T3 & T4

Hello folks,

I've just two questions about the T3's and the T4's in Romanian Service...


As I've found here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=240 the eleven delivered T3's were all Type N with the short barrelled 75mm L24. Were those eleven T3's all T3-Tanks Romania got from Germany? I'm asking because here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=246 it is said, that Romania placed an order of 150 T3's and T4's and 56 pieces of TA (Sturmgeschütz III/G). Further it is said, that Romania recievied 110 T4's by August 1944. Does this mean, Romania did not recieve any more Panzer III, then those 11x T3's mentioned before?

It is said, that this T4's were types of Panzer IV/G, IV/H, IV/J and Panzer IV/F (but which one? The short barreled F1 or the first long barreled F2?). Has anybody detail informations about the composition of these T4 types?

Thanks for your help!

The 11 T.3s were received on the front, probably from German unit. No other T.3 was ever received afterwards, only T.4s.

The T.4Fs were of the F2 type or at least the couple of T.4s that survived the Stalingrad campaign were F2s.

If you know the subtype by production serial number, than we can easily identify the T.3s and T.4s received in 1942.

Hallo KameradSchnürschuh,
September 17, 1942 - the head of the German Military Mission in Romania, Major General Arthur Hauffe, announced the Romanian General Staff that following the meeting between General Ilie Steflea and the German Army Commander Schnelle Truppen Col. Krammer, from 16 September, from Fuhrer special order, the Romanian 1st Armored Division receives, for strengthening the action forces from the German Army, 11 medium tanks type T.3 with 75mm short gun, 11 medium tanks type T.4 with 75mm long gun, 9 antitank guns 50mm. and 9 antitank guns 75mm. with their towing vehicles. This material will be sent on September 21, 1942, with the training romanian detachment from Wunsdorf, Germany, directly to the Division on the front line, and will be taken over by the division in the railway station.
Some sources say that the tanks received by the Romanian Army were among those to reach the Afrika Korps, but because the situation of that front line, were redeployed to other theaters of operations. It is sure that the T.3 tanks were the N version, the question is only about the T.4 -were they type F2 of type G? Nobody is sure of it -we can only assume that some were F2, some were G, considering that both types were in production in sommer 1942.
The other 100 -110 tanks that Romania received from Germany were all T.4 type H and maybe type J -received from late 1943 onwards...

@Victor

Thank you, for your immediate answer about those T4 F2's

@Andreas

As far as I now understand, Romania recieved the T3's and T4's after Sept. 21st 1942 short before the fightings in and round Stalingrad? And this includes T4/F2 and T4/G types.
Ok, and later on, the rest of those 100-110 recieved T4's were these of those T4/H and T4/J types...

Thank you very much..

Another Question to these Antitank-Guns.

I read about Famo Towing Tractors, but the SdKfz.9 seems to big as towing tractor for those guns...Shouldn't it be SdKfz. 10 for the 5cm PaK 38 and SdKfz. 11 for the 7,5cm PaK 40, or were these PaK 97/38??? Or did they use Sdkfz. 250 or 251 for towing them? Romania did also recieve both of these types. Is there any information how many of those and which types of them (e.g. 251/B, 251/C or 251/D resp. 251/1, 251/2 etc.)

And how were those AT-Guns organized? I think that must have been a platoon with 3 sections to each 3 Guns, or?
So, at least one Platoon with 9x 5cm and one heavy AT-Platoon with 9x 7,5cm Guns. Is there any TO&E table about that?

Thank you

I've found some useful data for you in the book "Romanian Army 1941 - 1945", published in 1996.

According to this book, in the spring of 1943, the romanian Cavalry Corps (formed from 6 & 9th Cavalry divisions and 19th infantry division) was refitted with 20 x 150 mm Skoda howitzers, pulled by Hanomag halftracks; 84 x 75 mm Pak 97/38 anti-tank guns pulled by ROS-01 artillery tractors and 120 x 50 mm Pak 38 anti-tank guns.

Another fact mentioned in the book is that starting from 1943, the romanian anti-tank artillery was refitted with imported Pak 38, Pak 97/38, Pak 40 and different Sdkfz types.

According to the equipment tables also published in the book mentioned above, the romanian army used the following Sdkfz types: 250/1, 250/2, 250/3, 250/5, 250/6, 250/9, 251/1, 251/3, 251/4, 251/7, 251/9 and all the "Zugmaschine" types (from 1 to 18 tons).
Sadly, the lists don't give any numbers for the mentioned vehicles.

Romrail, If you look at February 1944 on the list in this link you'll find that 24 SdKfz 250 of various types were sent to Romania that month and that they were in tended for the Pz.Späh-Kp. c which had 16 x 250/9 and 9 x 250/5.



http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?p=160703#160703

Thank you for your reply. I'll try to search in the above mentioned book and see if I can find out which romanian unit received the vehicles that are mentioned on the list.

They were intended for the 1st Armored Division.

I agree with what you've said, but taking into account that the structure of the 1st Armored Division changed over the war years, I was wandering if we can determine the specific unit from the Division that received this vehicles.

Taking into account that the list posted by "Alanmccoubrey", the vehicles should have reached one of the following units: 1st Tank Regiment, 3rd or 4th Riders Regiment, 8th Pioneers Regiment or 1st Motorized Artillery Regiment, which formed the 1st Armored Division.

The Sdkfz 250s went to the Special Motorized Group and to the CIMM.

Now that I looked at the serial numbers listed here: http://panzerivuniverse.phelpscomputerservices.com/Specs.htm, it is clear that the tanks were of the G type.

Regarding the AT guns. It is a little confusing. You are interested in what vehicle was used to tow the AT guns of the 1st Armored Division in the 1942 campaign, in 1944 or what vehicles were used in general to tow AT guns?

Thank you very much for your Infos...

So, the Romanians got for the Panzerspäh-Kompanie c [K.St.N. 1162c v. 1.11.1943] = 9x Sd.Kfz. 250/5 und 16x Sd.Kfz. 250/9 24 pieces in February 1944 (but at least one piece would be missing, because 9 & 16 =25) and then they recieved another 16 pieces in May 1944 again for a Panzerspäh-Kompanie c [K.St.N. 1162c v. 1.11.1943] = 9x Sd.Kfz. 250/5 und 16x Sd.Kfz. 250/9 , which could be may meant, that they didn't have lost the previous sent SdKfz. 250's at all...? And all of these as I understand and Victor said, were used here The Sdkfz 250s went to the Special Motorized Group and to the CIMM.


@Victor...

So, there weren't any F2's sent to Romania as far as I now understand...

About the AT-Towing vehicles I was first interrested in general, but if you have detailed informations, it would be very fine...

Thanks a lot,

KS

Hallo KameradSchnürschuh,
I recently found a book, a technical manual with also interesting combat reports and other information -in german- Panzer IV und seine abarten written by Walter J Spielberger, Hilary L Doyle, Thomas L. Jentz, 2010 published, where, at page 291, I found a detailed calendar of the Pz.IV deliveries during the war. According to this Romania received 11 Panzer IV G in september 1942 and -a list - from november 1943 to august 1944 other 127 Panzer IV H -like this :
november 1943 - 4 vehicles, after 20 november,
december 1943 - 24 vehicles, 28-30 december,
january 1944 - 19 vehicles, 04-06 january
february 1944 - 2 vehicles -command -after 26 february,
march 1944 - 15 vehicles - after 6 april
april 1944 - 15 vehicles -after 11 may,
may 1944 - 15 vehicles - after 02 june,
june 1944 - 15 vehicles -after 04 july
july 1944 - 3 vehicles -command vehicles -after 26 july
august 1944 - 15 vehicles -after 14 august.
I hope it helps!

Hello Andreas,

Off topic, but important for me.

Does the book mention the Pz. IV deliveries to Hungary as well?
If yes, I'd appreciate if you'd contact me directly with the info.

Thanks,

Gen. Dénes

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2567081010104778471sDgehH

I'm currently trying to write on wikipedia about the Romanian armored vehicles during WW2 and it's very frustrating. Look at that picture. I thought that there were only 11 T-3 tanks (Ausf. N) delivered, but this picture is very confusing. That's an Ausf. J T-3 tank with Romanian crew in 1944. Plus a short-barreled Ausf. C T-4. Somewhere in this book I read about two extra T-3 tanks, different from the original 11 units batch. I can't seem to find the paragraph right now.

Please note that I have the original book (bought it from Ferdinand Museum in Bucharest) and it's not my upload.