Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
WorldWar2.ro Forum > WW1 and Regional Wars (1912-1919) > Romanians vs Romanians in WWI


Posted by: Sebastian October 29, 2009 09:10 pm
I think it would be interesting to discuss the drama/tragedy of the Romanians that fought against each other in WWI. It is a tragedy unique in Europe.

Posted by: Dénes October 30, 2009 06:27 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ October 30, 2009 03:10 am)
It is a tragedy unique in Europe.

What makes you think it was unique? Ethnic minorities were/are pushed in the line of fire all the time. Last example in Europe: the Serbo-Croat war in the 1990.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf October 30, 2009 12:57 pm
I dont want to start a long discussion, but my opinion is that the war between serbs and croats in 1990 is not the same as the situation of romanians in ww1. Serbs and croats started the war between them because each nation wanted to have it's own state.

In ww1 romanians from Transylvania, Banat and Bucovina were sent to fight sometimes against romanians from Romania, but the former ones in fact wanted the union with Romania. Romanians from that three provinces were sent against romanians from Romania by AH empire.

The result of serb-croat war is seen today in two different and apart states.

The fact that all romanians from all regions inhabited by them wanted to be united in one single state is seen now in what it is today Romania, after the 1st of December 1918.

I am not agree totaly with Sebastian, because in ww1 not only romanians were sent by AH monarchy to fight against their brothers. So the romanian case is not so unique. The italians were in the same situation. I believe the serbs also. Not all nationalities from AH monarchy had somewhere on Earth a national state, as were romanians and italians. In their cases the tragedy were felt bigger and bitter cos they fought under AH colours against their brothers. It is not the case of czechs, slovacs and others who had no national state at the begining of ww1.

Posted by: Imperialist October 30, 2009 02:31 pm
"Cântec de cătănie" performed by Grigore Leşe. Romanian traditional folk song from Transylvania area. A sad ballad ("doina") about young men drafted in army.

*******

Pictures show Romanians (from Transylvania and Banat areas) during their tour of duty in the Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZhEp0jBVUE

Posted by: Dénes October 30, 2009 07:46 pm
QUOTE (21 inf @ October 30, 2009 06:57 pm)
I dont want to start a long discussion, but my opinion is that the war between serbs and croats in 1990 is not the same as the situation of romanians in ww1. Serbs and croats started the war between them because each nation wanted to have it's own state.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, or my post wasn't read carefully.

Why I actually raised the issue of the recent serbo-croat war is because both nations tended to push their own ethnic minorities in the first lines, where fire was intense and casualties high. In other words, Serb commanders pushed ethnic Albanian, Hungarian, Croat, etc., soldiers in the first lines, the Croats doing about the same, with their own ethnics.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf October 31, 2009 03:53 am
Well, if they did such, they are stupid. One can't expect that those ethnics fight as well as for their own cause and one can expect from their part high rate of non-combat atitude or desertion and so on.

Posted by: Klemen November 16, 2009 01:23 pm
QUOTE
I think it would be interesting to discuss the drama/tragedy of the Romanians that fought against each other in WWI. It is a tragedy unique in Europe.

Oh Sebastian, it is anything but unique. biggrin.gif

Let's take for example World War I where Romanians in the Austro-Hungarian Army fought against Royal Romanians. Then you had Serbs from Slavonia, Vojwodina and Lika who fought against Serbs in Serbia in 1914-1915. Slovenes who fought against Venetian Slovenes in the Italian Army. Austrian Poles and Ukrainians who fought against Poles and Ukrainians in the Imperial Russian Army. French Alsatians who fought against French, though their regiments were mostly on the Eastern Front, but still.. There were some individuals who saw service on the Western Front. And of course you also have Volga and Baltic Germans fighting against Germans at Tannenberg and Masurian Lakes.

Lots of such cases. biggrin.gif

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: Sebastian January 01, 2010 07:28 pm
I appeciate that there few reactions to my proposals.

To make things shorter, I am writing my PhD Thesis on a comparative assessment of the supranational and national military loyalties among Romanians (1848-1918). Why I do believe the case of Romanians in WWI is so unique? There are few reasons:
- in 1914, Romanians were divided along several lines of loyalties: national-ist (Romanian Kingdom), supranational (Austro-Hungarian corporatist empire), sub-national (Bessarabia, Serbia and Bulgaria).
- there was no consolidated national identity as we know it today.
- the geographical locus of national identity craddle (Translyvania) did not belong to the nation-state (Romanian Kingdom).
-national identity has been developed under the huge pressure of three imperial matrixes: Habsburg, Ottoman and Tsarist (Russian).
- there was no consensus over the best alliance's belonging (Entente or Central Powers).
- any firm political attitude might have become either loyalty or betrayal.

Out of this tragic framework, a national identity has been imposed and survived for almost a century now, which is basically unique in Europe.

I am waiting for your further comments.

Happy New Year





Posted by: contras January 01, 2010 08:18 pm
I think we forget one case, the first one were Romanians fought each other in ww1. Starting to 1914, in Galitia, Romanians from AH (Transylvania and Bukovina) were fighting against Romanian fron Bassarabia, who were part of Russian Empire. There are many cases reported in memories and diaries. (Octav Codru Taslauanu related also about this fact in his memories, republished after 1990, in 2 volumes).

Posted by: 21 inf January 02, 2010 03:14 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 01, 2010 07:28 pm)
- there was no consolidated national identity as we know it today.
- the geographical locus of national identity craddle (Translyvania) did not belong to the nation-state (Romanian Kingdom).
-national identity has been developed under the huge pressure of three imperial matrixes: Habsburg, Ottoman and Tsarist (Russian).
- there was no consensus over the best alliance's belonging (Entente or Central Powers).
- any firm political attitude might have become either loyalty or betrayal.

Out of this tragic framework, a national identity has been imposed and survived for almost a century now, which is basically unique in Europe.

I am waiting for your further comments.

Happy New Year

I dare to disagree some of the points cited here.

The national identity was surprinsingly very well developed even before 1848. At Blaj in 1848 Romanian National Gathering firmly stated "Noi vrem sa ne unim cu tara!" ("We want the union with Motherland!"). I dare to ask, if there was no national identity, why RNG stated such? To unite with what Motherland? Romania as state doesnt exist at that time! It was just a formal custom union since 1842 between Moldavia and Walachia, but was no room to speak about a romanian state. To Hungary? No, because this was the esence of Romanians fight in 1848/1849, cos they didnt wanted a Transylvanian union with Hungary. To Austrian empire? They turned to austrian cos they figured out the the hungarian revolution program was not suitable to romanians from Transylvania. How many people are aware today that at the national gathering at Blaj Alexandru Ioan Cuza, later first ruler of first Romanian state, was participated? And only 11 years after this Blaj gathering, first Romanian state emerged? Too odd to be just an coincidence. So, I would say that national identity was clearly and well developed even far before 1848, as being hard to believe that national identity went consolidated in that very year.

Revolutionary romanians from Muntenia sought shelter in Transylvania, but not to hungarian revolutionaries, but to transylvanian romanian revolutionary resistance from Apuseni mountains. Why to transylvanian romanian revolutionaries, who were alied with austrian (practicaly the opresors of the 1848 revolution) and not to hungarian revolutionaries, who were against austrians and other opressors? Conclusion: national feelings went above revolutionary ideas, so a great degree of national feeling had to be existing.

National identity was developed under 3 huge empires, but not necesarily under a huge pressure. Ottoman and Russian empire didnt atack national identity in such manner as it was in Transylvania. Not even in Transylvania Habsburgs were not so mean trying to destroy romanian identity. The fight was more between romanians and hungarian landlords, the later being also those who made rules in the Transylvanian Dieta, issuing such laws that romanians were at risk to loose national identity.

At the begining of ww1, romanian popular atitude was to enter war against Central Powers, as national feeling was great and wanted to liberate romanians from AH rule. The idea to enter ww1 beside Central Powers was of Carol I, who signed the secret aliance treaty with Germany, AH and others. Only a handfull of politicians agreed this idea (one of them being P. P. Carp), the rest of political class being for an alliance with Entente. So betrayal or not, it was practically clear in what direction Romania was heading at the begining of ww1. It was just a matter of time when Romania joined ww1, not a matter of option.

Posted by: Victor January 04, 2010 05:35 pm
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 02, 2010 05:14 pm)

National identity was developed under 3 huge empires, but not necesarily under a huge pressure. Ottoman and Russian empire didnt atack national identity in such manner as it was in Transylvania. Not even in Transylvania Habsburgs were not so mean trying to destroy romanian identity. The fight was more between romanians and hungarian landlords, the later being also those who made rules in the Transylvanian Dieta, issuing such laws that romanians were at risk to loose national identity.

I do not fully agree. The Russian Empire was much more effective in transforming Bessarabia after occupation than Hungary ever was able to Magyarize the Romanian population. This was due in my opinion to the higher level of cultural development of the Romanians in Transylvania and to the comparitively less brutal methods employed by the Hungarian Kingdom.

Posted by: ANDREAS January 04, 2010 08:16 pm
Indeed Victor,
but also true is that a huge empire like Russia did have other possibilities to absorb a little population in his indigenous population mass, situation inimaginable in a small state (compared to Russia) like Austro-Hungary. We have to remember that the assimilation policy of Hungary run for a relative short time (less than 50 years) compared to the russian (around 100 years untill 1918 and other 45 after 1945), and the education level of our population was much more reduced in Bassarabia compared to Transsylvania. And also the church -the orthodox church- who helped the romanians in Transsylvania (surely not as important as the greek catholic church!) played an important part in the russification policy in Bassarabia. Just some thoughts about this thema...

Posted by: Victor January 06, 2010 05:46 pm
QUOTE (ANDREAS @ January 04, 2010 10:16 pm)
Indeed Victor,
but also true is that a huge empire like Russia did have other possibilities to absorb a little population in his indigenous population mass, situation inimaginable in a small state (compared to Russia) like Austro-Hungary. We have to remember that the assimilation policy of Hungary run for a relative short time (less than 50 years) compared to the russian (around 100 years untill 1918 and other 45 after 1945), and the education level of our population was much more reduced in Bassarabia compared to Transsylvania. And also the church -the orthodox church- who helped the romanians in Transsylvania (surely not as important as the greek catholic church!) played an important part in the russification policy in Bassarabia. Just some thoughts about this thema...

The point was about Russia trying as well to destroy the national identity of the territory it had annexed in 1812 (the situation after 1918 is not relevant to the discussion at hand). Hungary was not the only one trying this, as 21inf claimed, and, IMO, it wasn't the most successful at it either.

What the Russian Empire did in Bessarabia between 1812 and 1918 is the subject of several books or in our case a separate topic.

Posted by: ANDREAS January 06, 2010 10:23 pm
A question about the problem in question...
How often did the romanian-made units from the A-H Army met in combat the romanian units from Romania. Did anybody know this? I mean was that often happen or just of random?

Posted by: 21 inf January 07, 2010 05:43 am
QUOTE (Victor @ January 04, 2010 05:35 pm)
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 02, 2010 05:14 pm)

National identity was developed under 3 huge empires, but not necesarily under a huge pressure. Ottoman and Russian empire didnt atack national identity in such manner as it was in Transylvania. Not even in Transylvania Habsburgs were not so mean trying to destroy romanian identity. The fight was more between romanians and hungarian landlords, the later being also those who made rules in the Transylvanian Dieta, issuing such laws that romanians were at risk to loose national identity.

I do not fully agree. The Russian Empire was much more effective in transforming Bessarabia after occupation than Hungary ever was able to Magyarize the Romanian population. This was due in my opinion to the higher level of cultural development of the Romanians in Transylvania and to the comparitively less brutal methods employed by the Hungarian Kingdom.

Which were the brutal method of russification on Bessarabia between 1812-1918, giving the comparison mentioned that the hungarian ones were less brutal than the russian's?

Posted by: contras January 07, 2010 12:00 pm
QUOTE
How often did the romanian-made units from the A-H Army met in combat the romanian units from Romania. Did anybody know this? I mean was that often happen or just of random?


Nobody can made a statistics, but from memoires of veterans, these meetings in combat were often. Of were so traumatised for Romanians to meet in combat fellow Romanians, that each time it happens, it is mentioned by veterans (in Galitia).
In 1916, when Romanian army entered in Transylvania, were many cases. Many Romanians in AH army who surrendered at first wiew to Romanian soldiers, and later served as volunteers in Ro army.
But in some places, fightings occured, and those Ro from AH army who tried to cross the lines to Ro army and were captured, were hanged.
The most known case is of Livius's Rebreanu brother, who was hanged because he tried to desert to Romanians. He was awarded in Italy, and later his unit was sent in Transylvania to fight against Romanians. His case is ilustrated in Liviu Rebreanu novel, Padurea spanzuratilor, Apostol Bologa, the pricipal character of the novel, is in fact his brother, Emil Rebreanu.

Posted by: 21 inf January 07, 2010 02:37 pm
One can made an aproximative, at least, statistic about AH romanian units against romanian from Romania units following the history of deployment of different AH units raised from romanian AH ranks. There are sites which presents the ethnic composition of each AH great unit (division, regiment) and compiling with the deploying of the unit one make a certain idea if there were romanians against romanians. It should be an interesting statistic!

Posted by: ANDREAS January 07, 2010 04:51 pm
QUOTE
There are sites which presents the ethnic composition of each AH great unit (division, regiment) and compiling with the deploying of the unit one make a certain idea if there were romanians against romanians. It should be an interesting statistic!

Hello 21 inf,
That's a very interesting idea which I intend to apply when I have some free time... My interest in doing this is whether or not there was a deliberate policy of the A-H Army or just happen... I wonder if you can help me by giving me a name for such a site where I can find -unit, deployment, ethnic composition, ...
Thanks in advance!

Posted by: Imperialist January 07, 2010 06:45 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 01, 2010 07:28 pm)
Why I do believe the case of Romanians in WWI is so unique? There are few reasons:
- in 1914, Romanians were divided along several lines of loyalties: national-ist (Romanian Kingdom), supranational (Austro-Hungarian corporatist empire), sub-national (Bessarabia, Serbia and Bulgaria).
- there was no consolidated national identity as we know it today.

Could you explain a bit clearer what do you mean that there was no consolidated national identity? You mean in 1914? In Transylvania?

thanks

Posted by: 21 inf January 08, 2010 05:50 am
Hi, Andreas!

Here are the ethnic compositions of AH units in 1914:
Common Army Infantry and Jager Units http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality.htm

Common Army Cavalry Regiments http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality2.htm

Austrian and Hungarian Landwehr Infantry http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality3.htm

Austrian and Hungarian Landwehr Cavalry http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality4.htm

Common Army, Austrian & Hungarian Landwehr Field Artillery http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality5.htm

Common Army Fortress Artillery Regiments http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality6.htm

Common Army Pioneer and Sapper Units http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/nationality7.htm

This are ethnic composition in 1914, but this may vary until 1916 when some of this units were sent to romanian front. I dont know how much this ethnic composition varied in 1916, but I can supose that it was no great difference, since the drafting areas weren't changed. Maybe the ethnic composition was modified by receiving reinforcements thru so-called "march batalions". As far as I know, each great AH unit had a march batalion which was destinated to bring reinforcements to front. All march batalions were recruited from the same drafting area as the original great unit, but not always the march batalions were sent to their "mother unit". Sometimes march batalions were sent to diferent great units, were they were badly needed, so the ethnic composition may varied due to this mixing of mother units with march batalions, but in great lines, probably the ethnic composition was more or less the same in the great unit in discussion.

Posted by: contras January 08, 2010 06:19 am
About Galicia fightings, the first fight that involves Romanian vs Romanian recounted by Octav Taslauanu (Sub flamurile habsurgice, edit Rao) was in autumn 1914, on Dniestr region, near Horbacze, when his btl 2 Fagaras (From Reg 23 Sibiu) flanked at left by Reg 41 from Bukovina was involved in fights against Bassarabians.

Posted by: Victor January 08, 2010 08:49 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 07, 2010 07:43 am)
QUOTE (Victor @ January 04, 2010 05:35 pm)
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 02, 2010 05:14 pm)

National identity was developed under 3 huge empires, but not necesarily under a huge pressure. Ottoman and Russian empire didnt atack national identity in such manner as it was in Transylvania. Not even in Transylvania Habsburgs were not so mean trying to destroy romanian identity. The fight was more between romanians and hungarian landlords, the later being also those who made rules in the Transylvanian Dieta, issuing such laws that romanians were at risk to loose national identity.

I do not fully agree. The Russian Empire was much more effective in transforming Bessarabia after occupation than Hungary ever was able to Magyarize the Romanian population. This was due in my opinion to the higher level of cultural development of the Romanians in Transylvania and to the comparitively less brutal methods employed by the Hungarian Kingdom.

Which were the brutal method of russification on Bessarabia between 1812-1918, giving the comparison mentioned that the hungarian ones were less brutal than the russian's?

The discussion is really off-topic here. You can start a new one if you wish to discuss the subject of Bessarabia between 1812 and 1918.

Posted by: ANDREAS January 08, 2010 09:44 pm
Hallo 21 inf,
Thank you very much! Interesting information I could find there, indeed...
But a significant number of A-H units present in Transylvania in august -september 1916 were new raised -f.ex. 61. Infantry Division -raised in 1915 (hungarian division from imperial army), 70. Honvéd Infantry Division -raised in 1915 (hungarian division from territorial army) or 144. Honvéd Infantry Brigade -raised in 1916 (hungarian brigade from territorial army)... so about this units we can only assume that the percentage of romanian was high. But surely there are enough units we can identify on the site you mentioned.
Hallo Contras,
interesting example you gave... I almost forgot that the russian imperial army used romanian contingents too! And they were send to fight their brothers from A-H Army. Tragic episodes of a huge disaster -the First World War.

Posted by: contras January 08, 2010 10:06 pm
Hallo Andreas,
I must regognise but I'm not have a clue to find an OOB in Russian army in 1914. Even I can find it, I truly believe that the Bassarabian units were not recognised like Romanian ones, the russificasion politics it worked here so much. In a few minutes I'll came with one example about Ro against Ro in 1916, just let me look at the book I had in mind.

Posted by: contras January 08, 2010 10:35 pm
About Galicia fightings recounted by Octav Codru Taslauanu, in wich romanian in AH army fight against romanian in Russian army, the Bassarabians, the battle he tells in his memories took part between 9 to 11 September 1914, in Galicia, close to Dniestr river, near Horbacze, close to Stambor.
Another episode recounted by Polihron Dumitrescu, in that time (1916) locotenent, when he drives his platoon and company in battle of Cerna, he attempt to enter in a valley, when a man in AH uniform apeared, non armed, with both hands raised, and began to shooted at them in Romanian:
Do not enter, do not close, mr officer, stay back!
He was a Romanian from Transylvania, his name was Toma Ion, and he surrender. He swows to Romanian units that all the valley was mined, later were taken off about 100 kilos of dynamite from there, two faked tombs were the points where the ignitions were.

Polihron Dumitrescu, Ascultand chemarea, 1968.

By the way, Polihron Dumitrescu took part at the battles of Cerna, Jiu, Olt, Marasti, Marasesti, oituz and Ciresoaia.

The book apeared in comuist era, and I don't know if he was involved in the 1919 battles. Anyhow, in 1968, he still lived.

Posted by: Sebastian January 10, 2010 08:58 am
Hello to everybody!

First of all, it is indeed interesting to see the topic is of interest.

For clarifying what I've said about "consolidated national identity":

1) Practical Issues:
- in 1914 there was already a national state (Roumanian constitutional monarchy).
- however, its life was very short: full recognition and declaration of it as such came only in 1881, so at the beginning of the WWI there was a 33 years old Roumanian national state as such.
- Roumanians in Transylvania fought loyaly in the KuK army (see the case of Sextil Puscariu, for instance, who in the summer of 1914 is in Bucharest, nobody is going to punish him, but he choses, out of a "sense of duty", to cross the Carpathians and join the KuK).
- Most of the Roumanian national elite in Transylvania did not think about joining the Romanian Kingdom since Romania was an ally of Austria-Hungary. Alexandru Vaida Voevod famously stated that Romanian Kingdom would easily join the Austro-Hungarian Empire than Transylvania joining the Romanian Kingdom (reference from Episcop in Romania).

2) theoretical Issues:
- national identity building is a process (never ending), since it is permanently negociated (boundaries, national myths, etc.) and institutionalized (relations between ethnic majority and minorities, citizenship, army conscription, etc.).
- nation-state belongs to different international contexts (in case of Romania significant difference between 1848, 1859, 1914, 1919, 1947, 1989, 2007, etc.). National identity is influenced by the general international situation, namely what is possible and what is not.

Conclusion:
- I did not say that in 1848 there was no national identity. I said it was unconsolidated (as we feel it today) because at the moment there was no single state that would "securitize" and "secure" this identity. In 1848, the main problems were language, national myths (Roman-Latin origins, frontier status, Ortthodox Christianity, etc.). In addition, we should not forget that in Blaj all the leaders declared their full and un-negotiated loyalty to the Emperor. If one only looks at the tragedy of the Romanian grenze regiments from Nasaud, it will understand this.

I hope I was clear enough with this.

On the other hand, the Roumanian drama was one of the highest since the level of trust between the leaders of Roumanian minorities in the surrounding empires (especially AH and Russian) in the Roumanian governments and politicians in Bucharest was very low even after 1918. Maniu's letter to the King in 1938 is tragic, to say the least.

What I would like to discuss with you are these kind of aspects.

Secondly, I would like to ask you whether you know cases of Roumanian military officers from the AH and Russian army that were integrated or rejected by the Roumanian national army after 1919. This cases might say much about the real tragedy of these people.

Posted by: 21 inf January 10, 2010 09:15 am
Dear Sebastian,

There are always two faces of one coin. Depend on which one is looking...

About 1848 sense of nationality in Transylvania, I'd say you have to read more and you have to put some questions about it.

Even if the leaders of transylvanian romanians declared their full suport to austrian emperor, so did the commoners.The national identity in Transylvania and especially in Apuseni Mountains was as stronger as today back in 1848, disregarding "myths" as daco/roman roots, orthodoxy and so on. The wallach grenz infanterie regiments from austrian army is another discussion, the romanians drafted in those regiments had to give up their ortodox religion, some of them, especially oficers, were germanised in names as a condition to join austrian army and were drafted from diferent parts of Transylvania, not only from Nasaud or Orlat.

The "alliance" with austrians in 1848 was a normal conclusion after hungarian presented their revolutionary program, as it was not suited with transylvanian romanian's targets for the revolution. Being the ipotetical case that a Romanian state existed back in 1848, transylvanian romanians would join romanians from across Carpathians and no the austrians. But the "alliance" with austrians was the best option in the absence of a better one, which occured only in 1916.

The same strong national identity occured in Apuseni Mountains, mainly in Zarand and Tara Motilor back in the times of Horea peasant rising, in 1784. Starting with a social program, soon the movement of Horea's peasant took a national program. For the confirmation of this, try to read Horea's proclamations from late 1784.

Posted by: Dénes January 10, 2010 01:33 pm
Sebastian, your views presented above are certainly proof that you're "thinking out of the box" many other persons are trapped in, and try to do a fresh approach to these delicate topics. However, I do not agree with all your conclusions.

Today just a few points to support your conclusions and answer your questions:

QUOTE
Roumanians in Transylvania fought loyaly in the KuK army (see the case of Sextil Puscariu, for instance, who in the summer of 1914 is in Bucharest, nobody is going to punish him, but he choses, out of a "sense of duty", to cross the Carpathians and join the KuK).


Myself being interested mostly in the history of aviation came across several names of k.u.k. airmen with of Rumanian origin, who fought during WW I, some on the Rumanian front. For example, Leo Onciul, who was an observer in Flik. 36. His airplane force landed in Rumanian held territory on 24 Sept. 1917 and the crew became POW.

QUOTE
I would like to ask you whether you know cases of Roumanian military officers from the AH and Russian army that were integrated or rejected by the Roumanian national army after 1919. This cases might say much about the real tragedy of these people.

Yes, there were dozens of ex-k.u.k. airmen (particularily German ethnics, but Rumanians and Hungarians, too), who enrolled after 1918 in the Rumanian air force and served until the end of the 1930s. I can give you examples, if needed.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf January 10, 2010 02:52 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ January 10, 2010 01:33 pm)
Sebastian, your views presented above are certainly proof that you're "thinking out of the box" many other persons are trapped in, and try to do a fresh approach to these delicate topics.

One can be of course a grown up man and able to made a certain opinion on desired subject. Not always a "think out of box" is necesarilly apropiate, when the things are clear as they were before. The subject about national feelings in romanian's case is clear as day light. Since 1784 hungarians tried to acuse Horea as having a "Daco-Romanian" atitude and this is, from romanian point of view, ok. What is so bad from romanian point of view, to be romanian and to declare that you want so? biggrin.gif This is the idea for which peasants from Tara Motilor fought very soon in 1784, after their social revendications. A social uprising turned very fast in a national one, not only in Tara Motilor, but also in Salaj, Cluj and other counties. I can point some works as a proof, if wanted or needed.

One can ask why a fresh aproach for clearly researched subjects is needed? Just to have an oposite opinion, to be "different", to have a "frondă" atitude? Of course, if one want to do so.

The national feeling in romanian case is not sensitive, as knowing well our national history and knowing what our ancestor fought for, the romanian national conscience is a fact since long before writen colective memory and fact for which our ancestors died. There are too many well documented and writen works to prove that. Prestigious romanian historians as Silviu Dragomir, David Prodan and many others cleared the subject of national comunity of feelings long time ago. Their works are a statement that at least in Transylvania the national conscience was well developed and mantained in the harshest conditions, vivid and clear many centuries before our days.

The debate regarding romanian national conscience is just a subject of discussion for people who are not enough documented and it is exactly the same subject as it is the debate between romanian ortodoxs and greek catholics. Greek catholics from Romania says that if they didnt existed, romanian from Transylvania never became emancipated, for only greek catholics worked for raising schools and have access to learning. Not trying to make their deeds less valuable that they were, if one study enough, one can make the opinion that even without those greek catholic romanians, the course of romanian history in Transylvania it would be the same. Greek catholic wisemen apeared too late in our history to play such a significant role that they asume for themselfes. It is only a reason to defend their choose, to join a religion invented by austrians in late XVII century for orthodox nations as romanians.

Posted by: Dénes January 10, 2010 04:37 pm
One of the common errors committed when talking of a 'nation' and a 'national state' is to trace the nation centuries back, well into the Middle Age, or beyond. This is plain wrong.

The concept of 'nation' (both political and cultural), as we understand it today, emerged only around the end of the 18th century and it's birth coincides with the French Revolution of 1789. This novel notion reached the territories populated by Rumanians at the very end of the XVIIIth Century. Before that the 'nation' did NOT play a role in political, historical and social life. In other words, it did not matter what language people spoke. What actually DID matter was religion - much more like today - and social status, incl. nobility vs. peasantry. Therefore, for example, the statement like Michael the Brave somehow 'united' the Rumanians in the three 'Rumanian' territories in 1600 is a historical nonsense. It only serves current politics, nothing else. And so on.

21inf., et al., please take a second look on what you've written, and perhaps you can rethink some of your statements in light of this information.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf January 10, 2010 07:17 pm
Dear Denes, please let me ask you to take a little reading of the initial program Horea's uprising from 1784 and compare it with the principles of French revolution from 1789. You will find it suprisingly similar, but the romanian social programe came 5 years earlier than the french one. It is surprising, isnt it, that such a programe came from the "dark" mind of a peasant from Apuseni Mountains, from Tara Motilor smile.gif The inittial programe went eventually into a national one.

You say that the notion of nation came into romanian teritories (let's hope this include Transylvania, for the sake of this discussion) in late XVIII century. This is fitting with the year of Horea's uprising from 1784, but who believes that a nation sense apeared to romanians from Transylvania just like this, sudenly, in a few years. A less known episode from romanian history from Transylvania is the coming of Sofronie, an ortodox monk, originated from Transylvania, but emigrated as monk in Wallachia.

In 1760 he came back in Transylvania and started to make religious ortodox agitation in Zarand and Tara Motilor, in order to opose the greek catholic politics of austrians. The religious movement degenerated rapidly in a national one and Sofronie, scared about the turn of his movement, stoped all his actions.

This was in XVIII century, but this seems more like a conclusion of national feelings, not the begining of such.

One should read, just for info, what Coressi said when he started to print the first book in romanian language, much earlier than XVIII century.

As another point, I never stated that the national feelings apeared to romanians from Middle Ages for the simple reason that I dont have proves in this directions which cant be debatable. This point is valid for most of nations across Europe, not only for romanians.

But probably the "thinking out of box" includes the afirmation from the begining of this topic, about the "unique" case of romanians fighting romanians in ww1? biggrin.gif

PS: foreign historians from a neighbor country denied the profesionalism of Silviu Dragomir and David Prodan as historians for not acusing the romanians for non-combatant victims from 1784 uprising and 1848-1849 romanian revolution from Transylvania. Question: the foreign historians are better profesionals on history fields, cos they didnt mentioned either the romanian non-combatant (civilian) victims from the same events? But this is already out of topic... smile.gif

Posted by: Sebastian January 11, 2010 12:14 pm
hello,

as I said, I would highly appreciate if people who strongly believe that Romanian national identity manifested itself in XVIII, or even XVI century (Michael the Brave), might stop re-inventing the same old national history. It is pointless. I am a Romanianm I have been educated in history classes in this very linear, comfortable, way of thinking about out great national heroes and our great achievements as boderlands of Christianity in defending Europe.

Everything is a myth, even saying that everything is a myth is a myth at the end of the day smile.gif))

For instance, Romanian national identity, beyond language and religion, has been born out the myth of "staying at the frontiers" (Dacians, Daco-Romans against migrators, Roumanians against the Ottomans and Russians, etc.). the problem is that Hungarians, Polish, Serbs, Croatians, Lithuanians, Finns, and Ukrainians claim the same. Nobody is right, because geopolitics is a subject of imagining like anything else.

However, what I am interested in is the way Romanian national identity has been re-enforced out of the real frontier status of some Romanians: transylvanians (greek-catholic) soldiering in the militargraenze of the Habsburgs and, on the other hand, Wallachians and Moldavians soldiering in the Russian created army of the Regulament organique. We should not forget that most of the 1848 leaders of the Wallachia and Moldova revolutions were juncari or cadeti within the Romanian army created by the Russian Empire (Balcescu, Golescu, CA Rosetti, Christian Tell, Kogalniceanu, Cuza, etc.). Some of them (Cuza, Balcescu) even travelled to Transylvania.

As I said, I am writing a PhD dissertation on Romanians' multinational and national military loyalties between 1848-1918. From what I read by now, it is a bullshit to continue to support a very comfortable and linear view of the past. THE PAST IS HOW EVERYONE IS IMAGINING IT, NOT HOW IT REALLY WAS!

P.S. I would appreciate to have names and sources (to quote) about Romanian officers and soldiers that fought loyally in the KuK and were later integrated in the Romanian National Army after 1919. Thanks for all those that can help!

Posted by: Sebastian January 11, 2010 12:20 pm
Short reply for 21 Inf:

- you should never forget that Horia's led uprising' main cause was the huge desire to join the Military Grenze and escape the serv status! Everything beyond this fact is mythology.

Posted by: contras January 11, 2010 03:19 pm
QUOTE
THE PAST IS HOW EVERYONE IS IMAGINING IT, NOT HOW IT REALLY WAS!


Sebastian, I do not agree with many of your statements, and I do not agree with that who is quotted. History it was, it existed, not how you or I are iamginating, it was how it was. There is because we talk one wich other, to discuss, to made proofs, to understand how it was, not how you or I we imagine.

The fact that you are a little disapointed about the fact that
QUOTE
I have been educated in history classes in this very linear, comfortable, way of thinking about out great national heroes and our great achievements as boderlands of Christianity in defending Europe.

do not make you to negate all you learn about your history.
Remember what George Orwell said in his novel, 1984:
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." That it was the learning of history in that times. But do not negate everything, because is the most comfortable.


Posted by: contras January 11, 2010 03:31 pm
QUOTE
For instance, Romanian national identity, beyond language and religion, has been born out the myth of "staying at the frontiers"


I do not agree. Not "staying at the frontieres" has born our national identity. We stayed at the frontieres because of our language and religion. We don't stayed just at the Christianity's frontieres, because at the time we defended ourselves (and Europe) from Turks, Poles, Hungarians, even Russians attacked us from rear, taken parts of our teritories, and later proclaimed that they are theirs. (invented a new history, as I quotted from George Orwell).
Another fact, we, Romanians, were the only latin people remained in zone, surrounded by Slaves and Fino-Ugrics. And that is not enough to consolidate a national identity? Based by language and religion?
If you talked again about myths, look at the Poles, for example: the fact that in sec XVIII they were divided by Russia and Austria, you think was without importance in their upprisings and revolutions, it was without importance in development of a national concience? Or you think their revolutions were without national character at all?

Posted by: 21 inf January 11, 2010 03:38 pm
Sebastian, you should read more about Horea's reasons to rise the peasants. The main reason of the uprising was not the will to join grenz regiments. The main reason was the desire of not to be serfs anymore, which turned really fast in a ethnic reason. The joining to grenz regiments was only a way to escape to be a serf, a legal and peacefull one.

Probably your question marks about elevated national conscience in Apuseni Mountains in XVIII century comes because in the rest of romanian inhabited teritories (at least in Transylvania) was not so visible or at least not so spoken out. The Apuseni Mountains was always a center for uprisings, which turned very fast if was social at the beginings, to a national reasons. I sugest to read about Sofronie monk religious in 1760, the uprising from Campeni from 1782, Horea's uprising from 1784 and the list may go on.

Here are some quotes if needed:

"la anul 1727, cand Romanii de aici [Abrud - note of 21inf] s-au rasculat in contra Ungurilor, au constituit un consiliu comunal romanesc ..." - Ion Russu Abrudeanu, Motii, calvarul unui popor eroic, dar nedreptatit.

The program of Horea's uprising, early november 1784:
1. Poporul român să fie liber de iobăgie.
2. Nobilime să nu mai fie, iar nobilii să plătească dări întocmai ca şi poporul ţăran.
3. Românii să capete arme şi să fie militari, deci înarmare naţională.
4. Pământul nobililor să se împartă la ţărani.

Same source as above. Please compare it with the french revolution programe from 1789.

But these are all off topic, as the topic is the "unique" case of romanians vs romanians in ww1 biggrin.gif







Posted by: Sebastian January 12, 2010 07:24 am
The only ways to escape serfdom in 1784 (in Transylvania) was to become a priest (greek-catholic) or become a grenze. What would you have chosen if illiterate?

Posted by: Victor January 12, 2010 08:39 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 11, 2010 02:14 pm)
P.S. I would appreciate to have names and sources (to quote) about Romanian officers and soldiers that fought loyally in the KuK and were later integrated in the Romanian National Army after 1919. Thanks for all those that can help!

One of the key figures that comes from the top of my head is general Iosif iacobici, who was the Chief of the General Staff and then CO of the 4th Army during late 1941, until he got into a conflict with Antonescu and was sidelined. Another illustrious name is general Ioan Boieriu (or Boeriu), Knight of the Maria Theresa Order.

Other examples are the two WW2 German generals in the Romanian Army: Hugo Schwab and Karl Schmidt. During the the inter-war, general Arthur Phelps also served in the Romanian Army, before resigning and joining the pro-Nazi organizations in Transylvania.

There was an article in Magazin istoric several years ago about the KuK officers integrated into the Romanian Army after the war. Try to find it for more details.

Posted by: dead-cat January 12, 2010 10:23 am
which organisation did he join in Transsylvania? i only read that Phleps joined the 5th SS after leaving the romanian army.

Posted by: Imperialist January 12, 2010 10:29 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ January 10, 2010 04:37 pm)
Therefore, for example, the statement like Michael the Brave somehow 'united' the Rumanians in the three 'Rumanian' territories in 1600 is a historical nonsense. It only serves current politics, nothing else. And so on.

The ethnic ties between Transylvanians, Wallachians and Moldavians were well known at the time. Here's an example:

"The Transylvanians together with the Moldavians and the Wallachians are the ancient Dacians whom the Romans so greatly feared..." [Italian historian Lazaro Soranzo, 1595]



Posted by: Imperialist January 12, 2010 10:41 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 11, 2010 12:14 pm)
For instance, Romanian national identity, beyond language and religion, has been born out the myth of "staying at the frontiers" (Dacians, Daco-Romans against migrators, Roumanians against the Ottomans and Russians, etc.). the problem is that Hungarians, Polish, Serbs, Croatians, Lithuanians, Finns, and Ukrainians claim the same. Nobody is right, because geopolitics is a subject of imagining like anything else.

It wasn't a myth. For example, contemporary historian Richard Knolles clearly perceived Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldova to be "border countries, the bastions of this part of Christianity and very exposed to the fury of our common enemy". I guess he was imagining things. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dénes January 12, 2010 08:01 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 12, 2010 04:29 pm)
QUOTE (Dénes @ January 10, 2010 04:37 pm)
Therefore, for example, the statement like Michael the Brave somehow 'united' the Rumanians in the three 'Rumanian' territories in 1600 is a historical nonsense. It only serves current politics, nothing else. And so on.

The ethnic ties between Transylvanians, Wallachians and Moldavians were well known at the time. Here's an example:

"The Transylvanians together with the Moldavians and the Wallachians are the ancient Dacians whom the Romans so greatly feared..." [Italian historian Lazaro Soranzo, 1595]

I don't know what the Italian author you quoted meant by 'Transylvanians', but certainly Rumanian were only one of the four major ethnic groups (if we count the HUngarians and Seklers separately), and were again certainly in minority at the end of the XVIth Century, the date your quote refers to.

I could not find a source yet for the ethnic composition of Transylvania for that time period, but at the end of the XVth Century, based on estimations, it looked like this:
Magyars 200 000 47%
Rumanians 100 000 24%
Saxons 70 000 16%
Seklers 55 000 13%
Total: approx. 425 000
[Source: Mályusz Elemér: A magyarság és a nemzetiségek Mohács elıtt. = Magyar Mővelıdéstörténet. Bp. é.n. II. 123–124.]

A century later, due to the relative peaceful era, the total number of population rose to aprox. 700 000 - again based on estimates.
[Source:Bakács István: A török hódoltság korának népessége. = Magyarország történeti demográfiája. Bp. 1963. 135–137]
Taking the above figures as starting point, Rumanians were still in clear minority, although probably raising percentage-wise.

So, Imp., what 'ethnic ties' is your quote actually referring to? sad.gif Unless, of course, if all these four nations were descendants of Dacians and Romans.... biggrin.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist January 12, 2010 08:38 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ January 12, 2010 08:01 pm)
I don't know what the Italian author you quoted meant by 'Transylvanians', but certainly Rumanian were only one of the four major ethnic groups (if we count the HUngarians and Seklers separately), and were again certainly in minority at the end of the XVIth Century, the date your quote refers to.

So, Imp., what 'ethnic ties' is your quote actually referring to? sad.gif

Gen. Dénes

What is important in my view is that he points to the common ancestry of the people living in the three different principalities. And common ancestry is the basis of ethnicity, along with common language, religion etc. The fact that not all of the Transylvanians shared or adhered to that common ancestry is clear and good to point out however I don't think it disputes in any way the importance of Soranzo's statement.

Posted by: 21 inf January 13, 2010 04:38 am
I dont want to start again a ping-pong discussion, but figures above about population ethnicity are hard to believe if compared with the next centuries evolution of figures, even considering natality, infantile mortality, natural migration, wars, natural disasters as famine etc. for all ethnicities. For romanians and saxons the figures seems too low, comparing with XVII century and XIX century.

In 1564 only in Arad and Zarand shires (comitate, megye) were 55.000 people, without nobles. Most of this population was romanian.

Source: Traian Mager, Monografia tinutului Halmagiului, 1935.

I'll look for other sources for comparison.

Posted by: Dénes January 13, 2010 06:59 am
21 inf., there is no point for further estimated statistics on the ethnic composition of the people inhabiting Transylvania at that particular time frame - that was not the goal.

My point was addressed to Imp., showing the ethnical diversity of "Transylvanians" and how his quote is either taken out of context or manipulated (what I suspect), or that Italian traveller strangely met only Rumanians during his trip (if he ever set his foot on that land) - less than a quarter of Transylvania's population at that time.
Imp. took the note, case closed (from my side).

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Coincidentally, the ethnic diversity of Transylvania is shown on this very forum, too - over four centuries after that time period! Me, I consider myself a Transylvanian, as probably you too, 21 inf., and possible Dead-Cat as well (although he might regard himself rather as a Banater...).

Posted by: 21 inf January 13, 2010 07:26 am
Ok. I was just surprised by the figures.

Posted by: Imperialist January 13, 2010 09:22 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ January 13, 2010 06:59 am)
My point was addressed to Imp., showing the ethnical diversity of "Transylvanians" and how his quote is either taken out of context or manipulated (what I suspect), or that Italian traveller strangely met only Rumanians during his trip (if he ever set his foot on that land) - less than a quarter of Transylvania's population at that time.
Imp. took the note, case closed (from my side).

Gen. Dénes

Denes, you must have misread what I said.

No, I did not take note or agree with your point that his quote is either taken out of context or manipulated! Your only point was that Transylvania had several ethnicities that would have disagreed with Lazaro's view on the Transylvanians' ancestry and I clearly said that I don't think your post disputes in any way the importance of Soranzo's statement since it's obvious by logical deduction that he is talking about the Romanians in the three principalities.

As for the taken out of context or manipulation suspicions, see for yourself:

user posted image

You can find his book online too.

Posted by: 21 inf January 13, 2010 10:53 am
Denes, I understand what you was saying to Imperialist, I am just amazed how in those centuries romanians were only 25% of all nationalities from Transylvania. Even taking into acount the theories of foreigners (explaining the romanian ethnogenesis in south of Danube) who claim that romanians were coming in great numbers only after XIVth century in Transylvania and greatly multiplied their numbers due to high rate of birth, the figures seems hard to believe. Also for the saxons, the numbers are odd. It is just my curiosity now to confront the info from those hungarian sources with other, if available.

For comparison, the figures for hungarians might look to high, in the light that some historians claims that the number of hungarians decreased dramatically due to heavy fightings against turks. The down of hungarian numbers and increase of romanian numbers are put by some historians (not romanians and most of them adepts of Roesler theory or similar) mainly on 2 reasons: high rate of mortality due to wars (hungarians) and high rate of natality (for romanians).

I realy can't put together now this explanation of foreign historians: the greater number of hungarians vs smaller number of romanians. I supose there it is something wrong with those evaluations and further reseach needed.

Another question is why were declared "recept" only the religions of hungarians, seklers and saxon in XV-XVI century and romanian religion declared only as "tolerated" if romanians were in so low number? Why to bother to discuss in a so important gathering a so unimportant matter as the status of religion of a small ethnicity as were considered (by the mentioned figures) the romanians?

Posted by: dead-cat January 13, 2010 01:40 pm
a XVIth century census is not comparable to a XXth century one. especially not when it comes to completeness or accuracy.
i also doubt the individuals were queried. probably the numbers are an aggregation of parish records forwarded by the local clergy and the distinction was made on religious base.
it's unlikely that every parish was queried, that all those queried gave results and that the results returned were accurate. therefore the numbers might be distorsed by a certain margin. but certainly, the percentage of hungarians was higher than today.

Posted by: contras January 13, 2010 02:23 pm
In a letter written by Inochentie Micu Klein to the Austrian emperorr, dated in 1735, he mentioned the fact that Romanian nation is more numerous like any other nation in Transylvania.
I do not understand how Hungarians decreased in two centuries in a half. Deceased by wars were Romanians too, if you take a look at every battle in Transylvania against Turks or any kind, Romanians were part of it, too.

Posted by: 21 inf January 13, 2010 03:38 pm
QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 13, 2010 01:40 pm)
a XVIth century census is not comparable to a XXth century one. especially not when it comes to completeness or accuracy.
i also doubt the individuals were queried. probably the numbers are an aggregation of parish records forwarded by the local clergy and the distinction was made on religious base.
it's unlikely that every parish was queried, that all those queried gave results and that the results returned were accurate. therefore the numbers might be distorsed by a certain margin. but certainly, the percentage of hungarians was higher than today.

Of course that the censuses from diferent centuries are not the same as results.

Even so, my question regarding the "recept" and "tolerated" religions still stands: why in 1568 the important, powerfull and wealthy nobles and patricians of hungarian, sekler and saxon nations from Transylvania bother to discuss the religious oficial status of a small nation (if it really was so small), iliterate one, considered eretic by the time standards, with no major or medium nobility, no economic power, a nation of serfs, not very diferent from slaves??


The other idea discused: Giving the fact that the "census" could be made by asking the parishes to give their numbers, it is very posible in that case that the ortodox parishes were not contributing to "census" by the simply fact that they were not asked. They were under autority of serb ortodox church and romanian ortodox priest were no more than serfs, so they were not well regarded. Ortodox romanian priest were considered serfs, no more than semi-iliterate serfs, they even paid the same taxes as romanian serfs and they rarely colaborated with land autorities, being them noblemen, landlord or the ruler of the country.

Again as a curiosity, dead-cat, on what sources are you refering when you said that certanly percentage of hungarians was higher than today? And if so, how much higher your sources point the percentage was?

Posted by: dead-cat January 13, 2010 05:12 pm
QUOTE

Even so, my question regarding the "recept" and "tolerated" religions still stands: why in 1568 the important, powerfull and wealthy nobles and patricians of hungarian, sekler and saxon nations from Transylvania bother to discuss the religious oficial status of a small nation (if it really was so small), iliterate one, considered eretic by the time standards, with no major or medium nobility, no economic power, a nation of serfs, not very diferent from slaves??

they already did after the peasant revolt of 1437.
QUOTE

Again as a curiosity, dead-cat, on what sources are you refering when you said that certanly percentage of hungarians was higher than today? And if so, how much higher your sources point the percentage was?

comon sense and post-ww1 demographics. after ww1 a number of hungarians left Transsylvania for what was left of Hungary. On the other hand there was (just as in Banat) a net migration from the other provinces.
QUOTE

The other idea discused: Giving the fact that the "census" could be made by asking the parishes to give their numbers, it is very posible in that case that the ortodox parishes were not contributing to "census" by the simply fact that they were not asked.

perhaps they were, perhaps not, or perhaps partially. i have no way to know. i don't even know the degree of contribution of the parish records to the census results. perhaps there was input from the local lords. unless the methodology is specified somewhere, there is no way to know. that is precisely what i had in mind when i said that a XVIth century census is not comparable to a XXth century one.


Posted by: 21 inf January 13, 2010 06:07 pm
Ok, dead-cat, it is ok, i was just looking for some proofs to sustain a common sense answer, something more particular or researchable. For the sake of the discussion, as you told above, there it is not a good way to compare situation on diferent centuries, so the facts which inflenced post-ww1 demographic structure in Transylvania are not the same as in Middle Age.

I didnt related the discussion with Unio Trium Nationum from 1437, but with the declaration from Turda from 1568, the declaration of freedom of religion issued by representatives of hungarians, saxons and seklers. As we reached the subject, Unio Trium Nationum was at the very begining a union between noblemen (disregarding nationality, which included romanian nobles), seklers and saxons against serfs (disregarding nationality) and turkish danger. In romanian acception from today, most of romanians are teached that UTN was an aliance between hungarians, saxons and seklers against romanians, which a little bit more wrong as a historical fact.

Posted by: contras January 13, 2010 08:21 pm
Excuse me, but I think the discussion is far away from the topic. The topic is about Romanians vs. Romanians. But I really believe that this debate must be put in other topic, because is more important. About the facts, I really don't believe that in any part of history, Romanians were minoritar in Transylvania. That theory is whitout sense. I came here with one fact, such important, and every time lesser in debates.

When they came in Europe, Hungarians had a major problem, like other migrated peoples. The number of them. They were so few in number, that they cannot dominate the land that they occupied. They're suuces in battles was not the result of number, but the result of superior tactics, based on raiding the enemy and put him on the arrows throhwn by their powerfull bows. The chronics said about huns, magyars, and other invaders that they cannot be defeated in battle, because when the battle was wheights against them, they running away and attacked in other part of the front battle. It was another way to wage the war, a way that European people was not abble to support.

Their reduced number is the origin of their tactics, when they tried to conquer Transylvania, and other territories. They sustain a battle against one local lord, and if defeated him, the defeated became a vasal, and later, year by year, they imposed more rules, more landlord of the land, and later tried to became predominant in the rulers class. To conquer Transylvania they need two centuries, and they become predominant only on the ruler class, the nobles. The rest, the servants, were always a majority, and they were Romanians, even if were settled many colonists on the frontiers (szekels, saxons).
Population majority were the Romanians. It's the only logical explanation of the results of census made later.

Posted by: 21 inf January 14, 2010 03:21 am
Contras, you are right: the discussion turned off-topic. If you want to open another topic to discuss the matter, i'll join.

Posted by: Sebastian January 14, 2010 07:56 am
The topic is indeed different, but is nice to read how hot the debates still are regarding the ethnic diversity in Transylvania in XIV-XV-XVI century, in a period when these people did not even think aboyt themselves in terms of ethnicity. Again, history is what we make of it, or a great instance between use and abuse of history.

I would still appreciate your help with names of people from Transylvania and Bukovina, who loyally fought for Emperor in WWI, and later joined, or were rejected, by the Romanian national army in 1919. I would appreciate names with people who either refused (I have few) or were rejected by the Roumanian military authorities out of reasons of treason or just lack of trust.

Posted by: Imperialist January 14, 2010 09:04 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 14, 2010 07:56 am)
The topic is indeed different, but is nice to read how hot the debates still are regarding the ethnic diversity in Transylvania in XIV-XV-XVI century, in a period when these people did not even think aboyt themselves in terms of ethnicity.

It's not clear to me whether by " did not even think aboyt themselves in terms of ethnicity" you mean they were aware of ethnicity but did not attach to it the significant political importance it was to gain in the 19th century (emergence of nationalism) or whether you mean they had no clue of ethnicity. If you mean the first thing, I agree. If you mean the second, I disagree.

If they were not aware of their ethnicity, how come Hungarian chronicler Mathias Miles writes in Siebenburgischer Wurg-Engel Chronicle (1670) referring to the events after the Battle of Selimbar:

"Wie bald dass Gerucht von Michaelis Siege ins Land ausschallette, haben sich zuhand die Wallachen vnsers Landes zusammen rottieret und heimlig auch offentlig der Edler Leute Gutter und Hoffe auffgeschlagen unnd vill ihre Herren ermordet..."

"As soon as the rumor spread throughout the country about Michael's victory, immediately the Wallachians from this country gathered together and both secretly and openly attacked the lands and courts of the nobles and killed many of their owners."

Posted by: 21 inf January 14, 2010 11:24 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 14, 2010 07:56 am)
The topic is indeed different, but is nice to read how hot the debates still are regarding the ethnic diversity in Transylvania in XIV-XV-XVI century, in a period when these people did not even think aboyt themselves in terms of ethnicity. Again, history is what we make of it, or a great instance between use and abuse of history.

I would still appreciate your help with names of people from Transylvania and Bukovina, who loyally fought for Emperor in WWI, and later joined, or were rejected, by the Romanian national army in 1919. I would appreciate names with people who either refused (I have few) or were rejected by the Roumanian military authorities out of reasons of treason or just lack of trust.

Simion Ghişa, former AH oficer, borned in Transylvania, served in romanian army during ww1, from aprox. 1917 until aprox. 1924-1925 as sublocotenent.

Posted by: Sebastian January 14, 2010 01:32 pm
For imperialist:

I mean they did not have any ethnic allegiance, because there was nothing like this in the entire Europe. "Wallachian" is not Romanian in ethnic sense. Sorry to tell you this!


For 21Inf:
thank you very much. Do you have any reference (memoir, journal, book, articles) about his experience of transfering from an imperial to a national army?

Posted by: Dénes January 14, 2010 03:26 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 13, 2010 03:22 pm)
As for the taken out of context or manipulation suspicions, see for yourself:

Thanks, Imp., for the facsimile. This clarifies the manipulation issue. However, the 'taken out of context' claim - in my opinion - still stands.
If I understand it correctly, when talking of 'Transylvanians', the chronicle mentions by name 'Coruinus' (probably John or more possibly Matthias Corvinus) and two 'Battories' (i.e., Báthory) – all are hardly Rumanians. biggrin.gif
Therefore, Soranzo apparently does not take into consideration the ’Transylvanians’ diverse ethnicity – quite natural for those times, when this detail didn't really count, just as I’ve said.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf January 14, 2010 04:05 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 14, 2010 01:32 pm)
For 21Inf:
thank you very much. Do you have any reference (memoir, journal, book, articles) about his experience of transfering from an imperial to a national army?

S. Ghişe's memoires dont speak about the transition from AH oficer to romanian oficer.

Another former AH oficer, also from Transylvania, is the well known Octavian Tăslăuanu. He was in Galitien with AH army, wounded, came back to Transylvania to recover from wounds and crossed the romanian border from Carpathians on his own, alone. He left sanatorium as he was going to short trip around and took the way toward Romanian border, passing it into Romania. Arived in Romania before 1916, he was not enlisted in romanian army as he was citizen of AH monarchy (ok, Denes, I know there were austrian OR hungarian citizens, but I dont know what O.T. was biggrin.gif ). After 1916, in some moment, he was enlisted in romanian army.

Other oficers were Elie Bufnea, one Nemoianu; I'll have to look in my books to remember the others.

Posted by: contras January 14, 2010 05:30 pm
Maybe the first Transylvanian oficer who was enlisted in Romanian army during ww1 is Bogdan Florian. In that time, leaders of Romanian army were look carefully at the volunteers from AH monarchy, because they feared espionage. Florian estabilish an comitee where all the volunteers were verificated, and later were integrated in Romanian army.
As an example, Octav Taslauanu was not accepted in romanian army immediatelly, only later. In 1914 he publicised his book, Trei luni pe campul de rasboiu, about his experience in Galicia, when he mentioned about firefights on front with Bassarabians, between 9-11 September 1914.

Posted by: Imperialist January 14, 2010 05:50 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 14, 2010 01:32 pm)
For imperialist:

I mean they did not have any ethnic allegiance, because there was nothing like this in the entire Europe. "Wallachian" is not Romanian in ethnic sense. Sorry to tell you this!

The perception of ethnicity existed in Europe at that time. It was based on common language, common customs, religion, identification with a common past/lineage.

You might call it an "incipient perception of ethnicity" in the sense that it certainly did not reach today's levels given the differences in education, means of mass communication, etc. And you can argue it might not have played the defining political role it was to play in the 19th or 20th centuries. But from that to saying it was a myth or nonsense is a big unscientifical leap imo.

Your second statement on the term Wallachian is very puzzling so could you please clarify it. Are you saying the term Wallachian denoted a different ethnicity? Some sources would be appreciated too.

For Denes:

I agree with your basic point concerning the more complex ethnic make-up of Transylvania. But what's important is what Soranzo does. He talks about the common origin of the inhabitants of three principalities. Common origins is one of the elements of ethnicity.

He was wrong in saying all Transylvanians had that origing.
However, even that wrong statement raises interesting possibilities.
Either Romanians were the majority there (but that's another topic already touched) so he made a blanket statement based on that. Or he must have heard it from somewhere. And unless some nationalist Romanian traveled back in time to tell that to Soranzo, he must have heard it from a cotemporary Wallachian, Moldovan or Romanian-ethnic Transylvanian or he must have read an even earlier account. So even this tells a lot about the perception of ethnicity in those times.

Posted by: contras January 14, 2010 07:03 pm
Maybe the most important oficer who was an AH oficer and later became general in Romanian army, was general Traian Mosoiu. He was born in Brasov county, absolved in 1889 Military School "Wiener Neustadt" and he was send to the regiment. At the begining of XX century, he crossed the Carphatians and joined Romanian army. In 1916, at battle of Sibiu, he was division comander, as general. He fought at Marasti, and he led the army who entered Transylvani in 1918. Later, in 1919 war, he was in comand of Northern Group of Transylvanian army. Later, he became Ministry of Defence, later Ministry of Communications and Ministry of Industry.

Posted by: 21 inf January 14, 2010 07:35 pm
How could I forget about Traian Mosoiu!!! biggrin.gif Indeed he was the most respect romanian oficer from former AH ones. I know one of his nephews.

Posted by: contras January 14, 2010 07:39 pm
Has he some momories written? I looked in libraries, at the authors, but I found none. I looked on the bibliography in pre ww2 books and quotes, and none again.

Posted by: 21 inf January 14, 2010 08:08 pm
I dont know if he wrote his memoires, but I have somewhere some books about him, written recently, after year 2000, but I have to look after them, so it'll take a while.

Posted by: Sebastian January 14, 2010 09:44 pm
Thank you very much guys, and I highly appreciate we can stay focused on the topic.

Of course I knew about the famous names such as Iacobici, Boeriu, Iuliu Maniu (he had no intention to join the Roumanian army) or Silviu de Herbay (who was not accepted in the Romanian Army and eventually became the president of the "U" Cluj football club, a symbol of the Roumanian nation-affirmed in sports - very interesting as case study).

However, I would highly appreciate if you could tell me, if you ever heard about those who were not accepted by the Roumanian Army, and especially those who did not want to live in Roumania.

P.S.
For imperialist: Everything that you mentioned are clearly features for a "nascent" ethnic identity, but still is not ethnicity. What I mean is that they have a perception of commonalities, but they never called it ethnicity. Ethnicity is what we make of it in nowadays talking about them. regarding "Wallachians", just search in a serious dictionary the etimology of the term ... see if you can find similar items, such as volohi, olasz, vlach, vlah, etc. It is a geographical denominator used for groups (even others that we call today Roumanians), not a ethnic denominator.

Summing up, thanks again for trying to help me with names.

Posted by: Imperialist January 14, 2010 11:53 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 14, 2010 09:44 pm)
P.S.
For imperialist: Everything that you mentioned are clearly features for a "nascent" ethnic identity, but still is not ethnicity. What I mean is that they have a perception of commonalities, but they never called it ethnicity. Ethnicity is what we make of it in nowadays talking about them. regarding "Wallachians", just search in a serious dictionary the etimology of the term ... see if you can find similar items, such as volohi, olasz, vlach, vlah, etc. It is a geographical denominator used for groups (even others that we call today Roumanians), not a ethnic denominator.

Personally I don't care how they called it as long as they perceived its fundamentals and were aware of its presence. Contemporaries were also aware that it was a factor in the political equation. Sure, not having the weight it would obtain centuries later, but it was there, a part of the equation. So Michael's conquest of the three principalities is not completely unrelated to the ethnic factor.

Regarding the term Wallachians. From what I know (and this has been debated before some years ago on the forum) Wallachia was the foreigners' term for Tara Romaneasca (Romanian(s) country), and it derives from the ethnonym Vlachs/Wallachians/etc. There is no question that Vlachs/Wallachians refers to the Romanian ethnicity.

Posted by: Sebastian January 15, 2010 06:13 am
Imperialist:
this is my last post on this issue. I am glad you have such powerful convictions. I am a Romanian as well, but I am much more skeptical towards powerful convictions and a linear understanding of history.

I personally believe much more in "accidents", unintended consequences, and negotiated identities rather than linear, pozitivistic approaches.

This is why I am so interested in uncovering situations and personal dramas that do not belong to this very linear and classic approach of Romanian history: Roumanian officers that fought in XX Century for 'foreign causes", Romanians that were loyal to both the nation and the surrounding empires, Roumanians that did not accept the idea of Great Romania, Romanians that were rejected by Romanian institutions (the Army) after 1918, namely those cases that until today have been called "traitors" (see the case of "germanofili" in WWI), etc.

Posted by: Dénes January 15, 2010 06:19 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 15, 2010 03:44 am)
regarding "Wallachians", just search in a serious dictionary the etimology of the term ... see if you can find similar items, such as volohi, olasz, vlach, vlah, etc.

Out of curiosity, I checked Encyclopaedia Britannica, the most serious English language reference source in my view.

There is no separate term for Wallachians, or Walachians, but there is one for Vlachs, also mentioned in your list of synonymes (but it's not exactly the way you've said):

ARTICLE from the Encyclopædia Britannica

European ethnic group constituting a major element in the populations of Romania and Moldova and a smaller proportion of the population in the southern part of the Balkan Peninsula and south and west of the Danube River. The name Vlach derives from a German or Slav term for Latin speakers.


The Vlachs, who call themselves Aromani or Arman, first appear in the historical record during the Middle Ages, primarily in the region south of the Balkans. They traditionally claim to be descendants of the Romans who in the 2nd century bce occupied ancient Macedonia and what is now northern and northeastern Greece and who by the 2nd century ce occupied Dacia, a Roman province located in Transylvania and the Carpathian Mountains of present-day Romania. After the Romans evacuated Dacia (271 ce), the area was subjected to a series of barbarian invasions. According to some scholars, the Romanized Dacians remained in the area, probably taking refuge in the Carpathian Mountains. They remained there for several centuries as shepherds and farmers, until conditions settled and they returned to the plains.

The Romanized Dacian population may have moved south of the Danube when the Romans left Dacia. After the barbarian invasions subsided, the Vlachs, seen in this theory as a later group of immigrants, moved into the area from their Romanized homelands south of the Danube or elsewhere in the Balkans. This theory cites the major role the Vlachs played in the formation and development of the Second Bulgarian Empire (also known as the Empire of Vlachs and Bulgars; founded 1184) as evidence that the centre of the Vlach population had shifted south of the Danube.

By the 13th century the Vlachs were reestablished in the lands north of the Danube, including ... (300 of 829 words)


Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf January 15, 2010 01:26 pm
Well, REAAAALLY stupid from the part of British Encyclopedia to write this about romanian ethnogenesis.

It is futile to start a discussion around this big stupidity coming from so well known scientific work as BE and it is disapointing to see this.

Posted by: Imperialist January 15, 2010 02:08 pm
Denes, there are discrepancies between the online version you present and the entry I have in my Encyclopaedia Britannica. Here is the entry I found:

QUOTE
Vlach, also called ROMANIAN, OR RUMAN, member of a European people constituting the major element in the populations of Romania and Moldova, as well as smaller groups located throughout the Balkan Peninsula, south and west of the Danube River.

Although their Slav neighbours gave them the name Volokh, from which the term Vlach is derived, the Vlachs call themselves Romani, Romeni, Rumeni, or Aromani.


Compare that to the entry you posted which strangely limits itself to saying they call themselves Aromani alone.

As for the rest of the entry, Enc. Britannica makes a combo of the 4 main theories regarding the place where the Romanians' ethnogenesis took place. But it does it a bit superficially (likely out of the need to be brief) and it might confuse the casual foreign reader that is not familiar with the subject.

Posted by: Dénes January 15, 2010 03:24 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 15, 2010 08:08 pm)
Denes, there are discrepancies between the online version you present and the entry I have in my Encyclopaedia Britannica.

I did not realise that. Indeed, they should clean up the entries and streamline the info.

QUOTE
Compare that to the entry you posted which strangely limits itself to saying they call themselves Aromani alone.


The quote I found actually calls for two names, not one: "The Vlachs, who call themselves Aromani or Arman..."

Gen. Dénes

P.S. By the way, I did not know Armani had Vlach roots laugh.gif

Posted by: Dénes January 17, 2010 10:56 am
Sebastian, here is a list of ex-k.u.k. airmen who enrolled into ARR (table taken from an article I wrote back in 1990, published in the Hungarian aviation magazine, Aero História):

user posted image

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Sebastian January 19, 2010 04:11 pm
Thank you very much Denes. But what is "ARR"?

I found a very interesting source regarding all those that enrolled in the Romanian National Army after 1918. Everybody from general to non-commissioned officer.

However, I would still appreciate names of Roumanians who applied and who were rejected by the Romanian Army or the civiliam state institutions after 1918. Or those officers (Romanians, Hungarians, Szekely, Germans) who did not want to return and live in Greater Romania.

Thanks again Denes. Could you provide me with the full quoation of the source (issue, no., place of publication, exact title, pages)?

Posted by: 21 inf January 19, 2010 04:16 pm
ARR is abreviation for Aviatia Regala Romana.

Posted by: Sebastian January 19, 2010 04:18 pm
For Denes:

sorry, I forgot to mention the case of General George (Gheorghe) Pomut/Pomutz. He was a Romanian from Gyula, he fought in the Hungarian national army, he was close to Kossuth. In 1949 he managed to evade. Eventually he arrived in USA where he fought in the US Civil War. Then he became a US General.

The reason I mention to you this name is that you might probably remember other cases (Romanians) who in 1848 were part of the Hungarian national army organized by Kossuth. As in the case of WWI, Romanian historians avoid the "non-linear" cases, the rebels, the outliers. I would appreciate if you could provide me any other names (with sources).

If I could be of any help to your research, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Posted by: Sebastian January 19, 2010 04:21 pm
Thanks. I was confused because usually it is called Aviatia Militara Regala Romana. However, acronyms will always give us headaches us, don't they? K.u.K did it once smile.gif

Posted by: 21 inf January 20, 2010 03:55 am
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 19, 2010 04:18 pm)
For Denes:

sorry, I forgot to mention the case of General George (Gheorghe) Pomut/Pomutz. He was a Romanian from Gyula, he fought in the Hungarian national army, he was close to Kossuth. In 1949 he managed to evade. Eventually he arrived in USA where he fought in the US Civil War. Then he became a US General.

The reason I mention to you this name is that you might probably remember other cases (Romanians) who in 1848 were part of the Hungarian national army organized by Kossuth. As in the case of WWI, Romanian historians avoid the "non-linear" cases, the rebels, the outliers. I would appreciate if you could provide me any other names (with sources).

If I could be of any help to your research, please do not hesitate to contact me.

In 1848 it was very rare the cases of romanians who joined hungarian army or militia by their own will. The most cases were drafted by force and their numbers reached as many as almost 3000 men, other sources mentioned even more, but all drafted by force and with a very high rate of desertion.

G. Pomut was a romanian who joined hungarian army due to his hungarian education and fought in a army of which the political leader declared to romanians from Transylvania total extermination if dont comply with hungarian revolutionary programe, which was against romanian (from Transylvania) revolutionary and national goals.

Kossuth himself was not ethnic hungarian by born, he was a magyarised slovak who ended fighting in hungarian revolution against his own slovak people (and other nationalities too, as romanians, serbs, croats and so on).

I dont want to inflame the spirits, but I wouldn't blame the historians, whatever their nationality, who dont speak about their conationals who fought against their own national interest, voluntarily. In my opinion, the case of G. Pomut is showing like this: he is romanian ethnic only by birth, but by his deeds in 1848 revolution he is not romanian, fighting voluntary on the enemy side. He was a hungarian soldier by his own choice and later an american one.

The same manner judged the austrians back in 1848 with the austrian ethnics who joined hungarian army voluntarily. At Arad in 1849 some of the 13 oficers executed by austrian army were austrian ethnics, some of them high ranking officers and even nobles, but they were considered traitors and punished for this. (Actually from all 13 oficers very few, maybe only 2 or 3 were hungarian by born, the rest were of other ethnicity, but they were always considered all as being hungarians because they adhered to hungarian revolution goals with great enthusiasm).

The same case probably regarding ww1 romanian ethnic oficers from AH army who enthusiastical fought for AH monarchy.

Of course, others may have different opinions, which is their right do to so.

Posted by: Victor January 20, 2010 09:10 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 19, 2010 06:16 pm)
ARR is abreviation for Aviatia Regala Romana.

Actually it stands for Aeronautica Regala Romana.

Posted by: 21 inf January 20, 2010 05:34 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ January 20, 2010 09:10 am)
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 19, 2010 06:16 pm)
ARR is abreviation for Aviatia Regala Romana.

Actually it stands for Aeronautica Regala Romana.

My bad, sorry.

Posted by: Sebastian January 21, 2010 06:13 am
21 inf:

You do not inflame any spirits. It is your right to believe that historians in XXI century should still hide under the carpet the "unusual" cases. But it is also the the right of others to uncover it. Otherwise the history will remain linear.

In 1848 we have a real tragedy among people in Transylvania. There were Hungarians and Germans that supported or even joined the Romanian movement. There were, on the other hand, Romanians who chose to join the Hungarian revolutionary ideas. Liviu Maior called this tragedy "the crisis of loyalties". There were actual fights (with deaths and injured) between those who were loyal to the Emperor and those who were loyal to the King (of Hungarians). It seems they forgot the Emperor and the King were one and the same person.

However, this is part of history and should not be neglected by all historians.

Posted by: 21 inf January 21, 2010 06:40 am
Sebastian, I did not believe that nowadays one should put under the carpet the unusual cases from the past. I just cant see the reasons to speak beside romanian goals from Transylvania the cases of such romanians as Pomut who totaly identify themselfes with foreign goals, in this case the hungarian one. By his atitude, it is clear that he gave up his ethnicity and nationality. He can be discussed, but in my opinion in other subjects, not the national one.

Of course that in 1848 there were hungarians who fought on romanian side, but in little number and they joined, of course, for social reasons. I found a list of hungarians executed by hungarian revolutionary army because they fought on romanian side.

There were also a small number of germans (mainly saxons) who fought in the ranks of romanian militia, as it were romanians who fought in hungarian ranks, by their own will or forced. The cases are not so relevant by numbers of by deeds, doesnt matter if they are hungarians, romanians or saxons.

I doubt about the fidelity of all nations toward the austrian emperor, excepting maybe the saxons. Hungarians raised their army and militia to get rid of the austrian rule. Romanians allied with austrians in 1848 because otherwise they were alone. We romanians are so naive to believe that austrians punished us for nothing after 1849, because we forget that at Blaj romanians declared "We want the union with the Country" (Noi vrem sa ne unim cu Tara). What kind of fidelity is that toward austrian emperor? None. Romanians dreamed to a romanian country together with the romanians across Carpathians, even the late themselves didnt had yet a country. It was only a custom union in 1842 between Moldavia and Wallachia. Romanians from Transylvania didnt lost the 1848 revolution on military ground, but on political ground. Hungarians lost their war from freedom from 1848, but soon get some political victories, mainly in and after 1867.

Posted by: contras January 26, 2010 08:29 am
QUOTE
P.S. I would appreciate to have names and sources (to quote) about Romanian officers and soldiers that fought loyally in the KuK and were later integrated in the Romanian National Army after 1919. Thanks for all those that can help!


Another example is general Ion Dragalina, KIA on 9 November 1916, at Jiu. He was born in 1860 in Caransebes, graduated Military Academy in Viena, and in 1887 crossed the frontier and joined Romanian Army. Between 1908 and 1911, he was lt.-col. and comander of Military School in Bucarest.

Posted by: Victor January 26, 2010 03:33 pm
Sebastian was referring actually to officers that served in the KuK Army during WW1 and then joined the Romanian Army after the war.

Posted by: Sebastian January 26, 2010 07:41 pm
For contras:

Thank you very much for Dragalina. I knew the case. Recently, editura Militara has published a great biography of him, written by one of his relatives. A great example: militar graenze descendancy, loyal to the Emperor, but moves to Romania.

For all others: I found a great source of information regarding the rest of the Romanians that were co-opted in the Romanian Armes Forces after 1919. The source is called Anuarul ofiterilor activi ai Armatei Romane. I got the 1920 edition (not complete) and the 1925 edition. The Anuarul was brought to my attention by a great person, prof. Nicolae Balint. He also has a great blog. In Anuarul you can find all the officers, from division generals (Danila Papp, by the way, do you know whether he left any memoirs or journals?) down to lieutenants.

Now I would like to ask you about those who were rejected or those who denied (refused) to be part of the Romanian Army after 1919. There should be names and cases of these kind of people. I do believe they are also part of Romanian history.

Thanks in anticipation.

P.S. 1) Regarding other interesting cases. I found, for instance that Christian Tell (a major figure in 1848 and after in Muntenia) was an officer in the Ottoman Army. He fought as Ottoman officer againts the Russians in 1828-1829, and in 1830 he enrolled in the Militia Pamanteana (Land Militia) organized by Gen. Kisseleff. Then he became a strong nationalist. This is a real interesting destiny: in less than 20 years he is an officer in no less than three armies, following no less than three allegiances/loyalties. Do you know other similar cases among Romanians.
2) Anatol Lescu, the historian from Moldova who published a great book few years ago (Romanians in the Russian Imperial Army) published (again at ed. Militara) a new book about the supranational loyalties of Moldovans from Bessarabia.

Posted by: ANDREAS January 26, 2010 08:29 pm
Hallo,
Even if this exemple of an ex-KuK Army officer is not at all honorable, and I am sure no telling for most officers coming from Austro-Hungarian Army, it is on the subject however... I quote
"Mircea Haupt s-a născut la data de 7 aprilie 1899 în localitatea Rodna Veche (judeţul Bistriţa Năsăud). A urmat studii militare la Şcoala de Ofiţeri de Infanterie Kassa (1915-1917). După absolvirea Şcolii de Ofiţeri, a fost încadrat ca sublocotenent în armata austro-ungară, iar după dezmembrarea Imperiului Austro-Ungar, devine ofiţer în Armata Română (1919). Urcă pe rând treptele ierarhiei militare, fiind comandant de pluton, companie şi batalion. A fost înaintat la gradele de locotenent (1923), căpitan (1929) şi apoi maior (1939)." Source Wikipedia.
For the readers who ask why not honorable, read further about his fulminant career after the communist regime came to power. And for the one who still had doubts, please read on the page 404 of the book "Tancuri in flacari" -Ion S. Dumitru, Ed. Nemira 1999, the writer opinion about that commanding officer.

Posted by: Victor January 27, 2010 07:33 am
For those who do not have access to the book in question, Mircea Haupt was the deputy commander of the Tudor Vladimirescu Division (Soviet unit formed from Romanian POWs).

Posted by: Sebastian January 27, 2010 03:02 pm
Hello Andreas:

the quotation is from the Nemira's book? It is still available in bookshops?

On the other hand, I do not think we should be ashamed of these people. They did what they believe is correct, or, even worse, they did what they believed will suit best their personal interests. Loyalty has two main features: pure and hypocritical smile.gif

Posted by: ANDREAS January 27, 2010 09:47 pm
Hello Sebastian,
to answer you, no, the quotation is from Wikipedia. The book was only the trigger of my interest on the officer in question, of course because his german name. And the fact that a german officer could make a military career in full Soviet occupation time.
About that book, I saw it in bookstores in December last year...

Posted by: contras January 28, 2010 09:59 am
About this topic, Cassian R. Munteanu, ex-k.u.k. soldier in 1914 tells in his memories about fightings between Romanians in AH army against Romanians from Banat, enlisted in Serb army.

Posted by: Sebastian January 28, 2010 01:53 pm
Thank you very much Andreas. I found also the Wiki reference.

Contras: could you, please, tell me the reference (title, year, publishing house) of Cassian R. Munteanu Memoirs because on the BCU Bucuresti website I found only a book written by him, "Batalia de la Marasesti". I believe this is very interesting. I have some materials that mention the direct fights between Romanians and Romanians, but I did not know about this reference.

Thanks in advance.

If you know other references and names that mention this, I would appreciate to tell me about it.

Posted by: contras January 28, 2010 07:34 pm
I found it in Proba focului, vol 1, by Ion Pavelescu, Adrian Pandea and Eftimie Ardeleanu, edit. Globus, 1991. I found these references at page 311, but at the bibliography I found just the book you mentined, Batalia de la Marasesti. I'll try to find it and take a look, maybe there are mentioned these facts. Cassian Munteanu, deserted from AH army and join Romanian army. maybe he mentioned here his experiences in AH army.

Posted by: Sebastian January 28, 2010 08:58 pm
Thank you very much.
There are so many spread referenced about these people and their experience such that I am thinking now to an edited book about them. It is so unpleasant that nobody cared about these people in order to edit all their experiences together. For few years I am bringing together material about these people. I am reading for few months this great forum and I think that the soldiers and officers that are fighting now in Afghanistan, or fought in Iraq, or will fight in the future in other expeditionary missions, would find a book like this very useful, especially in learning how to understand the local situation, with people broken among so many loyalties.

Besides, we still do not know enough about:

1) Romanians that fought for the Russian Imperial and Soviet armies,
2) Romanians from Bukowina that fought along the Romanians from Transylvania in the KuK.
3) Aromanians that fought in KuK, Serbian and Bulgarian armies against each other.
4) Romanians from the Ottoman army that fought against the Romanian and Russian armies in 1877-1878.
5) Romanians from the Russian Imperial army fighting against Romanians and Aromanians from the Ottoman armies.

I found few very interesting cases, such as Nicolae Iorga's grand-grandfather, Ilias Colceag, Constantin Cantemir and few others. Do you know any other names? I mentioned the case of Christian Tell, who was born in the Habsburg Empire (Brasov), enrolled in the Ottoman army, and then fought in the Russian Army, the Reglement Organique' "militia pamanteana", and then to become a string nationalist.

Posted by: contras January 28, 2010 09:19 pm
About Constantin Cantemir I read in a book entitled Romanii in armata imperiala rusa, there you can find many others Romanians who were serving in Tsarist army.

You can take a look at opposing situation, I think will be very interesting, about other nationalities who fought in Romanian army, not Romanians.
I remember about an Russian artillery captain mentioned by Simion Ghise in his memories, who was fighting in Kolceak army in siberia side by side with Romanian troops, and retreated with them to Vladivostok and came to Romania where he enlisted in Romanian army.
In same memories is related the case of colonel Bognatov, Romanian from Basarabia, who fought in Kolceak army and later whas imprisoned by Bolsheviks, and maybe executed, Ghise didn't know because he leaves the area.

Posted by: Dénes February 06, 2010 10:16 pm
QUOTE (Sebastian @ January 19, 2010 10:11 pm)
Thanks again Denes. Could you provide me with the full quoation of the source (issue, no., place of publication, exact title, pages)?

Sorry for the late answer. Here is the info on the magazine in which my article was published. Title of article (in English): The first campaign of ARR in Hungary. 1st Part (Nov. 1918-March 1919). Hu ISSN 0238-7905, published in Dec. 1990 in Budapest.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: contras March 05, 2010 08:12 pm
I don't know if he was mentioned earlier, but general Ion Dragalina (KIA in 1916 at Jiu), was born in Banat county, in Caransebes. For his biography, look here:

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Dragalina

Posted by: Klemen April 18, 2010 01:23 am
Has anyone here any information about the fate of Vasile Barbu and Avram P. Todor? Both were former k.u.k. officers, who from what I could determine remained loyal to the monarchy until the end of the war and later enlisted into the Royal Romanian Army. Well, Vasile Barbu at least since I have found a small note that he became a brigadier-general in the Royal Romanian Army after the war. He wrote an unpublished manuscript called "The Military History of Romanian Population in Transilyania", in which he also analyzed the status and numbers of Romanian officers in the k.u.k. Army. He writes that during the war there were three generals (Boeriu, Papp and Domasneanu), 15 colonels (Hanzu, Sandru, Ienachie, Bacila, Bihoi, Cena, Iovescu, Lugojanu, Lupu, Mataranga, Muica, Memesoiu, Bunasiu, Dr. Moga from Arad and Dr. Moga from Sibiu) and 12 lieutenant-colonels (Iacobici, Ilcusiu, Hidu, Bordan, Savu, Stroia, Barbu, M. Serb, T. Serb, Pacala, Vlad and Ivascu) in the k.u.k. Army during Great War 1914-1918. Twelve of them apparently reached the rank of general in the Royal Romanian Army, including Barbu.

For more details about this manuscript we would need someone in Alba Iulia. biggrin.gif

I am especially interested about this Lt.Col. Vlad. I have found in my notes one Major VLAD, who commanded the IV. Battalion of the Steirischen Freiwilligen Schuetzen in 1917 on the Isonzo Front and was even recommended for the Military Order of Maria Theresia.

Also interesting would be to look into Avram P. Todor's memoirs. He served as Oblt. and Hptm in k.u.k. IR.64 during the war. I am not 100% sure whether he was accepted into the Royal Romanian Army after 1919, but he did appear to write the unpublished regimental history of k.u.k. IR.64 during 1914-1918.

Another manuscript which we will probably never laid our eyes on. sad.gif unsure.gif

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: 21 inf April 18, 2010 04:57 am
QUOTE (Klemen @ April 18, 2010 01:23 am)

For more details about this manuscript we would need someone in Alba Iulia. biggrin.gif


Is the manuscript located in Alba Iulia? Did you identified exactly it's location (archive, collection, quota etc.)?

Posted by: Dénes April 18, 2010 05:13 am
QUOTE (Klemen @ April 18, 2010 07:23 am)
He writes that during the war there were three generals (...Papp...)

Papp is hardly a Rumanian name.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Klemen April 18, 2010 04:38 pm
QUOTE
Gen. Dénes: Papp is hardly a Rumanian name.

I am just "a messenger", Dénes. laugh.gif Barbu says in his manuscript that there were three active officers of Romanian nationality in the k.u.k. Army who rose to the rank of general during the war: Ioan Boeriu, Gheorghe Domasneanu and Danila Papp. I only know General Boeriu, who is of course well-known because he won the MMThO.

QUOTE
Is the manuscript located in Alba Iulia? Did you identified exactly it's location (archive, collection, quota etc.)?

Question No.1: Yes.
Question No.2: Kinda yes. It says "mss. neinregistrat", so I reckon one would still need to ask the archive staff for some help. But from what I could see the manuscript is an absolute stunner! It even includes detailed statistical information about the losses of Romanian regiments in World War I. But I have detailed archive signatures for Avram P. Todor's memoires, which are also kept in Alba Iulia.

Why do you ask? Are you from Alba Iulia?

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: 21 inf April 19, 2010 08:28 pm
@Klemen: I am not from Alba Iulia, but I travel to it sometimes, and if it is not a time consuming activity, I might have some time to search the manuscript, if its location in Alba Iulia is known.

@Denes: Papp might be as well the magyarised named of the romanian Pop, and Danila (more corect spelled Dănilă) it is not for sure a hungarian baptism name, but for sure a romanian one, if came from Transylvania or Romania.

Posted by: Dénes April 20, 2010 05:33 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ April 20, 2010 02:28 am)
@Denes: Papp might be as well the magyarised named of the romanian Pop, and Danila (more corect spelled Dănilă) it is not for sure a hungarian baptism name, but for sure a romanian one, if came from Transylvania or Romania.

Of course, and Pop can be a Rumanised version of Papp. And Danila the Rumanian version of Daniel. biggrin.gif
By the way, what I wrote is: "Papp is hardly a Rumanian name." And I stand behind this.

Anyhow, the person's individual Army file did record his ethnicity, that is the relevant document that can decide this issue from bureaucratic point of view.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf April 20, 2010 05:41 am
Hard to believe that Danila is romanised from Daniel, since Danila is more a peasant romanian name smile.gif

Posted by: contras April 22, 2010 08:20 pm
QUOTE
Contras: could you, please, tell me the reference (title, year, publishing house) of Cassian R. Munteanu Memoirs because on the BCU Bucuresti website I found only a book written by him, "Batalia de la Marasesti". I believe this is very interesting. I have some materials that mention the direct fights between Romanians and Romanians, but I did not know about this reference.

Thanks in advance.

If you know other references and names that mention this, I would appreciate to tell me about it.


I found it. Cassian R. Munteanu was in reg 49 Caransebes and fought 5 weeks in Serbia, where he was WIA. His regiment was sent in Galitia, and he follow it after he recovered. He spent 11 months in first line, he become ill and later he escaped in Romania from hospital. He became volunteer in Romanian army and take part in war, incuding the battle of Marasesti, about it he write the book mentioned earlier.
About his period in AH army, he wrote a book, "Atacul", published in 1915, and later reedited under the name "Martiriul catanelor", 1919. The late version is more complete, including his escape to Romania.
All his writtings, including "Martiriul catanelor" and some poems, also some references about his works, are published in 1977 edition named "Batalia de la Marasesti", at Editura Facla. He passed away in 1921.
In "Martiriul catanelor" are many references about fightings between Romanians in AH army and Russian army. Also, about his activity on Serbian front, are some references, including an interesant discussion across the Danube, in Romanian language, between Romanians and Serbs, one of the Serbs brother-in-law with one of the Romanians.

Posted by: contras April 22, 2010 09:48 pm
QUOTE
Barbu says in his manuscript that there were three active officers of Romanian nationality in the k.u.k. Army who rose to the rank of general during the war: Ioan Boeriu, Gheorghe Domasneanu and Danila Papp.


Danila Pop (Papp) was the general who comanded one of the Romanians divisions made from volunteers from Ardeal during the Romanian-Hungarian war in 1919. He took action in battle of Szolnok, his division had an important role in occupation of the city.

Posted by: 21 inf April 23, 2010 10:16 am
So, despite the insinuation "Papp is hardly a romanian name", he was indeed romanian. wink.gif

Posted by: Dénes April 23, 2010 06:44 pm
I don't get it: which part of my original statement is false? dry.gif What "insinuation" are you talking about?
Papp is not a Rumanian name. Period. I stand by my words.

If the quoted Gen. Danila Papp considered himself a Rumanian, it's his own right. No question about it. However, the fact that he fought against the Hungarian Red Army is not proof to anything. Many Hungarians fought against the Bolsheviks at a point or another, including members the Szekler Division, or Horthy's National Army. That hardly makes them Rumanians...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf April 23, 2010 07:30 pm
Denes, you know very well what are you saying, and also I know it. Every time someone mentioned a magyarised name and one told that that name might be actually a romanian name, but magyarised, you tried to bring another light onto it (it wouldnt be wrong if it would be also realistic).

This case is the same. Papp is just the magyarised name of romanian Pop (of course Papp is not romanian, it is hungarian, but it is not the original name, who was actually Pop), and the given name Danila is also romanian. The guy was romanian. And the Szekler Division (and the bolshevic hungarian army) fought AGAINST romanian army, which Danila Papp (Pop) didnt in 1919.

Living in Transylvania and knowing my people's history, I can see, in most cases, when under a magyarised name it is a romanian. My grandfather had his name magyarised, my father-in-law also, and only those who didnt wanted to see the reality considered them hungarians.

In this manner of seeing things, you can consider my father-in-law "hardly to be romanian name" because between 1940 to 1944 he was Balogh Togyer, instead Bologa Toader, how was before 1940 and how he is from 1944, by his own will and nature, being romanian as all his ancestors were. Or my grandfather is "hardly to be a romanian name" because he was until ww1 and between 1940-1944 Briyszk Tivadar, but he died as he was and he wished, Brisc Teodor, romanian as all from his familly. Or my grandmother, Purdi, who was in reality the romanian Pordea. All I can sustain with documents wink.gif and I know what I'm saying.

So, nothing personal, no offence meant, I promise that when I'll see a hungarian name atributed to a hungarian, I'll be the first who will respect it and to recognise it. And if in the future if I'll make the mistake of misinterpreting a hungarian name which belong to a hungarian, I'll be the first who will apologise. But until some try to lead the reader into unclear waters when speaking about romanians from Transylvania, I cant stay away (my genetic is the "guilty" one, my "moţ" DNA is speaking out biggrin.gif wink.gif ).

Posted by: contras April 23, 2010 07:41 pm
QUOTE
However, the fact that he fought against the Hungarian Red Army is not proof to anything. Many Hungarians fought against the Bolsheviks at a point or another, including members the Szekler Division, or Horthy's National Army. That hardly makes them Rumanians...


Danila Pop (Papp) was the general comandant of 18 Division, formed from Romanian volunteers from Transylvania, many of them who come back from Russia's prison camps, other returned from Italy, others who served in Romanian Legion in Italy and fought at Piave (1918).
He was Romanian, one hundred per cent. It apears also in Captain Gheorghe Vornicu memoires about Szolnok battle.
In some sources he apears like Danila Pop, others like Papp (including in OOB in 1919).
His Chief of Staff was lt-col Iacobici Iosef (later general in ww2, I suppose is the same person).

Posted by: contras April 23, 2010 09:44 pm
QUOTE
He writes that during the war there were three generals (Boeriu, Papp and Domasneanu)


General Ioan Boeriu was the comander of Romanian troops in Viena, in late 1918 (including Reg 64 Orastie). He was the one who gave the entire command of Romanian troops to artillery slt. Iuliu Maniu, who organised Romanians in Viena and Praga and sent them home, to Transylvania. Under his command, Romanian troops assured order in Viena, where all other units and police forces were bolshevised. Two weeks, Romanian soldiers were the only ones who mantained peace and order in Viena and surroundings. General Ioan Boeriu served as Iuliu Maniu's secretary during this time.

More about this, here:

http://cristiannegrea.blogspot.com/2010/02/revolutia-din-ardeal-si-garzile.html

Posted by: Klemen April 25, 2010 06:46 am
QUOTE
@21 inf: I am not from Alba Iulia, but I travel to it sometimes, and if it is not a time consuming activity, I might have some time to search the manuscript, if its location in Alba Iulia is known.

Send me your e-mail address in PM and I will e-mailed you the details, along with a file attachment, where you can read more about this manuscript.

QUOTE
@ contras: In "Martiriul catanelor" are many references about fightings between Romanians in AH army and Russian army. Also, about his activity on Serbian front, are some references, including an interesant discussion across the Danube, in Romanian language, between Romanians and Serbs, one of the Serbs brother-in-law with one of the Romanians

Contras, can you please tell us more details about Munteanu's service on the Serbian Front? Is his book a real memoir of a novelised memoir? How much space does he devote to Serbia 1914 and does he describe the fightings in which his regiment took part?

Caransebes regiment was Nr. 43. Nr. 49 was from St. Poelten.

Klemen

Posted by: dead-cat April 25, 2010 09:02 am
perhaps he was related to Papp Jancsi from Pest biggrin.gif

Posted by: contras April 25, 2010 12:50 pm
QUOTE
Contras, can you please tell us more details about Munteanu's service on the Serbian Front? Is his book a real memoir of a novelised memoir? How much space does he devote to Serbia 1914 and does he describe the fightings in which his regiment took part?


"Martiriul catanelor" ("Atacul", in first print) consisted in few short war autobiographical stories about some events in ww1. The same way like Octav C. Taslauanu's "Trei luni pe campul de razboi", "Hora obuzelor".
The main part are from Galitian's front. Cassian Munteanu took part 6 weeks on Serbian front, where was WIA. If yoy want more information, I'll borrow the book frm local library, and give you the info you need.

Posted by: Dénes April 25, 2010 12:50 pm
QUOTE
perhaps he was related to Papp Jancsi from Pest  biggrin.gif

Why, Papp Jancsi was also a magyarised Rumanian? ohmy.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf April 25, 2010 01:09 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ April 25, 2010 12:50 pm)
QUOTE
perhaps he was related to Papp Jancsi from Pest  biggrin.gif

Why, Papp Jancsi was also a magyarised Rumanian? ohmy.gif

Gen. Dénes

Papp Jancsi is 100% hungarian in my opinion, and hungarian Danila Papp went visiting him as a relative in 1919, in Pest, because it was a long time since they didnt seen each other. But Papp Danila went to Pest together with his friends, thousands of transylvanian volunteers, who take care of him not to loose his way in Hungary, meeting his cousin Papp Jancsi (after some authors Papp Laci or Papp Pista, it is still debatable, trying to establish the colour of their eyes). laugh.gif

Posted by: Klemen April 25, 2010 04:32 pm
QUOTE
Martiriul catanelor" ("Atacul", in first print) consisted in few short war autobiographical stories about some events in ww1. The same way like Octav C. Taslauanu's "Trei luni pe campul de razboi", "Hora obuzelor".

That's great. For a moment I was afraid that he wrote his memoirs in a novelist fashion. I don't like that type because one is never sure what what is written is true and what has been made up. I also don't like when the names of the main protoganonists are changed like in Liviu Rebreanu's novel.

QUOTE
The main part are from Galitian's front. Cassian Munteanu took part 6 weeks on Serbian front, where was WIA. If yoy want more information, I'll borrow the book frm local library, and give you the info you need.

Can you do this?? huh.gif wink.gif That would be great! I am very interested to read what he wrote about his short stay on the Serbian Front. I don't think I have read yet the memoirs of a Romanian who was there. Most of the memoirs from the Serbian Front are German, Czech, Croatian and Serbian.

By the way contras can you check if your library also has the following two books:

- Sextil Puscariu. Memorii. Minerva Ed. 1978
http://www.shop-bay.ro/-Memorii--Sextil-Puscariu--licitatia-163007.html

- Zaharia Boila. Memorii. Biblioteca Apostrof, Cluj-Napoca 2007
http://www.ne-cenzurat.ro/arhiva/necenzurat_19/html/nr19_cultura.html

I am particularly eager to find out Puscariu's memoirs after finding out he served on the Italian Front during WW1. It would be nice to know more about his wartime service and his memoirs are also big, so I am hoping for substantial chapter about his WW1 service. biggrin.gif

URL: http://www.centruldestudiitransilvane.ro/detaliu.aspx?eID=144

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: contras April 25, 2010 05:13 pm
QUOTE
Contras, can you please tell us more details about Munteanu's service on the Serbian Front? Is his book a real memoir of a novelised memoir? How much space does he devote to Serbia 1914 and does he describe the fightings in which his regiment took part?


OK, I'll check. Many times, I'm not so enthusiast about some memories reedited after '45, because could be censored. Very few I read escaped from this. I like more those who apeared interwar period, but those are very rare and hard to find.

Posted by: Klemen April 26, 2010 11:23 am
QUOTE
@contras: OK, I'll check. Many times, I'm not so enthusiast about some memories reedited after '45, because could be censored. Very few I read escaped from this. I like more those who apeared interwar period, but those are very rare and hard to find.

I know what you mean contras but Puscariu's memoirs have in total about 900 pages! Now something tells me that his book probably didn't get much editing. laugh.gif biggrin.gif

Thanks for all your help on this in advance. Looking forward.

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: contras May 03, 2010 02:19 pm
QUOTE
By the way contras can you check if your library also has the following two books:

- Sextil Puscariu. Memorii. Minerva Ed. 1978
http://www.shop-bay.ro/-Memorii--Sextil-Pu...tia-163007.html

- Zaharia Boila. Memorii. Biblioteca Apostrof, Cluj-Napoca 2007
http://www.ne-cenzurat.ro/arhiva/necenzura...19_cultura.html

I am particularly eager to find out Puscariu's memoirs after finding out he served on the Italian Front during WW1. It would be nice to know more about his wartime service and his memoirs are also big, so I am hoping for substantial chapter about his WW1 service. 


I found them both on local library.

Posted by: Klemen May 08, 2010 03:42 pm
QUOTE
@contras: I found them both on local library.

Fantastic! biggrin.gif Tell me contras did you check the list of contents inside the books to see if there is anything about their wartime service? I know that Sextil Puscariu served in the k.u.k. army on the Italian Front, but I am not sure about Zaharia Boila, except that he was the right age (b. 1891) to serve in the army in 1914.

Eagerly awaiting your report. tongue.gif

Klemen

Posted by: contras May 09, 2010 08:37 am
QUOTE
Fantastic!  Tell me contras did you check the list of contents inside the books to see if there is anything about their wartime service? I know that Sextil Puscariu served in the k.u.k. army on the Italian Front, but I am not sure about Zaharia Boila, except that he was the right age (b. 1891) to serve in the army in 1914.


Yes, about Sextil Puscariu, his memories about wartime are about 350 pages. He served on Italian front, but only at supply service. He didn't see action on first line, he said he fired just one shot in all ww1, to kill his hose with one broken leg. His memories are about movement of troops, many letters written at home, etc.

Posted by: Klemen May 09, 2010 02:13 pm
QUOTE
@contras: Yes, about Sextil Puscariu, his memories about wartime are about 350 pages. He served on Italian front, but only at supply service. He didn't see action on first line, he said he fired just one shot in all ww1, to kill his hose with one broken leg. His memories are about movement of troops, many letters written at home, etc.

Thank you, contras! Please can you tell me some more details about Puscariu's career on the Isonzo Front? What was his rank? Which theatre was he on? Tyrol or Isonzo? Does he mention any places where he was stationed? His unit? Was it Etappen-Kommando or Train-Battalion? Or did he serve with a regimental train?

I don't mind him serving with the supply service. In fact, I haven't found so far any memoirs of an Austro-Hungarian serviceman who would serve with the supply service, so everything is first. I am only glad he did not serve with the artillery, because I am slowly growing tired of their memoirs. biggrin.gif

350 pages? laugh.gif I would certainly be interested to order a few photocopies from this book if possible. What do you say?

And Zaharia Boila? Never served in the army? Ditched to Romania in 1914? What was his fate during wartime?

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: contras May 10, 2010 08:23 pm
Now I read Sextil Puscariu's memories, but these are so dense with so many personal observations about his family, friends he met on the front, political thoughts and many letters to his wife (he wrote to her daily, and she did it, too), and is very hard to find some thinghs you are interested. Puscariu was a literate man, not a warrior. For him, the ammounts about war problems were seen with the eye of a writer, not a soldier. He don't insisted about military problems, but he describes the feelings, the situation, the spirit of the soldiers. If I find some facts you are interested, I let you know.
But, during this time, I must read other thinghs, it may last some time (a few days, I supose).

About Serbian front related by Cassian Munteanu, I checked again, and there are no many news. He relaterd some experiences about Serbian front (he served there only six weeks and he was WIA) only like feedbacks, not mentioned places, units and actions. He mentioned that he was saved by his friend Vidu (later KIA in Galitia) when he was wounded, Vidu guarded and placed him in the hands of the sanitars. His memories about his service in AH army are written in Taslauanu's style (Hora Obuzelor, Trei luni pe campul de razboi), in short personal stories about some events or persons during wartime. One of this stories is about one conversation along the Danube between he (during one patrol mission) and some Serbian soldiers, in Romanian, one of the Serbian soldiers was the brother in law of one of the Romanian ones who was in patrol.

After I read Sextil Puscariu's memories, I'll check Zaharia Boila's.

Posted by: 21 inf May 11, 2010 06:41 pm
Contras, do you have Taslauanu's books that you mentioned? I'd like to ask you to make some copies after them if can smile.gif

Posted by: contras May 12, 2010 07:50 am
QUOTE
Contras, do you have Taslauanu's books that you mentioned? I'd like to ask you to make some copies after them if can


Yes, I do. It apears at Rao, few years ago.

Posted by: Klemen May 12, 2010 10:35 pm
QUOTE
Now I read Sextil Puscariu's memories, but these are so dense with so many personal observations about his family, friends he met on the front, political thoughts and many letters to his wife (he wrote to her daily, and she did it, too), and is very hard to find some thinghs you are interested. Puscariu was a literate man, not a warrior. For him, the ammounts about war problems were seen with the eye of a writer, not a soldier. He don't insisted about military problems, but he describes the feelings, the situation, the spirit of the soldiers. If I find some facts you are interested, I let you know.

Thank you contras for the summary of Puscariu's memoir. Actually I am very interested at those paragraphs where he describes the feelings, the spirit of soldiers and situation on the front, particularly during the time of a major offensive. As I said, if possible, I would be very eager to order a few photocopies from his memoir. Just let me know what are the conditions for this and how much do I need to repay you for the costs of postage and photocopying.

Also can you please tell me if Puscariu mentions where exactly was he stationed this with his supply unit? In Tyrol? Isonzo? Piave? Does he mention any places in his memoir?

QUOTE
About Serbian front related by Cassian Munteanu, I checked again, and there are no many news. He relaterd some experiences about Serbian front (he served there only six weeks and he was WIA) only like feedbacks, not mentioned places, units and actions.

I see. I thought he goes into more details when describing the actions of his regiment and his wounding on front... Too bad. Good personal narratives from the Serbian Front are very rare.

QUOTE
After I read Sextil Puscariu's memories, I'll check Zaharia Boila's.

OK! Thanks!

Klemen

Posted by: contras May 13, 2010 12:50 pm
QUOTE
Contras, do you have Taslauanu's books that you mentioned? I'd like to ask you to make some copies after them if can 


Are two volumes, and the total is abut 700 pages. Better I borrow you the books, and you can make copies if you want. We can discuss on PM.

Posted by: contras June 06, 2010 11:09 am
QUOTE
Also can you please tell me if Puscariu mentions where exactly was he stationed this with his supply unit? In Tyrol? Isonzo? Piave? Does he mention any places in his memoir?


He mentioned some localities, but very few. In 1916, he stayed a period in Val-Sugana. In January 1917, in Roncegno. The artillery comand post was at St. Pietro, near Brenta river and Armenterra Mountain. In february, he was at Marter. About units, he mentioned that he replaced the ammo referent at 181 Brigade during his hollyday.
I don't know exactly what you need from Puscariu's memories, but I think we could find a way to borrow this book (for a short time, because is from local libray), and make you any copy you want. Just let me know, even on PM.

Posted by: contras June 07, 2010 01:11 pm
QUOTE
And Zaharia Boila? Never served in the army? Ditched to Romania in 1914? What was his fate during wartime?


Maybe you'll be disapointed, Klemen, but Zaharia's Boila memories are just political ones, about political struggle between 1918 - 1940. There are none references about fronts, battles, military operations, just about revolution in AH and political struggle.

Posted by: Klemen June 14, 2010 09:15 pm
Hello contras!

QUOTE
He mentioned some localities, but very few. In 1916, he stayed a period in Val-Sugana. In January 1917, in Roncegno. The artillery comand post was at St. Pietro, near Brenta river and Armenterra Mountain. In february, he was at Marter. About units, he mentioned that he replaced the ammo referent at 181 Brigade during his hollyday

Interesting. Do you perhaps remember where was he in 1914, 1915 and at the end of the war in 1918? Still in Tyrol? 181st Infantry Brigade was a part of Major-General Vidale's 18th Infantry Division on Asiago and Arsiero plateau.

QUOTE
I don't know exactly what you need from Puscariu's memories, but I think we could find a way to borrow this book (for a short time, because is from local libray), and make you any copy you want. Just let me know, even on PM.

OK. Check your PM.

QUOTE
Maybe you'll be disapointed, Klemen, but Zaharia's Boila memories are just political ones, about political struggle between 1918 - 1940. There are none references about fronts, battles, military operations, just about revolution in AH and political struggle.

Aaaargh, shit! How I hate these politicians! blink.gif ph34r.gif

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: contras July 20, 2010 10:38 pm
For all interested about memories of ww1 veterans. There are few impresions about ww2, Odessa in special.
Also for Klemen, about Romanians on Italian front, see this:

http://www.literaturasidetentie.ro/prieten/pdf/amintiri.pdf

Posted by: 21 inf July 21, 2010 01:04 pm
QUOTE (contras @ July 20, 2010 10:38 pm)
For all interested about memories of ww1 veterans. There are few impresions about ww2, Odessa in special.
Also for Klemen, about Romanians on Italian front, see this:

http://www.literaturasidetentie.ro/prieten/pdf/amintiri.pdf

Thank you very much!

Posted by: Klemen July 24, 2010 03:15 pm
Hello contras!

QUOTE
For all interested about memories of ww1 veterans. There are few impresions about ww2, Odessa in special. Also for Klemen, about Romanians on Italian front, see this: http://www.literaturasidetentie.ro/prieten/pdf/amintiri.pdf

Thank you very much, contras! The book is simply fantastic (!!!) and so are his descriptions of the battles on the Isonzo in 1915-16. ohmy.gif wink.gif

Please if you find any other such books, please do not hesitate to inform us, OK? Another book that I would very much to find is Dr. Dominic Stanca's memoir "Între două fronturi" (published in 1935), in which he also described his participation in the June offensive on the Piave River. I believe he served as a regimental doctor in one of the Hungarian Honved Hussar regiments. Probably in the 1st k.u.k. Cavalry Division, which saw some heavy fightings in the marshes in the Lower Piave between the Fossalta di Piave and the Adriatic Sea.

lp,

Klemen

p.s. Any luck with Puscariu's book?

Posted by: contras July 24, 2010 08:47 pm
QUOTE
p.s. Any luck with Puscariu's book?


I didnt forget, but I was quite busy in last days. Give me few weeks and I will resolve it.

Posted by: contras September 20, 2010 07:08 pm
QUOTE
He writes that during the war there were three generals (Boeriu, Papp and Domasneanu)


Iancu Domasneanu (1868 - ?) served in AH army and was accepted in romanian Army with the Brig. Gen. rank at 17 August 1917. During Romanian-Hungarian war in 1919 he was commander of Div 19 Inf. One order in 10 November 1919 put Banat area under his command, with PC at Timisoara.

Posted by: Dénes September 21, 2010 05:39 am
QUOTE (contras @ September 21, 2010 01:08 am)
One order in 10 November 1919 put Banat area under his command, with PC at Timisoara.

Banat was also promised to the Serbs by the Entente. There were skirmishes between Serbian and Rumanian troops trying to take as much territory as possible before the final borders were settled in 1919.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: contras September 21, 2010 07:02 pm
QUOTE
Banat was also promised to the Serbs by the Entente. There were skirmishes between Serbian and Rumanian troops trying to take as much territory as possible before the final borders were settled in 1919.


It was about the Banat area after the final borders were settled.

Posted by: contras September 21, 2010 07:25 pm
QUOTE
He writes that during the war there were three generals (Boeriu, Papp and Domasneanu), 15 colonels (Hanzu, Sandru, Ienachie, Bacila, Bihoi, Cena, Iovescu, Lugojanu, Lupu, Mataranga, Muica, Memesoiu, Bunasiu, Dr. Moga from Arad and Dr. Moga from Sibiu) and 12 lieutenant-colonels (Iacobici, Ilcusiu, Hidu, Bordan, Savu, Stroia, Barbu, M. Serb, T. Serb, Pacala, Vlad and Ivascu) in the k.u.k. Army during Great War 1914-1918. Twelve of them apparently reached the rank of general in the Royal Romanian Army, including Barbu.


Alexandru Hanzu (1871 - ?) served in AH army and was accepted in Romanian Army with the Brig. Gen. rank at 18 November 1918. From 25 January 1919 he was commander of 16 Inf Division.
Ioan Boeriu (1859 - ?) was general in AH army in 1918. He worked with Iuliu Maniu at Viena (see my previous posts). In 1921 he was commander of Romanian 7th Army Corps.
Danila Papp (Pop), (1868 - ?) served in AH army and was accepted in Romanian Army with the Brig. Gen. rank at 1SEptember 1917. Between December 1918 - 25 January 1919 he was Chief of Staff at General Teritorial Command Sibiu. From 25 January 1919 he was Commander of 18 Infantry Division.
His Chief of Staff at this division was lt-col Iosif Iacobici, who served in AH army before. Later, in ww2, he served as general.

All these mentioned, incuding gen Domasneanu (my previous post) took part at Romanian-Hungarian war in 1919.

Posted by: contras September 21, 2010 07:27 pm
QUOTE
All these mentioned, incuding gen Domasneanu (my previous post) took part at Romanian-Hungarian war in 1919.


Sorry, I'm not sure about general Boeriu. I didn't find yet some serious material about his activity during this war.

Posted by: Klemen September 25, 2010 01:11 pm
Hello contras,

Brilliant stuff, contras! biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Iancu Domasneanu (1868 - ?) served in AH army and was accepted in romanian Army with the Brig. Gen. rank at 17 August 1917. During Romanian-Hungarian war in 1919 he was commander of Div 19 Inf. One order in 10 November 1919 put Banat area under his command, with PC at Timisoara.

August 1917??? Are you sure about this? I find it namely extremly difficult to believe that a general in the Austro-Hungarian Army would desert in 1917 to join the army of his emperor's enemy. I can't recall any such cases during WW1. There were other high-ranking officers of Romanian, Italian and Serbian origin in the k.u.k. Army but they remained loyal until the end of the war. There were some cases of desertion or defections but mostly among junior ranks, especially reserve officers.

QUOTE
Alexandru Hanzu (1871 - ?) served in AH army and was accepted in Romanian Army with the Brig. Gen. rank at 18 November 1918. From 25 January 1919 he was commander of 16 Inf Division...

Thank you for this info. Very interesting stuff.

Contras, can you find me anything about Lt.Col. Alexander Vlad (Alexandru Vlad)? I am asking you this because some time ago I read an article about the Steierische Freiwilligen Schützen on the Isonzo Front in 1917. The article mentioned that their commander was one Major (later Lt.Col). Vlad, who was even recommended for the MMThO. The only guy who kinda fits this description is Lt.Col. Alexander Vlad. I believed he served before the war with k.u.k. IR. Nr. 27 in Graz and Laibach (Ljubljana), but this is not confirmed yet. I tried to google his name but all what I got are some hits to a novelist and a dancer with the same name and of course to Vlad the Dracula. laugh.gif

Best regards,

Klemen

Posted by: contras September 28, 2010 10:25 am
QUOTE
August 1917??? Are you sure about this? I find it namely extremly difficult to believe that a general in the Austro-Hungarian Army would desert in 1917 to join the army of his emperor's enemy. I can't recall any such cases during WW1. There were other high-ranking officers of Romanian, Italian and Serbian origin in the k.u.k. Army but they remained loyal until the end of the war. There were some cases of desertion or defections but mostly among junior ranks, especially reserve officers.


I'm not so sure, because I took this figure from just one source, and could be a tipo mistake. It's is a footnote in Transylvanian Troops Commander operational diary. (Jurnal de operatiuni al Comandamentului Trupelor din Transilvania 1918 - 1921, Editura Muzeului Satmarean, 2 vol, 1998).

Posted by: contras October 02, 2010 11:06 am
On topic, in his memories Ion Gr. Oprisan (21 de luni pe caile robiei, 1920, and Lanturi frante, 1921, republished by ed. Argonaut, 2003) tells about one attack in August 1914, at Intorsura Buzaului area. His batalion attacked one hill covered with forests near Crasna river. Two hours they climbed against enemy positions from where received heavy fire, but no one fall. No KIA, no injured. When Romanians take enemy positions, all surrendered, some oficers run away. They were from Reg 23 from Banat, Romanians. Slt Oprisan asked them why they fired on us. They answered if they don't aim at the sky, no one could reach the trench. The position was heavily fortified.

Posted by: 21 inf October 02, 2010 01:56 pm
QUOTE (contras @ October 02, 2010 11:06 am)
On topic, in his memories Ion Gr. Oprisan (21 de luni pe caile robiei, 1920, and Lanturi frante, 1921, republished by ed. Argonaut, 2003) tells about one attack in August 1914, at Intorsura Buzaului area. His batalion attacked one hill covered with forests near Crasna river. Two hours they climbed against enemy positions from where received heavy fire, but no one fall. No KIA, no injured. When Romanians take enemy positions, all surrendered, some oficers run away. They were from Reg 23 from Banat, Romanians. Slt Oprisan asked them why they fired on us. They answered if they don't aim at the sky, no one could reach the trench. The position was heavily fortified.

In august 1914? Romania was not war at that time!

Posted by: Klemen October 02, 2010 03:11 pm
Don't you have in Romania the so-called Military Schematismus, which lists the names of all the officers in the Royal Romanian Army after 1919? Here is how the Austrio-Hungarian k.u.k. Schematismus looked like for year 1895.

http://www.archive.org/stream/schematismusfrd07kriegoog

lp,

Klemen

Posted by: contras October 02, 2010 04:06 pm
QUOTE
In august 1914? Romania was not war at that time!


Sorry, I mean August 1916.

Posted by: Dénes October 02, 2010 08:10 pm
QUOTE (Klemen @ October 02, 2010 09:11 pm)
Don't you have in Romania the so-called Military Schematismus, which lists the names of all the officers in the Royal Romanian Army after 1919?

Yes, there is. It's called Anuarul ofiterilor (or similar).

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf October 08, 2011 03:04 pm
It was a discussion some time ago about the origins (romanian or not) of Dănilă Papp, general of romanian army in 1919, ex-AH officer. Now, that I found data about him, I share it with you.

General Dănilă Papp was born in Aciua (today Avram Iancu), Arad county, at 20 may 1868.

He was son of Dănilă Papp and Maria Karl. He had several brothers, as follows: Sabin Antoniu Simion, died as child; Corneliu Nepos, died as child; Victoria, died as child; Maria Emilia Ana, born 1875, established at Cluj.

His father, also named Dănilă, was secretary of the "prefect" from Baia de Criş between 1861-1868. After that, his father moved as "jude cercual" in "subpretura" Aciua. In 1872 Dănilă senior was named "subjude" in Baia de Criş until 1876, when he was transfered at Kecskemet, Nagy-Koros and Igal. He was born in 1835 at Crişcior, Hunedoara county, as the child of Toma Papp and Terezia Lucaciu, peasants. He studied theology at Budapest, being of greek-catholic religion. He married in 24 january 1864 Maria Karl, born in Băiţa in 1842. He died on 13 april 1887 at Crişcior.

General Dănilă Papp graduated secondary studies in Deva in 1887. Then he followed Military Academy in Wiener Neustadt between 1887-1890. Stage at Orăştie between 1890-1894, professor at cadet school from Sibiu (1894-1899). Graduated superior course of engineers ("geniu") from Wien (1899-1901). In the headquarters at Przemysl (1901-1904), then again at Sibiu (1904-1906), Komarom (1906-1908), Budapest (1908-1910), after that moved in Tirol to work as engineer at fortifications on italian border.

He fought in ww1 from 30 july 1914, on the russian front until 1 april 1918, when he was sent with the entire brigade on the italian front. The end of ww1 found him comander of town Bolzano, Italy.

In december 1918 he entered as "şef de stat major" and aide of general of division Ioan Boeriu.

He had a son, Eugeniu, born 20 october 1896, KIA in Galiţia, 9 march 1915.

source: Traian Mager, Ţinutul Hălmagiului.

Posted by: Dénes October 08, 2011 05:17 pm
Thanks for the info, but it's still not clear what ethnicity Danila Papp actually was (if we want to talk about this topic).
At the time he was born, the area was part of Hungary. Also, the fact that his father held so high state functions makes one wonder if he was indeed member of a national minority in the country.
Further info would certainly be welcome.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf October 08, 2011 06:54 pm
Yes, Denes, that part of Romania was then in Hungary. The religion of the father of the general shows that he was romanian, as the religion is greek-catholic. As far as I know, this is not a religion specific for hungarian ethnics. There are 99% chances that judging only by religion, the guy is romanian.

Another point, which is known today only by a few people, mostly scholars, is that that area from were Danila Papp is, was at that time the Zarand megye (county), which was considered almost a romanian independent county in Hungary. Almost all it's administration was raised from romanian ranks, so it is was common that romanian commoners to easily became clerks. Even on the residency of the county there were 2 flags: a romanian one on the eastern side and a hungarian one on the western side. The county was later disolved as it was seemed "too romanian". More about this county here http://istorie.uab.ro/publicatii/colectia_bcss/bcss_1/26_gligor_f.pdf

About the oficial job of Danila Papp senior, it was not so high if he was sent to live and work to Aciua, were Danila Papp junior was born. As my grandfather is born in this village and I spent my childhood there, believe me that this village is really poor and must have been ever poorer in XIXth century.

Another fact, linked with it's family: how many germans or hungarians baptised their childrens with obvious latin names in that period? Just take a look to the names of two of the brothers of Danila junior: Sabin and Nepos. It was typical for romanians to give latin names to their childrens in order not to be translated in other languages and to underline that they are romanian. Knowing the area better, I can testify that this habit is still respected today by local romanians, many giving to their childrens specific names that cannot be translated (especially in hungarian - no offence meant!, but this is reality and the tradition).

Posted by: Dénes October 08, 2011 07:40 pm
Given names can be easily deceiving. For example, officially, I am the son of Dionisie and Ecaterina, born in the county of Mures, in Rumania. biggrin.gif

The most convincing proof to me is Danila Papp's religion.

So, let's move on...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: 21 inf October 08, 2011 08:53 pm
Ok!

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)