a couple thousand feet to it (as indicated in
AAFRH-3), and came up with a figure of 16,000 feet for the 376th. This figure
turns up in Dugan & Stewart, 1st edition, page 96-97. The "tail wind"
explanation for the Mission Gap also appears on page 97 of D&S. As you can imagine, once the D&S book was published, the "winds at altitude" myth became
enshrined as fact; many crewmen who were on the mission figured it had to be true, and repeated the assertion when discussing TW.

I recommend that all interested parties read Rick Behnke's Word-format
version of AAFRH-3, currently posted in the "files" section of the TW site. It is
easily searchable and most useful.

Best wishes,
Al S.

I am posting two photos of the JOSEY BOUNCE

The photos posted are post-raid shots that show Utah Man after it was taken over by Loren Koon and renamed Joisey Bounce. The Duchess is next and that's Bomerang next to it. Note the RAF flash has been repainted also.

( details supplied by Pat Schenk)

Maxwell AFB

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 15, 2005 06:11 am

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Below it's a picture from a friend of mine with TW sand B-24 1/24 scale model from a contest at Pucioasa village ( north of Targoviste). Unfortunetly i don't know yet the name of the builder.

The author of the plane is Ianos Bokor and some friend of him from a modelist club from Brasov.

[QUOTE]Below it's a picture from a friend of mine with TW sand B-24 1/24 scale model from a contest at Pucioasa village ( north of Targoviste). Unfortunetly i don't know yet the name of the builder.

The author of the plane is Ianos Bokor and some friend of him from a modelist club from Brasov.

Josey Bounce

Maxwell AFB


PS : Horia be aware that there are no photo attachments to your post

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 15, 2005 06:11 am

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Very nice Merv!

Your Hughes aircraft looks very authentic to me. The tail matches the one
photographed at the crash site and the fuselage insignia is the smaller
insignia that doesn't overlap the waist window, minus any bar or circle, as
I would expect it to be. The only technical item I can see is that the
cheek window on this aircraft would have had the all in one style frame of
the late B-24D's. If the kit didn't have that though I would imagine that
would be very difficult to create.

I only wish I could build models 1/10 as well as the ones you have there. I
am in awe of people who do that. Thanks for sharing the pictures with us.

Question for you model building and ultra-detail types...has anyone
pinpointed the exact serial number where the tail fin serial numbers started
being high on the tail instead of in the middle? It is in the 42-406xx
range somewhere, but I don't have it much closer than that. Since several
389th BG aircraft fall in that range, I am interested to know for accuracy
sake. I notice that on the recent profile posted of Jose Carioca, the
artist has the serial for this aircraft (42-40617) in the middle of the fin.

Regards,

Chris

Merv, I thought maybe I should post also your WingDinger modelas well on this forum

Alex

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Merv, I am posting your Ole Kickapoo of Hughes

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 15, 2005 06:23 am

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Mervs WASH TUB's


Alex

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Alex, the picture wich Horia add some info was posted by me in a previous post.

Dan.

PS: I attached again that picture.

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