Revista de istorie militara, 5/1996, pp 26-32
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Romanian post war resistance movements |
| Posted by: dragos May 01, 2004 09:06 pm |
| Resistance National Movement (1944-1946), Alesandru Dutu, Florica Dobre
Revista de istorie militara, 5/1996, pp 26-32
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| Posted by: mabadesc May 01, 2004 10:20 pm |
| Thanks for posting this info, Dragos! I've always wanted to learn more about post-war anti-communist partisan guerillas or organizations. Unfortunately, there aren't many books which address this issue. |
| Posted by: Dr_V May 02, 2004 07:19 am |
| Thanks Dragos!
Hey, are the foreign members interested by this subject? We discussed a few related topics on this forum. If you are, gentlemen, just post a few replys to let me know: I'll translate the posted Romanian documents right here. |
| Posted by: Brotherhoodofthecross May 03, 2004 10:38 am |
| Thanks for the info. Indeed very interesting. It looks that a lot of those who participated to thse movements had something to do with the Legionaries or at least shared some of their philosophy. It is understandable since it takes a bit of fanatism to commit to a movement with such n little chances of success. |
| Posted by: Victor May 03, 2004 01:34 pm |
| Resistance centers:
1. Bukovina form 29 March 1944 to 1958 2. Sibiu from October 1944 to 1954 3. Maramures from 5 March 1945 to 1958 4. Banat from May 1947 to 1962 5. Arad from June 1947 to November 1958 6. Dobruja from July 1947 to 1956 7. Apuseni Mountains from August 1947 to 1958 8. Bacau from September 1947 to February 1960— 9. Vrancea from June 1948 to 1958 10. Brasov from June 1949 to 1950 11. Bihor from June 1947 to 1954 (also Apuseni Mountains region) 12. Muscel from February 1948 to February 1950 13. Fagaras Mountains from May 1948 to May 1956 14. Neamt from June 1948 to May 1956 15. Hunedoara from July 1948 to June 1949 16. Oltenia from September 1948 to May 1952 17. Bistrita-Nasaud from 1948 to 1950 18. Mures from March 1949 to 1951 19. Cluj from May 1949 to February 1958 20. Bucharest from 1945 to 1957 There were several kinds of "partisans" during the years. The first and most important were probably the groups under the leadership of former officers, like col. Uta, lt. col. Arsenescu, maj. Dabija, lt. Toma Arnautoiu, lt. Teodor Margineanu and others. These groups were the most active and were driven by the hope of the "arrival of the Americans". They attacked and even killed local communists, destroyed PMR centers, sabotaged etc. Then there were the people who chose to flee to the mountains to escape the Communist regime. They did not join with the former military groups (did not generally believe or even care if the Americans would come) and were more "peaceful". But did fight when they were cornered and preferred to live a hard life in the mountains then to live under Communism. The last category was the organizations, which acted as weapons depots and hideouts for people the Communist authorities pursued. They also planned to start sabotage actions in case of a war between the SU and NATO. The main problem of the Romanian resistance was the lack of a unified leadership. The Miscarea Nationala de Rezistenta of gen. Aurel Aldea was unfortunately quickly subdued by the authorities. If it would have succeeded in surviving, it could have been a serious opponent for the DSS, which often lacked the men and professionalism to counter it early in the 50s. |
| Posted by: 88mm May 07, 2004 07:36 am | ||
These people are actualy peasents wich were economicly cornered by the comunists. Theire fight doesn't have ideological status. Before imposing their agricultural reform (you know CAP-urile) the comunists where colecting a preset amount of agricultural products. These amounts were set due to the amount of land a family had and were the same for those who had land in mountain or hill regions and those who had land in a plain region. That's why this partisans were mainly from regions with a lower agricultural productivity, becouse theire incapacity to fullfil these requests. And one more thing, the families who convert themselves to the Greek Catolic church for more privilieges during the Austro - Hungarian ocupation were owners of biger land properties. This led the autorities to make the Greek Catolic church an outlaw. Because the soldiers who fight these partisans were from peasent families to, led to the loss of people suport for this resistance. |
| Posted by: Victor May 07, 2004 09:28 am |
| They weren't only peaents trying to escape colectivization, but also other categories of Romanians hunted by the regime, like the legionaires of the Arnota Mountains Group. |
| Posted by: Brotherhoodofthecross May 07, 2004 10:03 am | ||
Legionaires had many sins is true, but at least they realised the danger represented by the Red Cancer and fought desperately against it. |
| Posted by: Carol I May 10, 2004 09:29 pm |
| A series of articles on the post-war resistance that has been published today in http://www.jurnalul.ro/
http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4847 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4859 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4858 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4877 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4885 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4882 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4878 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4886 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4884 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4883 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4880 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4881 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4879 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4857 http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4848 |
| Posted by: Carol I May 10, 2004 09:37 pm |
| I forgot to mention that the articles are only in Romanian and unfortunately I do not have the time to translate them into English. If any of the foreign members of the forum are interested, I think they will get help with the translation. Dr_V, for example, has already stated his http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11692#11692 in this respect. |
| Posted by: Victor May 15, 2004 12:53 pm |
| The Arnota Group
It was organized at the end of 1948 by Ion Opritoiu, both had participated in the rebellion in January 1941 and had been imprisoned during the Antonescu regime. The established the camp in the Arnota Mountains (west of the Olt Valley) close to the Arnota and Bistrita monasteries. The men started arriving there from 26 February 1949. These were people trying to escape the system and did not have in mind any actions against the regime. The group was comprised at its maximum by 16 men. These were supported by a network of sympathizers led by Ghita Pele, the third leader, but who stayed in Bucharest. They adopted mainly a defensive attitude. On 23 April 1949, the Securitate, alarmed by their presence in the area, established two observation posts near the camp. One of the posts captured Constantin Ciorgan, who was bringing supplies to the group and later supplied information under interrogation. The other post, however, became prisoner, after the group engaged it. The two Securitate men were tried by a "tribunal" under the leadership of Opritoiu. The decision was to set them free in exchange for their belongings. On 26 April, when the prisoners were about to be released, the group was surprised by a company of the 4th Securitate Battalion and 25 other Securitate agents. Ţhey opened fire and wounded 2 soldiers. 7 of them were killed, 5 were arrested and other 4, including Opritoiu, escaped. Also 6 nouns were arrested for aiding the partisans. Other 48 people were later arrested for supplying them. Opritoiu and Pele were apprehended by September 1949. They were killed apparently in 1950, during transport. |
| Posted by: 88mm May 21, 2004 09:00 am |
| http://pages.prodigy.net/nnita/rezisten.htm That's the willage of my grandparents. Some names are relatives of mine, not close tghou. Note that the second names are the willage nicknames, it's also the name that tell's you who you are related with. My granmothers father escaped because he was to new in the organization and he didn't apear on any list. |
| Posted by: mateias December 11, 2007 11:14 am |
| For Victor, I think you made a mistake as regards resistance in Muscel county. The group led by Arnautoiu brothers lasted till 1958 when captured by betrayal. Toma Arnautoiu's daughter, Ioana Raluca Voicu-Arnautoiu, wrote a huge book on this subject (Securitate called "gangs of thugs" all the resistance groups). |
| Posted by: Victor December 11, 2007 06:21 pm |
| Correct it is until February 1960, not 1950 |
| Posted by: Jeff_S December 19, 2007 07:35 pm | ||||||||
I'm surprised I didn't notice this thread before. An interesting topic in my opinion. I find the length of time some of these movements lasted as amazing. Victor described some of the motives of anti-communist resistance. Can anyone expand on this?
As an American I can say that was totally hopeless, although I know there was some encouragement given to this sort of resistance in Eastern Europe... (shamefully, IMHO, as we had no intention of attacking into Eastern Europe to support them). Can anyone speak to how these partisans decided this was the best course of action? Did they underestimate the strength or ruthlessness of the Soviets and their local supporters? Did they overestimate their own strength? Did they really expect the Americans to drive up and rescue them? Or were they so hopeless that they just felt they had nothing to lose, and would rather die honorably fighting for a lost cause?
I know some parts of Romania are very rugged terrain and isolated. But were there parts where the government (communist or otherwise) truly doesn't reach? It's not that big a country, and the Soviet's client states in Eastern Europe don't have a reputation for "live and let live" toleration of semi-independent communities inside their own borders. How did they survive? Farming? (that requires staying in one place at least for one growing season) Parasites off of settled communities? (stealing, gifts from sympathizers) That means they must be in contact, and exposes them and their sympathizers to retaliation. Hunting and gathering? Could people really just "be left alone" provided they stayed on the margins of society and didn't pose a political challenge?
Weren't these awfully vulnerable to infiltration, or being "rolled up" following the arrest of 1-2 members? Without any ability to communicate other than face to face, and not knowing who you could trust, how could such an organization even get established? |
| Posted by: cnflyboy2000 December 20, 2007 03:59 pm | ||
Same here. I've read elsewhere of these Romanian groups though, and wonder if they were not unparalled anywhere in the former so-called "eastern bloc". Aside from Hungary, 1956, and of course, Poland in the 80's (Solidarity), I'm unfamiliar with any (ongoing) resistance movements, armed or otherwise. I heard that there is still standing in Pitesti a particularly notorious securitate prison building where many resisters were taken when captured and tortured, killed. |
| Posted by: Jeff_S December 21, 2007 09:16 pm |
| Yes, that's why I asked the question. What level of "resistance" is necessary to qualify? One guy with some anti-communist literature buried in his woodshed may be brave and principled, but he's not going to overthrow a government. Something on the scale of Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia is a totally different matter. I consider Solidarity to be somewhat different -- not clandestine, but a direct political challenge to the regime. And I would say this was only successful in the end because the Soviets were unwilling to intervene to prop up their client state. |
| Posted by: Victor December 22, 2007 08:37 am |
| Motivations varied considerably, as did the composition of the groups. Some were former professional soldiers that had a deep hate of Communism, some were peasants that would not give up their land to the state's collective farms, some were simply trying to hide from the Securitate in the wilderness. The "arrival of the Americans" myth may seem ironic today, but in the late '40s it was real. We must take into consideration the fact that almost none of pre-war political figures realized after 23 August 1944 that Romania was already given to Stalin and thought that the Western Powers will aid them. How can we judge the common people for continuing to hope in a miracle ? It just needed someone to start a rumour. The groups weren't too big and they usually had supporters in the villages at the foot of the mountains. This is how most of them survived, but it was also the key to their capture. In its early years, the Securitate was probably overwhelmed by the huge numbers it had to arrest, torture, interrogate, guard, kill and pursue. The partisans were not a powerful threat to the Communist regime, so likely they weren't considered a high priority case. Plus a few men can be hard to track in the wilderness. |
| Posted by: mateias December 22, 2007 11:41 am |
| Maybe the total number of highly active people engaged in guerilla-type fighting was less than 10,000. However, one must reconsider their courage knowing that they had to act in a country invaded by 1,000,000 Russian soldiers and NKVD advisers in each county and institution until 1958 when practically all these groups had been crushed down (and Russians accepted to go). The communist authorities had to set up Securitate REGULAR troops in 1949 and together with Militia troops they tracked the resistance fighters, even by using airplanes to control their movements. Sometimes thousands of regular troops had to be deployed to capture just a few fighters. The penal code had to be modified several times, punishing harshly freedom fighters and their supporters (to intimidate them) and encouraging people to betray - for ransom (they were considered criminals and everywhere in the world, even in the USA authorities pays hefty ransoms for tracking down criminals !)or "voluntarily" - even their close relatives and friends. In fact, there were two peaks of anticommunist armed resistance activities - one by late '40s-early '50s (myth of American's arrival) and in the aftermath of the Hungarian revolution in 1956. Denis Deletant, an English historian, wrote several books in English on this matter and there are several museums dedicated to the political prisoners and freedom fighters - most of them are former prisons (Sighet, Pitesti, Fagaras). |
| Posted by: contras January 01, 2010 01:51 pm |
| This freedom fighters were suported by local inhabitants, who gave them supllies, informnations and, many times, safe heaven. After the fall of one group, suporters were locked up by hundreds, many times thousands. Without local suport, they cannot survive. An example about the life of partizans can find in books wrote by survivals. Ion Gavrila Ogoranu, Brazii se frang, dar nu se indoiesc (7 volumes). First 2 volumes were about his life between 1948-1989, his fight in Fagaras Mountains (1948-1956), his escape and his life as an outlaw (1956-1976), arresting and prison (1976), liberation (1976) and fall of communism (1989). Intersting thing, his life was saved by Kissinger, who asked Ceausescu about Ogoranu in 1974, before Nixon's visit, and before Ogoranu was arrested. He lived between 1956 and 1976 at Galtiu, near Alba Iulia, in secret, in Ana Sabadus's house, widow of an dead comrade, killed at Gherla prison. Later he married her. The third volume is about the support groups, peasants, intelectuals who supported his group of fighters. Vol 4 is about documents in Securitate's archives about his group and actions to anihilate them (over 100 Securitate actions in 8 years). Vol 5 is about his youth, life before 1948, his activity in Fratia de Cruce (Young Legionars). Vol 7 is about armed groups in Apuseni Mountains, many of them (the legionars) he knows before the events. About "coming of americans" myth, it wasn't so foolish. They expected a future confrontation between Western powers and Soviets, the moment when Cold War will become Hot. Were many tensions at some moments (Berlin crisis in 1948, Koreean War (1950-1953). This Romanian armed groups, intended to hide themselves and begin to act at the right moment. They intended to act like real partisans in time of war. Soviets feared them for the same reason, they had a guerilla fight in ww2 against Germans, and know how efective could be such a movement. |
| Posted by: contras January 03, 2010 09:13 pm |
| About this period, and this fight, there were not much related stories. In "Memorial museum of anticomunist resistance" in Sighetu Marmatiei, former prison were died many of Romanian patriots, are some parts dedicated to partisan fighters. If you have sometimes occasion to go there, don't missed it. It's just in centre of the city. I assure you will impressed. There are few memories about this armed resistance movement against communism, because are are a very few survivors. One of them is the books of Ion Gavrila Ogoranu, Brazii se frang, dar nu se indoiesc. Other is the diary of Vasile Motrescu, a partisan from Bukovina, recovered by Securitate's archives. It apears after 90's, under title Vasile Motrescu, The diary of a partisan. It is interesting, Vasile Motrescu saved Ogoranu's life and his fellow comarades in 1951, but he was captured and executed in 1957, I think. His diary is recounted personally, day by day, and noted at this time. It coveres about 3 years of hidden and fighting against Securitate's troops. One of his comarade, Gavril Vatamaniuc, lived today, but I don't had his memories. All I know is one fight, when Securitate's troops surrounded them, and they make their way outside the encirclement. Motrescu killed 2 members of Securitate and one haunting dog, and Vatamaniuc killed one soldier. Vatamaniuc lived, I think, in Suceava. If there is somebody on this forum who lives somewhere near Suceava, please go an take him a video interwiew. It is important, maybe would be the last time we can hear about him, because is very old. Thank you very much, Contras |
| Posted by: contras February 03, 2010 11:00 pm |
| Maybe the first romanian movie about partisan fightings in Romania after ww2: http://www.monitorfg.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1454:ion-gavril-ogoranu-personaj-de-film&catid=43:tiri-locale&Itemid=29 |
| Posted by: ANDREAS February 04, 2010 12:44 am |
| Hallo everybody, a brief intervention to topic, from the stories of my grandfather, living in Babana, in Arges. He said that most of the resistance fighters he knew or heard about were ex- Legionaries, former royal army soldiers and officers, and also priests and rich peasants. He said that immediately after the war the popular support was significant and many peasants helped them, but after 1951-52 the fear of the Securitate and the Party led many to refuse to assist and supply them. The communist propaganda tell them in the context of organized assemblies in the villages that the fighters were actually bandits and robbers, and everybody who help them, will share their fate. The Militie personnel was the most feared since the fell into the hands of Securitate meant virtually the end of the life. The Militie workers were the one who warned the resistance fighters supporters to stop helping them ... or else ... they gave them to the Securitate... He said that many peasants tried to justify their fear by spreading the same rumours as the communists -as the fighters were bandits and robbers-... Just some memories... I also appreciate very much the topic... keep doing the good job! |
| Posted by: cnflyboy2000 February 06, 2010 06:11 pm | ||
http://www.memorialsighet.ro/index.php?lang=en |
| Posted by: contras February 06, 2010 08:52 pm |
| Thank you, cnflyboy2000, for the link. It is very useful for those who are interested in that part of our history. But I believe it must be visited. There are many apreciations from many personalities, that this memorial at Sighet is, after that one of Auswitz, the most important remember museum of Europe. If you had sometimes the possibility to visit Maramures area, don't miss this museum. |
| Posted by: contras February 17, 2010 10:09 am |
| http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-cultura-6921322-video-institutul-elie-wiesel-cerut-directorului-festivalului-berlin-interzicerea-portretul-luptatorului-tinerete-motiv-documentar-fascist-constantin-popescu-pentru-hotnews-cand-vrei-discuti-despre-fil.htm |
| Posted by: contras July 07, 2010 07:12 pm |
| About Susman group in Rachitele, some news here: http://www.adevarul.ro/locale/cluj-napoca/Luptatorul_anticomunist_Teodor_Susman-deshumat_in_comuna_lui_Boc_0_283771792.html |
| Posted by: Hawk January 16, 2011 06:57 pm |
| Is any literature available in English? I am form Lithuania, the guerrilla war is my study subject. thanx, Juozapas |
| Posted by: contras January 21, 2011 06:57 pm |
| Portrait of a fighter as a young man, full movie, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YktLoiUFDFM |
| Posted by: mg92aa March 20, 2011 09:58 pm |
| The work you are doing here is vital. We, soldiers in the West, knew that some groups fought on after the Soviets over ran their countries. Some of us had a sickening feeling that groups may have been abandoned; and that some had been encouraged and then abandoned. But we could not have known just how large the movements were! Please, tell us more. We owe you much more than we can pay, at least we can now listen. I apologise to the nameless that we did not come to your aid. If only .... |
| Posted by: Valium April 15, 2011 08:29 am | ||
Babana is not quite close to the areea they acted(Domnesti-Nucsoara-Albesti...). My grands are from there. The popularity of the groups decreased gradually, whilst people realised there are no hopes for victory and change of regime, the securitate threat, and some not such orthodox deeds of the partisans(desperation for lack of food, and securitate fear, made them to act, sometimes, like robbers, and punishers over ones they suspected as traitors. There were, is and will be not angels army, nowhere) |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 17, 2011 09:34 am |
| It was probably so as you say, Valium, and this could also explain the facts... But still, even if I put my finger on the wound, the fear, hand in hand with cowardice, made many act like this and did not support the partisans! I admit that I, in their situation, I might have acted the same ... Respect for those who have risen us, through their courage and sacrifice -the partisans! |
| Posted by: Dénes April 17, 2011 11:47 am | ||
Personally, I would avoid the usage of the word Partisan, as - in my mind - this word is linked to Communism. Better say resistance, freedom fighters, etc. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Valium April 17, 2011 05:10 pm | ||
Of course, you're right! I didn't say they were not real heroes, I said they were not perfect. We couldn't blame, either, the usual people, who, in a way or other, suffered because of the partisans, and wished this suffering to stop. |
| Posted by: contras April 19, 2011 06:53 pm | ||
Of course, like in all the movements that implies guerrilas and gouvernamental troops (Securitate in this case), there were many civilians who blame the partisans for the reprisals of Securitate. Their logic was if there weren't the partisans, the reprisals were not existed. A fake logic, the reprisals and the Securitate's actions were everywhere, even partisans existed or no in the region. Because the goal of the Cominists was to crush any kind of resistance, freedom fighters or the ones who didn't obey the new rule. Any kind of resistance was quikly crushed. If you don't pay your "cote" (taxes in products for peasants) that were very high ones, you became a "saboteur" and you ended in prison. |
| Posted by: 21 inf April 20, 2011 04:50 am |
| I personally met many years ago a former Militia mayor, who was not a freedom fighter, but a relevant example of comunist mind control upon romanian citisens. He told me that in early 1950's, in one day he met an oficial delegation traveling in I dont know what kind of western made car. He was looking with admiration to the car and asked himself loud "when the russian cars that we use now will be so well built as this car". In very short time he was fired from Militie and put to jail for some years. He was told the reason: "The Great Soviet Union is ALREADY building cars very well"! |
| Posted by: contras June 21, 2013 08:19 pm |
| About CIA aid in Romanian armed resistance against comunism, and the treason: http://www.cristiannegrea.ro/istoria-necunoscuta/istoria-furata/2013/06/ogoranu-si-cia/ |
| Posted by: Radub June 22, 2013 03:56 pm |
| The article said: "Avionul ales era de tip KC-135 (medelul militar al lui Boeing 707) si a decolat din Italia, de la Aviano, langa Roma. Acest model de avion greu de transport a fost ales pentru faptul ca avea un plafon maxim (altitudinea maxima atinsa) de 16.000 metri, in timp ce un MIG-15 se putea ridica numai pana la vreo 15.000 de metri." There is no way, no how, no chance that this could be true. EC 135 was a tanker for in-flight refuelling. It had absolutely no facility to drop payload (no ramp, no cargo compartment) it was never used for air-drops. It was too valuable to risk on such low-value missions. Aviano is nowhere near Rome. Maybe the intention was to say C-130, but that plane could not go to 16.000 metres, so... In any case, a lot of this article just does not make sense. Why would CIA bother to risk valuable personnel and harware to drop groceries (medicine, clothes and food) and weapons in the mountains? To achieve what? How many weapons would be needed to successfully defeat the army and the Securitate. And then what? Sounds like the kind of pulp espionage fiction that was very popular in Communist Romania. In those books, the "partisans in the mountains" were always thwarted and the "foreign agents" were just ineffective despite all their fancy gear. Radu |
| Posted by: contras June 23, 2013 06:57 pm | ||
Radu, you must understand that it was war, the Cold War. And any effort to weak the enemy was perfect justifiable, like in France during ww2 or other countries. |
| Posted by: Radub June 23, 2013 08:41 pm |
| Yes, I understand. I see no similarity with the French resistance. Radu |
| Posted by: Radub June 24, 2013 01:29 pm | ||
Yesterday I wrote from my mobile phone, but here is the full reply: I understand that in a war, underground movements with external support can be a destabilising force. So, by that standard THE ONLY such organisation that matches this description are the "partisans" of the "illegal Communist Party". The "resistance in the mountains" bears abslutely NO similarity to the French Resistance. The French Resistance helped downed airmen return to the UK, they provided information about German movements in France and even weather reports to aid the air forces. The "resistance in the mountains" did nothing like that. The French Resistance paved the way for the D-Day invasion. No such thing happened in the case of the "resistrance in the mountains". The resistance in the mountains are just a symbol of fighting for an ideal. As such, they are more alike the "occupy" movement. But the return to the story linked above, in as far as I can see, nothing happened and the main protagonist died of old age in his own bed after the fall of communism, having done nothing measurable against the regime. So, the article is actually a non-description of a non-event. And it is full of errors. Cui prodest? Radu |
| Posted by: MMM June 24, 2013 03:03 pm | ||
That might have been true for the pre-23 august period, but after 30.12.1947 it is ludicrous... Plus, we're talking another war, a "cold" one... Re: similarities: here's one: they were both waiting the Americans to free them. Here's another one: both movements did NOT acknowledge the present "occupation" regime. We may go on... Re: article: indeed, it is so full of mistakes it might be a Radio Erevan joke, but such things have happened. |
| Posted by: Radub June 24, 2013 06:11 pm | ||
Well, I was not talking about other stories, I was talking about this particular story in the link. You misunderstood what I said about the Romanian communists! Read it again. If you read slowly rather than just react before reading, you will soon discover that by using the words "illegal Communist party" I was referring to the communist party that was ... illegal (in ilegalitate). I was referring strictly to wartime. The "illegalists" were the only organisation in Romania who were supplied/supported by a foreign power (in this case Russia), they provided this foreign power with various forms of assistance and eventually joined this foreign power in successfully overthrowing the existing government. For these reasons they were just like the French Resistance. And for precisely THESE reasons, the "resistance in the mountains" was nothing like the French Resistance. This is neither admiration for the "illegalists" nor disdain for the "resistance in the mountains". It is just objective assessment of facts. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM June 24, 2013 07:51 pm | ||
...and that's why I didn't react at first... another quarrel with you is not on my "to-do-list" right now. I wanted to react, but I thought "it's not worth it"; yet when I see the mis-matchings (you are so fond of, btw) regarding an article which had more than enough mistakes on its own... well, THEN I reacted. OK, why bringing into discussion the war-time "illegalists"? What's the relevance of this towards the topic? RE: "the only organisation in Romania"... does the name Ivor Porter tell anything to you? Some guys in the PNŢ back then were quite active in collaborating with the SOE, weren't they? Your turn...  |
| Posted by: Radub June 24, 2013 08:37 pm |
| You know what? I do not want a quarrel with you either. I never do. Please try to be less emotional abot this. It is evident that you are not reading the whole of what I am saying. Please leave this for a while, return in a couple of days and read again what I wrote and maybe it will make sense. My response was to Contras's statement that "rezistenta din munti" was like the "French resistance". My point is that these two have nothing in common and they are not alike, not in amount of support, not in scope, not in actions, not in outcome. They cannot be more different. The only "similarity" is the word "resistance" and in that sense it can also be similar to any other secretive organisation that argues with authority such as the Wikileaks, hackers, mafia or "Haiducii lui Sapte Cai". In my opinion, "rezistenta din munti" was heroic enough without any need to resort to embellishments or dilluting comparisons with someone else. Why can they not just be unique? Radu [edited by admin] |
| Posted by: contras June 25, 2013 08:16 pm | ||
You misunderstand me. I said, like in ww2, in Cold War the same, you must weaken the enemy and help the ones who fight against him. That is all. |
| Posted by: MMM July 05, 2013 01:49 pm | ||||||||||||
...and so I did! Here's the problem, now: 1. Why bring into discussion the "wartime" communists? (presuming that by "wartime" one should understand only the pre-23.08.1944 period, although one knows that WW2 ended slightly later... So WHERE FROM THE ILLEGAL COMMUNISTS? 2.
I think I already made my point saying
, to which, again, you did NOT reply. 3.
Well, I think I have just underlined a couple of similarities, although in general terms I tend to disagree also with Contras' idea... 4.
That doesn't necesarily mean a similarity between the French Resistance and the Romania's movement. And from here to "Haiduci" and other things, there's a distance which neither Contras, nor I were prepared to cross. WHY WOULD YOU? Finally, your way of exagerating (
) being proved wrong, I should like to express my wish not to be offended by your answer. Although I know this would be too much of a request, I feel bound to ask it! |
| Posted by: Radub July 05, 2013 08:26 pm |
| There was only one "resistance movement" in Romania that played a successful part in overthrowing the government with help from a foreign nation, and then helped the foreign nation to come over and impose their will in Romania. You know who they are. On that criteria, this "resistance movement" is a mirror image of the "French resistance". Hate it as much as you wish, it is the truth. "Resistenta din munti", brave as they were, failed in almost every respect and achieved nothing of substance. On that criteria alone they have nothing in common with the French resistance. So, that was my point. As for your aggressive tone, I am still not interested in a row with you. If you want to have a "discussion", fine by me. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM July 05, 2013 08:58 pm | ||
There is not "one" resistance movement, because not even the "historical parties" had the same goals, let alone the communist party. Or do you think that Maniu&co. figured out the republic before 23.08? Re: "aggresive tone" - of course, this is your only answer to my questions!  I appreciate the lack of slander, anyway... |
| Posted by: Radub July 05, 2013 09:38 pm |
| I cannot see how the "historical parties" even relate to this. Have no more to say on this. I am not trying to be "controversial", I am just pointing out facts. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM July 05, 2013 09:41 pm |
| You mean the "historical parties" did not have a role in the 23.08 coup? Weren't they a part of the "resistance" movement between late 1940 and august 1944? One straight answer would do. |
| Posted by: Radub July 05, 2013 10:08 pm |
| In as far as I know the "historical parties" did not have support from USSR and did not remain in power with supprt from USSR for the following few decades. The communists did. Similarly, the French resistance had support from Britain, played a major role in bringing the British forces into France and then they formed the government (De Gaulle, etc). There are obvious parallels in aim, support, methodology, outcome. "Rezistenta din munti" did none of that. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM July 06, 2013 07:37 am |
| Keeping on with this does not make you right. Clearly, mixing the 23.08.1944 with 30.12.1947 will not make "rezistenţa din munţi" look more or less like the French Resistance - which, BTW, was supported by the communists. Before 22.06.1941 there was no French Resistance whatsoever. |
| Posted by: Radub July 06, 2013 08:11 am |
| I made my point. I tried to explain it. You are free to take it or leave it. I honestly cannot explain it more clearly. In my opinion, "Rezistenta din munti" has little in common with the French Resistance and MUST NOT be compared to the French resistance. Yes, I am aware that for some Romanians, a Romanian thing can be "great" ONLY if it is "likened" to a foreign thing. To me that is stupid. It just reveals immaturity and insecurity. In my opinion, "Rezistenta din munti" was an original form of resistance. Why cannot we just have a thing that is just "ours" and trade-mark it as 100% our own? Here we have a clear example of original and pure Romanian thing and you are doing your best to dilute it and belittle it by effectively saying: "meh, nothing new... The French did that first ages ago! Epic fail." That is my point. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM July 06, 2013 10:21 am | ||||
I suppose you aren't necesary writing about me... Read "entirely" my post above:
[edited by admin] |
| Posted by: Victor July 06, 2013 06:18 pm |
| One off-topic post was deleted and one was edited. The topic is closed for one day, because the discussion is getting out of hand. |