SMG's used by Romanian army

I think this equipment was ceded by German units on the front as well, they were not transported from country.

I wouldn't give so much credit to MMN, especially before '89, as I have discovered huge mistakes in their photographs bank. For example, some 120mm mortars were given as AA artillery

I believe recently they had done a real effort to build up reliable information, but I have the impression that before '89 the drafts were sent to typography without much revising.

If a Model 1896 Mauser, it might be the "Schnellfeuer" variant. This used 10- and 20- round detachable magazines, although it could also be reloaded with the magazine in place using typical Mauser stripper clips.

It was capable of fully automatic fire (like a SMG); there is a photograph of one with a shoulder stock attached in:

"Famous Pistols and Handguns" ed. by A.J.R. Cormack, Arco Publishing, Inc. NY 1983

Astra of Spain also made similar pistols. Were there any commercial contacts with Spanish arms manufacturers?

Best,
Diego

The Mauser SMG is indeed the Schnellfeuer pictured in the brochure( a C96 with full auto switch)
The Deimler Puch- Steyr is the MP40
The MP41 is the woodstock version of MP40 made By Haenel( the "Schmeisser Patent" mark on the receiver of MP41s conducted to the false name Schmeisser atributed to MP40s)

So Cristian, the one with the wooden stock is MP 41 (Schmeisser), and the Daimler-Puch-Steyr in MP 40? I thought it was the other way around, and in the book I was talking about (“Istoria militara a poporului roman”) the SMG with wooden stock was presented as Daimler-Puch-Steyr model 1940. For me this would also make sense because not only in the brochure you are talking about but also according to many other sources the MP 40 (the common folding stock version) is (incorrectly) named Schmeisser 41.

On the other hand, we've seen what Dragos said about how some Romanian military history publications was elaborated before 1989. I did not find to many documentary mistakes in the mentioned book (though a lot of ideological bullshit), but I have to say that an internet source confirms your version:

SOURCE - http://www.deactivated-guns.co.uk/detail/mp41.htm

"German MP41 sub machine gun designed by Hugo Schmeisser as a higher quality selective fire alternative to the MP40... This is the rarest world war II sub machine gun."

I also insist that the “Deimler-Puch-Steyr” as it was written in the brochure is in fact DAIMLER-Puch-Steyr. The MP patent was joint produced (among other manufacturers) by the Daimler concern with the Austrian weapon manufacturer Steyr – hence the name.

On the page indicated above you’ll also find a couple of very good quality pictures with a well conserved MP 41 (according to them).

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 07, 2005 04:46 pm

You can find an image of the the Mauser C 96 model 712 (full automatic version, manufactured since 1932), used by the Romanian paratroopers from 1941 to 1943, at this page: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg90-e.htm

It could use 10 and 20 rounds removable magazines (also according to some sources 25 rounds magazines). We can presume that the paratroopers used the weapon together with the wooden attachable stock, and most probably along with the ZB 24 (meaning a rifle AND a pistol, and not a rifle OR a pistol). I don't know if each soldiers in a platoon caried both a ZB rifle and a Mauser mod. 32 pistol, or only some of them...

On that page, you can also see an earlier C 96 version with the wooden stock attached. At some models it was also used as a holster.

And a few words about Mauser C 96, compiled from the internet. It was the first automatic pistol (entered production in 1896, 7,63 mm, 10 rounds magazine); nicknamed "broomhandle" from the shape of its handle. It was considered an accurate gun and outranged many contemporary pistols. It could be used together with an attachable stock/holster - a sort of combination between a pistol and a rifle. Latest versions includes an option for full automatic fire (hence the name "Scnellfeuer" or "Machinepistolen")

I don't know if there were any contracts with the Spanish Astra manufacturer, but I tend to think that the small number of Mausers needed from the parachute batalion were purchased from Germany or directly from the German army stock.

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 07, 2005 10:52 pm

I think this equipment was ceded by German units on the front as well, they were not transported from country.

I don't know if it was the case of the T3s and T4s received by the 1st Armoured Division. I've seen some pictures with these tanks deliverd in the autunm of 1942 (some of them are also on this site) and they didn't wear any markings or insignia and no camouflage (as was the case of the Pz IVs delivered in 1944 from the 23rd Panzer Division) - their colour were grey but not "feldgrau" I think. It seems to me that those pictures were taken in the country when the tanks were received form the German factories and before being sent to the combat units.
Howewer, if the frontline divisions got some of their equipment directly from the German army without being reorganized, I don't think this is an valid argument that they did not (could not) receive equipment form the army suppliers from Romania too.

And about these other two less known models, you can see some pictures of them here:

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/submachg/armsmg2.htm

Notice the place for the removable magazine on the side - like the British Sten gun.


Maby all these models will be included in a future site update for the weapons section.

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 07, 2005 04:56 pm

We are talking about panzers or SMGs?

SMGs Cristian, sorry if the discussion kind of slipped off-topic. But the problem with the Romanian panzers was discussed as an example for how the imported new equipment was delivered to the Romanian combatant troops before 1943, directly to the front line or was send in Romania before. And apparently there was not a rule…

Cristian, you have PM.

So ,what info we have for sure : Romanians used the
- Beretta Mod.1938 SMG cal 9mm Para
- Mauser mod.712 Schnellfeuer cal 7,63 Mauser( wich is the fullauto version of C96 made starting 1932)
-MP 40, the standard german SMG with folding stock cal 9mm Para( named in the era by the romanians Steyr- Deimler Puch because germans made the first series of MP40 at Steyr plant ,and soon after to Erma and Haenel)
-MP 41 (the MP40 mechanics on a wooden stock- a regress to WWI designs) cal 9mm Para, made only by Haenel during 1941, and according to spanish revue ARMAS, allmost all of the production was send to Germany allies, Romania and Croatia(not mentioned the year)
The MP 18, MP 28,and the russian SMG, are mentioned and photographed only in my brochure,or there are other evidences that are used by the troops on a regular basis?
PS Brochure edited in 1942 by
MONITORUL OFICIAL SI IMPRIMERIILE STATULUI
IMPRIMERIA CENTRALA
BUCURESTI

Cristian, I think your brochure is very important and it brings forth a lot of new info. Until you shared this info with us we couldn’t find out anything sure about the SMGs in use in the Romanian army until the end of 1942/1943. Also we had some false perceptions about the year when Beretta 38, MP 40 and Orita entered in use. I think there’s no reason for not trusting an official publication of the Romanian state (“Monitorul Oficial”); actually this makes it more trustworthy than some history books published decades later.

So, I think there’s no valid reason to question IF the MP 18 I and the MP 28 II (along with some Russian captured SMGs) were in use.
What we still have to find out is:
- when entered the service the first SMGs and what models (in the Romanian army)
- who used them (what kind of troops and what ranks)
- what models were this fist SMG’s and in what quantity
- AKA the whole situation of the SMGs in the Romanian army until 1942, starting from what we found out from Cristian’s brochure

Any veterans’ memories/interviews which could help (until now or in the future)? Dragos, Victor…?

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 08, 2005 06:20 pm

The discussion about tanks will continue here:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1930