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WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Psichotronic weapons


Posted by: udar January 25, 2010 10:05 pm
It was a quite heated debate this days, about involving of some paranormal persons and using of psichotronic devices in politics debate. I wonder how developed are such devices, and how realistic they are?

It is mentioned a wide range of such unconventional weapons, from simple humans with parapsichological or paranormal abilities, to small devices or to bigger ones able to influence weather or produce earthquakes, or some able to influence peoples in large numbers emiting on all kind of frequencies. American HAARP program is often mentioned, as well high power lasers or "guns" with electromagnetic waves. Is this the future of war, or is just more a "psichological" war for influence some peoples?

Posted by: Victor January 26, 2010 08:21 am
Just a personal opinion: there are no such thing as para-psychological weapons or para-psychological individuals.

There is nothing "para-psychological" about weapons emitting electromagnetic waves (including lasers). It's pure science. From what I have read, most of the "microwave guns" and lower power lasers are used as "non-lethal" weapons, although being "blasted" by a high power microwave beam is not really peachy.

Posted by: dead-cat January 26, 2010 08:41 am
QUOTE (udar @ January 25, 2010 11:05 pm)
It was a quite heated debate this days, about involving of some paranormal persons and using of psichotronic devices in politics debate. I wonder how developed are such devices, and how realistic they are?

there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Posted by: Radub January 26, 2010 10:00 am
http://www.themenwhostareatgoatsmovie.com/ Watch the trailers
The thing is that this is based on a 100% true story. The US really and truly operated a service investigating the use of paranormal activities for military use. It came to nothing.

The fact that Romania is in the grip of such concepts and ideas demonstrates the level of ignorance and stupidity that is rife across a large swathe of the population.
This is a country where people have superstitions about everything. Even superstitions come with their own superstitions (you need to put something red on your baby to prevent evil eye curses).

I know a person who refused to go to a job interview because her horoscope said that she would have a very bad day. She was jobless for 5 moths after that. I also know somebody who broke his relationship with a lovely girl and among others, one important reason was that their "star signs" were not compatible. I met many Romanians who immediately categorise you by your birthday - "Ah, you are a fire sign, that explains why you do XYZ".
Believing that the energy generated by a star 200 thousand light years away had some cosmic influence over you when you were born is daft. Why choose a random star? Why not a bus passing by the hospital? Why not a coal-fired powerplant in China? They all generate energy. As a matter of fact, the X-Ray machine of the hospital where you were born generated thousands of times more energy than some faint speck in the sky. rolleyes.gif

By the way, a simple definition of "paranoia" is the belief that purely random items/events/people affect you in some way by the very fact that they occur.

Geoana's crass idiocy made headlines around the world. Never was the saying "you get the politicians you deserve" more true. laugh.gif

Radu

Posted by: udar January 26, 2010 12:08 pm
laugh.gif well, i know there are many peoples "affected" unfortunately by those bullshit stuff like horoscopes, zodiacs, fortune tellers, star readings and so on.

But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

Posted by: Radub January 26, 2010 12:57 pm
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 12:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

But you see, you confuse voodoo with science. laugh.gif The truth is that a lot of "fun fair" scientists come up with these kind of hallucinating concepts and the sad thing is that there are always idiots who believe them. For example, there are people who are convinced that science fiction writers like Erich von Daniken are actual historians.

High energy beans that can influence armour? Do you mean lasers? They have been around for ages.

Influence weather? Not new and not impossible. Google "Cloud seeding technology"

You want to see how much people re willing to allow themselves to be hoodwinked and manipulated? Have a look here: http://www.randi.org/site/
Iif you ever come across any other "paranormal concepts", then look up Randi's website and this http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html read it. You will be amazed a the extent of human stupidity - it is actually boundless.
The explanation of "psychotronic" given in the encyclopedia is self-evident.

Radu

Posted by: Victor January 26, 2010 03:55 pm
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 02:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

By very low EM radiation you understand low frequency EM radiation? If that is the case then a very,very strong ELF EM field is required to induce currents into the human body, but such a field is impossible (to my knowledge) to direct at something, thus it cannot really constitute a weapon, because it will affect also the person using it.

Posted by: 21 inf January 26, 2010 07:28 pm
QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 26, 2010 08:41 am)
there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Hahahahhahahahha, this was very good and inspired! They can really drive you crazy in only a couple of minutes, with a high ratio of stupidity! laugh.gif

Posted by: udar January 27, 2010 07:47 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 26, 2010 07:28 pm)
QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 26, 2010 08:41 am)
there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Hahahahhahahahha, this was very good and inspired! They can really drive you crazy in only a couple of minutes, with a high ratio of stupidity! laugh.gif

Hahaha, well, that is more like a psichological agression

Posted by: udar January 27, 2010 08:04 am
QUOTE (Victor @ January 26, 2010 03:55 pm)
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 02:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

By very low EM radiation you understand low frequency EM radiation? If that is the case then a very,very strong ELF EM field is required to induce currents into the human body, but such a field is impossible (to my knowledge) to direct at something, thus it cannot really constitute a weapon, because it will affect also the person using it.

Well, i remember i have an old book, from 70`, something like "Radioelectronica pentru toti", but i need to search it again. Anyway there was described some applications of EM radiations emitions, in diferent frequencies, in one instance is said that at one frequency a monkey used for researches was killed because its internal organs was burned/over heated, or that in some countries was made even small devices, who was used for inducing sleeping, bombarding the brain with low EM frequencies similar with ones emited by brain during his "alpha" stage or something like that, and ones was used even for sedating pacients for surgical operations. There are as well sonic (or ultra sonic) devices used against dogs or animals (as birds, on some airport areas), and i think the oportunity to make some weapons against humans wasnt forgoted.
I remember i saw a while ago, randomly, a Discovery Chanell show, about all kind of weapons, and was presented one used against protesters, was said, something like a rectangular solid antena able to focus a unidirectional emition against just one person, and make him to feel a very strong burning sensation.

Posted by: udar January 27, 2010 08:18 am
QUOTE (Radub @ January 26, 2010 12:57 pm)
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 12:08 pm)
  like stuff).

But you see, you confuse voodoo with science. laugh.gif The truth is that a lot of "fun fair" scientists come up with these kind of hallucinating concepts and the sad thing is that there are always idiots who believe them. For example, there are people who are convinced that science fiction writers like Erich von Daniken are actual historians.

High energy beans that can influence armour? Do you mean lasers? They have been around for ages.

Influence weather? Not new and not impossible. Google "Cloud seeding technology"

You want to see how much people re willing to allow themselves to be hoodwinked and manipulated? Have a look here: http://www.randi.org/site/
Iif you ever come across any other "paranormal concepts", then look up Randi's website and this http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html read it. You will be amazed a the extent of human stupidity - it is actually boundless.
The explanation of "psychotronic" given in the encyclopedia is self-evident.

Radu

Well, i dont think something like HAARP i mentioned is related with voodoo like magic tricks, but yes probably there are a lot of peoples more inclined to believe SF writers as Daniken, or that fairies and dragons exist for real, or that they can read in stars what will happen tomorow.
However, i dont think we can dismiss all as imposible. If i remember correct, French Academy (one of the best scientific forums of the world) told Traian Vuia that flying of a corp heavier than air its impossible, and British Academy said later about flying that even if will be possible, it will be imposible for humans, because at 100 km/h the air will be pulled out from human lungs, and peoples will suffocate being unable to breath. And the same French Academy said previously about stories that in Africa live an animal with a 3 meters long neck, skin colored like a leopard one, a horse like head with 2 small horns, that is fantasies, or about stories with stones falling from the sky that are superstisions and imaginations (those was called later meteorites and are real after all).

Posted by: Radub January 27, 2010 10:11 am
Do you mean this HAARP?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program
Do you mean this HAARP?: http://www.haarp.net/

Whch one is voodoo and which one is science?

I am not dismissing anything. I strongly believe in science and physics. The "scientists" you described existed and will continue to exist. Some of them will even get high positions and praise in Academies. Please try to find and read Bill Bryson's "A History of Nearly Everything" - you will see that for every scientist that was right, there was a scientist that was wrong. That only proves that humans even very "smart" humans are often wrong. However, all of these "inventions" that were "dismissed" such as the "aeroplane" or the "fast train" work based on basic principles of physics. None of them go against Newtons laws. None of these break any of Newton's laws. No-one ever managed to break any of Newton's laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws

However, none of these "paranomal" "energies" and "forces" make sense in a world ruled by what Newton summarised in his laws. These people try to convince us that it is possible to generate more energy than the energy that is stored. They try to convince us that it is possible to generate such energy without any effect on the source of energy.

Where is this "energy" coming from and, as Victor pointed out above, how can it be delivered without breaking Newton's Third Law? Simple! It is "paranormal"!

All of these "paranormal experts" would fail a basic 9th grade physics exam. biggrin.gif

Radu


Radu

Posted by: udar January 27, 2010 08:44 pm
Hi Radu

Well, in both links you provided can be find references to possible military use of HAARP, at weather modification at least on the famous wikipedia (which in this case i assume is the most serious site). As well, i said about other devices who use all kind of frequencies, who can interfere with human EM field, or brain EM field, as well ones who emit high power energy beams (microwaves or so, not just laser types) and ultrasounds. All of this dont escape the physic laws and have nothing to do with arange some candles in a X,Y,Z or whatever shape, and cut the throat of a black chicken in the middle of the night when Venus is meet Jupiter in a crossing orbit, or stuff like that haha.
It has nothing to do even with popular agreed facts like "deja vu", or "speaking about the wolf and he is at the door" or "you took my word from my mouth" popular says who can be somehow loosely related with a kind of telepaty.
All those devices i said are based on science, and not on some empiric one. And what i wanted to prouve in previous post, is that even the most highly regarded scientific minds can be wrong, and the science evolve, new things are discovered, etc. Science today doesnt reach the highest and most evolved point ever to be reached by humans, is just a phase, and i was interested by posibility that such kind of weapons (even if they are in prototype phases or so) to become the weapons of the future wars.

Posted by: Victor January 28, 2010 08:00 am
QUOTE (udar @ January 27, 2010 10:04 am)
Well, i remember i have an old book, from 70`, something like "Radioelectronica pentru toti", but i need to search it again. Anyway there was described some applications of EM radiations emitions, in diferent frequencies, in one instance is said that at one frequency a monkey used for researches was killed because its internal organs was burned/over heated, or that in some countries was made even small devices, who was used for inducing sleeping, bombarding the brain with low EM frequencies similar with ones emited by brain during his "alpha" stage or something like that, and ones was used even for sedating pacients for surgical operations. There are as well sonic (or ultra sonic) devices used against dogs or animals (as birds, on some airport areas), and i think the oportunity to make some weapons against humans wasnt forgoted.
I remember i saw a while ago, randomly, a Discovery Chanell show, about all kind of weapons, and was presented one used against protesters, was said, something like a rectangular solid antena able to focus a unidirectional emition against just one person, and make him to feel a very strong burning sensation.

There is a big difference between low and high frequency EM fields, including the way they interact with the human body.

The scientifically proven effects of low EM fields are the inducing of electrical currents in the body through two main mechanism: induction by the magnetic field and charging of the body surface by the electrical field. A high intensity field is required to induce currents dangerous to the human health and this field cannot be directed (as I already mentioned) and thus cannot be used as a portable weapon without affecting the soldier(s) operating such a weapon.

As the frequency climbs the effect changes to energy absorption, which differs in efficiency and pattern according to the frequency. Also, as the frequency climbs it becomes easier to direct the EM waves and the sizes of the antennas generally decrease. This is why microwaves could easily be used as weapons because it is easier to make high gain antennas that can concentrate the input power (obviously with some losses) in narrow beams which could easily be directed against an opponent without harming the friendly soldiers. The absorbed energy rises the temperature of the body and int he case of frequencies above several GHz, the energy is concentrated in the skin, hence the burning sensation.

There really is nothing new and spectacular about this. The effects were well known for at least 40-50 years.

Sonic waves are something different and should not be confused with EM waves.

Posted by: Imperialist January 28, 2010 08:21 am
QUOTE (Radub @ January 27, 2010 10:11 am)
However, none of these "paranomal" "energies" and "forces" make sense in a world ruled by what Newton summarised in his laws.

Where is this "energy" coming from and, as Victor pointed out above, how can it be delivered without breaking Newton's Third Law? Simple! It is "paranormal"!

Making no sense doesn't say whether they exist or not. They could exist and make no sense because we haven't scientifically figured them out yet.

Where do these buddhist monks get their energy from:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Or how about precognitive dreams? What physical laws do they break?

Posted by: dead-cat January 28, 2010 09:59 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ January 26, 2010 08:28 pm)
QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 26, 2010 08:41 am)
there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Hahahahhahahahha, this was very good and inspired! They can really drive you crazy in only a couple of minutes, with a high ratio of stupidity! laugh.gif

and http://www.cocalari.com is the success documented.

Posted by: contras January 28, 2010 10:04 am
Ralph Peters, military analist, said that in the future, maybe will be some dipositives that will can influence human behavior.
As a example, he said that when he listen rock music at the radio, he drives faster. biggrin.gif

Posted by: dead-cat January 28, 2010 10:07 am
without doubt, music does have an influence. back in the early '90ies, TVR broadcasted extensively Elton John's song "Sacrifice". then they walked the streets and asked people what they feel when they hear the song. one said "imi vine sa lucrez la strung".

Posted by: Radub January 28, 2010 10:19 am
QUOTE (udar @ January 27, 2010 08:44 pm)
All those devices i said are based on science, and not on some empiric one.

OK, show that scientific basis!
Radu

Posted by: udar January 29, 2010 09:41 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_control#Ionospheric_experiments

As you can see, it is possible to produce weather modifications even at global scale heating specifical parts of ionshere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura_Ionospheric_Heating_Facility

this is the russian equivalent

http://www.9am.ro/stiri-revista-presei/Incredibil/94425/Binoclu-care-reactioneaza-la-undele-cerebrale-ale-soldatilor-noul-proiect-al-Pentagonului.html

http://www.rexresearch.com/puharelf/puharich.htm

http://www.photonstimulator.com/Frequency.htm

diferent ELF and their possible effect to a brain/body

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html

a patent for observe and even modify brain EM waves, from distance. There are even on our market small devices who need to be keep in a pocket or so, close to you, for induce sleeping for ex.

http://www.measurement.sk/2005/S2/Lipkova.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance#Military

some says that music really have an effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

using ELF EM waves for comunicating with submarines all over the world. I assume that using them on much shorter distance will require way less energy and material and much smaller devices and can be used for other military purposes as well.

I know that this is a kind of new science, and some stuff can look weird, and as usual probably military are way before in researches compared with stuff revealed in media (keeping a secret about your achievments is a usual thing), i just want to say that from scientifc point of view some things can be prouved very well. For other things, as Imperialist present for ex., i think that science is not that evolved to undertand what really happen.

Posted by: Radub January 29, 2010 10:56 am
You did not show any "psychotronic", paranormal, unexplained "science" in any of these links. That is all just regular science. Some of them featured in a number of Discovery Channel / National Geographic programmes.

What is "influence the brain with Electro-Magnetic vaves?"

Please allow me to do a simple experiment: Think of a big, yellow, really juicy lemon. Did you salivate? Yo see? I influenced your brain. To do that, I sent this information via my wireless broadband internet connection. In other words, I used a radio signal (a form of EM radiation) to influence your brain. laugh.gif

Your mother ringing yo on the mobile phone asking you to come over for dinner and buy a bottle of oil and a kilo of potatoes on the way home is "influencing your brain and causing you to do something using electro-magnetic waves". Nothing scary or dodgy there. laugh.gif

Similarly, television uses radio signls to reach you and plant ides in your brain. laugh.gif

Stop watching ZeroTV - they are influencing your brain with EM waves. rolleyes.gif

Radu

Posted by: udar January 29, 2010 11:36 am
QUOTE (Radub @ January 29, 2010 10:56 am)
You did not show any "psychotronic", paranormal, unexplained "science" in any of these links. That is all just regular science. Some of them featured in a number of Discovery Channel / National Geographic programmes.

What is "influence the brain with Electro-Magnetic vaves?"

Please allow me to do a simple experiment: Think of a big, yellow, really juicy lemon. Did you salivate? Yo see? I influenced your brain. To do that, I sent this information via my wireless broadband internet connection. In other words, I used a radio signal (a form of EM radiation) to influence your brain. laugh.gif

Your mother ringing yo on the mobile phone asking you to come over for dinner and buy a bottle of oil and a kilo of potatoes on the way home is "influencing your brain and causing you to do something using electro-magnetic waves". Nothing scary or dodgy there. laugh.gif

Similarly, television uses radio signls to reach you and plant ides in your brain. laugh.gif

Stop watching ZeroTV - they are influencing your brain with EM waves. rolleyes.gif

Radu

rolleyes.gif OK, i give up, it seems we talk on diferent levels and your mind is already set on the fact that such things dont exist. First, you said that this are "paranormal" and not real and asked me if there are any scientific prouve that using diferent energies or diferent EM frequencies you can influence or affect peoples or/and enviroment in a way suited for a military use. Then when i present couple, you say that is regular science, nothing "paranormal". rolleyes.gif I realy dont get what you want after all ? I didnt said anything that such things are not real or scientific, i just use the usual name for them, "psychotronic" and that can be (and probably are) used for such purposes. The fact you tryied an "enveloping" atack saying that such things are from OTV is funny, but its a hit in thin air and not in target.
Not sure if in that link posted by Imperialist (the one from "Harvard") those peoples was influenced from OTV as well, better check out.
I didnt mentioned any old women magick tricks or horoscopes and fortune tellers predictions, i just mentioned that such devices and things can be real and used as weapons, and if can become the weapons of future wars.

Posted by: Radub January 29, 2010 12:56 pm
I am "after" nothing. This is a forum where we discuss things. I only mentioned OTV because it is boiling with conspiracies of violet energies and it is host to a bewildering collection of crackpots and weirdos.

Let us get back to discussing this.

You are the one who mentioned "psychotronic weapons".
Here is the definition of "psychotronic" from here http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html: Psychotronics A “science” that includes dowsing, radionics, and the construction and, as of 1974, the use of various “machines” that are said to focus and concentrate psychic powers. This is currently a very popular fad in Russia, though scientists there insist that the devices cannot be tested because of their esoteric nature. For the same reason, they also cannot be demonstrated. All rests on faith.

So... these are weapons that use the power of the mind. You did not show any link to any such credible device or any science behind any such device.

As for the weapons that can cause earthquakes and storms. Maybe you should separate them from one another. "Weather control" is something that has been tested and tried for years with some degree of success. "Cloud seeding" works but not always. For example, attempts at causing torrential downpours during the recent California forest fires did not work. Why? There was not enough moisture in the air. You cannot make energy from nothing. Newton said that.

A device that causes earthquakes is close to impossible because of the sheer unimaginable amount of energy needed to cause such a phenomenon. Nuclear devices cause earth tremors, but they are also terribly destructive in their own right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba The largest nuclear explosion ever caused an energy yield of 7.1 on the Richter scale. That is an immense amount of energy. Please make a simple calculation and tell me how much Electromagnetic energy is required to replicate that, how will you generate that, where will you store it and how will you escape its effects when deployed. Again, Newton is your friend.

A Buddhist monk can regulate his body temperature as a result of meditation, and that is evidence that the "earthquake machine" or the "gay bomb" work? Now, who is ridiculous?

Science fiction is fiction with a scientific basis whereby the fiction makes up for the limitations imposed by science. Do not confuse fiction for science.

Radu

Posted by: 21 inf January 29, 2010 02:10 pm
Well, an example of "paranormal" or "psichic" activities are the hypotesis that people can comunicate via telepaty. US Army and Navy conducted some experiments in 60's or 70's trying to develop some battle worthy "weapons". One example is, maybe, the use of radiestesy in Vietnam war in order to locate the comunist tunnel network to allow US troops to destroy it. This example I believe is well known.

Another example, I dont know if true, is when US navy take a female rabbit and her offsprings. The ofsprings were sent to a submarine and to a predetermined day and hour, with the sub in dive under water, were killed. The mother-rabbit was conected to EEG ( for "electroencefalograma") at the same day and hour when the little rabbits were killed on the sub. US military researchers tried to see if there is a conection by brain transmision between mother and ofsprings, under water, because the researchers wanted to see if a man-to-man comunication can be established only via telepaty. I dont rem the cited results of the experiment.

US military also used mediums trying to read from distance, for example playing cards. The mediums didnt managed to guess the right number to a statistical relevant number of playing cards, from the distance.

It seems that US army "paranormal" researches were lately dropped due to lack of practical results.

Posted by: Imperialist January 29, 2010 03:03 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ January 29, 2010 12:56 pm)
A Buddhist monk can regulate his body temperature as a result of meditation, and that is evidence that the "earthquake machine" or the "gay bomb" work? Now, who is ridiculous?

Those guys generated enough heat (energy) to dry several towels drenched in cold water. Without shivering. That's more than mere regulation of body temperature. And how about precognitive (prophetic) dreams? How do you explain them? My point was that there is more to this world than Newton's laws. Does that mean every "psychotronic" weapon theory is valid? No, not until proven valid.

Posted by: Victor January 29, 2010 04:23 pm
QUOTE (udar @ January 29, 2010 11:41 am)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

using ELF EM waves for comunicating with submarines all over the world. I assume that using them on much shorter distance will require way less energy and material and much smaller devices and can be used for other military purposes as well.


It's not about required energy, it's about building an antenna for this kind of frequencies, which is impossible to make small, portable and sufficiently directional.

Btw, the 50Hz electric grid that is allover your house will generate an ELF EM field everytime you turn an appliance/electric bulb. Do you feel any kind of life-threatening effect? We are talking about 220V and several Amps. It's not exactly low power, although it takes much, much more than that to induce dangerous currents inside your body.

As I said, the microwave weapon is clearly viable, but an ELF one is IMO not possible.

Posted by: Radub January 29, 2010 10:26 pm
I am talking about the "psychotronic weapons", respectively weapons using the power of the mind. We know that this is in the context of OTV's recent obsession with a "purple energy" device that w3as used to win elections.
Where is the scientific evidence of that? What is the science behind it?

Then there was a mention of some kind of "earthquake weapon". What is the science behind that? What energy does it use, how is it generated, how is it stocked, how is it deployed? HAARP, which was mentioned above, was also mentioned on OTV where "conspiracy theorists" claimed that HAARP was used to cause the earthquake in Haiti.

Until I see some evidence, all of this is quackery and weirdness passing as "science".

If it helps, you can get your tinfoil hat here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

Radu


Posted by: ANDREAS January 29, 2010 11:51 pm
Hallo Radu,
Because I read recently a german translated book "Psychotronic War, From Myths to Facts" by Igor Vinokurov and Georgij Gurtovoj, Moscow 1993, and intend to read the book "Razboiul psihotronic - campul de lupta mental" by General Doctor Emil Strainu, Ed. Phobos, 2006, I intervene in this discussion. The german translation of the russian book was credible enough even for a skeptic (as I am), and there are enough scientific evidence that you are looking for... I have no intention to convince you, or anyone else that this things are (were?) real, were tested and proved capable to produce powerful effects on human small collectivities (around 100 persons) - I only speak about Soviet Union, because I read about it, no idea if the devices were tested or not elsewhere... My invitation is (for everybody) to read and to maintain (of not) the firm beliefs only after... and without the slightest intention to offend anyone...



Posted by: Radub January 30, 2010 08:32 am
The "zvoner" and "raspandac" also appeared on OTV explaining how a "friend of a friend" saw with their own eyes this device that helped Basescu win the election. They also quoted "books" and "journals" that substantiate such devices. Lots of talk, no solid proof.
I am not a "sceptic". As I said, I firmly believe in science. Please explain the science behind this. That is all I have been asking for.
Radu

Posted by: udar January 30, 2010 12:41 pm
OK, probably i didnt write all very clear from the begining.

1- i had and i have no intention to mix this with any kind of political discusion, i just said i was inspired by that heated debate (who was pretty much at any television, not just OTV) to put this here, and discuss about such kind of weapons, which i called "psichotronic". It was not to discuss about one or another of some politicians who was afected or used such kind of devices, but if such weapons exist, how realistic are, and if this are the weapons of the future.

2- i am sorry i mixed as well the "human" part of the problem (as devices used by humans directly against other humans, or even "paranormal" powers of some humans) with the more technological part (as big devices based exclusevly on technology and used on big scale to influence weather for ex., EM fields of earth, ionosphere and stuff like that).

To mention what ANDREAS said, i think there are 2 parts, one, "psichotronic" war, or weapons/devices, and second, to paraphrase another book of the same general dr. Emil Strainu, "Razboiul geofizic" - geophisical war, where enter methods of influence weather, climate and other kind of natural phenomens.

I showed some scientist who talk about such things, ANDREAS mentioned some books of serious peoples, not horoscope makers who apear daily on TV, and Imperialist present an article from a prestigious university, contain something done by a human, but hard, if not imposible to explain by today science. Because is wrong, in my opinion, to believe that science today reach the edge, and there is nothing more to discover, and the science not need to evolve, or is infallibly. And when its come to new weapons able to give you the victory or the edge in the future, is wrong as well to believe that such things are easy recognized and presented by ones who have them.

Posted by: Radub January 30, 2010 03:45 pm
The only reason why this is such a popular subject now, and the very reason why we are having this discussion here is the claim that President Basescu won the election with the help of psychotronic devices, particularly one using "purple energy". So, here we have a clear, well defined claim of the use of such a "weapon". You say that we should not link this to politics. OK, let us not talk about the politics, let us talk only about the "application" of such weapons to win an election, and ignore the political figure involved in the election. Talking about the "weapon" and ignoring its "use" is like talking about, let's say, "the Romanian Army" and refusing to talk about any battles involving them. wink.gif

The only reason why OTV is mentioned here is because they are the only ones who have been covering the subject 24hours a day for the last few weeks. I do not think it is right to dismiss or ignore them - OTV is where the frontline is on this battleground.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DCF44E58A7A7E82C&search_query=psihotronic+OTV&rclk=pti

The fact that some people wrote books and some people claim to be "scientists" in "paranormal" fields proves nothing.
There are hundreds of thousands of books about paranormal subjects, all claiming to be "scientific": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

So, what is the science behind "Psychotronic weapons"?

Radu

Posted by: ANDREAS January 30, 2010 11:41 pm
From my point of view is a chance that the issue (psichotronic energies) was brought to the fore even trough slightly awkward fact as this political scandal. Surely I was not speaking about this political event since I don't believe that the president won because of his paranormal-abilities people. I was speaking only about the certainty of the existence of such weapons -field-tested for a time ago -and that some great powers (speaking about Russia) surely are in process of perfecting such weapons and use them in the future. And denial of this fact and the repeated application of scientific evidence for their existence is in my view proof of ignorance and also refusal of further investigation of the subject. I say this because there are clear possibilities for information on this topic, f.i. books, magazines, TV, Internet, where scientific explanation and examples are given and proved by experiments made. I do not intend to offend anyone nor to get into arguments and contraarguments on this subject, since serious authors who studied the phenomenon for years have spoken and proved its existence. I hope I was clear enough and hope to not be interpreted as having intentions to insult or offend someone.

Posted by: Radub January 31, 2010 09:07 am
QUOTE (ANDREAS @ January 30, 2010 11:41 pm)
And denial of this fact and the repeated application of scientific evidence for their existence is in my view proof of ignorance and also refusal of further investigation of the subject.

I asked repeatedly: "what is the science behind psychotronic weapons?"

So far we got no reply except for a dogma-like "believe and don't question" type of response and plenty of barely veiled insults.

In my opinion, there is more ignorance in this refusal (or inability) to answer a clear question than in asking for clarification.

Explain psychotronic weapons, make the evidence available to scrutiny for everyone.

Radu

Posted by: Imperialist January 31, 2010 01:14 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ January 31, 2010 09:07 am)
I asked repeatedly: "what is the science behind psychotronic weapons?"

So far we got no reply except for a dogma-like "believe and don't question" type of response and plenty of barely veiled insults.

In my opinion, there is more ignorance in this refusal (or inability) to answer a clear question than in asking for clarification.

Explain psychotronic weapons, make the evidence available to scrutiny for everyone.

Radu

Radub, I'm as skeptical as you are and I don't like OTV either, however I'm more open minded since not everything can be scientifically explained.

For example I asked you several times if you can scientifically explain prophetic dreams. I had them more than once. How was it scientifically possible for me to have dreamt an event some 4 or 5 days before it actually took place, my exact location during that event and the time of day in which the event takes place? How was it scientifically possible for me to have dreamt the exact subject of the exam next day? And in both cases I had more than 1 witnesses. I told them what I dreamt, joked around with them and dismissed that as mere dreams but then our "faces dropped" when the dreams turned out to be 100% accurate.

Posted by: ANDREAS January 31, 2010 03:37 pm
QUOTE
...we got no reply except for a dogma-like "believe and don't question" type of response and plenty of barely veiled insults.

Radu
Maybe I am wrong but if the sentence is addressed to me then I am sure I was misunderstood... or misinterpreted... because all that I wanted to say is that beliefs must be based on reading and research, not on assumptions and feelings... or better -read first, comment later! This was the point of my intervention, not at all to convince you of something, you don't want to believe... You understand now why I avoid to answer your questions, not because I can't, but because I intend to make you study and find your own answers. Hope you don't take it personally and you are not angry on what I said, since I had no intention to humiliate you in any way.

Posted by: Radub January 31, 2010 05:03 pm
Imperialist,
I do not think that my position in this matter is one of scepticism since I do not know what this is all about. Despite my repeated demands for clarification, no explanation was given.

Why do you tell me that "not everything has a scientific explanation"? Please address that to the people above who used terms such as "reputable scientists who wrote books". Surely, if these are "men of science", then some "science" must be involved. So, what is the science behind psychotronics?

As for your "prophetic dreams", this is neither the appropriate topic nor the appropriate forum. Also, I have no opinion on the subject since I have no evidence, information or knowledge about the subject/event you describe or even you as a person.

Andreas,
Please give me at least an idea what "psychotronic weapons" are based on. This is a direct and open request.

I tried to do my own "research", but to be honest, the results I came across on the internet do not look that good for the whole world of "psychotronics". All the stuff I found is wacky, shaky or eneveloped in this "mystique", "vagueness" and "je ne sais quoi" that you also seem to be a big fan of.

If we are to have a frank and open discusson about this, then let us put the evidence on the table for everyone to see. Just being vague and mysterious about it makes this whole cockamamie look just as ridiculous as it sounds.

Radu

Radu

Posted by: Imperialist January 31, 2010 07:19 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ January 31, 2010 05:03 pm)
As for your "prophetic dreams", this is neither the appropriate topic nor the appropriate forum. Also, I have no opinion on the subject since I have no evidence, information or knowledge about the subject/event you describe or even you as a person.

I think it is in the appropriate topic because you talked about the power of the mind and I used that as an example that not everything in this field has a scientific explanation. Asking for a full and clear scientific explanation is an impossible task.

Posted by: Radub January 31, 2010 08:31 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 31, 2010 07:19 pm)

I think it is in the appropriate topic because you talked about the power of the mind and I used that as an example that not everything in this field has a scientific explanation. Asking for a full and clear scientific explanation is an impossible task.

I did not "talk" about the "power" of anything. rolleyes.gif I asked for clarification about the principles that these "Psychotronic weapons" are based on.
Yes, we all guessed by now that we will not get a full scientific explanation. At this stage I think anyone will settle for an explanation of any kind. It seems even that may be hard to provide. biggrin.gif

What do you expect me to say about your alleged Flash Forward powers? Good for you! Congratulations! Can you "dream" for me what is the scientific basis of these weapons that can win elections?

Radu

Posted by: contras January 31, 2010 09:12 pm
@radub
@imperialist

I think this discution is out of topic and out of forum, too.

Posted by: Imperialist January 31, 2010 09:22 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ January 31, 2010 08:31 pm)
I did not "talk" about the "power" of anything. rolleyes.gif I asked for clarification about the principles that these "Psychotronic weapons" are based on.

What do you expect me to say about your alleged Flash Forward powers? Good for you! Congratulations! Can you "dream" for me what is the scientific basis of these weapons that can win elections?

Radu

You did say (on January 29):

I am talking about the "psychotronic weapons", respectively weapons using the power of the mind.

They're not powers, it just happened. I wondered if you are able to scientifically explain them in a world governed by strict physical laws. My mind should have no "image" of events and contexts that did not happen yet since their physical input was not perceived by the body and it was not processed by said mind.

This was just a handy example considering my personal experience of it. My point though was that some things apparently do not conform to to the laws (we currently know). So yes, at some point this boils down to direct experience and belief, since there's no generally accepted scientifical explanation. And even if these weapons existed I doubt those details would be found in open sources of information.

cheers

Posted by: Radub February 01, 2010 09:18 am
In that context "I am talking" was used as a turn of phrase to return the discussion to the topic.
I cannot possibly "talk" about this because I do not have any evidence or hard facts about the subject - hence my repeated requests for any information of any kind.

I think that your described personal experiences are off-topic and irrelevant here.

OTV are not the only ones to host this kind of discussions. Here is Jim Corr from the band The Corrs on the Irish RTE. http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065333 (near the end of the programme)
He also believes that HAARP caused the earthquake in Haiti. Again, he speaks very convincingly when he makes the claims, but he is extremely shy when it comes to explaining or backing them up. Sounds familiar? wink.gif

Can anyone explain the science behind HAARP causing earthquakes?
Can anyone explain the science behind mind control devices that can win elections?

Radu

Posted by: udar February 01, 2010 10:08 am
Well, i think there are 2 sides of the coin. One is the sensationalist part, often with exagerations and mixed with conspiracy theories or occult stuff hard to verify, and even with fakes. The second one is based on "field" researches (even if just verifying the results and not being able to understand the mechanisms involved) and in technical devices (the most scientific created and posible to explain at this level of knowledge).

Beside the authors mentioned by ANDREAS (respected persons), i find another interesting book, this time about a part of american program:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=D-1yt3PhqhwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=PSI+Spies:+The+True+Story+of+America%27s+Psychic+Warfare+Program++De+Jim+Marrs&source=bl&ots=SwonlbMt6p&sig=n0G8Z9bShW-V3eVY9tsiDEFHXbs&hl=ro&ei=Q6NmS7_WOpiImgP-15wb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

There is as well the radiestesy mentioned by "21 inf" used by americans in Vietnam, (the so called "fantanari" here), or experiances as ones described by Imperialist (including the one done at Harvard, where was many witneses).
I presented as well some technical devices used for "read" and even affect from distance brain EM waves, or microwaves used as weapons

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327185.600-microwave-weapon-will-rain-pain-from-the-sky.html

Even on wikipedia is mentioned as well that HAARP can be used to produce weather changes betwen other things. And is obvious from a logic point of view that some capacities of such devices are still keept secret from the public eyes, and will not appear easily "in light".
Another problem is to believe that science is so evolved then can explain everything, and all who is beyond that, is not real. In pretty much any eras scientist believed that, that they represented the ultimate knowledge, and i present the theories of the most advanced minds back then, who said that is imposible to fall stones from the sky, the flight with a machine heavier then air is imposible, as well is imposible for a human to survive if its move with over 100 km/h. Science is still need to evolve, and to be stuck in what is know today, for general public, is wrong in my view.
See a quote from the same wiki:
" The boundary lines between the science and pseudoscience are disputed and difficult to determine analytically....There are well-known cases of fields that were originally considered pseudoscientific but which are now accepted scientific effects or valid hypotheses" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

As well, i dont try to forcefuly convince anyone about this, and i avoided to give any conection with political campagne. I was just inspired by that debate, but i dont want to relate or reduce this topic to a discusion about what said or done a politician, or if Pavel Corut appeared at OTV. I wanted to be a discussion about the possible weapons of the future, or future wars, and how realistic they are.

Posted by: Radub February 01, 2010 10:49 am
Udar,

What is a "respected person"? Pavel Corut is "respected" by many, but he is evidently a man troubled by many afflictions. "Respect" does not always equal "truth".

Anything can be described interms of the "occult" and "paranormal". Try to describe a mobile phone to a medieval man.

The first link you provided, showed that attempts were made to create a machine that controls the mind WITHOUT much success.

The second link leads to a weapon that causes burns using microvawes. Microwave overns have been using the same principle for the last few decades.

I am not looking for a row. I am looking for a simple, clear, explanation.

How you think HAARP caused an earthquake and why would the Americans use it against Haiti instead of, let's say, Iran?

How do you think a psychotronic device was used to win an election?

Imagine I am a medieval person and you wish to explain to me how these things work using simple words that I can undrstand.

Radu






Posted by: Victor February 01, 2010 01:05 pm
QUOTE ("udar")
I presented as well some technical devices used for "read" and even affect from distance brain EM waves


Which devices? What are effects of these devices?

QUOTE ("udar")
or microwaves used as weapons

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327185.600-microwave-weapon-will-rain-pain-from-the-sky.html


As I already said, the thermal effect of EM waves with frequencies over 10 Mhz is well known and has been documented for several decades now. There is nothing "psychotronic" about it.

Posted by: Imperialist February 01, 2010 07:17 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 01, 2010 09:18 am)
I think that your described personal experiences are off-topic and irrelevant here.

I brought them up for a reason and that reason was to tell you there are things that are not subjected to Newtonian laws. Precognitive dreams are sometimes discussed in Journals of Parapsychology or Journals of Philosophy and are known to exist. However there is no clear-cut scientific explanation for them. But nevermind. Forget I said anything.

take care

Posted by: Radub February 01, 2010 08:02 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ February 01, 2010 07:17 pm)
SNIP: "there are things that are not subjected to Newtonian laws."

SNIP: "sometimes discussed in Journals of Parapsychology or Journals of Philosophy and are known to exist."

So are leprechauns, warlocks and Harry Potter. You can get a PhD in Klingon language. There are sizeable tomes dedicated to the Star Wars Universe. There are thick books about Tarot readings, astrology or telling the future by looking at animas entrails. There are tons of books written on all kinds of subjects that are the offspring of peoples' minds. The fact that someone dedicates a lot of time to write about it does not make it real.

Have you got anything to say on the topic?

Radu

Posted by: udar February 01, 2010 08:33 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ February 01, 2010 01:05 pm)
QUOTE ("udar")
I presented as well some technical devices used for "read" and even affect from distance brain EM waves


Which devices? What are effects of these devices?

QUOTE ("udar")
or microwaves used as weapons

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327185.600-microwave-weapon-will-rain-pain-from-the-sky.html


As I already said, the thermal effect of EM waves with frequencies over 10 Mhz is well known and has been documented for several decades now. There is nothing "psychotronic" about it.

This is those devices i showed previously

http://www.measurement.sk/2005/S2/Lipkova.pdf

this is for "reading" from distance the brain ELF waves

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html

and this is for both "read" and "affect" those waves.

But as i said before, this are probable stuff released for public view, very probable more developed ones are still keept for military or secret use.

About microwaves, or high energy or frequency waves, i mentioned them as being from the same category with ELF devices, as using a kind of simple energy instead of matter or a physical stuff for creating an effect on a target.

Posted by: udar February 01, 2010 08:51 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 01, 2010 10:49 am)
Udar,

What is a "respected person"? Pavel Corut is "respected" by many, but he is evidently a man troubled by many afflictions. "Respect" does not always equal "truth".

Anything can be described interms of the "occult" and "paranormal". Try to describe a mobile phone to a medieval man.

The first link you provided, showed that attempts were made to create a machine that controls the mind WITHOUT much success.

The second link leads to a weapon that causes burns using microvawes. Microwave overns have been using the same principle for the last few decades.

I am not looking for a row. I am looking for a simple, clear, explanation.

How you think HAARP caused an earthquake and why would the Americans use it against Haiti instead of, let's say, Iran?

How do you think a psychotronic device was used to win an election?

Imagine I am a medieval person and you wish to explain to me how these things work using simple words that I can undrstand.

Radu

Hmm, i dont understand why you keep mention the elections and OTV, as well refusing to acomplish that science as we know today is not infallible, nor its reached the last level of possible knowledge.

I didnt mentioned Pavel Corut in what i write, even if he can be as well a respectable person. The fact that he appeared at OTV and talked about religion or so, is your prouve that psichotronic weapons dont exist? I said about book mentioned by ANDREAS, as well about couple books of general dr. Emil Strainu.

Now about the links i provided, first show how some humans was succesful in doing what was called "remote viewing" (and not just), which is considered by many a "paranormal" stuff. But for this, science dont have yet a clear explanations, as you ask. Its like in those examples i showed previously when they refused to consider is possible or real/realistic some things (flying, meteorites, etc.) that they dont understand or believe is possible. But those things was real and possible ofcourse.
I didnt say either HAARP was used against Haiti (why you ask me that dont know), i said HAARP can produce weather changes and other interference in ionosphere or earth EM field.

Posted by: Imperialist February 01, 2010 10:44 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 01, 2010 08:02 pm)
So are leprechauns, warlocks and Harry Potter. You can get a PhD in Klingon language. There are sizeable tomes dedicated to the Star Wars Universe. There are thick books about Tarot readings, astrology or telling the future by looking at animas entrails. There are tons of books written on all kinds of subjects that are the offspring of peoples' minds. The fact that someone dedicates a lot of time to write about it does not make it real.

Have you got anything to say on the topic?

Radu

Mocking is very easy. But people with Ph.D.s actually did work on scientifically measuring and explaining those occurrences:

http://www.parapsych.org/history_of_pa.html

They did not manage to be accepted by mainstream science but I think over the decades they have gathered enough quantitative and qualitative analyses so as to be kept outside the "leprechauns and warlocks" category.

My point was that there are still unexplainable things out there. In my opinion it's a decent statement and I don't understand why it's so hard for you to accept it. Is it dogmatism or reluctance to accept you/we might not know everything there is?

Posted by: Victor February 02, 2010 08:41 am
QUOTE (udar @ February 01, 2010 10:33 pm)
But as i said before, this are probable stuff released for public view, very probable more developed ones are still keept for military or secret use.

About microwaves, or high energy or frequency waves, i mentioned them as being from the same category with ELF devices, as using a kind of simple energy instead of matter or a physical stuff for creating an effect on a target.

QUOTE ("udar")
This is those devices i showed previously

http://www.measurement.sk/2005/S2/Lipkova.pdf


This is a device that detects a magnetic field in anechoic chamber, without being able to tell from which direction is coming. I fail to see how this device can "read" brainwaves and how it can distinguish between brainwaves and other ELF EM sources. There are many years since this kind of detectors have been around and presently ELF measurement devices have reached a much higher level of sophistication than this primitive device (just google Narda and look at their ELF products). However, these devices can only measure the magnetic or the electric field on certain frequencies or in certain frequency bands. They cannot "read" them.

QUOTE ("udar")
URL=http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html]http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html[/URL]

and this is for both "read" and "affect" those waves.


This is a patent. It does not mean it actually works, especially since is from the 70s and until now this device has not replaced the EEG which it claims to be obsolete (in case you actually read the contents of the patent). This is a clear indication of the fact that it actually does not work.

The principle it is based on is the supposed properties of the human brain to act as a mixer and modulator of two radio carriers. There is no scientific evidence that the brain can act as mixer or even as a modulator of a radio carrier. Thus it is technically impossible to "read" brainwaves using the technique described in this patent.

"Affecting" the brainwaves according to this patent is apparently simple, but is is again based on a phenomenon which is not scientifically proven: altering the brainwaves using a radio wave. The author goes as far as claiming that microwaves could also be used (frequencies up to 40 GHz, as he claims), microwaves that will not actually be able to even penetrate the skull.

QUOTE ("udar")
About microwaves, or high energy or frequency waves, i mentioned them as being from the same category with ELF devices, as using a kind of simple energy instead of matter or a physical stuff for creating an effect on a target.


The difference lies in the fact that one can actually make weapons using microwaves, while ELF do not have a clear weapons potential, with the exception of the Taser (which is static field if I am not mistaken, so not exactly ELF).

Posted by: Radub February 02, 2010 09:09 am
OK, I don't get it!

Someone mentioned that it is possible to make "psychotronic devices" that can manipulate people to do all sorts of things against their will. I asked for clarification. I was told to look it up by myself. I did. I found out that such "devices" were already used in Romania to win an election. I found out that respected people stated this. I found out that authors with many published books believe this. I found out that a large section of the Romanian population believe this to be a true fact. I found out that OTV is dedicating a lot of time to the subject. This is massive! Is this not true? Should we ignore this? Why?

Someone mentioned that HAARP is developing unconventional weapons. I asked for clarification. I was told to look it up by myself. I did. I found out that HAARP was linked to the eartquake in Haiti. This claim was made by respected people including the president of one country and authors who published many books. A large section of the internet readers believe this to be true. This is massive! Is this not true? Should we ignore this? Why?

I tried really hard to find out anything serious or clear about these "issues", but I found only wackery and stupidity enveloped in pseudoscientific speech. I asked rpeatedly for some evidence. I am still waiting for any kind of coherent answer.

Imperialist, I was not mocking. It is a FACT that a lot of time and space is dedicated to subjects born out of people's imagination. There is nothing wrong with fantasy, science ficton, escapist literature, etc. I read a lot of such literature myself. HOWEVER, reality is not a popularity cotest - it does not matter how many people "believe", it will not turn fiction into fact. You must learn to make a distinction between fact and fiction.

Radu

Posted by: Imperialist February 02, 2010 05:49 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 02, 2010 09:09 am)
OK, I don't get it!

Someone mentioned that it is possible to make "psychotronic devices" that can manipulate people to do all sorts of things against their will.

Imperialist, I was not mocking. It is a FACT that a lot of time and space is dedicated to subjects born out of people's imagination. There is nothing wrong with fantasy, science ficton, escapist literature, etc. I read a lot of such literature myself. HOWEVER, reality is not a popularity cotest - it does not matter how many people "believe", it will not turn fiction into fact. You must learn to make a distinction between fact and fiction.

Radu

From what I remember Geoana never claimed he did actions against his will. He said someone in the room during the debate energetically targeted him and he didn't quite feel himself that evening. Then his wife backed him and said they both felt sapped of energy and unable to focus.

Well I guess you have to send a memo to these folks and tell them they're imagining things and filling their time with star wars studies:

http://www.parapsych.org/member_index.html

cheers

Posted by: Radub February 02, 2010 06:16 pm
Imperialist,
I have no problem with people studying ficton and science fiction and imaginary concepts to whatever depth they see fit. I read a good amount of science fiction and I love it.
A life dedicated to studyig Klingon language or Star Wars history is not a waste life and often gives a purposeful meaning to someone's life. I do not see any problem when someone claims that they belong to the "Jedi Church". However, I see it as a problem when someone claims to be able to saunter through the air and move objects using "the force" because he "is a Jedi". One is "fun", the other is "odd".

In many countries, "astrology", "horoscopes", "fortune telling", "palmistry", "seances", "ghosthunting", "presitidigitation", etc. are categorised as "entertainment". You believe that they are a "science". These subjects generate an immense amount of literature. That does not make it a science nor does it make it real.

You claim to have supernatural powers. Once again, congratulations! How about you take James Radi's challenge: http://www.randi.org/site/ He is offering one million dollars to anyone who can prove paranormal phenomena. Alternatively, you can have a "prophetic dream" about the wining numbers of the next lottery draw and win your own million.

Radu

Posted by: udar February 02, 2010 07:49 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 02, 2010 09:09 am)
OK, I don't get it!

Someone mentioned that it is possible to make "psychotronic devices" that can manipulate people to do all sorts of things against their will. I asked for clarification. I was told to look it up by myself. I did. I found out that such "devices" were already used in Romania to win an election. I found out that respected people stated this. I found out that authors with many published books believe this. I found out that a large section of the Romanian population believe this to be a true fact. I found out that OTV is dedicating a lot of time to the subject. This is massive! Is this not true? Should we ignore this? Why?

Someone mentioned that HAARP is developing unconventional weapons. I asked for clarification. I was told to look it up by myself. I did. I found out that HAARP was linked to the eartquake in Haiti. This claim was made by respected people including the president of one country and authors who published many books. A large section of the internet readers believe this to be true. This is massive! Is this not true? Should we ignore this? Why?

I tried really hard to find out anything serious or clear about these "issues", but I found only wackery and stupidity enveloped in pseudoscientific speech. I asked rpeatedly for some evidence. I am still waiting for any kind of coherent answer.

Imperialist, I was not mocking. It is a FACT that a lot of time and space is dedicated to subjects born out of people's imagination. There is nothing wrong with fantasy, science ficton, escapist literature, etc. I read a lot of such literature myself. HOWEVER, reality is not a popularity cotest - it does not matter how many people "believe", it will not turn fiction into fact. You must learn to make a distinction between fact and fiction.

Radu

Hmm, who said that those devices can manipulate peoples? I said that such devices can affect peoples, not that they are become "guided" as a robot with a remote control.
As i said, there are two faces of the coin, and you always choose to see just one of them, convenient for your believe, the sensationalist and often mambo-jumbo part, OTV and its old women fortune tellers and Hugo Chavez declarations against US, astrology, horoscopes and science-fiction (even if some stuff who appeared there was realized for real some time after) and avoid to see the most serious part of the problem.
Yes, some peoples write books, some of them was presented here. Do you think that those peoples invented this? Do you think that their evidences are fakes? Some stuff (both humans used or technical devices) apeared just after fall of USSR and comunism, others after some american archives was declasified. And that are probably just stuff released for public view, the most developed ones are probably still keept in secret, how is logical. Even on the wikipedia, on HAARP article, which you provided, is said about possible weather modifications done by that, which can be a part of geophysical war. And this are not "magicians" and fortune tellers de-conspired as fakes by Randy, but peoples and devices used by secret services and armies.
As well, despite the evidences that many times the science was "blind" and wasnt able to see well the reality, you are firmly in your believe that everything that is not imediatly explained by the level of today science, or by Newton laws, is not real or possible. Its a dialog of deafs here, each of ones who present their opinion doesnt look to change his mind, so everybody is free to believe what he wants.

Posted by: udar February 02, 2010 08:00 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ February 02, 2010 08:41 am)
QUOTE (udar @ February 01, 2010 10:33 pm)
But as i said before, this are probable stuff released for public view, very probable more developed ones are still keept for military or secret use.

About microwaves, or high energy or frequency waves, i mentioned them as being from the same category with ELF devices, as using a kind of simple energy instead of matter or a physical stuff for creating an effect on a target.

QUOTE ("udar")
This is those devices i showed previously

http://www.measurement.sk/2005/S2/Lipkova.pdf


This is a device that detects a magnetic field in anechoic chamber, without being able to tell from which direction is coming. I fail to see how this device can "read" brainwaves and how it can distinguish between brainwaves and other ELF EM sources. There are many years since this kind of detectors have been around and presently ELF measurement devices have reached a much higher level of sophistication than this primitive device (just google Narda and look at their ELF products). However, these devices can only measure the magnetic or the electric field on certain frequencies or in certain frequency bands. They cannot "read" them.

QUOTE ("udar")
URL=http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html]http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951134/description.html[/URL]

and this is for both "read" and "affect" those waves.


This is a patent. It does not mean it actually works, especially since is from the 70s and until now this device has not replaced the EEG which it claims to be obsolete (in case you actually read the contents of the patent). This is a clear indication of the fact that it actually does not work.

The principle it is based on is the supposed properties of the human brain to act as a mixer and modulator of two radio carriers. There is no scientific evidence that the brain can act as mixer or even as a modulator of a radio carrier. Thus it is technically impossible to "read" brainwaves using the technique described in this patent.

"Affecting" the brainwaves according to this patent is apparently simple, but is is again based on a phenomenon which is not scientifically proven: altering the brainwaves using a radio wave. The author goes as far as claiming that microwaves could also be used (frequencies up to 40 GHz, as he claims), microwaves that will not actually be able to even penetrate the skull.

QUOTE ("udar")
About microwaves, or high energy or frequency waves, i mentioned them as being from the same category with ELF devices, as using a kind of simple energy instead of matter or a physical stuff for creating an effect on a target.


The difference lies in the fact that one can actually make weapons using microwaves, while ELF do not have a clear weapons potential, with the exception of the Taser (which is static field if I am not mistaken, so not exactly ELF).

Hi Victor
Well, this was from a short search on internet, didnt have time for more but i saw you find something interesting as well (about Narda). As you can see, is possible to measue some EM fields even from distance, and i read is possible to affect that as well (dont find posted on internet, was from books), thus such devices arent advertised for public masses, ofcourse.

Posted by: Radub February 02, 2010 09:17 pm
QUOTE (udar @ February 02, 2010 07:49 pm)
As I said, there are two faces of the coin, and you always choose to see just one of them, convenient for your believe

Udar, there is an old saying "when you hang around with pigs you eventually end up in shi... muck". The truth of the matter is that this "subject" has been taken over by the weirdos and wackos (the "pigs" in the saying). The only way to counteract them and their effect on how the "subject" is viewed by the others is to present as much serious and solid evidence as possible. That is all I have been asking for: show me something to believe in. I got nothing so far. So, if I have nothing to "believe" in, it is not really my fault. So far, there is little "choice" for me.

Radu

Posted by: Imperialist February 03, 2010 08:56 am
QUOTE (Radub @ February 02, 2010 06:16 pm)
You claim to have supernatural powers.

Alternatively, you can have a "prophetic dream" about the wining numbers of the next lottery draw and win your own million.

Radu

I never claimed I have supernatural powers. All I said was that I had 2 completely clear and accurate prophetic dreams. I did not plan to have them, I did not invoke something before going to bed, I did not drink a special concoction and I did not wear a set of pijamas with a big S on them. They just happened and there is no scientific explanation for them.

QUOTE
In many countries, "astrology", "horoscopes", "fortune telling", "palmistry", "seances", "ghosthunting", "presitidigitation", etc. are categorised as "entertainment". You believe that they are a "science". These subjects generate an immense amount of literature. That does not make it a science nor does it make it real.


Nope, I never claimed those things are science. All I claimed was that precognitive dreams exist (I experienced them myself) and I found out that a large group of persons from the academic world have worked for decades to give a scientifical explanation to them (among other things). Their results have not been accepted by the mainstream science community. So that leaves me to say there are things beyond what the current scientific knowledge can or is willing to explain.

Posted by: dragos February 03, 2010 09:51 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ February 03, 2010 10:56 am)
All I claimed was that precognitive dreams exist (I experienced them myself)

I'm not interested in such things, but the fact that you claim that you experienced prophetic dreams cannot serve as a proof that they exist.

However, have you ever doubted your mental sanity? biggrin.gif

Posted by: Victor February 03, 2010 09:53 am
QUOTE (udar @ February 02, 2010 10:00 pm)

Well, this was from a short search on internet, didnt have time for more but i saw you find something interesting as well (about Narda). As you can see, is possible to measue some EM fields even from distance, and i read is possible to affect that as well (dont find posted on internet, was from books), thus such devices arent advertised for public masses, ofcourse.

I work with Narda devices. I have three of them at work and I use them from time to time. I know more about measuring the EM field and its effects on humans than the average Joe.

The issue was never about detecting and measuring EM fields. Devices for this have been around for many years and they are not weapons unless you decide to repeatedly hit someone on the head with them. It was about influencing the brainwaves with a "weapon" in a desired way, which in this moment is not technically possible. Furthermore there is no scientific knowledge on how to influence the brainwaves in order to get a certain effect from the individual targeted by this supposed weapon.

It was also about reading brainwaves remotely. It is one thing to detect a magnetic field on a certain frequency, it is a totally different thing to be able to tell if it is a brainwave or not and more importantly where is it coming from. We are surrounded by ELF EM fields due to the electrical appliances and the electrical grid we use. Thus the spectrum is not clean and given the low intensity of the brainwaves, they could be easily be hidden below the noise floor and thus impossible to "read". The Slovak experiment was done in anechoic chamber, not in a real environment and there was no information regarding the distance between the person and the loop antenna for the measurement which yielded the peak in Fig. 3. For all we know the guy could have worn the coil on his head.

I know that the EM field sounds as something very mystic too many people, but it actually isn't.

Posted by: Radub February 03, 2010 10:16 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ February 03, 2010 08:56 am)
Nope, I never claimed those things are science.

Then why use it as an "argument" in a discussion about limitations of science?
Is this a Radio Erevan joke? blink.gif
Radu

Posted by: Imperialist February 03, 2010 06:23 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 03, 2010 10:16 am)

Then why use it as an "argument" in a discussion about limitations of science?
Is this a Radio Erevan joke? blink.gif
Radu

I did not bring "astrology", "horoscopes", "fortune telling", "palmistry", "seances", "ghosthunting", "presitidigitation" into the discussion, I did not claim they're science nor did I use them as an argument. You did all of the above.

I didn't bring precognitive dreams into the discussion as science either!

In fact I think I made it very clear, more than once, that the research results on this and other issues have not been accepted by mainstream science. Why did I bring it up? I asked for a scientific explanation from you or an admission that there might be scientifically unexplainable things out there. You reacted by saying its off topic, then saying such things do not exist and finally you'll probably call me crazy like Dragos did. laugh.gif So given your reticence to discuss these things, why are you even taking part in this thread? And why do you keep asking Udar and Andreas for evidence that you know will be incomplete or not mainstream, hence not up to your standards?

By the way, I'm not very interested in these subjects either, I only wanted to tell you that mainstream science doesn't explain everything and that the power of the mind is not necessarily subjected to Newton's laws of mechanics.

cheers all

Posted by: Radub February 03, 2010 06:52 pm
Imperialist,
You brought "prophetic dreams" into the discussion as "proof" that science cannot explain everything. "Prophetic dreams" are the same as "palmistry" or "fortune telling". Sometimes, these things may eventually come true. It is only a statistical probability. But then again statistics are a science, so maybe there is scientific explanation after all for your prophetic (oh, sometimes a word just fits!) episodes.

Did you ever wonder that the "unexplainable" things that you claim are out there have more to do with the limitations of your understanding rather than the limitations of science?

Udar and Andreas are the ones who claim to "know". I asked them to explain these things to everyone, no just me - I am not the only one who still does not know what this is all about. The answers are still yet to come. That is why I keep asking the same question. Udar provided some links that are just not relevant, some not even remotely relevant. Do not underestimate our intelligence.

You are the only one who keeps trying really hard to divert this discussion, I am the one who keeps asking for it to return to the subject.

But please do keep going on. As usual, you are just adding more and more information to hep us develop a very good picture of you. biggrin.gif

Radu

Posted by: dragos February 03, 2010 07:15 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ February 03, 2010 08:23 pm)
You reacted by saying its off topic, then saying such things do not exist and finally you'll probably call me crazy like Dragos did. laugh.gif

No offense Imperialist, but had I experienced such things repeatedly, I would start to doubt my own sanity rolleyes.gif

In a more serious note, since yourself said that the mainstream science failed to offer an explanation for these prophetic dreams, we can assume that they are claims of a mentally ill person, lies or distortions of reality, coincidences etc. So we have a number of reasonable explanations without having to resort to paranormal or psychics (or not unless we like watching "Codul lui Oreste" show laugh.gif )

Posted by: udar February 03, 2010 08:06 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ February 03, 2010 09:51 am)
[QUOTE=Imperialist,February 03, 2010 10:56 am]

However, have you ever doubted your mental sanity? biggrin.gif

Funny, probably the same thing was tought by members of French Academy when Traian Vuia tell them about posibility to fly with a machine heavier then air.

Posted by: udar February 03, 2010 08:17 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 03, 2010 06:52 pm)
Imperialist,
You brought "prophetic dreams" into the discussion as "proof" that science cannot explain everything. "Prophetic dreams" are the same as "palmistry" or "fortune telling". Sometimes, these things may eventually come true. It is only a statistical probability. But then again statistics are a science, so maybe there is scientific explanation after all for your prophetic (oh, sometimes a word just fits!) episodes.

Did you ever wonder that the "unexplainable" things that you claim are out there have more to do with the limitations of your understanding rather than the limitations of science?

Udar and Andreas are the ones who claim to "know". I asked them to explain these things to everyone, no just me - I am not the only one who still does not know what this is all about. The answers are still yet to come. That is why I keep asking the same question. Udar provided some links that are just not relevant, some not even remotely relevant. Do not underestimate our intelligence.

You are the only one who keeps trying really hard to divert this discussion, I am the one who keeps asking for it to return to the subject.

But please do keep going on. As usual, you are just adding more and more information to hep us develop a very good picture of you. biggrin.gif

Radu

Well, lets put them more in order

1- are you agree or not with the posibility that certain EM frequency waves can affect humans, or weather, or other EM devices etc.?

2- you consider the things presented in books like that Andreas said, or i, and even Imperialist own experiances (or the radiestezists used by US troops in Vietnam) as not real, and the authors as telling science fiction stories ?

3- you consider that everything can be explained by today science and this reached the highest possible level to ever be reached ?

4-are you really think that if someone can achieve a breakthrough or advance in this domain will come next day and make all that public?

Posted by: udar February 03, 2010 08:29 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ February 03, 2010 09:53 am)
QUOTE (udar @ February 02, 2010 10:00 pm)

Well, this was from a short search on internet, didnt have time for more but i saw you find something interesting as well (about Narda). As you can see, is possible to measue some EM fields even from distance, and i read is possible to affect that as well (dont find posted on internet, was from books), thus such devices arent advertised for public masses, ofcourse.

I work with Narda devices. I have three of them at work and I use them from time to time. I know more about measuring the EM field and its effects on humans than the average Joe.

The issue was never about detecting and measuring EM fields. Devices for this have been around for many years and they are not weapons unless you decide to repeatedly hit someone on the head with them. It was about influencing the brainwaves with a "weapon" in a desired way, which in this moment is not technically possible. Furthermore there is no scientific knowledge on how to influence the brainwaves in order to get a certain effect from the individual targeted by this supposed weapon.

It was also about reading brainwaves remotely. It is one thing to detect a magnetic field on a certain frequency, it is a totally different thing to be able to tell if it is a brainwave or not and more importantly where is it coming from. We are surrounded by ELF EM fields due to the electrical appliances and the electrical grid we use. Thus the spectrum is not clean and given the low intensity of the brainwaves, they could be easily be hidden below the noise floor and thus impossible to "read". The Slovak experiment was done in anechoic chamber, not in a real environment and there was no information regarding the distance between the person and the loop antenna for the measurement which yielded the peak in Fig. 3. For all we know the guy could have worn the coil on his head.

I know that the EM field sounds as something very mystic too many people, but it actually isn't.

Well, you are pretty convincing in what you say, and obviously seem to know much more then me. I just tell you what i read it, about influencing humans using EM waves, posible not just ELF, but more HF as well, or ultrasounds. The results anyway is the affecting the human EM field (which is ELF one) or brain EM field, and even internal organs.

Another category is weapons who emit a EM field (and not based on a nuclear explosion) able to "burn" all electric/electronic devices, some of them being as small as a beer dose.

Posted by: dragos February 03, 2010 08:30 pm
QUOTE (udar @ February 03, 2010 10:06 pm)
[QUOTE=dragos,February 03, 2010 09:51 am] [QUOTE=Imperialist,February 03, 2010 10:56 am]

However, have you ever doubted your mental sanity? biggrin.gif [/QUOTE]
Funny, probably the same thing was tought by members of French Academy when Traian Vuia tell them about posibility to fly with a machine heavier then air.

What's your point? blink.gif

I fail to see any parallelism here.

Posted by: udar February 03, 2010 08:36 pm
[QUOTE=dragos,February 03, 2010 08:30 pm] [QUOTE=udar,February 03, 2010 10:06 pm] [QUOTE=dragos,February 03, 2010 09:51 am] [QUOTE=Imperialist,February 03, 2010 10:56 am]

However, have you ever doubted your mental sanity? biggrin.gif [/QUOTE]
Funny, probably the same thing was tought by members of French Academy when Traian Vuia tell them about posibility to fly with a machine heavier then air. [/QUOTE]
What's your point? blink.gif

I fail to see any parallelism here. [/QUOTE]
The point is that even most "iluminated" minds can go wrong sometimes, and disbelieve what they think is crazy ideas or facts, considering them imposible. But, sometimes those things are real and posible, despite the fact that dont have a quick scientific explanation, at the level of knowledge then or now.

Posted by: Radub February 03, 2010 09:18 pm
QUOTE (udar @ February 03, 2010 08:17 pm)

Well, lets put them more in order

1- are you agree or not with the posibility that certain EM frequency waves can affect humans, or weather, or other EM devices etc.?

2- you consider the things presented in books like that Andreas said, or i, and even Imperialist own experiances (or the radiestezists used by US troops in Vietnam) as not real, and the authors as telling science fiction stories ?

3- you consider that everything can be explained by today science and this reached the highest possible level to ever be reached ?

4-are you really think that if someone can achieve a breakthrough or advance in this domain will come next day and make all that public?

Udar,
I have been telling you for the last few days: Please show me what you are talking about and I will decide then whether I believe or not.
I will answer your questions one by one:

1 What are "certain EM frequency waves can affect humans, or weather, or other EM devices etc."? Please explain what they are and how they work.

2. I have no access to "books like that Andreas said, or i, and even Imperialist own experiances (or the radiestezists used by US troops in Vietnam)". I cannot tell you whether they are "real, and the authors as telling science fiction stories". Please give me a summary of the main points of these books and experioences and then I will be able to nake up my mind. Just because some dude wrote a book, it does not make it true. Have you heard of the Wizard of Oz (it is a book wink.gif )? Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

3- "You consider that everything can be explained by today science and this reached the highest possible level to ever be reached ?" Scientists promised us flying cars and holidays on the moon by 2000. Did not happen yet. It looks like "future science" is still working on the same principles as "today science". Can we stick with what we know? Can you please explain to us in the language of "today" how these things are supposed to work? Talking about stuff that may happen in the future is fiction, no matter how you look at it.

4-"are you really think that if someone can achieve a breakthrough or advance in this domain will come next day and make all that public?" Absolutely! If I had a device that could control brains I would patent it and sell it to every person suffering from Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, paraplegics, some sort of interface that will make computer mice and keyboards obsolete, entertainment that can be sent directly to the brain. Imagine the possibilities, much more than exalted cretins fear. laugh.gif

Now, can we stop making this about "my inability to understand what you never explained" and make it more about some intelligent evidence that can show us that "you understand what you are not really trying to explain"? rolleyes.gif

Please do not underestimate my intelligence and the intelligence of other people who read this. Believe it or not, the "lack of understanding" of the issue of "mind control" is not a sign of stupidity. wink.gif

Radu

PS I studied psychology for four years in university.

Posted by: Imperialist February 03, 2010 10:35 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ February 03, 2010 07:15 pm)
No offense Imperialist, but had I experienced such things repeatedly, I would start to doubt my own sanity  rolleyes.gif


My mental health is fine. And I really don't think having 2 dreams, telling them to others who then join you in amazement several days later when the dreams "come true" would be a sign of insanity.

QUOTE
Imperialist,
You brought "prophetic dreams" into the discussion as "proof" that science cannot explain everything. "Prophetic dreams" are the same as "palmistry" or "fortune telling". Sometimes, these things may eventually come true.


No, they are not anywhere near palmistry and fortune telling. There is no human factor in them (the fortune teller), there is a higher level of details and vividness etc.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I would probably have been just as skeptical as you are if I wouldn't have experienced them. The only thing that bothers me is some of the way in which you approach a casual discussion. Most of your messages have personal jabs in them. And that's unnecessary. Not only do they make the discussion longer and more convoluted in an off-topic manner but if your interlocutors are not calm enough the whole thing could turn into a huge food fight.

QUOTE
You are the only one who keeps trying really hard to divert this discussion, I am the one who keeps asking for it to return to the subject.

But please do keep going on. As usual, you are just adding more and more information to hep us develop a very good picture of you.


I have no interest in diverting this discussion. I stepped in to make a small point (to rephrase, science is a work in progress, not a completed bubble that encompasses everything there is, there might be some things outside the laws we now know) but then got dragged in because sometimes you have the habit of putting words in other users' mouths. And because I had to defend myself from some of your personal jabs.

Wow, you are developing a very good picture of me. Cool. It goes both ways.

Posted by: ANDREAS February 03, 2010 11:37 pm
QUOTE
PS I studied psychology for four years in university.

Radu, what a shame! I actually prepared a scientific explanation that you expected, but now I realized that for you is just a entertainment, to be the GICA-CONTRA and to annihilate the efforts of others to prove something that is not hard to contradict in the current context... So, with no other members who show interest and openness to answers I will surely not answer you. Although long as I have recommended you, to read serious books (written by scientists and researchers) and you continue to watch and talk about OTV, dozen books found on the Internet and SF stories, do not think we have a serious dialogue. Do not try, you have fully cleared your intentions! You not gonna do your games with me! Have fun!
Imperialist, you have my respect! Because you had the courage to admit a personal experience (so called prophetic dreams) that I also know from personal experience, who many people consider it a freak, a bizarre, since they have not lived it! You probably know that many people experience such things but that rarely confess... I assure you of this!

Posted by: contras February 03, 2010 11:46 pm
Guys, I'll tell you again, I think this forum is about army and military, not about things and phenomenous you think are on the edge of science. When such things were ready to be used by military science, all of us we'll ready to dicuss them in one tpoic of this forum. Until there...

Posted by: Victor February 04, 2010 09:54 am
I think the discussion is getting too personal. Please stick to the ideas and avoid attacking man behind it.

Posted by: Radub February 04, 2010 09:54 am
QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 03, 2010 11:37 pm)
I actually prepared a scientific explanation that you expected, but now I realized that for you is just a entertainment, to be the GICA-CONTRA and to annihilate the efforts of others to prove something that is not hard to contradict in the current context...

Oh, how convenient Andreas! How convenient!

This is the typical kind of response from the people who believe in this kind of mumbo-jumbo. Why can you not just give a clear and concise answer?

The truth is that you and people of your kind (the "believers") prefer to preserve this area of mystique and vagueness. How come that "clarity" is not among your arsenal of "devices" used to "convince" people? You also like the create this kind of tension between the "believers" and "non-believers". You want me to believe you? Fine! Give me something to believe in! Sorry, but I will not just take your word for it. I am afraid I need some clarification, some kind of explanation or proof. Help me believe you!

I am not playing any "games". I asked one simple question, the same question every time, but the answer was not provided. Why am I the one at fault here? I will not "believe and not question" this. Your version of the "Spanish Inquisition" will not work on me.

How about you STOP personalising this issue, STOP vilifying the people who simply ask for clarifications, and just PROVIDE the answer! Then, after the proof is provided, you can start making accusations and calling people names such as ignorant.

I repeat the same question:How do these psychotronic devices work? Put up or shut up!

Radu

Posted by: udar February 04, 2010 09:17 pm
http://books.google.ro/books?id=D-1yt3PhqhwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=PSI+Spies:+The+True+Story+of+America%27s+Psychic+Warfare+Program++De+Jim+Marrs&source=bl&ots=SwonlbMt6p&sig=n0G8Z9bShW-V3eVY9tsiDEFHXbs&hl=ro&ei=Q6NmS7_WOpiImgP-15wb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_control#Ionospheric_experiments

http://www.raven1.net/jwalltil.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_weapon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_%28weapon%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weaponry

This are several readings, i dont have the book in german, mentioned by Andreas, nor the books of general Emil Strainu, which i think are much more complete

Posted by: udar February 04, 2010 09:26 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 03, 2010 09:18 pm)
QUOTE (udar @ February 03, 2010 08:17 pm)

Well, lets put them more in order

1- are you agree or not with the posibility that certain EM frequency waves can affect humans, or weather, or other EM devices etc.?

2- you consider the things presented in books like that Andreas said, or i, and even Imperialist own experiances (or the radiestezists used by US troops in Vietnam) as not real, and the authors as telling science fiction stories ?

3- you consider that everything can be explained by today science and this reached the highest possible level to ever be reached ?

4-are you really think that if someone can achieve a breakthrough or advance in this domain will come next day and make all that public?

Udar,
I have been telling you for the last few days: Please show me what you are talking about and I will decide then whether I believe or not.
I will answer your questions one by one:

1 What are "certain EM frequency waves can affect humans, or weather, or other EM devices etc."? Please explain what they are and how they work.

2. I have no access to "books like that Andreas said, or i, and even Imperialist own experiances (or the radiestezists used by US troops in Vietnam)". I cannot tell you whether they are "real, and the authors as telling science fiction stories". Please give me a summary of the main points of these books and experioences and then I will be able to nake up my mind. Just because some dude wrote a book, it does not make it true. Have you heard of the Wizard of Oz (it is a book wink.gif )? Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

3- "You consider that everything can be explained by today science and this reached the highest possible level to ever be reached ?" Scientists promised us flying cars and holidays on the moon by 2000. Did not happen yet. It looks like "future science" is still working on the same principles as "today science". Can we stick with what we know? Can you please explain to us in the language of "today" how these things are supposed to work? Talking about stuff that may happen in the future is fiction, no matter how you look at it.

4-"are you really think that if someone can achieve a breakthrough or advance in this domain will come next day and make all that public?" Absolutely! If I had a device that could control brains I would patent it and sell it to every person suffering from Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, paraplegics, some sort of interface that will make computer mice and keyboards obsolete, entertainment that can be sent directly to the brain. Imagine the possibilities, much more than exalted cretins fear. laugh.gif

Now, can we stop making this about "my inability to understand what you never explained" and make it more about some intelligent evidence that can show us that "you understand what you are not really trying to explain"? rolleyes.gif

Please do not underestimate my intelligence and the intelligence of other people who read this. Believe it or not, the "lack of understanding" of the issue of "mind control" is not a sign of stupidity. wink.gif

Radu

PS I studied psychology for four years in university.

I am glad that you at least agree somewhat that science isnt infallibly, and can go wrong. I almost believed you really are a dogmatic.

But about point 4 you make me really laugh laugh.gif . Are you serious? I start to believe you are a kind of "gica-contra". Such devices are always (or almost) build by or for military, who use them for achieve the supremacy, being a kind of secret "wonderweapon". Imagine Hitler giving to the world the projects of V2/A4 rockets (i think they maked the plans for up to A8 already, the base for american Saturn later) for humanity to send a man on space.

Anyway, i am glad to know you think to helping others, is very nice from you

Posted by: Radub February 05, 2010 09:08 am
Udar,
You win this excellent discussion. biggrin.gif
Radu

Posted by: udar February 05, 2010 12:16 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ February 05, 2010 09:08 am)
Udar,
You win this excellent discussion. biggrin.gif
Radu

Yeah, sure, whatever you say Radu

Posted by: Victor August 01, 2012 10:53 am
The topic was resurrected by the banned spammer. Unfortunately we (the administrators) forgot to delete the spam post and send this topic back down the list.

A number of posts was deleted.

Andreas, udar if you have a problem with a post you click the report this post to a moderator button and wait. You do not start your own vigilante actions and you do not lecture other forum members. Post only if you have something worth adding to the topic at hand. udar you have already been suspended for a week for the same thing and you are walking on thin ice.

Similarly, Radub, if you have something interesting to add to the topic, please do. If not, there's no use in beating a dead horse, especially when the possibility to restart an old flame is there.

Thank you.

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