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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army > Defeat of a Romanian unit on front 1941-1945 |
| Posted by: ocoleanui May 14, 2009 07:21 am |
| Excluding Stalingrad battle , in what fight do you know a defeat of a Romanian unit ?! I mention first defeat of 3rd Dorobanti Regiment and 1st Tank Regiment in 18 August 1941 at Karpova . Second ,is surrender of 4th Infantry Division (!) at Szolnok . |
| Posted by: MMM May 14, 2009 08:58 am |
| Well, I've read in Liddell Hart's book about ww2, that a Romanian mountain division has "failed" in Caucasus in autumn 1942. Does anybody know what was that about? |
| Posted by: dragos May 14, 2009 10:29 am | ||
What kind of question is that?  If you want a list down to battalion level, then there would be dozens of cases. Why should someone spend his time for this? |
| Posted by: dragos May 14, 2009 10:45 am | ||
Perhaps 3rd Mountain Division? |
| Posted by: MMM May 14, 2009 12:55 pm |
| Yes, that division was there, but where did it fail? |
| Posted by: dragos May 14, 2009 01:30 pm |
| 29 September. General Radu Falfanescu was dismissed due to the failure of the 3rd Mountain Division, in his place being appointed general Leonard Mociulski. The battalion remains in close contact with the enemy, in the following disposal: the 2nd Company (captain Cristea) in the right, the 1st Company (lieutenant Lucian Ionescu) in the center, the Reconnaissance Company (2nd lieutenant Constantin Nicolescu) in the left, in contact with the German 116th Infantry Regiment, and the 3rd Company, less one platoon, in the reserve. One platoon is deployed between the 1st and the 2nd companies. From here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?article=104 |
| Posted by: MMM May 14, 2009 02:44 pm |
| I'll search in Piteşti (Military Archives) this summer for more details - if the division's own report mentions what the failure was... |
| Posted by: dragos May 14, 2009 09:29 pm |
| Well, the failure was obviously the inability to achieve the objectives during the offensive stage. However, in the defensive stage afterward the unit performed admirably. |
| Posted by: Victor May 16, 2009 04:08 pm | ||
As Dragos said, the 3rd Mountain Division was assigned the task to attack the flank of the Soviet 47th Army and capture the port of Gelendzhik. The offensive took place between 19-22 September and the 3rd Mountain Division advanced 6 km in the positions of the 216th Rifle Division. Several days later, the Soviets counterattacked with the 77th Rifle Division and two marine brigades that recaptured the lost ground. |
| Posted by: contras January 09, 2010 06:47 pm |
| I think the first defeat of a Romanian unit on front was in July 1941, at Tiganca bridgehead, where a division was defeated near Cania, I don't remeber which one division. This defeat obliged the nearby units to make biggest efforts, with important costs, to restore the front line. |
| Posted by: contras January 09, 2010 07:30 pm | ||
I think it was Div 35 Inf. |
| Posted by: dragos January 09, 2010 10:42 pm |
| A relatively small scale but sounding defeat took place on June 26 when the Soviet forces attacked Pardina and Chilia Veche, defended by Romanian 15th Marine Infantry Battalion. The Romanian unit retreated, losing in the process 11 officers, 13 NCOs and 334 soldiers (mainly prisoners) and most of the armament (12 artillery pieces, 12 machine-guns, 36 light machine-guns, 475 rifles, 119 side arms). The following days, from the remains of the battalion it could hardly be raised up a company of 100 men. |
| Posted by: Victor January 10, 2010 07:34 am | ||||
The 35th Reserve infantry Division was indeed defeated in July, but it had no connection with the fighting at Tiganca. For more details,see here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=5 |
| Posted by: MMM January 16, 2010 07:03 pm |
| @Dragos: given the disproportion between the attacking forces and the Romanian defenders, it was more of a retreat than a sound defeat... @victor: it is unfair to blame the whole 35-th Division for what many authors consider an unfortunate and incompetent decision - if we're discussing the "Varzaresti" episode in early july. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS January 24, 2010 06:13 pm |
| Hallo, The defeat of the the 2nd and 4th Romanian Mountain Brigades of the 3rd Romanian Army in the Nogai Steppe battle, on the northern coast of Azov (September 25 to October 3, 1941), could be another exemple. The soviet offensive was finally crushed after the intervention of the 49th Mountain Corps from the German 11th Army, from the south and the German 1st Panzer Group from the north. It is however true that the soviets had a categorical numerical and technical superiority over the romanian-german forces in the area. |
| Posted by: Victor January 25, 2010 09:36 am |
| Actually the battle in the Nogaisk Steppe doesn't fit the scenario. The Soviets did not manage either rout or destroy the Romanian units, which overall stood firm, despite being encircled by Soviet armor. Without their determined resistance, the intervention of the German 49th Mountain Corps and, more importantly, of the German 1st Panzer Group, would not have had the same devastating effect. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS January 25, 2010 11:28 pm |
| Hallo Victor, My intervention at issue was based totally on the text and the map attached - subject The battle of the Sea of Azov, from the book -The Romanian Armed Forces in World War II - published by the National Military Museum, Archives Department of the General Staff, Meridiane Publishing House, Bucharest, 1995. Quote from that text - "The fights reached the highest intensity during 27 to 29 September, when the soviet forces came off victorious in breaking the German-Romanian Front in several places. The situation was straightened out by arresting the offensive towards Crimea and by bringing back the german 49. Mountain Corps on the front to the North of Sea of Azov, on the left flank of the romanian Mountain Corps." The text is longer but it is clear that the romanian brigades (nr.2 and 4.) and a german infantry division (nr.170) were beaten by the Soviets, and only the intervention of the german forces (49. Corps and SS-Division (mot.) LAH) restored the situation on the front line. But I don't intend to deny what you say, because this defeat was surely not decisive... |
| Posted by: raevski January 26, 2010 11:21 pm | ||
How do i get a copy of that book, and does it have an English version? |
| Posted by: Victor January 27, 2010 07:26 am | ||
The book you mentioned is mostly a photo album. It does not really go in depth on the battle. I have been planning on updating the article on the website to include more details. The text is not actually that clear. The front was broken mostly by armored spearheads, which could cause trouble behind the frontlines, but since they lacked the precious infantry support, because the dug in mountain troops held off the Soviet rifle divisions, the situation could not be compared to the Soviet breakthroughs of 1943-45. In 1941, the Red Army had still much to perfect its "deep battle" concept. The prompt intervention of Manstein and of the 1st Panzer Corps turned this potentially dangerous situation into a devastating victory. However, without the resistance of the supposedly "defeated" mountain brigades against the Soviet infantry, the encirclement would have failed, as would have the offensive into Crimea. But of course, all credit, as usual, goes to the Germans, because they had shinier uniforms and swooped down from the sky to bail out they inept allies.  |
| Posted by: ANDREAS January 27, 2010 09:15 pm |
| Yes Victor, but because in the other books I look to read more details about that battle I found only fewer details, less than in this book, and Manstein memories, including details about this battle, are manifestly unfavourable to romanian troops, I quoted from this book. And as I say the soviet victory was a short-term one, and soon turned into a defeat under the german troops actions. |