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WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Iran has RQ-170 Sentinel

Posted by: yugit December 06, 2011 06:27 pm

Well..it's again US throwing tax payers hightec RQ-170 a low observable unmanned aircraft system UAV into uncharted teritories, then denying the loss and later on reporting a loss in an area close to where the Iranians claimed the capture.This sounds like a Disney Land scenario to me.

No need mention the past enemy understimation starting with Pearl H. ,the Buldge, Poltawa Affair,Korea Vietnam,Iraq etc caused later on disastrous results. Rather than keep their mouths shut then attack, they conduct a reckless massmedia propaganda. Iran is obtaining SIGINT, COMMINT equipment as well training from the Russians a nation which is prospering from such deals,covered by the Iranian petro dollars revenues at Kharg Island.

Stalin neither Hitler made newspapers advertsing of their
future covert combat doctrines..when will the US finally learn ?

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img248/395/anyone1.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1

Alex

Posted by: Florin December 07, 2011 02:08 am

QUOTE (yugit @ December 06, 2011 01:27 pm)

I will keep my comment strictly on shot down UAV (you had extended the subject into wide-spread...).
You may remember (or you may not) that in the late 1990's the Serbs shot down two American UAV over Yugoslavia, and that was before the bombing of 1999.
The U.S. denied vehemently that they lost anything, and I can see now, almost 20 years later on Military Channel, that yes, they lost those drones to Serbian AA fire.

During the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia, the U.S. denied losing a Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk (Stealth bomber). As I promised to keep my comments to UAV's, you can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-117_Nighthawk
(see chapter "Combat Loss")

Posted by: Florin December 07, 2011 02:19 am

Fresh update - no denying any more:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-12-06/us-iran-drone/51685874/1

So I guess what was left of that UAV will travel to Moskow, like that Lockheed F-117 in 1999.

Posted by: yugit December 07, 2011 09:29 am

There is an old saying : those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it upon themselves.

What I was trying to say is that the Americans as a nation ,they were not
egger to learn from their past mistakes and keep doing the same mistakes
all over again,by now the history is repeating upon themselves...in a self
destructive mode.......in the Nuclear and Bin Laden age there's little margin
for learning the history.

The first link you posted depicting the "Predator " though their X-Mas
gift to the Ayatolas was one of the most sophisticated UAV initially
designed for the USN and shapped like a mini B-2 bomber. They try
to play the facts down and claim a wide variety of arguments, though
the most simplest apply......they've lost it.

I am fully aware about the war in Yugoslavia and I remember the facts
you cited. Well the Russians have already a copy of the F-22, the
copy of that drone will sooner or later leave their production lines in
Siberia or Ural.

If Internet, Madona, B.Spears and Mike Jackson would have existed
in WWII at the Yanks side, that war may have lasted much longer.

Posted by: MMM December 07, 2011 03:28 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 07, 2011 12:29 pm)

If Internet, Madona, B.Spears and Mike Jackson would have existed
in WWII at the Yanks side, that war may have lasted much longer.

I don't get it!
If the Internet existed prior to WWII, there might not have been a WWII! Also.it's highly unfair to put the Internet next to B. Spears!!!!!! There's no comparison between them, as there's no comparison between a Fiat 500 and the Soviet Union! (except they're both extinct...

)
And, as things go, I'd rather say that Beijing has the remains of the UAV rather than Moscow!

Posted by: Florin December 07, 2011 04:16 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 07, 2011 04:29 am)

.....the Americans as a nation ,they were not
egger to learn from their past mistakes and keep doing the same mistakes
all over again,by now the history is repeating upon themselves...in a self
destructive mode.......

You see, you don't get it. America doesn't make mistakes.
In America a perfect society is thriving in a perfect country. Because everything is perfect, why should they change anything? Because they don't make mistakes, is there anything left to learn?

Posted by: Florin December 07, 2011 04:25 pm

QUOTE (MMM @ December 07, 2011 10:28 am)

........ There's no comparison between them, as there's no comparison between a Fiat 500 and the Soviet Union! (except they're both extinct...

)
.......

Fiat sued Soviet Union when S.U. copied one of their cars. I don't say it was Fiat 500, and I don't know what type of Fiat was involved.
Fiat lost the lawsuit. I am assuming the Soviet engineers were smart enough to make some changes to the original. When this happens, it is more difficult to prove your project was stolen.

Posted by: yugit December 07, 2011 04:45 pm

Florin

Agreed....u've made the point.

MMM

China military cooperation with Iran is substantially
less than as in the past, most of it is done with Russia....

Alex

Posted by: Imperialist December 07, 2011 06:38 pm

I don't see what the big deal is. What's the point in developing something you think is too precious to risk using into "uncharted territories"?

Posted by: Florin December 07, 2011 07:52 pm

QUOTE (Imperialist @ December 07, 2011 01:38 pm)

I don't see what the big deal is. What's the point in developing something you think is too precious to risk using into "uncharted territories"?

You are right, when you build something you should use it.
However, there were good weapons not used just to prevent being captured. I am giving some examples, but this does not mean I agree with the fact the weapons were not used.

The Browning .50 caliber machine gun, created toward the end of World War I, was not issued to the American troops in Europe upon the concern of being captured by the Germans. The manufacturer had to survive at the brink of bankruptcy for more than 20 years, until they got plenty of orders in WWII.

The Gloster Meteor, the British designed jet fighter, performed some flights in Western Europe in late 1944 and early 1945. The British never dared to venture beyond the front line with Gloster Meteor, and never used it in any aerial fight.
They were concerned to don't lose any to the enemy.

The opposite extreme, also wrong, is to delay vital operations just for the opportunity to use new weapons. The offensive at Kursk was delayed with more than 2 months, losing surprise and allowing the Soviets to build defenses, just to have available the "Ferdinand" and the "Panther".

Posted by: yugit December 07, 2011 08:20 pm

Florin

Once again you have a point, I hear you !

Imperliast

There are 3 possibilities in here.

A. We are dealing in here with a USAF highly affected by the
budget and personnel shake ups , willing to take any risks
in order to prove their selfsuficiency to D.O.D and swim
with the current as the battle flags are now pointed towards Iran

B. A trick of NSA, CIA or you name it who wanted to trigger
and put at test the low and mid altitude AA defenses
of the Ayaltolas eagger to sacrifice new combat platforms
for such purposes

C. A distracted USAF UAV operator who was not alert on the
Iranian ELINT specialst units,and repeated the mistake
of an other buddy of his 3 weeks ago who killed Pakistani
Army personnel.

Since the US Armed Forces, along with NSA, CIA, NOAA
etc operating satelites which can spot even a dog on street
the need to sacrifice that mini B-2 was really superflous.....
so which of the above applies ?

Alex

Posted by: Imperialist December 07, 2011 09:22 pm

They didn't "sacrifice" it, they just used it. This wasn't the first time they did, only this time it crashed or the Iranians forced it to crash. Several months ago the US lost parts of a stealth helicopter in the raid on OBL's safe house in Pakistan. Stuff happens when you use stuff.

@Florin

What about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealing_a_Soviet_MiG

Posted by: ANDREAS December 08, 2011 01:02 am

Not entirely connected but...
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20111121-syria-iran-and-balance-power-middle-east?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20111122&utm_term=gweekly&utm_content=readmore&elq=f37ff6dd9cb84f5fb9bf5020e80fc7fa

Posted by: Florin December 08, 2011 01:23 am

QUOTE (Imperialist @ December 07, 2011 04:22 pm)

........
@Florin

What about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealing_a_Soviet_MiG

I knew a little bit about this, and this is a good opportunity to make a comment:
The Muslim leadership of Iraq trusted a Christian to fly the best plane available in that moment for Iraq, and the pilot rewarded their trust by defecting to Israel.

Posted by: Florin December 08, 2011 01:30 am

QUOTE (ANDREAS @ December 07, 2011 08:02 pm)

Interesting comments.
As we could see recently, Turkey is openly attempting to influence the politics in Syria. From all the players involved, only Turkey can afford to do it openly. The others (see the link offered by Andreas) have to do it in the shadows, because otherwise it can turn for the worse.

Posted by: 21 inf December 08, 2011 05:35 am

QUOTE (yugit @ December 07, 2011 11:29 am)

There is an old saying : those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it upon themselves.

...

And the aditions of famous Murphy> those who learn from history are doomed to make other kind of mistakes!

Posted by: MMM December 08, 2011 09:59 am

QUOTE (Florin @ December 07, 2011 07:25 pm)

QUOTE (MMM @ December 07, 2011 10:28 am)

........ There's no comparison between them, as there's no comparison between a Fiat 500 and the Soviet Union! (except they're both extinct...

)
.......

Hey, I never knew that! I just wanted to underline the fact that we shouldn't compare two things belonging to entirely different cathegories (aka: Internet, the biggest exchange of information tool vs "stars" made by television; I compared a huge country, the biggest and the meanest in history, with a small, cute car, without knowing there was any link between them; if I knew, I'd have chosen Chevrolet Corvette, for example!

Posted by: ANDREAS December 08, 2011 05:20 pm

Back to the topic... another link :
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20111207-covert-intelligence-war-against-iran?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=111208&utm_term=sweekly&utm_content=readmore&elq=61c3d5cf92574f8f96ec2446c9c8472b

Posted by: ANDREAS December 08, 2011 05:30 pm

And not to forget :
"The Covert Intelligence War Against Iran is republished with permission of STRATFOR."

Posted by: Radub December 08, 2011 05:50 pm

I agree with Imperialist. Technology was developed to be used. If only humanity thought along the lines of "do not take risks or you may lose", then we would still be climbing trees in Africa and plucking ticks from each other's furs.

All wars and conflicts involve loss of life and equipment. Just because your enemy gets his hands on your equipment, it does not automatically mean that they can copy it.
Germans copied Russian equipment, Russians copied German equipment. Americans copied German equipment.

Russians got their hands on American stealth technology lost over Yugoslavia. OK! And how did that benefit them? They shot down the U-2 in the sixties. Still did not manage to copy it.

Sometimes, copying technology requires more than a pile of mangled debris. Sometimes you need lasers, computers, composite materials, skilled labour and brains.

Radu

Posted by: yugit December 08, 2011 06:22 pm

Radu

Is not exactly as you say.When Powers was shot down they didnt
copy the U-2 because it crashed from high altitude and very
little of it was left, however some of the systems left intact were
copied. The LHX helo debries left after Landens raid were shown
by the Pakistanis to Shenyang Aircraft Ind.of China and without doubts
stay tunned for the Chinese copy. The F-117 parts were
sent to Russia by the Serbs and by now their Air Force and
Navy have their own stealth version.

For those of you who try to play down the magnitude of the
loss of the mini B-2 drone UAV please check the attached
photos.

Was captured almost intact,which shows that they brought it
down electronically ( signal interferance / guidance ) or
through an other wise method,therefore I don't agree with your
comments and none of the comments suggesting that it was to be used
and to be lost.....its a highly classified UAV of USN worth lots of millions
of tax payers moneys no matter how you turn the facts, period.

I also believe that there was a Russian involvement in bringing
this bird in this condition down .

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img23/2303/drone2uni.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1

http://img38.imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img38/6395/iranshowsdownedusdrone.jpg

Here what the US is saying about it :

Iranian military officials have claimed since Sunday they brought down an intact American spy drone--and now they are giving video tours of what looks to be a drone in apparently decent condition, in what is sure to be another humiliating poke in the eye for U.S. national security agencies.

"On Sunday December 4, the Iranian Army's electronic warfare unit downed the US RQ-170 Sentinel stealth aircraft which was flying over the Iranian city of Kashmar, some 140 miles (225km) from the Afghan border," Iran's Press TV said in its report Thursday.

My opinion: A huge loss for the US intelligence community....and many
heads to roll very soon at the planners and operators sites !

Therefore I repeat my original question, when will the Yanks learn ?
Al

PS: the UAV green color suggesting a radar echo repellent painting
or simply newly delivered from the factory.

Posted by: Radub December 08, 2011 06:52 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 08, 2011 06:22 pm)

Therefore I repeat my original question, when will the Yanks learn ?

Learn what? Do not try of you can lose?
"Fear of Failure" is a recognised psychological problem.
Radu

Posted by: yugit December 08, 2011 06:55 pm

To learn from their mistakes and naive approach.....nobody is talking
about fears etc...pse reviewing the beging of my topic

Posted by: MMM December 08, 2011 07:21 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 07, 2011 07:45 pm)

MMM

China military cooperation with Iran is substantially
less than as in the past, most of it is done with Russia....

Alex

So then the Chinese boasting about Iran and WW3 is just boasting? Might I ask how you know that?

Posted by: yugit December 08, 2011 07:30 pm

get a subscription to Aviation Week Space & Technology, its all in there

Posted by: Radub December 08, 2011 07:36 pm

Maybe they already learned from this "mistake".

Radu

Posted by: yugit December 08, 2011 07:44 pm

Maybe they did, at the moment is anything " but " learning. Hilary claimed
election fraud in Russia and as such she gave signal to new domestic turmoil
in Russia.....that promted Putin admin. to speed up their plans of deploying
their ICBMS at Kalinigrad and promote Hilary to a nongrata in Russia...some
of their ICBMS will be pointing and be targeting Rumania too ,well
yes the Yanks are definitely learning !...alt joc alt noroc Radu .

Posted by: Imperialist December 08, 2011 08:10 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 08, 2011 06:22 pm)

I don't agree with your
comments and none of the comments suggesting that it was to be used
and to be lost.....its a highly classified UAV of USN worth lots of millions
of tax payers moneys no matter how you turn the facts, period.

You misunderstood what I said. I didn't say the drone was meant to be used and lost. I said using it entails the risk of losing it.

Here's video of the drone in Iranian hands:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-state-television-displays-downed-u-s-surveillance-drone-1.400377

*note that the US says the drone actually crashed, so what the Iranians are showing may not be it (?)

Posted by: yugit December 08, 2011 08:35 pm

You have a point, but regretfully this UAV must have been brought down
by a warefare unit of the Russians , hard to believe that the
Iranian alone achieved all this.....the UAV shows minor damages
its no fake and the its the Xmas gift of CIA to Iran & Russia...the
reason that the auto destroy sys didn't work it could be well related
to auto pilot guidance sys during normal flight parameters and while
relay signal loss ocurred ...possibly the capture was airborne
and not post a crash landing.

I suspect that the USAF controlling unit station based in Pakistan
which was involved on an earlier incident whereby 20 Pakistani army
personnel were mistakenly killed ,that unit was asked by the
Pakistanis to evacuate the airbase within 5 days ,this could have
seriously affected their combat /logistical readiness . With certainty the
Russians, Pakistanis and Iranians have well coordinated this
event...Iranian alone wouldn't have made it......and it takes more
than one to cook a soup.

Posted by: Florin December 09, 2011 12:30 am

QUOTE (Radub @ December 08, 2011 12:50 pm)

.....
Sometimes, copying technology requires more than a pile of mangled debris. Sometimes you need lasers, computers, composite materials, skilled labour and brains.

Radu

Most difficult is to reproduce materials: metallic alloys, special ceramics, special plastic, special fuel... With no proper material, you have to design thicker, heavier, you cannot make to function at the temperature you want...
Sometimes without the right material you cannot go to the next step, whatever you try.

I had updated this post to mention that one minute ago I saw the captured plane in one piece, looking in good shape. Shocking! I also thought to be "a pile of mangled debris".
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/iran-releases-images-downed-u-spy-drone-171144210.html

Posted by: Radub December 09, 2011 08:36 am

QUOTE (Florin @ December 09, 2011 12:30 am)

Sometimes without the right material you cannot go to the next step, whatever you try.

Exactly! Without proper materials, tools and understanding, all you end up with is a cargo cult/coconut radio.

This may be a classic case of: "There are three versions of this story, your version, my version and the truth"

In all fairness, we have no idea what is going on. America will not tell us what they lost. Iran (not a stalwart of honesty) shows the world what can be a wooden mock-up made by skilled model builders. I personally would believe the Iranian footage if they showed the parts that are harder to replicate without an aviation magazine or the internet, such as for example the engines, electronics, sensors, etc. How about a component dataplate? How about a serial number stamped on a component? Why are the boastful Iranians so suddenly shy? Why pull the punches? I do not know about you, but I would not trust the Iranian government to tell me the time.

Radu

Posted by: yugit December 09, 2011 02:02 pm

Obviously there is a lenghty propaganda war going on,
Iran versus US & Israel...every side is trying to intimidate
the other , that's what Churchill stated once, that's not
the end that's not the begining, that's the end of the begining.

Every past armed confruntation started this way first.

Believing to what the Iranians are saying is like
believing to a story of flying to the moon with a sail boat.

However , fact is that they indeed have put their hands on
something big and they don't shy away from advertising this....
the future will show what the production lines in China
and Russia will bring up.

Posted by: Imperialist December 09, 2011 02:25 pm

QUOTE (MMM @ December 08, 2011 07:21 pm)

So then the Chinese boasting about Iran and WW3 is just boasting?

What are you talking about? Don't tell me it's that unsubstantiated "Chinese general said" thingy.

Posted by: MMM December 09, 2011 04:23 pm

Yes, Imperialist, that is what I said! I mean, since then a general "made in China" makes political declarations? I suppose that is (also) some kind of warning...

Posted by: Florin December 09, 2011 04:39 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ December 09, 2011 03:36 am)

..........
This may be a classic case of: "There are three versions of this story, your version, my version and the truth"

Radu,

I thought immediately that would be a "wooden mock-up made by skilled model builders". I did not mention here before your post.
My big concern is regarding available time. When did that happen? A week ago?
For a mock-up, that thing looks well done, smooth and with continuity between surfaces. And it is very big. Even with few dozens of workers and available tools, I am wondering if they could build such a thing in one week.

In regard with other components, or serial data plate, I remind you that the available clip is a part of the original Iranian movie. Maybe they had shown additional things for the Iranian TV viewers, and the movie was "cut" by the North American media. When you have something that modern in your hands, you show what you have, but up to a point. If everybody sees what's inside, why would China or Russia bother to pay for it?

Also, when you have something so valuable, you don't just jump and start to dismantle. Anything you may damage is irreplaceable.
So, we will see... If not from the mainstream TV channels, at least the Internet will clarify the matter in time.

Posted by: Imperialist December 09, 2011 06:35 pm

QUOTE (MMM @ December 09, 2011 04:23 pm)

Yes, Imperialist, that is what I said! I mean, since then a general "made in China" makes political declarations? I suppose that is (also) some kind of warning...

The problem is that the general's statement hasn't been confirmed, at least I haven't seen anything in the international press. The claim about such a statement was posted on a conspiracy site and parts of the Romanian press scooped it up and took it for a fact.

Posted by: MMM December 09, 2011 06:46 pm

Yeah, well, no official denial has been issued either! What's that mean?

Posted by: Imperialist December 09, 2011 07:57 pm

QUOTE (MMM @ December 09, 2011 06:46 pm)

Yeah, well, no official denial has been issued either! What's that mean?

It means that the Romanian press is stupid beyond belief.

QUOTE

La scurt timp după ce Statele Unite au sancţionat planurile Iranului de înarmare nucleară, generalul Zhang Zhaozhong, profesor la Universitatea Naţională de Apărare, a declarat că statul chinez va apăra interesele Iranului, "chiar dacă asta ar însemna declanşarea celui de-al Treilea Razboi Mondial", relatează infowars.com.

http://www.jurnalul.ro/externe/china-iran-sua-razboi-mondial-amenintare-598140.htm

So "serious" Romanian dailies got their info from... infowars, a conspiracy website. Pathetic.

But let's not be too demanding for a moment and check that infowars article. Maybe, just maybe, there is something legit in it, right?

The infowars article is based on a video report:

http://www.infowars.com/chinese-professor-threatens-third-world-war-to-protect-iran/

Go to 2:05 and watch. The video does not even give the general's original statement. It's only NTDTV's allegation that the general said that. When did he say that? Where? How about an exact quote? Nothing.

Why should we expect China to issue an official denial of something we're not even sure took place as such?

Posted by: MMM December 09, 2011 08:33 pm

So...
Radio Erevan has just opened a new Internet-based studio in Romania.

Posted by: MMM December 11, 2011 01:43 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ December 09, 2011 11:36 am)

I would not trust the Iranian government to tell me the time.

Radu

Yeah, especially since they're working with halves of hour...
http://www.iturism.ro/fus_orar.php
(OoT)

Posted by: Florin December 12, 2011 01:48 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd4vGszQhJw

The good shape of that "thing" makes me think the following: Iran did not shot down the drone. Maybe they were not even aware of it flying in their space. I consider the following options:
1. The engine/engines of the drone got a malfunction, stopped working, and the drone became a big glider. The electronically controlled flaps kept the "thing" parallel to earth, and then it landed. If the remote control via satellite was still active, the controller tried a "U turn" to extend the glide into Afghanistan, but maybe the border was "a bridge too far".
2. The engines were OK and the remote control got defective. The drone kept flying until run out of fuel, and kept gliding in straight line. Iran is a big country – something may run out of fuel over it.
In any of the above options, luckily for the Iranians, the landing was noted.
3. The paranoid version: The Iranians were aware for some time of the regular passing of drones from Afghanistan, and built a 1 : 1 mock-up over few months or weeks, to show it on their TV with the first opportunity. Under the paranoid version, the real drone maybe ash and shards in this moment. So, why bother to build the mock-up? Just to scare the enemy that they have functional the real one.

P.S. - Update: The following link seems to confirm my option no. 2 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=8pFe6G2xBf4

Posted by: Radub December 12, 2011 07:39 am

QUOTE (Florin @ December 12, 2011 01:48 am)

P.S. - Update: The following link seems to confirm my option no. 2 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=8pFe6G2xBf4

Ah well, if Fox News confirms it, then it is the real deal.
The only thing that remains doubtful is the Iranian side of the story that they "shot it down".
Radu

Posted by: MMM December 12, 2011 04:31 pm

Good one: Iran claims they'll duplicate it! A superior version, even! Will it com with a Coran attached?
In the samenews story, visits to Moscow - they don't ever bother to hide that!
http://www.ziuaveche.ro/top-secret/armata-2/iranul-sustine-ca-va-copia-drona-americana-rq-170-64590.html
Ironically, I thought Chinese were the appropriate choice for replicatingthings, but if they choose the Ex-Soviet style... well...

Posted by: Imperialist December 12, 2011 05:47 pm

Russia's Avtobaza hijacked the drone?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-05/news/30476929_1_jamming-tehran-iran-six-weeks

Posted by: MMM December 12, 2011 07:08 pm

Now that is an old speculation... a week old, so to say.
I wonder if 10 years from now they (of course, Hollywood!) won't make a movie about this episode; although I'm still waiting for some sort of Israeli move in this game, my best guess is that the entire RQ-170 episode will slowly get off the radar

, as none of the sides has much to gain from further public exposure: the Americans are embarassed, the Russians are (as usual) secretive and not very happy to show their real deck of cards; finally, the brave Iranians will have to admit either the foreign help, or the foreign interests operating on their "Vaterland".
But then, again, we'll see, won't we?

Posted by: Florin December 12, 2011 07:49 pm

QUOTE (MMM @ December 12, 2011 11:31 am)

That is why being engineer today is not what used to be in the past. A politician or a general may dream anything, but then is the engineer or the scientist who has to do it.
In a democracy, the only thing you lose by saying "this is not possible" is your job. And then you have to search for another... In a dictatorship, as you know very well, saying "this is not possible" can be very dangerous...

In regard with another matter, maybe the Chinese are the ones with the piles of money, but even they ask for help to the Russians when there is something at cutting edge of science. The Chinese astronaut went in space with Russian/Soviet technology.

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 12:40 am

It seems that my early predictions were correct. Here is what the US sources revealled and I still believe that the Russians had their hands in it too.

Iran guided the CIA's "lost" stealth drone to an intact landing inside hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to the US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the captured drone's systems inside Iran.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the Iranian specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it land in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in Afghanistan.

The GPS navigation is the weakest point," the Iranian engineer told the Monitor, giving the most detailed description yet published of Iran's "electronic ambush" of the highly classified US drone. "By putting noise [jamming] on the communications, you force the bird into autopilot. This is where the bird loses its brain."

The “spoofing” technique that the Iranians used – which took into account precise landing altitudes, as well as latitudinal and longitudinal data – made the drone “land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to crack the remote-control signals and communications” from the US control center, says the engineer.

The revelations about Iran's apparent electronic prowess come as the US, Israel, and some European nations appear to be engaged in an ever-widening covert war with Iran, which has seen assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists, explosions at Iran's missile and industrial facilities, and the Stuxnet computer virus that set back Iran’s nuclear program.

Now this engineer’s account of how Iran took over one of America’s most sophisticated drones suggests Tehran has found a way to hit back. The techniques were developed from reverse-engineering several less sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years, the engineer says, and by taking advantage of weak, easily manipulated GPS signals, which calculate location and speed from multiple satellites.

Posted by: Radub December 17, 2011 09:59 am

Yugit,
Anyone can be a "source" and anyone can fantasize about what happened.
Where did you get any of the above? Can you give us your "source"?

I would not trust a single thing coming from Iran. They have every single interest to look superior and rub America's nose into it. America will never explain the technical details and operation of their military hardware in use. This is pure high grade fuel for supercharged febrile minds!

In my opinion there is very little groundbreaking technology in that machine.
The aerodynamics and shape goes back to WW2 - Google "Horten IX / Gotha 229", or "Nurflugel" or "German Batwing". I saw the wings of the Ho IX in Udvar Hazy facilty of the NASM in June - only the wings are in Washington, the body of the Ho IX V3 is still in storage in Maryland. So America did not "invent the wheel" on this one. In the video I spotted something "familiar": one of the two Iranians is pulling up and then pushing down a "spoiler" from the upper surface of the left wing. That spoiler is present also on the wing of the Ho IX. It is a "steering" air brake.
The RAM coating is not something that US has a monopoly on... The Russians and the Chinese have their own versions.
The engines and controls are probably off-the-shelf equipment (why reinvent the wheel?) and I am willing to bet that many of the electronic components have "made in China" on them.
The sensors, such as cameras, infrared, radar, etc, may be the same as the gear used for more than a decade on Raptors, Reapers or Global Hawks (some of which were lost before). Why "reinvent the wheel"?
So, if you think about it, the only thing that may be unusual to the unwary is really the shape... Which as explained above, is news only for those without an interest in aviation.
All of the above can be replicated. BUT, the things that will be harder to replicate are the composite materials used in construction. For example, anyone knows what Kevlar is, you can get it anywhere, you can see it in so many products. But the chemical formula and the manufacturing process are still secret and impossible to replicate - often copied, never equalled. And without lightweight composite materials, this will never be copied.
Radu

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 10:12 am

This report is from Yahoo news yesterday.....

I am the last one on the earth to believe what
the Iranians are saying,though by working for
the last 26 years in the Aerospace industry,
I have followed the progress of the Iranian Aerospace Ind.
As an example they achieved a specific progress allowing
them to keep their F-4's and F-14's operational without
spares support from US. Additionally some of their
manufactured missiles seems to have passed the tests etc.

I don't doubt that they targetted the drone and made it land....
with or without 3rd partys help.....It will be a huge mistake
for US, UK, Israel and Europeans to underestimate their
technological progress. Noboday believed Sadam will
hit as far as Tel Aviv with the Scuds.....but he proved
the opposite

Posted by: Radub December 17, 2011 10:47 am

QUOTE (yugit @ December 17, 2011 10:12 am)

This report is from Yahoo news yesterday.....

Yeah, but who is the author, what is the source?
Yahoo News is a "news harvester" not a "news provider".

All I know about Iran is what I read in the news or on the internet and I do not trust any of it. Iranian authorities are pathological boastful liars. Others who seek a row with them embellish facts to make a case for war. The blind leading the blind. (or maybe "the blind leading the blonde"

)

Radu

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 10:54 am

Here you go....

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/iran-may-captured-u-stealth-drone-hacking-gps-030447469.html

Posted by: Radub December 17, 2011 11:07 am

QUOTE (yugit @ December 17, 2011 10:54 am)

Here you go....

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/iran-may-captured-u-stealth-drone-hacking-gps-030447469.html

No author and no proper quotes makes this "source" unreliable. There is nothing in the text to indicate that it was written by a "US Source".
Radu

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 11:22 am

I am sure you can use your own sources, beyond doubts they
brought down the drone either through a SIGINT landing or
capture in the air by means of aircrafts. I don't pay attention
to what the Iranians are saying but to what can be really
achieved by them given thier current technological status.

Posted by: Radub December 17, 2011 11:32 am

QUOTE (yugit @ December 17, 2011 11:22 am)

I don't pay attention to what the Iranians are saying but to what can be really achieved by them given thier current technological status.

No one knows for sure what happened, we only know what we are told.
The Iranians tell us that that they "brought down" the plane.
The US tell us that the plane "malfunctioned".
So, if you believe that the plane "was brought down", then you are paying attention to the Iranians.
Radu

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 11:49 am

You keep twisting the things....the drone malfunctioned fact
admitted by the D.O.D, thus enabled the Iranians to jamm
it and bring it down, this what I said and this is my firm
opinion,therefore once again you rush to conclussions in similar
to previous remarks of yours at an another topic regarding
some of my books,period.

Posted by: Radub December 17, 2011 12:39 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 17, 2011 11:49 am)

Yugit,
I am not twisting anything. I only know what you tell me. Anyone can read what you said.

What conclusions did I jump to? Thre are two opposing versions of events. US said "malfunction", Iran said "controls takeover". You never mentioned "malfunction". You stated that the Iranian technology did all the work by using an "existing weakness" - this describes an on-going "problem" rather than a sudden "accident" as indicated by the US "malfunction" statement.
Here are your statements:
- "according to an Iranian engineer..."
- "Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications links..."
- and "the Iranian specialists then reconfigured the GPS coordinates"
No "twists", these are your statements. And all of these statements from Iran, not US. I do not believe Iran!

What books are you talking about? You stated that you had a certain book that I also have, then I told you to go to a certain page and you confessed you did not actually have that book at all. Where is my "twist" in all this?

Radu

Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 12:56 pm

QUOTE (Radub @ December 17, 2011 12:39 pm)

Radu

whatever you say.

Posted by: MMM December 17, 2011 01:23 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ December 17, 2011 03:40 am)

Iranian technology? Iranian engineers? What are they called? Ivan Ivanovici or Chu-sun Tze? I wonder why the above-mentioned enemies of the USA keep letting the Iranians boast with this thing... perhaps an unofficial leak is to follow...

Posted by: yugit December 21, 2011 09:56 pm

Here is an other blow of the US Intel community and the German
BND...that is going to have serious implications in the next days
to come and is gonna hurt some employees of the US Government.

I believe that since Panetta was appointed as CIA chief a
guy with any experience by Intel, this community records
are worth a second grade classes. Maybe they need to
get some training from FSB ,BND, DGS ,MI-6 and MOSAD

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57346148/patriot-missiles-uncovered-on-ship-in-finland/

Posted by: Florin January 18, 2012 03:35 am

No comment:

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-mocks-us-toy-drone-174851478--abc-news.html