Source: National Centre for Cinematography
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > WW1 and Regional Wars (1912-1919) > King Carol I with the rank of Marshal |
| Posted by: Carol I February 13, 2006 08:01 pm |
| 14 June 1914 - During the visit of the Russian Czar to Romania, King Carol I was wearing a marshal baton. Was he the first Marshal in the Romanian Army? Source: National Centre for Cinematography |
| Posted by: Carol I February 13, 2006 08:04 pm |
14 June 1914 - One more image of King Carol I wearing the marshal baton. Source: National Centre for Cinematography |
| Posted by: Carol I February 13, 2006 08:17 pm | ||
There is also a fragment in the recollections of General Alexandru Socec, commander of the 5th Territorial Command in Constanţa who was the local official responsible for the safety of the Russian visit to Romania:
Source: http://www.itcnet.ro/history/archive/mi1999/current8/p38-41.htm |
| Posted by: Agarici February 13, 2006 09:34 pm | ||
Apparently he was, taking into consideration your information; very interesting contribution, Carol I. I wonder, wasn’t this high rank granted to him according to some formal traditions regarding the heads of state, or the heads of state with a certain status (monarchs, a certain age)? In the end, the king was the head of the army, so who could have awarded him this rank? |
| Posted by: dragos03 February 13, 2006 09:42 pm |
| Maybe he was an onorific marshall of the German Army? |
| Posted by: Dénes February 13, 2006 09:42 pm | ||
I assume so, as King Michael I. was also a Marshal (before Ion Antonescu). His award was published in a 1940 issue of Monitorul Oficial. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: dragos03 February 13, 2006 09:54 pm |
| Yes, he was a German Field Marshall, he received this rank on 20 April 1909. |
| Posted by: Victor February 14, 2006 07:00 am |
| King Carol I was also a marshal of the Russian Empire. I suspect he is holding the Russian marshal baton in this film. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 14, 2006 08:26 am | ||
Was he a marshal of other armies as well (beside the Russian one mentioned by Victor)? |
| Posted by: Carol I February 14, 2006 08:30 am | ||
This makes more sense than having a German baton with a Russian uniform. Do you have the details as to when and how did Carol I become a marshal of the Russian Empire? Was it when he became Colonel-in-Chief of the Russian 18th Vologda Regiment? |
| Posted by: Carol I February 14, 2006 08:32 am |
| Thank you all for the replies. They bring more light onto an area previously unknown to me. The question raised by Agarici and Dénes remains: Was the Romanian monarch automatically a marshal of the Romanian army or not? If yes, when was this introduced? Was there any special ceremony for accession to the rank or was it automatically implied by the accession to the throne? |
| Posted by: Victor February 14, 2006 10:28 am | ||
In the biography of marshal Alexandru Averescu, col. Petre Otu states that during the visit in Romania between 9 - 12 December 1912 (dates are according to the Gregorian callendar, adopted after WW1), the Russian delegation led by the Grand Duke Nikolai Mikhailovich brought King Carol I the marshal baton. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 14, 2006 10:33 am | ||
Thanks Victor for the update. So, this far we have Carol I German marshal on 20 April 1909 and Russian marshal in December 1912 (the precise date is unknown). |
| Posted by: Kepi February 14, 2006 01:19 pm |
| It seems that King Carol I was appointed Marshall of Russian Empire in 1912. As it was written here, he was already Field Marshall of Prussian Army in 1909, when he celebrated his 70th anniversary. King Ferdinand I became Marshall of Romanian army on 1st of December 1918. The parliament instituted the dignity of Marshall of the Romanian army for those high officers who commanded an army in the war. It seems that two other officers were designated to receive this highest rank, one of them was Army-Corps General Eremia Grigorescu, who was very much in favour of the court clique. Finally this project failed and King Ferdinand remained the unique Marshall of the Romanian army. On 29th September 1930, during the autumn maneuvers King Carol II was appointed Marshall, and a few days later, he promoted Army-Corps Generals Averescu and Presan to this highest rank. On 25th September 1933, King Alexander I of Yugoslavia became Marshall of the Romanian army. On 10th May 1941 King Michael I and on 22nd August 1941 Army General Ion Antonescu also got the rank of Marshall. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 14, 2006 08:15 pm |
| Thank you Kepi for the informed reply and for the details of the history of the marshal rank in the Romanian army. I have however a question of a technical nature. According to the Romanian constitution, it was the king who conferred the military ranks. So, who conferred the marshal rank to Ferdinand on 1 December 1918, Carol II in September or October 1930 and Michael on 10 May 1941? Were they self-conferring the rank? If not, was that not a breach of the constitution if a military rank was conferred by someone else than the king? And another question. If the marshal rank was reserved "for those high officers who commanded an army in the war", wasn't it a breach of the law to confer the rank to Carol II in 1930 and to Mihai in May 1941? Both these awards were destined to people who although commanders of the army by nature of their job, at the date of the award they have not commanded the army in war. |
| Posted by: Kepi February 15, 2006 06:13 am |
| In all cases, Ferdinand I and Carol II, were appointed Marshalls by the parliament. King Mihai I was appointed Marshall by an Order of the Council of Ministers (“Jurnal al Consiliului de Ministri”) signed by the “Leader of the State” (“Conducator al Statului”) Army-General Ion Antonescu. I think that the kings, as “commanders in chief” of the army, should wear the highest military rank, even if they didn’t command an army in the war. Prince Cuza and King Carol I, also had the highest rank, of “General en chef”. They carried the rank insignia of an Army-Corps General (three bars). Officially, the rank of Army-Corps General in the Romanian army was adopted in 1917. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 15, 2006 07:38 am | ||
I agree to this. However, I think the measure to confer the highest rank at a certain point after the accession to the throne seems a bit strange (at least for Carol II and Mihai for whom the position existed when they "took the job"). It would have been more natural for the rank to come automatically with "the job". |
| Posted by: Kepi February 15, 2006 09:12 am |
| I agree, that it should be a rule. King Ferdinand I, the first Marshall of the Romanian army, had no time to established a rule of acceding to this rank, as he died without designating a successor. Other kings unexpectedly came to the throne, they didn’t fallowed the regular hierarchical promotion, and they found themselves as supreme military commanders heaving smaller ranks than the army-corps generals. So they had to find different means to correct this situation. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 15, 2006 10:06 am | ||
I see. Thanks. |
| Posted by: Carol I July 08, 2006 09:13 pm |
| Carol I's insignia as marshal of the Russian Empire (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carol_russian_Marshal_field_insignia.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Carol_russian_Marshal_field_insignia.jpg |
| Posted by: Darth_Ameraudur April 19, 2007 10:05 am |
| This is my first post and a delight to be doing it on a subject I have a bit of knowledge of and interest in! Although sadly I think I will be clarifying some things and confusing others. What is interesting about Carol I receiving a Russian Marshals baton, if Marshal Averescu is to be believed the King was given the Baton by Grand Duke Nicholas Nicholaievich, despite the fact that traditionally the Batons were not awarded by the Russian Empire. Perhaps the Baton itself was an honorary and unofficial gift also known as a ‘presentation baton’ from the Grand Duke rather than being an actual part of a Marshal of Russia’s insignia. It would be great if we could find a close up photo of it. Previous to this there had only been two other examples of a Marshals Baton in Russian History, one was given to a 18th century Russian prince, see below: http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3674/russianmarshalsbaton18tbs5.gif Source: Google Images The other was a ‘presentation baton’ given to General Kuropatkin and was a gift from his soldiers rather than being part of promotion to Marshal - a photo of which I will try and post in due course. Otherwise they can be seen only in paintings as artistic affectation in portraits of Paul III and of Marshal Kutozov. Whilst it would seem that Carol I was the first Marshal of Romania, and that Ferdinand I was the next, Carol I seemingly gave to Kaiser Wilhelm II what the Germans call an Interim-Staff or ‘Walking-Out Baton’, which is a casual form of Marshal baton, usually carried by German field marshals carry when they are not on parade or at a gala function. German Field Marshals from both wars can be seen carrying them in command on the battlefield. I have to my knowledge never seen another photo of such an ornament being carried by a Romanian Marshal. This interim-staff has clear Romanian markings, including the crowned Romanian eagle and Carol I’s cipher on it. This photo is taken from a book in my collection called ‘Mythos MarschalstaB’ by Andre Stirenberg – a truly excellent book: http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romanianinterimstabfp8.jpg Source: Mythos Marschallstab As it was Kaiser Wilhelm who made Carol I an honorary German Field Marshal, it is possible, as was the practice at the time between monarchs, that King Carol could have made the Kaiser an honorary Marshal of Romania in return! Although there is no evidence of this, apart from the Romanian Interim-staff in Kaiser Wilhelms collection that is of unknown origin. Further to this it would seem that the ‘Shoulder patches’ of Carol I shown in a previous are not Russian insignia as Russian Officers shoulder insignia were flat and squarish in shape. Rather I feel 100% certain from their appearance that they are Prussian, and are part of King Carols insignia as a German Field Marshal with his Royal Cipher on them. |
| Posted by: Darth_Ameraudur April 24, 2007 02:03 am |
| Just thought I'd add this, its a photo of King Carol in his uniform a la suite to a german regiment with his Prussian Field Marshals baton in his hand. http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hmgeneralfeldmarhsalcarax3.jpg Source: Mythos Marschallstab |
| Posted by: Darth_Ameraudur May 04, 2007 04:20 am |
| These are photos of the Baton presented to General Kuropatkin by his officers. http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=russianpresentationbatozi1.jpg http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=russianpresentationbatotw5.jpg Source of photos: Andreas Thies According to the description that accompanied it, the velvet was originally red, though it was a translation and that maybe referring to the box that Baton was kept in. Its design is very in keeping with the general designs of Field Marshals batons at the time. Although, as I have stated Russians Marshals batons usually had yellow velevt rather than any other colour according Russian military portraiture of the past. Perhaps Carol I had something similar to this. |
| Posted by: bansaraba November 02, 2008 02:42 pm |
| This page of "Anuarul Armatei" from 1914 might answer some questions: http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carolipd2.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php And, why not, the page about Ferdinand I from the same book: http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ferdinandiua0.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php |
| Posted by: Petre February 03, 2013 07:54 pm |
| Carol I. German Generalfeldmarschall (20 April 1909), Russian General-field marshal (17 September 1912). This was the last of the Russian Empire in the title of Field Marshal. The Russian general-feld marshals - people who played a prominent role in Russian history. Among them were great military leaders and statesmen. The highest military rank of Field Marshal, introduced by Pyotr I, was abolished in 1917. In the history of the Russian Empire, this rank was given 64 times. Russia's first general-field marshal was A.F.Golovin, who won the title as a talented diplomat and statesman. The last was King of Romania Carol I, who had no relation to the Russian army, Emperor Nikolay II granted him such a high rank for political reasons. The most prominent of the field marshals - the generals and statesmen, including B.P.Sheremetiev, A.D.Meshnikov, P.A.Rumyantsev, G.A.Potemkin, A.V.Suvorov, M.I.Kutuzov - those who brought glory to the Russian arms. Other foreign people with this rank : A.W. Duke of Wellington Archduke Sebastian Habsburg I. Graf von Radetzky Crown Prince Albert of Saxony Archduke Rudolf Habsburg Crown Prince Karl of Prussia Graf von Moltke (the Elder) King of Montenegro Nikola I Romanian King Carol I K.u.k. Infanterieregiment Carl I. König von Rümanien Nr. 6 Since 1881 its chief has been the Romanian monarch. At the beginning of WW1 he died and the chief place remained vacant. The 18th Infantry Regiment Vologda of His Majesty Carol I of Romania Since 18 July 1898 the chief of the regiment was Romanian King Carol I, and since April 19, 1908 was listed prince Ferdinand of Romania. |