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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Strike Lance 2009 |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 05, 2009 03:07 pm |
| http://usafelive.dodlive.mil/2009/04/28/494th-fighter-squadron-deploys-to-romania/ |
| Posted by: MMM May 05, 2009 03:39 pm |
| Is this for real? Are the officers allowed to make public comments? If so, it states something we already knew (well, some of us  ): the differences are huge between our countries! I still don't get the hot-dog thing: wasn't it just a sausage in a bun? What's so different between this exquisite American cuisine and the Romanian counter-part?BTW, I'm curious: how many miles did he have to run after he feasted at a Romanian-style Easter dinner?  |
| Posted by: Radub May 05, 2009 05:18 pm | ||
Why not?  Many wartime magazines or newspapers published stories from Romanian servicemen writing about their experiences in Russia or in Czecholsovakia. For example, Aripi Romanesti is full of such stories, extremely similar to this officer's. What were the people from the air base doing showing them a video "about how [the Romanians] invented the jet aircraft,and were the first country in Europe to have a self-propelled flying machine"? For God's sake, who in the world other than ignorant Romanians who cannot google still believe this poppycock?  Radu |
| Posted by: MMM May 05, 2009 06:01 pm |
| Gee, I don't know... "Noi suntem români / Şi vom fi aici pe veci stăpâni" How's that for an explanation? When you say Internet, you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_aircraft or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_flying_machine That would prove what? I'm sure that if Internet would have been available in the 1930's and 1950's (Stalin and/or Khruschev), the inventor of the radio would have been Popov and Michurin would have been praised as the first genetician! Everybody sees what they choose to see! |
| Posted by: Radub May 05, 2009 07:09 pm | ||
Ha ha ha ha, so you believe the Wikipedia now? Were you not the one who kept saying that it was not a good source of info? Even in Wikipedia, Vuia comes quite late to the "party" in 1906, three years after the Wright brothers. Maybe you can explain to me how did Vuia manage to be the first to... wait a minute, in Romania they do not even call it "FLYING". In Romania they call it "primia ridicare de la sol a unui aparat mai greu decat aerul prin mijloace proprii de bord" (first lift off from the ground by a machine heavier than the air by its own on-board means). Why would they not just say "first flight"? Maybe because it was not? Vuia had great merits and did a lot of work with other means of transportation, especially locomotives, which were by far more successful than his "flying automobile" that was a resounding failure. He never got the proper recognition for those achievements, instead we are continuously told about his failure, now dressed as success. Many biased autors fail to mention that his "flight" was just a short hop, shorter and lower than an Olympic long jump. In the process the "flying automobile" was damaged and never "jumped" again. The title of "first aeroplane" was officailly given to the Wright brothers for their flight on 17 December 1903 Coanda has immense merits and was an aviation genius. He deserves much more praise for his Coanda Effect. His attempt in 1910 was not a jet engine. In today's terms, his engine may be called a "ducted fan with afterburner". The turbine was not an original invention. Turbines were used for propulsion for at least 20 years at the time. Google "Turbinia". The turbine of his engine was spun by a 4-piston egine. Another thing that many biased "historians" forget is that he did not build this engine on his own. He built this engine together with Campini. After Coanda realised that this engine was a dead end, he abandoned all work on it and went on to achieve great things as an aviation inventor. However, Campini continued and after many years and after a lot of expense he built a working engine which promptly proved what Coanda has been saying all along, respectively that it was not an effective jet. The title of "inventor of the jet engine" is officially split between Hans von Ohain and Frank Whittle. Radu PS By the way, relying on others' achievements to boost one's own standing (we are a nation of..., my ancestors did..., I come from a long line of..., my brother is... ) is a clear sign of failure. Surely, if you have achievements of your own, you do not need others. |
| Posted by: guina May 05, 2009 08:16 pm |
| Right ! |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 06, 2009 07:24 am | ||
Wikipedia states pretty clearly that Traian Vuia built and flew the first self-propelling heavier-than-air aircraft in Europe, in 1906. Being proud of your nation's past and achievements is natural and sane, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! |
| Posted by: MMM May 06, 2009 08:40 am |
| Radub - you recommended wiki, not I; it seems that for many people it is a trusted source of info's. And I never stated that it is a bad source or something like that. I merely said it is soooo easy to alter, hide, misinterpret informations. But this seems to be the case with everything, not just wiki, or not just the Internet. One must be very careful what chooses! Imperialist, being proud is one thing, boasting is another. Can you see the difference? |
| Posted by: Radub May 06, 2009 09:13 am | ||
Absolutely! I am proud of my nation's past and achievements. The only problem is that most of the "achievements" that many of my co-nationals try to promote are dubious to say the least. We have achievements, we have a proud past. Many Romanians moan and complain about the "Romanians' image aborad". We would look less ridiculous/pathetic if we stuck with the truths, however few and less-than-spectacular they may be. You know why? Because the audience that we try to sell these "pups" to are not complete idiots. Some of them may actually know one thing or two and can quickly point out the holes in the "argument". If we keep doing "alba-neagra" with our history, then the audience will treat us accordingly.  By the way, both Vuia and Coanda had to go abroad to "achieve" something in their fields simply because in their own homeland they were treated with disdain or indifference (except for the times when they were directly attacked). Romanians suffer really badly from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality. Both of them lived abroad for most of their lives. Both of them got their "recognition" late in their lives from a Communist regime that tried to capitalise on their achievements for their own gains. Vuia was returned to Romania from Paris at the direct order of Dr. Petru Groza who started a campaign to promote him - in reply to the pervasive Soviet claims that one of their own (usually a poor peasant ) "invented" everything, we had to have our own "pioneers". If you are really interested in his achievements (and there were quite a few, he was a very smart man) and his life, then I suggest to try to locate a copy of the excellent "Pionieri ai Aviatiei Mondiale, Traian Vuia si epoca Sa" by Dan Antoniu et al. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM May 06, 2009 09:26 am |
| The lieutenat, however, was less impressed by the pioneering fact than of our "agricultural practices". Even if he would be made to believe in our pioneering of aviation stuff, he (or me, for that matter) wouldn't see the relevance of that in nowadays' situation. It is good to be proud of the past, not to live in it! Oh, the "crab" stuff is also very Romanian: "să moară şi capra vecinului"...  |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 06, 2009 01:06 pm | ||
Who was boasting? Some American pilots came (probably for the first time ever) to Romania. Their hosts thought to present them a movie about the country. Given the airforce setting, they chose something about Romania's airforce history. |
| Posted by: MMM May 06, 2009 02:46 pm |
| As Radub said before, the great pioneers of Romanian airforces did NOT achieve their goals in Romania, but abroad! This is not really something to be very proud of - as I guess the Americans are not so proud nowadays about Lindbergh. IMO, at least! |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 06, 2009 02:57 pm | ||
Feel free to file a complaint to the Pride Ministry and tell them to erase them from the Pride registry.  Obviously we can feel proud about whatever we want. Some feel proud about manele and Romanian women, others about the scenery and folk traditions. The airmen felt proud about their forerunners and showed the Americans a short movie. No big deal. |
| Posted by: MMM May 06, 2009 03:55 pm |
| 1. Are you the "Pride Ministry"? 2. Of course everyone can (and is) proud of everything he/she thinks worthy! But sometimes this gets to conflicts... 3. This is a typical case of clash between over-zealous pride and under-achieved general knowledge. I have strong doubts that the 1-st lieutenant in question ever heard about Hans von Ohain and Frank Whittle! I have my doubts he heard about the Montgolfier brothers, as well |
| Posted by: Radub May 06, 2009 04:22 pm |
| Many aviators are passionate about aircraft and aviation. None of them "fell into being aviators" by accident. Being an aviator requires love for flight and all things to do with aviation. I do not know any aviator who did not dream about aircraft since childhood and all aviators I know read, dream, live, breathe aviation. Most of them know their stuff. Of all people in the world, these are possibly the last people to be shown films about how the Romanians came up "first jet" and "first flight". In the USAF an aviator has to first get a degree and then join the AF training programme. That lieutenant is most definitely an educated man not some highly sugesstible precupeatza ready to believe anything that Stefan Gheorghiu's offspring come up with. In my opinion, showing such films is insulting their intelligence. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM May 06, 2009 05:53 pm |
| Yep! That's why you aren't an officer of Romanian Army! And that's why you left Romania... Now I believed the stereotype of the not-so-wise American armymen; isn't it so? Passion is something I can understand, but the cultural differences are too big between him and the Romanian "reception committee". I haven't read anything about his oppinion regading the MiG's. How comes? Was that secret? |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 06, 2009 07:31 pm | ||
Having a degree doesn't mean he knows much (if anything) about a little country called Romania. Those people were not there to take part in a conference on Romania's place in aviation history. They were shown a video probably that presented to them the country they were in. If I had something to do with that base's public relations office I would have contacted a local tourism agency and arranged a tour of the city too if the schedule would have permitted it. |
| Posted by: Radub May 06, 2009 09:04 pm | ||
And this makes true the lies invented by the communists... how? Face it! Vuia was not the first man to fly and Coanda did not makle the first jet engine! This not lack of patriotism, it is a historic fact. Radu |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 06, 2009 09:20 pm | ||
Henri Coanda's Coanda-1910 was a revolutionary aircraft in many ways. First and foremost, it is now being recognized as the first air-reactive engine (jet) aircraft, making its first and only flight October, 1910. Henri's aircraft was the first to have no propeller. This was 30 years prior to Heinkle, Campini, and Whittle who have been considered the 'fathers' of jet flight. http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/coanda.htm#Coanda-1910 |
| Posted by: lucian May 06, 2009 09:27 pm |
| 1. they was delight for weather, for the flight (too much) space vertical/horizontal. In England, fog, and narrow fligh lane, a lot of restriction. 2. my subjectiv opinion, the pilots (mans and one woman) are not very tall. Our pilots are, comparatively, tall. 3. the fight was love all. Really not. Our, fighters; their, bomb-fighter. Our, two eyes; their, four eyes. Min. speed favorable to F-15. The americans use, most of time, a single attack way: down yo-yo turn. Very accurate and efficient. I eaves pilot stories. In "free view" fight, Mig-21 is very good. Small and quick in turn, but the radar, kill him. Work in cockpit is hard for Mig. 4. finishing for F-15 is better as Mig-21. The paint.......... . But I am still in love with Mig-21 for good and all. 5. very strict rules in relationship with "other peoples" 6. the most successful romanian trump: "sarmalele". 7. now, in romanian air force the flight parameters are in knots, feets, etc.....like in civil flight. We leave the metric system ? Strange. Very strange. I am not proud for this. |
| Posted by: Radub May 06, 2009 09:49 pm | ||
No doubt it was a revolutionary concept. However, it failed. The aircraft caught fire on the first attempted flight and Coanda abandoned the idea. Proof of the fact that a functioning jet engine was not successfully built until the 30s is the fact that the first jet plane flew SUCCESSFULLY in 1939. There were NO other successful jet planes until then. Had he invented the jet plane in 1910, World War I would have been fought by jet planes. Why would the combatants ignore such a powerful device were it successful? Such lies defy both logic as well as historical fact. Coanda was an aviation genius, had immense merits and deserves far more praise for his successes. I admire him enough without the need to pervert facts. That text that you quoted was lifted from this page: http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/372139 Look carefully at the pictures! If you had any knowledge of aviation and propulsion systems you would notice very quickly that the powerplant is actually a 4 piston internal combustion engine turning a ducted fan. The powerplant is a piston engine not the turbine. That is not a jet engine, it is a ducted fan. Here is a ducted fan: http://www.rc-airplane-advisor.com/electric-ducted-fan.jpg Here is a jet: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/jet/jet-engine.jpg Radu |
| Posted by: Agarici May 06, 2009 09:59 pm | ||
Radub, I really don't get what your problem is. USAF airmen were shown, by the fellow Romanian aviators and by the representative of the Romania air force, a movie referring to some well established but less known facts about the history of Romanian aviation. No one said that Vuia was the first men ever to fly, and the essential note of having flown for the first time a self-propelled flying machine was made. Also, Coanda is generally acknowledged for being the pioneer of turboreaction engines for the airplanes; the fact that you don’t want to call that “jet flying” is a completely different matter. Starting from here, I fail to see the purpose of your digressions (not to say babbling) about communism, „Ştefan Gheorghiu”-type propaganda and the true but overused fact that they (the Romanian inventors) had to go abroad in order to be able to apply their ideas. I think this self-deconstructivist (Lucian Boia-like) view of history, as true as it might be regarding certain aspects, does (and should) not play any part in a (short) introductory movie describing a country about which the US pilots knew nothing. A final (real) story about “insulting the intelligence” of the American average people - with a college degree, in our case. I think no American would feel offended if I’m going to say that their view and knowledge of the world is departed between two big (and sometimes completely separate) spheres - “us” (US) and the rest of the world. A certain mid-western, otherwise intelligent, college graduated and Ma. American student was convinced that Austria was/is the capital city of Australia - he even write it down on a board. So, you might well have a hard time trying to “insult” common American intelligence/knowledge with something completely extraneous to US or their particular special interests. Perhaps we should use our time/energy for some more constructive discussions. |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 07, 2009 07:16 am | ||||
No, it was not lifted from there, I gave you the link from where it was lifted. The site I used is a .edu site that also gave the references behind its assertions: Who was the parent of reactive aviation?, American Aviation, December 5, 1955 Aubrey, Rene: He Flew In 1910, Flying, September 1956 Bie, Andre: The first turbo-propulsed airplane, Aviation Magaxine, No. 160, 1955 Green and Cross: The Jet Aircraft of the World, London, 1955 Encarta Encyclopedia, Microsoft, 1997
That shouldn't stop Coanda's invention from being appreciated and noted as being a first, a breakthrough. The French take credit for launching the first submarine propelled by mechanical power despite the fact that it had problems and was eventually ignored by the French navy. |
| Posted by: Radub May 07, 2009 08:06 am |
| Agarici and Imperialist, my "problem" is that we are the laughing stock of the world and we do that to ourselves. Digression over! Radu |
| Posted by: Imperialist May 07, 2009 09:18 am | ||
I disagree. We are special just as every other nation in this world. We can look at the glass half full or half empty. In my opinion we love to hate ourselves so most of the time we denigrate ourselves and our past while importing the worst trends from abroad. But I should stop the digression. Over from here too. |
| Posted by: Jeroen May 16, 2009 09:01 pm |
| I know something Romanians can be proud off. First of all I was impressed by the great hospitality I was met with by the people of Romania (while I toured all their country in early 90-ies). It might me realize that what I, from a western european country had always thought hospitality was, was nothing compared with how almost any Romanian offered me shelter, a bed, a place at their table, their time and friendship, help and assistance.... Hostility I only met from some officials, some military or other services....... Also I enjoyed most if not all of the products Romanian agriculture and cuisine had to offer, though I remember beer was not easy to get those days if you had no friends working at some beer factory. When the Romanian students had taken over the Stefan Gheorghiu campus and buildings from some economical, party university (somewhere near todays Plaza Romania) shortly after revolution we organised a party in the directors room at the highest floor of the building. with no beer or wine available we mixed our drinks ourselves. We had some sort of strange glasses which reminded me of old mustard or jam glasses, put a lot of sugar in it, added pressed citron/lemon and than poured fluids into it according personal taste. One fluid was 100% water, other fluid was 100% ethanol. I won t forget that party....... to all my old an new friends in Romania cheers Jeroen |