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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army > Romanian anti-tank guns in 1941? |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 28, 2006 12:34 pm |
| Hi Dear All! Efficiency of the Romanian anti-tank guns in 1941. In 1941 the Romanian infantry had problems in struggle against the Soviet tanks. I think this fact to challenge difficultly. Did not suffice ATG. I think, that destroyed Soviet armour were exposed to studying from the Romanian military experts. What Romanian ATG in June-October, 1941 were the most effective against the Soviet tanks? Whether there Is any statistics concerning destroyed Romanian trooppen in June-October, 1941 of tanks T-34? Documents of archive speak something about number of the Soviet tanks destroyed by Romanians in 1941? I am grateful for any information. I did not see, that this theme here was discussed. Excuse for my poor English. My Romanian is even poorer. So happens when during a life you learn 10 or 12 foreign languages. All well to learn it is impossible. Regards. Alex. |
| Posted by: Florin October 29, 2006 04:33 am |
| Possible the closest topic to yours, in this forum, right here under "Romanian Army", was under this link: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=3309 |
| Posted by: sid guttridge October 29, 2006 08:25 am |
| Hi Yeeliseenko, The Romanians appear not to have encountered any T34s in 1941. The T34s (and KVs) seem to have been used only on the German fronts further north. The Romanians used a variety of Bofors, Bohler, Breda and Schneider 37mm and 47mm anti-tank guns that were of adequate international standard for these calibres and certainly capable of dealing with the most common BT and T26 Soviet light tanks encountered in 1941. However, in 1941 there were not enough light anti-tank guns to adequately equip the whole army. In March 1941 the Romanian Army had only 40% of its establishment of 60mm mortars, 60% of 81mm mortars, 70% of 37mm of anti-tank guns, 40% of 47mm anti-tank guns and 20% of light anti-aircraft guns. This was a major reason why Romania could only use about half its army against the USSR in the summer of 1941. However, those divisions that did serve in 1941 were largely up to establishment and seem to have had similar numbers of light anti-tank guns to other armies. There was still a shortage of light anti-tank guns in 1942, so the Romanian cavalry was equipped with captured Soviet 45mm AT guns as their standard weapon. Real problems arose later in 1942 because T34s began to appear opposite the Romanians before the Germans were able to supply enough 75mm anti-tank guns to deal with them. This was a major reason for the Romanian disasters on the flanks at Stalingrad. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 29, 2006 08:57 am | ||
Hi, Sid. I think that already in the beginning of July, 1941 1DB has met the first Soviet heavy tanks. It were KV (2 Mechanized Corps). 1DB had loss of 1 or 2 tanks R-2. I have no doubts that Romanians met and Т-34 2 MC. Possibly struggle against them was very complex. But also the Red army experienced difficulties with struggle against the Romanian tanks put from France. 45 mm the anti-tank gun could punch their armour only in rare cases. Regards. Alex. |
| Posted by: Victor October 29, 2006 06:18 pm |
| I don't think any official statistic of tank kills by Romanian AT guns exists. At the end of 1941, a report of the 1st Armored Division concluded that the 47 mm Bohler ATG was adequate for dealing with the Soviet tanks encountered. However, it met the heavier tanks of the 2nd MC for a short while and had both numerical superiority and powerful artillery support. The 25 mm Puteaux ATG was deemed as adequate against non-armored vehicles. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge October 30, 2006 01:45 pm |
| Hi Yeliseenko, I seem to recall that the Romanians encountered T28 (?) heavy tanks in Basarabia/Moldova in 1941. There is, I think, a picture of a knocked out T28. I have not heard before that they met any KVs in 1941. Do you have a source for this? T34s were rare in 1941 and I have never seen any evidence that the Romanians met any that year. Do you have a source? Cheers, Sid. P.S. If you go to the appenices of the "Meltyukhov" site on the internet it will tell you the exact distribution of Soviet armour in June 1941. I suspect that there will be no T34s opposite Romania. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 30, 2006 03:08 pm | ||
Hi Sid! In Bessarabia was not Soviet Т-28. There there were tanks 2 MC. It had no Т-28. It had 10 KV-1. Romanians could meet T-28 later. Some information on this theme arrived from Victor. The Odessa military district on June, 21st renamed into Southern front had much Т-34. So 11 TD 2 MC had 50 T-34. The information arrives from Evgenie Drig - the best expert on history mechanized corps Red Army. Much Т-34 was lost in fights under Berdichev. But before them could meet Romanian troopen. I need detailed elaboration of fighting way D1B. If I had such information - I could compare the Romanian and Soviet data. Battle in Bessarabia still requires studying. As well as fights the Romanian in July-October, 1941. It is necessary to compare with the Soviet and Romanian sources. While anybody in details has not studied it. Regards. Alex. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 30, 2006 03:18 pm | ||
I have all data Michael Meltjuhov. They arrive RGASPI-archive. Here figures for June, 1st 1941. The Odessa military district: KV-10 T-34 - 50 T-28 - 0 T-35 - 0 Any Т-28 and Т-35. There is not reflected a problem of tanks (old), was in the Strengthened areas (UR) in Bessarabia. It is not solved a question and on "sea" tanks - tanks of navy fleet in Odessa. Whether it were known they. Alex. |
| Posted by: Victor October 30, 2006 07:51 pm |
| On 4 July the 1st Battalion/1st Tank Regiment counterattacked the Soviet armored formation that had overrun the positions of the German 203rd Infantry Regiment. The attack, backed by the 1st Motorized Artillery Regiment, pushed back the Soviet tanks and regained the lost ground by nightfall. The 1st Tank Regiment claimed that two Soviet heavy tanks were knocked out and abandoned on the field. During the night they were probably towed by Soviet repair crews. The Romanian side lost one tank due to friendly fire. On 5 July, 3 R-2s went to invetigate an apparently abandoned Soviet heavy tank in a ravine, reported by the German infantry, and were caught in an ambush by 5 to 6 Soviet tanks. One Romanian tank was destroyed and the other two retreated. The term used by col. Emilian Ionescu (CO 1st TR) in the report was "heavy tanks" (care grele). I doubt they were T-28. Rather a KV. |
| Posted by: PanzerKing October 30, 2006 08:01 pm |
| Do you have any other short accounts of tank battles Victor? It is very interesting. I like to read about Romanian tank actions because there's not a lot out there. Do you have any other short accounts of tank battles Victor? |
| Posted by: sid guttridge October 31, 2006 11:21 am |
| Hi Yeliseenko, You are right. Odessa Military district possessed 10 KVs and 50 T34s on 1 June. However, all were in 11th Tank Division of 2nd Mechanised Corps. 11th Tank Division apparently saw very little combat in the first weeks of the war. At the time it was withdrawn on 10 July in order to be transferred north to face the main German thrusts it had had only three tanks hit and still possessed all 10 KVs, 46 T34s and numerous lighter tanks. I have no map of 11th Tank Division's deployments in the first week of July 1941, but it is entirely possible that it only clashed lightly with the German 11th Army and not with the Romanians at all. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 31, 2006 02:56 pm |
| Hi! From whom then loss the Romanian tanks have had? It arrives from Evgenie Drig's book (MC RKKA): On July, 4th together with parts 48 Rifle corps, 2 MC participated in counterattack on Kosteshti.16 a tank division has seized villages of Borgenei-Noi and Sturdzeni. But in general counterattack success had no. The opponent "has held down" actions MC. As a result 2 MC has passed to defense. On July, 6th 2 MC defended: 11 TD - hill 238 Nikoreny 16 TD - hill.252 Farm Ramazan 15 MD - to the south Барабой. I do not know any other heavy tanks in this area. Probably Romanians have met KV, a T-34. Victor, in Romania official history D1B is published? Regards. Alex. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge October 31, 2006 05:06 pm |
| Hi Alex, Where is "this area"? I don't have a good enough map of Basarabia/Moldova with me. The only part of 2nd Mechanised Corps that seems likely to have come into contact with Romanian armour is 15MD, which apparently mounted a local counter-attack towards Kishinev/Chisinau in mid July. It had no T34s or KVs. You must bear in mind that half the Axis divisions invading Basarabia were German. The Germans were to the north of Kishinev/Chisinau and made the deepest advances. There was plenty of combat in Basarabia in which no Romanians took part. Had the Romanians been attacked by KVs and/or T34s in 1941 there was virtually nothing the Romanians could have done to stop them. Such tanks would have made an enormous impression, but there seems to be no trace of them from either Romanian sources or the 11th German Army in northern Basarabia. The working assumption must be that neither type was encountered by Romanians in Basarabia until positive evidence is found to that effect. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 31, 2006 06:02 pm |
| Info 318 page from the Czech encyclopedia of tanks. In it it is spoken that together with Germans D1B has reached Mogilyev-Podolsky UR (the Strengthened area) approximately on Jule, 2nd. Further it is written that Romanians have collided with tanks T-28. Having lost Romanians have one tank, captured 2 Т-28. Regards. Alex. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko October 31, 2006 06:30 pm |
| Page czech book. http://dump.ru/files/6/604900522/ 418 KB. |
| Posted by: Victor October 31, 2006 08:32 pm | ||
The 1st Armored Division was subordinated to the German 11th Army in Bessarabia and the encounter with the Soviet "heavy tanks" (described as such in the official reports, like I already mentioned) was on 4 and 5 July, before the 11th TD was sent to the front near Uman. In fact, the Soviet tanks had overran German, not Romanian positions. The 1st Tank Battalion was used for a counterattack. If the 11th TD was active in Northern Bessarabia in that time interval it is possible for elements of the two units to meet in this specific combat. |
| Posted by: saudadesdefrancesinhas October 31, 2006 08:33 pm |
| Just out of interest, when did the Romanian forces capture the two T28s that were placed in the square in Bucharest? Was this later in the campaign? Also, were there many 25mm anti tank guns in the Romanian army? I have not seen them mentioned before. |
| Posted by: Yeliseenko November 01, 2006 02:17 pm | ||||
Victor! I shall cite data in what "points" was 2 MC. on July, 4-6th. 4 JULE Counterstroke on Kostesti ---------------------------- Fights - Bratseni, Mosen Defensive fights - Oknul-Alb, Michaleni, Roskani, Tyrk. 5 JULE Michaleni, Oknul-Alb, Rakaria - 6-00 - morning 6 JULE 11 TD - Nikoreni ------------------- I shall repeat a question. Whether history D1B is published? Whether Romanians had fights with the Soviet tanks on June, 25th in area Petresti? This day 11TD Has lost 7 tanks. Regards Alex |
| Posted by: Victor November 01, 2006 08:38 pm | ||
4 July - "Bratseni" is very similar to "Bratuseni". There is a book about the 1st Armored Division in WW2 published some years ago by the Army's publishing house, but I do not have it and it's not available for sale. There is another one about the entire history of Romanian armor, which I have. Hopefully, in a couple of years there will also be a new book, in English, on which me and dragos03 are working on. I found only a mention of a tank attack on 24 June at Badarai and Sculeni where ttroops from the Romanian 8th Infantry Division and the German 198th Infantry Division held a bridgehead over the Prut. Maybe the 2nd MC's attack on 25 June was made against German positions. |
| Posted by: Victor November 01, 2006 08:45 pm | ||
Hard to say exactly when. It definately happened during 1941, because in 1942 the remaining T-28s were concentrated in Northern part of the Eastern Front. According to a discussion I had on this subject on AHF, the 18th MC received 5 T-28s at the end of July. Maybe siome of these T-28s eventually ended up in the Ukraine where they were captured by Romanian troops. The 1st Armored Division used 25 mm AT guns in the 1941 campaign, but found them of little use against tanks, like I already said. Furthermore, they had to be carried by trucks, as it was almost impossible to tow them at speeds higher than 6 km/h. |
| Posted by: dragos November 01, 2006 09:51 pm |
| There is one picture at the history museum of Buzau (not exhibited, but in the storehouse) with Romanian soldiers examining a T-28 hull. It may have been captured in the area operations of the 8th Infantry Regiment Buzau in 1941. |
| Posted by: saudadesdefrancesinhas November 01, 2006 10:33 pm |
| The Slovaks also had some T28s that they captured at some time in 1941, I remember reading that the Germans did not allow them to display them. I will look up the reference. The T28 seems to have been a favourite captured tank for displays, possibly because it is very impressive looking. Is it possible that the Romanians were given some by the Germans specifically to put on display? Or that they found them in a depot, or in a railway terminus etc. as they had run out of fuel? I have a question about the uniform of the motorised infantry, but I will put up another post. The British Army also carried it's 25mm guns in the backs of trucks because of the towing problems. |
| Posted by: YAN March 14, 2011 03:27 pm |
| When the larger anti-tank guns came available (50mm pak 38 75mm pak 40 & 75mm resita) were the lighter 37mm & 47mm used as infantry guns. |
| Posted by: Mircea87 March 16, 2011 09:41 am |
| They were still used as AT guns, the 37&47 mm calibers have a rather small HE shell, I see no point in using them as infantry guns as the army was already short on AT guns (the larger AT guns were never in sufficient numbers). |
| Posted by: YAN March 16, 2011 11:23 am |
| Thanks Mircea, it must of been dreadful facing T-34/85 with 37mm Bofors anti-tank guns but if its all you have got thats it. |
| Posted by: cristianaliatul August 07, 2011 07:29 pm |
| de ce toti vorbesc engleza |
| Posted by: YAN August 25, 2011 03:38 pm |
| Because I am English, and I dont speak Romanian, is it a big deal for you. |