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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army > Regimental reconnaissance company |
| Posted by: Frozenlake September 29, 2012 02:37 pm |
| Hello everyone! This is my first post to this forum. My question is about the regimental reconnaissance company in infantry regiments of the Romanian Army. On page 42 in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally", there is a breakdown of a 1941 infantry division showing 8 LMG in the regimental reconnaissance company. Then, on page 77 there is a breakdown of the 5th, 6th and 13th infantry divisions from 1942 showing 16 LMG and 2 60 mm mortars in the regimental reconnaissance company. Presumably the other Echelon II infantry divisions had the same organization. The question is: Does anybody know how this equipment was distributed among the platoons and sections of the regimental reconnaissance company in 1941 and 1942 respectively? And what was the organization of that company, how many platoons, sections, people, etc? Thank you. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 06, 2012 04:28 pm |
| Okay, I guess my questions are a bit hard to answer. But I did more research and I found the following on the Internet: http://istorie-militara.blogspot.jp/2007/05/cauzele-pentru-care-armata-romana-n.html It is a report on the results of an investigation inquiring why the Romanian Army could not achieve a fast and easy victory at the siege of Odessa. One part of it comments on the regimental reconnaissance company, quoting in Romanian: "Compania de cercetare s-a dovedit a fi prea slab dotata cu armament automat. Nevoile operative au dus la intarirea ei cu un pluton de cercetasi calari si s-au dat pusti mitraliere." I dont speak Romanian so I used Google Translate to get a rough translation of the text. As you may know, Google Translate does not always provide correct translation in terms of grammar and words, so I had to modify the Google translation to what I think is a better English translation: "The reconnaissance company proved to be too weakly equipped with automatic weapons. The operational needs resulted in her strengthening with a cavalry platoon and machine guns." I would be very grateful if someone who speaks Romanian could confirm that. In the meantime it would appear that at some point after (or during?) the siege of Odessa the regimental reconnaissane company was strengthened by the addition of a cavalry platoon. And the number of machine guns in the company was incresed too, probably because of the organic machine guns of the newly added cavalry platoon, or probably because the number of machine guns in the other platoons was increased too. I would be happy to see your comments. |
| Posted by: Agarici October 06, 2012 06:46 pm |
| Frozenlake, the translation you used is an accurate one. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 06, 2012 07:33 pm |
| Thanks Agarici. I will continue to look for other sources as well. |
| Posted by: YAN October 12, 2012 11:28 am |
| Hi Frozenlake, try this link. http://niehorster.orbat.com/031_rumania/41_organ/div_inf_41_recon_bn.html Ian. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 12, 2012 04:00 pm |
| Hello Ian, thank you very much. I know the site of Dr. Leo Niehorster. His description of the regimental reconnaissance company, which by the way can be found in the organizational chart of the 1941 Infantry Regiment http://niehorster.orbat.com/031_rumania/41_organ/div_inf_41_inf-rgt.html, is different from what can be seen on page 42 in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally". In Dr. Leo Niehorster's chart there are two infantry platoons and one cavalry platoon, totaling 11 LMG (8 LMG in the two infantry platoons and 3 LMG in the cavalry platoon). The "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" chart does not go down to platoon level but it shows that there are only 8 LMG in the regimental reconnaissance company. So, the description is different. One may easily jump into the conclusion that according to "Third Axis, Fourth Ally", there are only two infantry platoons in the 1941 regimental reconnaissance company, however it is not explicitly said so. Also, it is important to mention that Dr. Leo Niehorster's chart shows the mobilized organization of the 1941 Infantry Division and the 1941 Infantry Regiment respectively, while the "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" chart simply says "1941 Infantry Division", which may be the peacetime organization. It could be that when mobilized, the regimental reconnaissance company was reinforced with one cavalry platoon, but who knows.... |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 12, 2012 04:58 pm |
| Also, I found a slightly different version of the report on the results of an investigation inquiring why the Romanian Army could not achieve an easy and quick victory at the siege of Odessa that I mentioned in my post from October 6th. This version can be seen http://secreteleistoriei.blogspot.jp/2012/08/odessa-batalia-atentatul-si-represiunea.html. There are two sentences in Romanian about the regimental reconnaissance company: "Compania de cercetare de la infanterie s-a dovedit a fi mult prea slabă pentru misiunile în care a fost întrebuinţată. Ca urmare s-a simţit, aproape în permanenţă, nevoia de a fi întărită cu un pluton de mitraliere, iar plutonul de cercetaşi călări cu puşti-mitraliere." My translation of these two sentences is as follows: "The reconnaissance company of the infantry [regiment] proved to be too weak for the tasks it was used for. As a consequence, the need to reinforce it with a platoon of [heavy] machine guns and a cavalry reconnaissance platoon with light machine guns was felt almost permanently." So, it was thought necessary to strengthen the regimental reconnaissance company with two platoons - one heavy machine gun platoon and one cavalry reconnaissance platoon with light machine guns. Could anybody check this translation, please? |
| Posted by: YAN October 15, 2012 02:02 pm |
| You are welcome Frozenlake, I am sorry I cannot help you further, I only have the TO&E for the Infantry Company, there is one nation who I am stuck on, the Yugoslav Infantry company 1941, there is nothing out there that gives you a detailed account of this unit. Ian. |
| Posted by: Agarici October 15, 2012 05:31 pm | ||
Hello Frozenlake. My version of the translation would be "The reconnaissance company of the infantry [regiment] proved to be too weak for the tasks it was used for. As a consequence, the need to reinforce it with a platoon of [heavy] machine guns and [to reinforce] the cavalry reconnaissance platoon with light machine guns was felt almost permanently." So, in my interpretation, the cavalry platoon was already there. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 16, 2012 05:25 pm |
| Ian, thank you very much again. By the way, it will be very interesting to see the TO&E of the Infantry Company that you have. And especially, the number of LMG. Were there 4 LMG in a platoon, and 12 LMG in the whole company? According to "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" and Dr. Leo Niehorster, there were 12 LMG in the 1941 Infantry Company. And as far as I know, there were 3 Sections in the 1941 Infantry Platoon and each Section had 1 LMG, so where was the 4th LMG? In the Platoon's HQ? This is very interesting because in that case the 4th LMG might have been a spare one and not necessarily used in battle. This is just a guess, I hope you know more than me....Anyway, the TO&E of the 1941 Infantry Platoon may have some useful insights for the 1941 Reconnaissance Company too because it seems that the 1941 Reconnaissance Company had 2 Infantry Platoons... Yes, the 1941 Yugoslav Infantry Company is a tricky one, I'll see if I can find something. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 16, 2012 06:33 pm |
| Agarici, thank you very much for your help with the translation. Yes, this translation leaves no doubt - there was one cavalry platoon, quite probably without any LMG, and it had to be reinforced with LMG. This would explain the 8 LMG in the 1941 Reconnaissance Copmany in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" which may be the LMG in the two Infantry Platoons, if, of course, we accept that there were 4 LMG in one Infantry Platoon....And yet, according to Dr. Leo Niehorster the Cavalry Platoon in the 1941 Reconnaissance company already had 3 LMG. But this translation also means that there is an important difference between the two sources I quoted - the first says that the Reconnaissance company had to be reinforced with a Cavalry Platoon (who were given LMG), and the second says that THE Cavalry platoon had to be reinforced with LMG which means, as Agarici said, that this Cavalry Platoon was one and that it was already there. It is interesting that both sources refer to the same original document - a report on the Battle of Odessa (Arh. M.Ap.N., fond Microfilme, rola P II !.1104, c 332-348). I think, however, that the first source is more reliable because it seems to be a 1-to-1 copy of that microfilm while the second seems to be an article describing the Battle of Odessa. Again, for your reference: http://istorie-militara.blogspot.jp/2007/05/cauzele-pentru-care-armata-romana-n.html http://secreteleistoriei.blogspot.jp/2012/08/odessa-batalia-atentatul-si-represiunea.html |
| Posted by: YAN October 17, 2012 11:08 am |
| Hello Frozenlake, this is where I am a the moment with the Romanian 1942 Infantry Company; Romanian Rifle Company 1942 Company HQ 1 x Captain (Beretta M.1934 9mm Pistol) 1 x Company Sgt Major (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistol) 1 x Bugler (ZB24 7.92mm rifle) Signal team 1 x Corporal (ZB24 7.92mm rifle) 3 x men (ZB24 7.92mm rifles) 1 x M.1933 MAN Field Telephone Observation team 1 x Corporal (ZB24 7.92mm rifle) 3 x men (ZB24 7.92mm rifles) Chemical team 1 x Corporal (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 2 x men (ZB-24 7.92mm rifles) Medical team 1 x Sgt/medic (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistol) 4 x Orderly’s (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistols) 3 x Rifle Platoons each: Platoon HQ 1 x Lieutenant (Beretta M.34 9mm pistol) 1 x Platoon Sgt (Berretta M.34 9mm SMG) 1 x Sniper (Mosin Nagant M.1891/30 7.62mm rifle + Sight) 1 x Tank Hunter Team 1 x Grenadier (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistol + AT Grenades) 1 x Man (Berretta M.38 9mm SMG) 1 x Mortar Squad 1 x Sgt (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 1 x Corporal/Gunner (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistol) 2 x Loaders (Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistols) 1 x Corporal/ammo carrier (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 2 x men/ammo carriers (ZB-24 7.92mm rifles) 1 x 60mm M.36 Mortar 4 x Rifle Sections each: 1 x Sgt (Berretta M.34 9mm SMG) 1 x LMG Squad 1 x Corporal (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 1 x LMG Gunner (1 x ZB-30 7.92mm LMG + Steyr M.1912 9mm Pistol) 1 x Loader (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 2 x Ammo Carriers (ZB-24 7.92mm rifles) Rifle Squad 1 x Corporal (ZB-24 7.92mm rifle) 4 x Men (ZB-24 7.92mm rifles) I am trying to keep it simple because it is for a wargame in 1/72 scale. Ian. |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 19, 2012 04:52 pm |
| Ian, this is actually a very detailed TO&E, thanks. So, the 1942 Infantry Platoon had 4 LMG and 1 60 mm Mortar, which means that the 1942 Infantry Company had 12 LMG and 3 60 mm Mortars. This is what "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" says about the 1942 Infantry Company too. Also, "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" says that the 1942 Regimental Reconnaissance Company had 16 LMG and 2 60 mm Mortars. This is two times more LMG's than 1941, plus the mortars, meaning that the company was significantly stregthened. So far I have found nothing about the TO&E of the 1942 Regimental Reconnaissance Company but presumably, following "Third Axis, Fourth Ally", it was made up of at least 2 Infantry Platoons with 4 LMG each, and probably 1 Cavalry Platoon with 8 LMG (like some Cavalry Squadrons in 1941), or 2 Cavalry Platoons each with 4 LMG. If they were really two, one of them might have been an Infantry Platoon, I don't think that the Cavalry Platoons were dropped altogether. Again, all that is just an educated guess. Do you have similar TO&E for the 1941 Infantry Company? I am very interested to see it. |
| Posted by: YAN October 22, 2012 10:18 am |
| Hi Frozenlake, I am glad you found my last post helpful, I have looked at my TO&E for the 1941 Infantry Company, I did not add any weapons to this list, maybe I didn’t get round to doing so, but they could be similar to the 1942 model. Romanian Rifle Company 1942 Company HQ 1 x Captain 1 x Company Sgt Major Signal team 1 x Corporal 6 x men Observation team 1 x Corporal 6 x men Chemical team 1 x Corporal 2 x men Medical team 1 x Sgt/medic 4 x Orderly’s 3 x Rifle Platoons each: Platoon HQ 1 x Lieutenant 1 x Platoon Sgt 3 x Runners /signallers 4 x Rifle Sections each: 1 x Sgt 1 x LMG Squad 1 x Corporal 1 x LMG Gunner 1 x Loader 3 x Ammo Carriers Rifle Squad 1 x Corporal 4 x Men Ammunition team; 1 x Corporal 9 x Men I also found this on my hard drive; I can’t remember where it came from. The Infantry Platoon was led by either a 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. The Platoon HQ Contained; 1 x Senior Sgt & 3 x Runners (one of the runners was the Lieutenants orderly, another could be a sniper). The Platoon contained three Infantry Squads; The Squad was led by a Sgt, and his Squad was split into three Sections; 1 x LMG Section (1 x Corporal / 1 x Senior Private armed with a ZB-30 LMG / 1 x Private assistant Gunner. Three more Privates rounded off the Section. 2 x Rifle Squads each containing; 1 x Corporal and 4 x Privates. Ian. |
| Posted by: Victor October 22, 2012 01:12 pm | ||
Have you looked on the website? http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?language=en§ion=24 |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 22, 2012 03:20 pm |
| Ian and Victor, thank you very much. Yes, I have seen the website page with the 1941 Infantry Company organization, and the organization of the other units too, they are indeed very informative. Probably I should say the most informative on the Internet concerning the Romanian Army in WWII. The website's 1941 Infantry Company organization is the one with the larger Infantry Sections (17 people, 1 LMG), 3 Sections in a Platoon, 3 Platoons in a Company. That makes 9 LMG in a company, which is different from the book "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" and Dr. Leo Niehorster's web site. Both of them say 12 LMG in a Company. Also, in adition to the 12 LMG, "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" has 2 60 mm mortars in the 1941 Infantry Company, and Dr. Leo Niehorster has 1 Antitank Rifle in the Company HQ (but no mortars, they are in the Heavy Weapons Company) in addition to the 12 LMG. All that is very confusing... Also, Ian, nice work again. In your TO&E of the 1941 Infantry Company there are 4 Sections (1 LMG) in a Platoon, 3 Platoons in a Company, which makes 12 LMG in a Company. Have you got the source of this TO&E? And I think I know where you got the other information from. Try http://www.hat.com/Othr7/Fred01P.html. That website is actually referring to www.worldwar2.ro, so the Infantry Platoon organization you see there is the same as the one in Victor's link. |
| Posted by: YAN October 22, 2012 03:31 pm |
| Hi Frozenlake, you are spot on with your link, I now know where I got my data from, I think Victors site is where I got my other info from (thanks Victor, I noticed in your profile you enjoy Rugby, I suppose you mean Rugby Union, well I enjoy Rugby League, my home town is famous for its League team). Good luck. Ian. |
| Posted by: dragos October 22, 2012 07:48 pm | ||
The sources for 1941 and 1942 infantry company from the website are: Regulament provizoriu aupra instructiei tehnice a infanteriei, Vol. I-II, Inspectoratul General al Infanteriei, 1940. Regulament provizor al infanteriei. Partea I. Volumul II. Compania, Marele Stat Major al Armatei, 1942. which were the official regulations in effect. Infantry was reorganized after the 1941 campaign, so that in 1942 the company had higher firepower, with 12 LMGs compared to 9, and with the addition of 3 60mm mortars (one per platoon) |
| Posted by: Frozenlake October 25, 2012 10:52 am |
| Dragos, thank you very much. Obviously, the regulations of the Inspectorate and the General Staff of the Army are probably the best source for unit organization. I might be drifting away from the topic but there is another thing that attracted my attention. It is the webpage http://istorie-militara.blogspot.jp/2007/05/cauzele-pentru-care-armata-romana-n.html that I have been quoting in this thread, about a report on the Battle of Odessa. It is a sort of resume of the report which allegedly can be found in the Romanian Archives: Resultatul anchetei referitor la cauzele pentru care Armata Romana n-a putut sa aiba o victorie rapida si stralucita la Odessa (rezumat). Arh. M.Ap.N., fond Microfilme, rola P II !.1104, c 332-348. I am not sure whether the exclamation mark after "P II" is part of the source or a mistake. Anyway, here is a quote from that report (in Romanian): "II. Organizare – Dotare 1. Influenta schimbarilor prea dese in constituirea unitatilor, asupra valorii organice. Imposibilitatea de a dota de la inceput unitatile cu armamentul, oamenii (mai ales specialistii), caii si vehiculele prevazute in tabelele de dotare, a dat nastere la dificultati, care s-au agravat pe masura ce razboiul s-a prelungit si s-au produs pierderi. De asemenea, diferitele modificari facute in organizarea unitatilor, in preajma razboiului, au avut consecinte daunatoare atat asupra instructiei, cat si asupra coeziunii unitatilor. Astfel: In iarna 1939 – 1940: • grupa de lupta trece de la 13 oameni, la 17 oameni; • compania de la 4 plutoane a 3 grupe, la 3 plutoane a 3 grupe; • batalionul isi modifica organica companiei de mitraliere, trasformand-o in companie de armament greu batalionar, prin reducerea unui pluton de infanterie si primirea in schimb a unui pluton brandt 60mm, a 3 grupe a 2 piese; • regimentul trece de la organizarea pe 3 batalioane, la 4 batalioane, iar compania armament de insotire se trasforma in companie armament greu regimentar, cu un pluton anticar, un pluton brandt 81 mm si un pluton tunuri insotitoare. Regimentului i se adauga compania de comanda. Acesta organizare s-a realizat in februarie 1940, pentru ca in toamna aceluiasi an sa se revina la organizarea regimentului pe 3 batalioane. In iarna 1940/1941: • grupa de lupta se reorganizeaza pe 10 oameni; • plutonul de puscasi pe 4 grupe; • compania ramane pe 3 plutoane, insa primeste o grupa brandt 60 mm; • compania armament greu batalionar devine companie de mitraliere a 4 plutoane si nu mai poseda brandt-uri; • la regiment apare in plus compania de pionieri. Concomitent cu aceste schimbari, a aparut si modificarea cu care s-a intrat in campanie. La marile unitati: S-a resimtit foarte mult lipsa comandantului brigazii de artilerie, care sa coordoneze si sa conduca focul artileriei divizionare. Substituirea unui comandant de regiment de artilerie in acesta functie nu a dat rezultate fericite din cauza lipsei grupului de comanda corespunzator. In acelasi timp, unul din regimente ramanea fara commandant titular. Deplasarea comandamentelor, impusa de ritmul accelerat al operatiunilor, a intampinat dificultati din lipsa de mijloace de transport auto proprii. S-a recurs la utilizarea masinilor de la compania auto; din acesta cauza a influentat mult bunul mers al aprovizionarilor. La trupe: Grupurile de comanda au fost insuficient dotate cu personal specializat si mijloace de transmisiuni, mai ales la artilerie. In special s-a resimtit continuu lipsa motociclistilor. Unitatile de infanterie Compania de cercetare s-a dovedit a fi prea slab dotata cu armament automat. Nevoile operative au dus la intarirea ei cu un pluton de cercetasi calari si s-au dat pusti mitraliere. Compania de puscasi a fost prea slab dotata cu armament brandt, atat ca numar cat si ca putere. In toate situatiile a avut nevoie de o masa de foc, pe care n-a putut sa o realizeze. Plutonul de puscasi, organizat pe 4 grupe s-a dovedit greoi, din moment ce la comanda acestor grupe nu erau subofiteri. Acest inconvenient s-a accentuat si mai mult in urma pierderilor mari in ofiteri, cand la comanda plutonului au intrat subofiterii. De asemenea, plutonul are nevoie de material curb (brandt 60 mm), de pusti semiautomate individuale si de material exploziv pentru distrugerea retelelor de sarma etc. Compania de mitraliere nu dispunea de material antiaerian special pentru actiuni contra avioanelor zburand la mica inaltime. Batalionul are nevoie de o companie de armament, a carei intrebuintare sa se faca in masa, realizand un foc puternic pe obiectivul interesat. De asemenea are nevoie in organica sa de material anticar. Regimentul nu a avut la dispozitie un material curb de mare putere (aruncatoare superioare calibrului 100 mm)." Now, there appears to be a change in the units organization in the winter of 1940/1941, and the gist of it is as follows (note that my translation may not be correct): • The Infantry Section (referred to as a Combat Group) was reorganized into 10 people. • The Infantry Platoon was reorganized into 4 Sections. • The Infantry Company remained with 3 Platoons but received a section of 60 mm Brandt mortars. • The Infantry Battalion's Heavy Weapons Company was reorganized into a MG Company with 4 Platoons and had no Brandt mortars. • The Infantry Regiment received an Engineer Company. Along (Simultaneously?, Concurrently?) with these changes, [the units] started the campaign. The two Regulament... we know are from 1940 and 1942. Is it possible that such a reorganization happened in the winter of 1940/1941? Can there be a Regulament... from 1941 that reflects these alleged changes? |
| Posted by: Montbrun February 01, 2013 03:41 am |
| I helped Dr. Niehorster with the Romanian unit organizations seen on his site. The references used were as follows: SOURCES: 1) Arhivele Militare Romane, Fondul Divizia 1.Blindata, Dosar Nos. 7, 32, 95, 134, 176, 755. 2) Axworthy, Mark, “Third Axis Fourth Ally,” Arms and Armour Press, London, UK, 1995. 3) Dutu, Alesandru, et al, “Armata Romana in al Doilea Razboi Mondial (1941-1945) – Dictionar Enciclopedic,” Editura Enciclopedica, Bucharest, Rumania, 1999. 4) Dutu, Alesandru, et al, “Eliberarea Basarabiei si a Nordului Bucovinei 22 iunie – 26 iulie 1941,” Editura Fundatiei Culturale Romane, Bucharest, Rumania, 1999. 5) Dutu, Alesandru, et al, “Pe Tarmul Nord-Pontic 17 iulie – 4 iulie 1942,” Editura Fundatiei Culturale Romane, Bucharest, Rumania, 1999. 6) Emilian, Ion V., “Rumanische Kavallerieverbande und Aufklarungsabteilungen im II. Weltkrieg,” “Feldgrau, 1968/5,” Omnium-Druck und Verlag, Berlin, West Germany, 1968. 7) Emilian, Ion V., “Rumanische Kavallerieverbande und Aufklarungsabteilungen im II. Weltkrieg,” “Feldgrau, 1968/6,” Omnium-Druck und Verlag, Berlin, West Germany, 1968. 8) Nitu, Victor, “Divizia 1 Blindata in Lupta, Trecerea Prutului si Pimele Lupta,” MODELIST Magazine, Volume 3, Brasov, Rumania, 2009. 9) Nitu, Victor, “Batalia Pentru Chisinau,” MODELIST Magazine, Volume 4, Brasov, Rumania, 2010. 10) Pascu, Stefan, et al, “Romania in anii celui de-al doilea Razboi Mondial,” 3 Volumes, Editura Militara, Bucharest, Rumania, 1989. 11) Romanescu, Gheorghe, et al, “Istoria Infanteriei Romane,” 2 Volumes, Editura Stiintifica si Enciclopedica, Bucharest, 1985. 12) Scafes, Cornel, et al, “Armata Romana 1941-1945,” Editura RAI, Bucharest, Rumania, 1996. |