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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army > Army Depots lost in N.Transilvania, 1940? |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 19, 2005 03:15 pm |
| Where were the infantry and artillery regimental depots of 16th and 17th Infantry Divisions and 2nd Mixed Mountain Brigade in Transilvania before September 1940? Were any other major formations affected by the evacuation of Northern Transilvania? A Frontier Guard (Graniceri) Regiment, perhaps? Does anyone know which regimental depots had to be evacuated after the 2nd Vienna Award? Many thanks, Sid. P.S. Similar information on 12th Infantry Division and whether any depots were lost in Southern Dobrogea would be most welcome. |
| Posted by: dragos May 21, 2005 03:37 pm |
| The disposition of the units before losing the NW Transylvania were: 16th Infantry Division - Dej
17th Infantry Division - Oradea
Following the Vienna Diktat, the measures were: The 16th, 17th, 20th Infantry Divisions and the 2nd mixed Mountain Brigade released the armament, the ammunition, the heavy gear and the horses in the railroad station nearest to the disbanding zones, in order to be transported by rail to the new garrisons, and the conscripts were released home. The big infantry units were moved south, to the new garrisons as following: 16th Infantry Division: Ramnicu Valcea - Slatina - Caracal 17th Infantry Division: Craiova - Calafat 20th Infantry Division: Ploesti - Campulung Infantry Training Center of Sfantu Gheorghe at Fagaras The Junior Officers Military School to Ploiesti The units of the 4th Army Corps were moved as following: 7th Infantry Division: Leordeni - Pitesti 8th Infantry Division: Gaesti - Pitesti 14th Infantry Division: Golesti - Urziceni |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 22, 2005 12:47 am |
| Hi Dragos, Thanks very much. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 28, 2005 08:06 am |
| Hi Dragos, I have just marked the depots of 16th and 17th Infantry Divisions on a map of the territory lost to Hungary in September 1940. I notice that all their depots are in the far north-west above the Cluj-Napoca/Dej line where there was a large Romanian element in the population, but none are in the four Hungarian-majority counties (according to Romanian census records) in the south-east of the lost area. Were there any divisional and regimental depots in these four Hungarian-majority counties in the south-east of the annexed area? If so, which were they and where were they deployed in September 1940? I have also been looking at Volume II of "Armata Romana de la Ultimatum la Dictat anul 1940". On p.129 it gives a copy of an order dated 31 August 1940 in which 16th and 17th Infantry Divisions and 2nd Mountain Brigade appear to be instructed to do as you say and deposit their heavy weapons, etc., at the nearest railway stations and disband. However, on p.152 a second order appears to have been issued on 1 September annulling points 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 of the earlier order and instead appears to instruct the three formations to fall back over the new border. Over the next couple of days in early September the book records documents detailing at least 1,500 desertions from these formations before order is restored. What actually happened? Were 16th and 17th Infantry Divisions disbanded in Northern Transilvania (as per the order of 31 August), or were they first withdrawn over the new border and only then disbanded (as per the order of 1 September)? (Please bear in mind that I do not speak Romanian and am basing my translation on a good dictionary and my knowledge of French and Spanish, so I could be wrong) Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 28, 2005 08:30 am |
| P.S, Looking at the map, the following places look big enough to possibly hold regimental or battalion depots: Beclean Nasaud Bistrita Reghin Targu Mures Toplita Gheorgeni Sovata Odorheiu Secuiesc Cristuru Secuiesc Miercure-Ciuc Targu Secuiesc Sfintu Gheorghe Covasna What units were based in them before the loss of Northern Transilvania in 1940? Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: dragos May 28, 2005 07:27 pm | ||||||
The informations I gave are from "Istoria infanteriei romane" 1985. Unfortunately there is no reference to the order issued on 1 September 1940.
According to the above mentioned source, at the 87th Infantry Regiment from the 16th Infantry Division, half of the effective left the unit, seeking refuge in the nearby woods, in order not to be forced to leave the land.
The 16th and 17th divisions were not disbanded right away. Their commands were disbanded during September 1940, as part of the army reorganization that took place after Ion Antonescu came to power. |
| Posted by: dragos May 28, 2005 07:38 pm | ||
Târgu Mureş - 82nd Infantry Regiment, 39th Artillery Regiment, 40th Artillery Regiment (20th Infantry Division) Bistriţa - 1/84th Frontier Guards Regiment (20th ID) Alba Iulia - 91st Infantry Regiment (20th ID) Timisoara - 5th Vânători Regiment, 1st Artillery Regiment, 38th Artillery Regiment (1st ID) Lugoj - 17th Infantry Division (1st ID), 42nd Artillery Regiment (19th ID) Ineu - 4th Frontier guards Regiment (1st ID) Arad - 93rd Infantry Regiment (1st ID) Sibiu - 3/90 Frontier guards Regiment, 35th Artillery Regiment (18th ID) Orăştie - 92nd Infantry Regiment (18th ID) Târgu Jiu - 18th Infantry Regiment, 36th Artillery Regiment (18th ID) Orşova - 94th Infantry Regiment (19th ID) Turnu Severin - 95th Infantry Regiment, 37th Artillery Regiment (19th ID) Caransebeş - 2/96 Frontier guards Regiment (19th ID) |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 29, 2005 07:37 am |
| Hi Dragos, Many thanks. I have added the Targu Mures and Bistrita depots of 20th Infantry Division to my map. However, this still leaves the core Hungarian-populated area to the south-east of the Toplita-Sovata-Cristuru Secuiesc line unaccounted for. Have you any other information on Romanian depots in this area before Vienna? Also, where were 12th Infantry Division's depots? Was it disbanded because of population and territorial losses in Transilvania or Basarabia? Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: dragos May 29, 2005 08:27 am | ||
12th Infantry Division was part of the 3rd Army Corps in Bessarabia. 3rd Vânători Regiment - Bolgrad 28th Dorobanţi Regiment - Tarutino 35th Infantry Regiment - Cetatea Albă 22nd Artillery Regiment - Bolgrad 25th Artillery Regiment - Ismail 12th Infatry Division was also disbanded during the army reorganization of September 1940. |
| Posted by: dragos May 29, 2005 09:57 am |
| Map with the disposition of units before the territorial losses of 1940. http://img288.echo.cx/my.php?image=harta1wu.jpg |
| Posted by: sid guttridge May 29, 2005 10:54 am |
| Hi Dragos, I have a photocopy of that map. It is on p.53 of "Eliberarea Basarabiei si a Nordului Bucovinei". There is another map on p.54 showing Romanian deployments after the territorial losses. The trouble with this one is that it doesn't agree with what appears to be a more detailed map on p.27 of "Romania si Basarabia" (by Anatol Petrencu, 1999). The trouble with the Petrencu map is that it is badly reproduced and I cannot read many of the divisional numbers. The Petrencu map is also reproduced on the cover of "Armata Romana de la Ultimatum la Dictat", but this time the title is printed across it and again it is impossible to read large parts. It is clear that the information is available, but nobody in the publishing industry seems to realise the vital importance of accurate and legible maps to any military history book. A good map is worth many, many pages of text. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge June 15, 2005 11:55 am |
| Hi Dragos, I have been looking at a pre-war Romanian ethnic map. Eight counties (judet?) are noted as having a majority of minorities. Hungarian majority: Odorhei, Ciuc, Trei Scaune. Ruthene majority: Storijinet, Cernauti, Hotin. Bulgarian majority: Caliacra. Turkish majority: Durostor. Did any of them have Romanian Army regimental depots in them? From our earlier posts, it appears that Odorhei, Ciuc and Trei Scaune did not. What about the others? Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: dragos June 15, 2005 12:24 pm |
| Sid, can you post the map, so I can see what localties encompass these counties? |
| Posted by: sid guttridge June 16, 2005 09:34 am |
| Hi Dragos, I cannot post the map over the internet because I use a library terminal, but I can tell you the source - "Spatiul istoric si etnic Romanesc" (Editura Militara, Bucharest, 1992). It was in Volume 2, I think. It is a three volume atlas. I can post a xerox to you if you leave a postal address in my PM box. From what I remember, Caliacra and Durostor were exactly the same area as Southern Dobrogea. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: dragos June 16, 2005 10:39 am |
| Depots in the "Quadrilateral" (Southern Dobruja): 4th Frontier guards Regiment - Balcic 36th Infantry Regiment - Silistra For the depots in Bessarabia I'll return later. |
| Posted by: dragos June 16, 2005 12:38 pm |
| Depots in Bessarabia: Ismail - 12th Infantry Division, 25th Artillery Regiment Bolgrad - 3rd Vânători Regiment, 22nd Artillery Regiment Tarutino - 28th Dorobanţi Regiment Cetatea Albă - 35th Infantry Regiment Chişinău - 15th Infantry Division, 25th, 30th Artillery Regiments Orhei - 7th Vânători Regiment Tighina - 25th Infantry Regiment Cernăuţi - 8th Infantry Division, 3rd Frontier guards Regiment, 12th Artillery Regiment Bălţi - 6th Vânători Regiment, 29th Artillery Regiment Lipcani - 8th Vânători Regiment Hope I don't miss anything. |
| Posted by: Florin June 18, 2005 03:10 am |
| Sid and Dragos, You posted a lot of interesting information. Sid started the topic regarding the 2nd Mixed Mountain Brigade. I did not see the city of Zalau mentioned anywhere. My grandfather was professional military in a regiment belonging to a mountain division. Their headquarter was in Zalau. My mother was born in Zalau, Transylvania. So, as Zalau is not on your list, should I understand that they were under the First Mixed Mountain Brigade? |
| Posted by: dragos June 18, 2005 02:24 pm | ||
I compiled the list from the book "Istoria infanteriei romane" vol. II, Bucharest 1985, therefor it is limited to the infantry divisions. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge June 20, 2005 01:39 pm |
| Hi Dragos, Sorry to be slow to acknowledge your reply to my question. Many thanks, Sid. |