| QUOTE (contras @ February 05, 2010 05:49 pm) | ||
Yes, I did. |
Sounds interesting. You can give us some details about battles
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Russian next generation MBT |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 04, 2010 05:45 pm |
| Good evening gentlemens, by making this topic I intend for us to discus what we know about the new russian MBT , also known as T95 ( Iforgot the "obiekt" designation ), and also try to make a general discussion of the new tehnologies which will debute with this tank and will most likely become standard in all next generation MBTs. As a paralel talk in this topic we will also discuss the impact which this tank will have in the Black Sea conflict areas , like Osetia, Transnistria etc so, what do we know so far about the T95: - ....by Jane's Defence Weekly, the main feature of the T-95 is its radical configuration with the main armament in a small unmanned turret fed from a newly-designed automatic loader located below the turret... - The T-95 MBT is armed with a 135mm gun which is believed to be of the smoothbore type and is fitted with a new FCS. Target information is provided via optical, thermal imaging and infra-red channels. The FCS also includes a laser range finder and possibly a radar. The design relies heavily on the FCS as the crew cannot use traditional optical devices to observe the battlefield and aim the gun - Crew protection on the tank will be emphasized to a far greater degree than ever before in Russian tank designs. The level of crew protection should ensure its survival when the tank is hit by any anti-tank munitions from any aspect or angle, thanks to the crew placement in a unitary armored pod inside the hull. - A unique drivetrain suspension system is being tested on this tank that to a certain extent extinguishes the hull vibrations and stabilizes its position. - The tank still remains in Class 50 (i.e. it weighs 50 tons) and it shall have an even smaller silhouette than the modern Russian MBTs. - The gun will be a 152mm smoothbore tank gun/ATGM launcher. The development of this system started as far back as end of the fifties for the heavy tanks (originally a rifled gun, probably M-69). The project was revived in the eighties and the gun was significantly redesigned. Even with ordinary powders a very high initial velocity of an APFSDS projectile is achieved. I could not, unfortunately, learn how the caliber increase is going to influence ammunition allowance and rate of fire. - This gun shall be located in an unmanned gun pod on top of the hull with no crew access to it. This is likely to increase survivability and lower the silhouette even further. - According to plans the crew will consist of a 3 man combat structure and one mechanic (not unlike the air force crew structure), who will be responsible for vehicle maintenance and will reside in a battalion service and repair company. |
| Posted by: contras February 04, 2010 07:03 pm | ||
I think it'll be long way to have any impact on these trobled zones, because Russians were no eager to sent their new toys in combat zone. Maybe because they are too expansive, too few in number, or, they are not so extraordinary like were presented (something between demo and real thing). Anyway, in August 2008 conflict with Georgians, they don't used (as I know) none of new tanks and technics. I refer myself at T-90, T-84, Oplot, and others who were in series production. Or, another explanation, the crews were not able to handle it, yet. It is very difficult for a conscript army to become familiarised with new toys (it costs a lot of time and money), and later come home, without a single occasion to use these toys in practice. |
| Posted by: udar February 04, 2010 09:41 pm |
| Well, i read it from years now about T 95, and its still on delay. At some point the Black Eagle/ Chorny Oriol was said is T 95, but aparently not. It will be interesting to see, however i think the 152 mm caliber gun is too big for a tank so probably 135mm is more suited, even if 125 mm which have now russians is already the biggest tank calibre. The electronics of the tanks dont know if it will be at the level of some western ones, as well dont know about the fiability of the gun. However, the rocket projectile in use are very interesting (i think just israelis have too) but very expensive so not in big number. As well, new AT rockets (or shaped charged AT devices as mines and IED's) are really devastating so dont know how well protected can be any tank. I am really curious to see it anyway. About being deployed in Transnistria, in a future war (interesting, so you think we'll have a war with russians there?) i dont think so, at least not in the near future. Russia doesnt have a border with Transnistria, and Ukraine i dont think will agree wilingly to let the russian army pass thru its teritory, because never can be sure it will not remain there, as usual for russians haha. Btw, T 84 is the ukrainian, not russian tank, but is based on T 80, with many improvments. |
| Posted by: udar February 04, 2010 09:47 pm | ||||
I think lately russians switched mostly to profesional army, at least for units deployed in war zones. However i think you are right in most part, T 80 and T 90 had some important casualities in first chechen war at least, the autoloader system and the munition storage its said is in a poor choise position in turret and break/explode imediatly if its hit from above and behind the tank, very often hits when you fight in urban or mountaneus areas, killing the crew too. |
| Posted by: contras February 04, 2010 10:29 pm |
| Thank you, udar, if you had some sources about participations of T-80 and T-90 in Chechenia, please let me know. Give your sorces, even on PM. Thank you again. About Georgia 2008, I'm very dissapointed about capabilities of Russian army. I know, and I said that again, that Russian army is better that it thinks others, but lesser that it thinks itself. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS February 04, 2010 10:47 pm |
| Hallo everybody, The probability to see in the future (2020-2025) a new generation russian tank in a war zone is high but it's more likely to be with the indian, iranian(?? can't be sure about this), chinese (?? also unsure), or other country army, but no russian army. They could deploy a number (hundreds not thousands I think) only with their elite troops but low chances of seeing them in battle -only if a war with Ukraine breaks out... hope not! But it's possible to see in combat other new weapons - I think f.i. at the BMD-4 airborne assault vehicles, BTR-90 armored personnel carriers, a.o. if short military campaigns like Georgia 2008 would happen. |
| Posted by: contras February 04, 2010 11:13 pm | ||
It is maybe a future look, but it apears some books about it. there are described many of the Ukraineana capabilities in a war against Romania. Is a techno thriller, like others written by Tom Clancy, but looks more real, because is a Romanian one. The plot is about an Ukrainean invasion against Romania, and how Romania strikes back. For details, look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3aF_iMoKmw http://www.marist.ro/aparitii-candarmelevorbesc.htm |
| Posted by: Iamandi February 05, 2010 07:16 am |
| You read that book? |
| Posted by: udar February 05, 2010 11:57 am | ||
Hi Contras Unfortunately i dont have that source to put online, i read about that in a foreign military magazine i came across some years ago. It was about russian tanks, and was mentioned the problems they had in Chechnya, especialy in the first war, and during atack of Grozny, when RPG and AT missiles make a lot of victims on russian armoured vehicles, including a lot of T 80 (and other tanks), due to armoured storage position and autoloader, when tank was hit from lateral, above and behind. T 90 saw just limited use in second war, i think, as well in Georgia recently, and was usualy spared by extensive use to preserve a good reputation, since is offered heavy for export and need to have a good press and image. In the same magazine was write as well about russian guns, who wasnt as reliable as western ones so need a sooner replacement after a number of firing rounds, as well the precision at certain distance can be lower when using standard projectiles due to barrel problems. A good thing was anyway the rocket projectil who can be used even against helicopters, but who is very expensive and use in much smaller numbers, as well harder to load. It was said anyway that T 90 is just an intermediary phase until new T 95 will enter in service, and both T 80 and T 90 will began to be retreated by 2025. Anyway, both have some weakneses, T 80 with the engine (which is a turbine gas engine) who is very sensible and a huge consumer, and with amo storage and autoloader, and T 90, who is a upgrade of T 72 with some T 80 features, but have a diesel engine (somehow underpowered its said) and the same amo storage and autoloader as previous T series. Russians try to improve that using not just multiple layers similar with Chobam armour, but active and passive defense system too, which probably will be used in new tank as well. This are some sources i find on net http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80 couple things about participation in war http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/5T90.pdf it is say there too about poor performance of T 80 in chechen war, and as wel that some russian officilas still believed that T 80 is better then T 90 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90a_1263267963&c=1 this is with the problems of T 72 http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080909/116657490.html problems observed in war in Georgia http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rusav.htm interesting review of russian armoured vehicles and urban combat as was happened in Checnya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeaUlu9iTs4 this is a combat vehicle designed by russians for urban combat because tanks cant elevate their guns for higher levels and this vehicle is intended to provide that kind of cover against AT crew from buildings roofs or higher levels http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJz1QSZ-sRw&feature=related and this is the reactive defense system developed for russian tanks it is say is quite effective http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c75VFnn26PQ&feature=related and this is a possible counter measue, such projectile exploding near a tank will destroy anything is not inside the armour, leaving the vehicle blind and deaf, so without those defensive measures and at the mercy of other AT systems. I read as well somewhere dont remember exactly where that in Georgia was some rumors that some israelis double charge At missiles was able to penetrate thru ERA of russians tanks, but i am not sure if was confirmed. Russian AT weapons performed well too against israelis tanks in their fight with Hezbollah (and in Irak too against american and even british tanks) |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 05, 2010 02:30 pm | ||
some people say the black eagle was more a bau-bau to scary others and the so called tank seen in an exebition some years ago had a dummy turret on it, anyway, it seams that this project is dead or dying for years now. But that is not the case with the T95 project which is up and running, the russian military ( if they are to be trusted ) they say the first units will be deployed in 2010 ( 2011 probably ). Yes, the israelis have the LAHAT system, good weapon. maybe this is why the russian could chose the 152 instead of the 135 mm gun, to be able to lauch bigger ATGMs. just my 2 cents here. I have been scanning the press for the last 4 years now and I can say the russians are preparing for something big, ( and all other major powers are doing the same, the signs are there to be seen ), plus if you take into account the whole strategy they had with the downfall of USSR and the so called anarchy era in russia, I really believe this was a beautifully carried out master plan which they had since the early '80s, at least. and now the new empire is rising from its own ash. Ukraine, and Belarus were just the safeguard russia had during this recovery period , they will be absorbed as soon as they will make the first move. and after this happens we will once more have a border with the russians, "happy" us. dont be fooled gentlemen, empires dont just fall, just take a look in the past and learn from the experience of others empires, take the egiptians for example, they had 2 periods of almost total disolution of the state and yet after 100 or 200 years of anarchy they built an even bigger empire, the persians did the same, even the romans had their ups and downs, and russia is going through the same stages, the tarist era, the soviet era, now it will be the ....( insert whatever name you want ) era. this is why this T95 new MBT is an agravation for us , romanians, and for the entire europe as a matter of fact. |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 05, 2010 02:32 pm | ||
indeed , they wont have too many of these T95, they will probably be complex machines hard to build, just like the chalenger and merkava , just as the T90 of which they have around 400 , the same will be with this new MBT, probably some hundreds of tanks, not many thousands as T72 and older models. |
| Posted by: contras February 05, 2010 05:49 pm | ||
Yes, I did. |
| Posted by: contras February 05, 2010 06:13 pm |
| udar, thank you for info! I'm going to look at them. About the Georgia conflict, Russian lasted me not so good impresion. Their tanks and BRDM-s herded on the roads, (even a blind soldier with AT could cause severe losses) no discipline, everyone smoking near the vehicles packed with ammo, etc. About Typhon comments about Russian empire, I totally agree. |
| Posted by: udar February 05, 2010 07:54 pm | ||||
Hmm, i agree that russians had a plan in 1989, and they know it they cant compete anymore, economicaly, and then technologicaly and military with the west (USA more exact), so they tried to "downfall" the "power game" played back then, so have a break to recover. But now when they start to recover somewhat, the pieces on the table are in diferent positions. The others doesnt exit the game for good either, and moved on. USA is now at Russia borders, and Russia still dont have the capacity to equal the americans in technology and military. And an even bigger challenge for them i think will be China, the "sleeping dragon" give signs its start to wake up, and the vast and sparsely inhabited areas of Siberia looks for sure nice for him. Empires appear, rise, then fall, its a history law, and its impossible to escape from it. The most powerful empire ever, the roman one, fell, and russians will fell too. Not as disapearing as peoples, but their empire will fell, and they will come to a smaller teritory and influence. In my opinion, now just their nuclear weapons (increasingly rusty, and with new ICBM based on submarines having more failures then succesess on tests) and natural resources make them to still be a big power. SU T-50 isnt as ready as expected, and not sure if at level of F-22 when will be ready. Even Eurofighter Typhoon can be a competitor on this, having good results in exercices with indian SU 30. But, i am really curious how T 95 will look and perform, if is not an endless delay as in case of SU PAK FA fighter jet (btw, i wonder why they scrpaed Mig 1.44 project, i always liked more MIG's) |
| Posted by: udar February 05, 2010 07:57 pm | ||||
Sounds interesting. You can give us some details about battles ? |
| Posted by: contras February 05, 2010 08:13 pm | ||
It is a fiction, a novel in Clancy's style. But I think is the first Romanian tehno-thriller. The plot is about a war started by Ukraine (a military dictatorship) against Romania. Same time, war begins in Taiwan, China tried to occupy it, and USA is involved directly. They're many descriptions of battles in Maramures, Dobrogea, naval battle in Black Sea, many aerial fightings, bombings, tank battles, etc. Some espionage affairs, hostage rescue action, and many more. Are many maps, that the action is easy to follow. I recomand that book, it is a fast turning page action. Here are some references, and a few maps I telling you about: http://www.marist.ro/aparitii-candarmelevorbesc.htm |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 06, 2010 07:44 am | ||
the mig project was a demonstrator a preprototipe, never suposed to be a first line fighter |
| Posted by: contras February 06, 2010 05:13 pm | ||
It is very true, fallen of empires is an historical fact, and an historical law. But in this moment, about Russian empire you could not be sure in what stage is it now. It is clear that now is in refluxe, maybe reached and passed the turning point. And it looks that it will come again, will try again to regain it's staus. And this will be the main problem for Russia and his vicinity. Will be an soft attempt, to came back with softpower, or will be a bonecrusher, like in Georgia. Or, I believe, will be both, a combination between stick and carrot. (military power and natural rezerves, bussines oporunities). And, finally, where will arrive. A global superpower, or just a regional one. In any case, we must stand against. |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 06, 2010 06:08 pm | ||
thats the spirit anyway, I feal this discussion is going towards history rather than T95 tech issues we should get back on track |
| Posted by: contras February 06, 2010 08:46 pm |
| You're absolutely right, Typhon. That is why I started a new topic, about this problems, maybe inspired by last discussion. http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5593 |
| Posted by: TYPHON February 07, 2010 11:22 am |
| so, to get back to T95 they say it will have a POD inside the hull for the 3 men crue. but a 3 men pod could be rather large, so where do you think it will be placed? in front or behind the turets central pilar? depending of the pod position then we can asses where the other main components will be situated, like the engine and the fuel tank |
| Posted by: ANDREAS October 15, 2011 10:32 pm |
| As you can read here : http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a5d47479a-23ea-41cc-9a0d-2e8de47fbf49&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest in the article "Russia Cancels Arms Programs" : "[...] The main victim is the mysterious Object 195 program that was aimed to develop a new generation main battle tank to replace existing T-80 and T-90 tanks in the Russian Army. The new tank also dubbed T-95 has been developed by Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod armor manufacturer in complete secrecy for more than 15 years. Popovkin said the military will focus on modernization of the T-90 instead.[...]" |
| Posted by: Petre October 16, 2011 08:30 am |
| http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_195 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-95 |
| Posted by: contras October 16, 2011 08:33 am |
| There are many others programs who were or will be canceled by Russians in order to focus on startegic weapons, like ICMBs aimed to penetrate the Missile Balistic Shield. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS October 16, 2011 12:41 pm |
| Yes contras, it's more likely that they will focus on the T-90 in an upgraded version called T-90AM : http://russiadefence.englishboard.net/t1368-first-photos-of-t-95-and-t-90am |