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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > 1968 - Russian-Romanian tensions |
| Posted by: Cezarprimo April 24, 2011 10:15 am |
| Hi all, I know that in 1968 Romania was opposed to the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia, a stance that provoked anger in Moscow. At the same time, in some Western capitals there were discussions about how much liberty of action should the Soviets have behind the iron curtain. I would like to ignite a discussion about what really happened back then. Did the Russians tried to invade Romania as well? Was the Romanian army preparing to defend the country against their "communist brothers"? If so, what chances would they have? How would the international community react? Cheers, C |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 24, 2011 05:34 pm |
| The Warsaw Pact troops were to invade Romania on 22 November 1968, at 4 am, according to documents from the Office of Public Archives in the UK. General ® Neagu Cosma, from the Foreign Intelligence Directorate (DIE), obtained through a Polish officer - which was in contact with Colonel Ion Bichel - information that Brezhnev personally, together with Andropov, head of the KGB and several Red Army commanders have prepared a invasion of Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia. Data further disclosed to Ion Stanescu, president of the State Security Council, have shown that this action was due to Kremlin's dissatisfaction over the policy of Dubcek, Ceausescu and Tito. The plan was developed in detail by a team in which the Polish officer was part. The invasion was supposed to take place in stages, first to Czechoslovakia, then at intervals of two to three weeks, were Romania and Yugoslavia. But Nicolae Ceausescu took not seriously the Securitate reports before August 20, 1968. On August 5, 1968, the Securitate prepare a summary note which shows that the soviet Secret Services had sent to the socialist countries embassies in Romania, under various coatings, especially tourists, well-trained agents with specific operational tasks. After the meeting of 21 August 1968 in front of the CC of the PCR, precautions were taken rapidly, the Securitate troops has been put into a state of alarm, the Securitate central directorates and centers had raised barriers from sandsacks at the windows and doors. In Ceausescu's conception, in case of war, the Securitate had to be the organizer of a partisan war. There were plans studied for both variants -Ceausescu's evacuation in China, as well as alternative roads to the south of the Carpathians, for a swift and safe travel. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 24, 2011 07:04 pm |
| Under this plan, the Soviet troops together with Hungarian and Polish troops were to invade Romania on 22 November at 4.00 am. Total number of invasion troops would reach 150,000 troops, said the document from the British Archives Office revealed to the public in 2000. Source : Ziare.com |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 24, 2011 11:49 pm |
| According to a romanian general, who represented Romania in the military structures of CFAU al Tratatului de la Varsovia (the United Military Command of the Warszaw Treaty) interviewed some time ago (2 or 3 years I guess) in the radio broadcast ORA ARMATEI on Radio Romania Actualitati the romanian military and political leadership had informations about at least 2 hungarian and 1 soviet mechanized division (from Hungary) who held intimidation maneuvers directly towards the western border of Romania at end august 1968, with another 2 mechanized divisions (1 hungarian and 1 soviet) which could be added immediately in an offensive action against Romania. Also a polish Detachment (2 Airborne Regiments, 1 Tank and 1 Reconaissance Battalions, and other smaller units) was dislocated in Eastern Hungary and was ready to join a military action against Romania. He said that other 8 to 10 soviet Divisions (mostly Mechanized but also Tank-) were ready to attack from the north and east (USSR-Ukraine and Bassarabia) our country. Naturally he could not say with certainty if the soviets had a plan or just simulated the preparations of an invasion to intimidate our leadership... |
| Posted by: 21 inf April 25, 2011 04:16 am |
| Long time ago I readed (unfortunatelly I dont rem the source), that Ceausescu made plans in case of defeat in front of soviet army. The plan was that surviving romanian army to retreat in Yugoslavia. The yugoslavian part specified that agree this plan, but romanian troops retreated on yugoslavian soil to be disarmed, as it was a foreign army on yugoslavian teritory (the same case as the polish army which retreated in Romania in 1939). |
| Posted by: Cezarprimo April 25, 2011 07:16 am | ||
I've found this article on the internet: [URL=http:// http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2000/jan/09/freedomofinformation.uk]Britain on brink of war with Soviet Union in 1968[/URL]. It was written by Martin Bright and appeared in "The Observer" on Sunday January 9'th, 2000. Next I am quoting the paragraphs pertaining to our discussion here as a measure of preserving them, should the article be sometime deleted from guardian.co.uk. The emphasis is mine.
P.S.: I've structured the post according to rule 14 of the 'Forum Guidelines'. However, as this is a rather large portion of the entire article, I would advise the site admins to check if this is infringing copyright regulations, I don't want to cause any inconvenience. Regards, C |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 27, 2011 06:37 pm | ||
I remember reading myself about this in a book, where were also published the transcripts of the talks between Ceausescu and Tito, or maybe, the romanian and yougoslav delegations... I am not sure... I guess there were also detailed the measures taken from our military from autumn 1968 onwards, but I can't remember very well which ones were these actually... something about keeping the soldiers, incorporated in the previous autumn, in the active duty, the mobilization of reservists, preparation of defense alignments in the depth of our territory, and some others I can't remember... |
| Posted by: 21 inf April 27, 2011 07:41 pm |
| Actually they kept in the baracks a surplus of soldiers, I think 3 contingents instead one or 2. Those who had to be liberated stayed more and some were called earlier to the duty. My father told me how it was, he was drafted soldier in the romanian army in 1968, aged 19. He told me they had a "consemn" called "Umbra" which said that all soldiers had to walk in the yard of the barracks only near the concrete fence, it was forbiden to show themselves in the middle of the yard, to avoid detection by posible spies, to camouflage the unusual increased number of soldiers in the baracks at that time. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 11:22 pm |
| For those interested in this subject (the soviet-romanian political and military tensions back in 1968) but also the whole political and military relations between Romania and the Warsaw Pact, please read : Larry L. Watts - Fereste-ma, Doamne, de prieteni /Razboiul clandestin al Blocului Sovietic cu Romania, Editura RAO, 2011. |
| Posted by: contras December 19, 2011 09:00 am | ||
Yes, ANDREAS, is a very interesting book, I recommend it, too. It is about the entire history of Romanian-Russian relations, until 1978. |
| Posted by: petru32 December 19, 2011 09:16 pm |
| My father was at the time a young lieutenant (lt-major), he was a flying instructor at the military flight school (I think Bobocu ) he told me that he was dispatched at Campia Turzii (which was not an air base yet, there were some ruined buildings) and put in charge of a unit o light aircraft where most pilots were older than him, they were organized as a liaison and light bombardment unit (I think), he told me that his subordinates told him not to wary as they already know what to do as most of them were World War 2 they were there for couple of months |
| Posted by: Dénes December 19, 2011 09:51 pm |
| In 1968, most WW2 veteran pilots were over 45 years old. Quite old age for a military pilot. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 19, 2011 10:34 pm |
| I read somewhere (I'll come back with a mention of the book or paper where I found it) that large-scale maneuvers of the Air Forces of Romania and Bulgaria were organized some time after 1970, maneuvers that faced air battles (mock battles), who were supervised by the Soviets (as usual) and after which the Romanian pilots were highly appreciated by the Bulgarian "opponents". But this does not change the outcome of a possible invasion of Warszaw Pact forces back in 1968! |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 20, 2011 04:10 am |
| In 1968 there was a big mobilisation of romanian army. The soldiers who were to be let to go home that year (lăsaţi la vatră) were not liberated from military service, but kept in the barracks. An aditional contingent was drafted, so in baracks were 3 contingents instead of the usually 2. And then, the legend of romanian laser apeared, the laser who melted the soviet tanks on the border   |
| Posted by: muggs December 20, 2011 10:16 am |
| I really want to find out some day who perpetrated this laser tank "urban myth"..my history teacher in high school for whom i had deep respect and also later found out that he wrote several works, even saw him on national tv 2 or 3 times...was VERY convinced that these were facts. Unless of course..these were deployed...  |
| Posted by: dragos December 20, 2011 12:04 pm | ||
Max age for flying is 50 for jet and 52 for classic (propeller) aircraft, after which military pilots are retired. |
| Posted by: Florin December 21, 2011 01:13 am | ||
There were American pilots from WW II who also took part in action in Vietnam. One example, at random: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Olds |
| Posted by: Florin December 21, 2011 01:28 am | ||
In primary school I also heard the laser tank "urban myth", from my colleagues. My generation did not like the Russians since we started to walk... This does not mean anything, other than the "urban myth" being well spread. By 1968 Romania was able to build laser technology, but I think no country in the world was able to use it as weapon back then. Today it is well known that Reagan's "star wars" anti-missile laser was a dream, but it seems Soviet Union believed it. Few years ago in the U.S. was carried a successful test where a powerful laser gun destroyed a missile or a drone. I guess they dream that eventually to kick off satellites with the laser gun. PS: OK, so the the Empire's land destroyers have the Romanian marks... The good part: Romania is a Galactic Empire of the future. The bad part: Romania is an evil Galactic Empire, and the good guys are teaming against it. I think the photo was taken when the Jedi and the clones were still fighting side by side against the robots and drones, so the land destroyer with Romanian marks was on the good side. |
| Posted by: Florin December 21, 2011 02:02 am |
| A comrade from my platoon told me that when the fear of Warsaw Pact was at its peak in 1968, his father with 2 fellow workers from 23 August plants (the former Malaxa plants) were given a machine gun which they installed in a church's tower, in a village. In those days the Romanians got into the "invasion fear" fever... Then, to kill time and boredom, the guys tuned their radio to "Radio Moskow" in Romanian... The Soviets were quite upset about what was happening in Romania, and the message was: "How do the Romanian leadership believe that Romania can resist to Red Army? Don't they understand that we did not enter in Romania just because we don't want that?" On my behalf, I learned with surprise under this topic that the plans to invade Romania were real. Deadly real... |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 21, 2011 06:11 am |
| Yes, the soviet plans to invade Romania in 1968 were probably real. Romania draw it's own plan for defence. It seems that romanians contacted Yugoslavia based on scenario of romanian army was defeated by soviets, asking from Yugoslavia to allow romanian armed forces who survived a posible battle against russians to retreat on yugo teritory, much as the polish army retreated in Romania in 1939. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 21, 2011 07:48 pm |
| True, 21 inf, but I have to add this : - Romania was confronted not only with a disproportionately strong opponent, but with an army command where many senior officers and generals were educated in USSR (we now know precisely the high degree of recruitment of the GRU of the officers who were studying in USSR), with the fact that the opponent knew well enough the composition, arrangement in the territory of the big units of the Romanian Army, the fact that the Romanian army had a lower degree of mechanization compared with Czechoslovakia f.i. (I refer here to less modern tanks, low level of transport and armored vehicles for infantry a.o.), large portions of national territory not covered with troops in case of war, a.o. |
| Posted by: udar December 22, 2011 04:23 pm | ||||
The story of ze mighty laser weapon  As everyone around i think, i heard too about it, and i read/heard quite few variants about it. One is that it wasnt an actual laser, it was just called like that because peoples back then didnt know much about such technologies. The weapon was actualy a plasma jet guided through some specific directional electromagnetic waves, or something like that, dont remember exact, and physic isnt my favourite science. The plasma "ball" or so, depending of the power used by the weapon, either make a big hole in the target, either vaporized it with all. The weapon elements was small enough to be adapted and used on heavy trucks or tanks chassis so making mobile enough Other variants are more simple, like Soviets tried a "recon in force" mission, and send some tanks over the border. Soon after the first tank crossed the border it was destroyied, either after it rolled over an AT land mine, either after was hit by an AT gun or missile. Soviets send after a while another single tank, on the tracks left by the first one, and recover it. Another variant was that China said that will help us vigorously in case of war (they just had some border clashes with USSR same year i think, and we was good buddies), and even USA asked USSR to not start a war. Because it was obvious we'll fight back, unlike Czeckoslovakia, and things can get messy. I read as well that at military parade held in Bucharest, on 23 August, just the Patriotic Guard gathered in Bucharest marched for a half an hour (there was tens of thousands of peoples who joined them) in front of official tribune. Later on it was calculated that in the case of applying the military doctrine of "war of the entire people" back then, it was needed for a supposedly invading force to use 1 million soldiers just to mantain their occupation of main cities and logistic routes, but kinda impossible to control the entire country Fact is that very strange for that moment, Soviets didnt do anything against us, not even some recon flights, or send some ships near our waters, even if is clear by now that they did have real plans to invade Romania, and they tried to get rid of Ceausescu up to 1989, by any means possible, except a direct military one. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 22, 2011 11:47 pm |
| Obviously I've heard from many sources, the legend of the Romanian Laser who burned some soviet tanks (I heard a version including incident location - near Siret city in Bukovina) but I also heard something which seems to be more plausible! In Ungheni major Soviet units were concentrated, and in late august a Soviet military delegation presented at the romanian border to request free passage on romanian territory because they received orders in this respect and want to avoid bloodshed! The Romanian border guard officer replied that something like that it's not possible, if the Soviet troops will cross the border they will be met with fire by his men, he had received clear orders in this regard and he we will follow this orders! Do you heard this story? (I heard this story from a neighbor who was an NCO in Timisoara Motorized Division back in 1968) |
| Posted by: MMM December 23, 2011 06:27 am | ||
And this you call "plausible"???? Have you EVER heard of such a gallant behaviour from Soviet troops? From what I've read, the USSR didn't really want to invade us, for two reasons: 1. Two countries in the same year would have been way too much for everybody (public oppinion, Western countries etc.) 2. Romania didn't threaten with pluri-partidism or leaving the Warsaw Treaty (like Czechoslovakia did) and Ceausescu was not perceived as a real non-communist leader. Some of you might be aware of the theory according to which Romania was "allowed" to pretend it is "out of order" within the Soviet Bloc, just to have a link with the Occident! I do not completely agree with it, but it seems more plausible than the laser that scared the Soviet Union! |
| Posted by: Imperialist December 23, 2011 08:58 am |
| The laser story may be true. Maybe we are so advanced in laser technology that they decided to build this here: Starting with 2015, Romania will have the most powerful laser in the world that researchers will use for high energy nuclear experiments, with results expected to exceed the laws of relativity. http://climatechange.thinkaboutit.eu/think4/post/when_nobody_wants_radioactive_waste_romanias_ready_to_commit |
| Posted by: udar December 23, 2011 10:04 am | ||||
That theory was made up by Pacepa, as a cover for his betrayal (he was probably a KGB agent, and probably his mission was to make Romania to look bad for USA). You should read what Larry Watts write (i think he was already mentioned). Not just that Romania wasnt pretending is out of order, but USSR (and its subordinated countries from WP) tried by all means (except military one) to bring back Romania "at order". After 1990 some archives (as ones of STASI) was open for study by some researchers, and it was pretty clear that Romania was saw as an enemy almost at the same level as a NATO country. More then that, in any Warsaw Pact war plans with NATO, Romania wasnt included, as far as i know. All this was secret, until after 1990, when some archives start to be more open. And it doesnt matter what regime was in Romania, democratic or not it was still an enemy, and i am sure USSR wished to change that. China was communist too, and still they had military clashes at borders in Siberia. So it is way more probable that something (i am not say it was necessary a "laser" weapon, but i dont exclude either that some kind of weapon system made them to think twice) made USSR to step back, and dont follow those war plans they made |
| Posted by: udar December 23, 2011 10:16 am | ||
I dont think i heard about this story, but is not that implausible. In Czeckoslovakia Soviets had many spies and even military intelligence personnel inflitrated in the country, to check the possible reactions and to make easy the arrival of WP troops. Soviet airplanes with troops who landed on Praga airport for ex., arrived after Soviet GRU and Spetznas ellements took control of the airport I will not exclude that some Soviet officers tried to see what possible reaction they may encounter in such case, especially as they doesnt had any intelligence sources at the level they had in other WP countries (in 1964 was a cleansing of Soviets collaborators in both the Army and Securitate). It isnt a gallant act, but a normal one to know at least a bit about what might happen in that case (especially if they heard about a previous crossing of border, when some of their tanks was vaporized ) |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 23, 2011 09:20 pm |
| Indeed udar, I also thought on this issue (they tested our reaction) and not to the totally nonspecific (for the soviets) elegant gesture! I also agree with you about the origin of the theory according to which USSR would never have wanted to invade Romania because the communist system was not threatened here - this theory was made to minimize the acts of independence of Romania and to discredit the favorable opinion of Western Powers towards Romania! I also read Larry Watts book who is excellent! |
| Posted by: MMM December 24, 2011 02:20 pm |
| All right, but I have a question: WHY would the USSR have wanted to invade Romania? (compared with Hungary 1956 and/or Czechoslovakia 1968) |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 24, 2011 07:25 pm |
| To answer you I should get to read the chapter of the book written by Larry Watts (is very documented!) but I did't reach that chapter yet! So an answer I can give now is only on the other books I read so far, which dealt with the invasion of Czechoslovakia, not with the possible invasion of Romania! My assumption is going on the foots of Brezhnev doctrine, even if in Romania the communist system was not in danger, the romanian autonomous policy embodied especially in foreign policy and defense, visibly disturbed Moscow! |
| Posted by: Victor December 24, 2011 09:22 pm | ||
I intended to buy the book after I heard of it on TV several months ago, but somehow it skipped my mind. Now I'm really going to get it. |
| Posted by: MMM December 25, 2011 07:53 am | ||
Obviously, but it it bother them so much as to invade us, too? oh, another thing that's pretty uch an urban legend: When did Romania refuse to take part in the "Danube" operation? The Warsaw Pact did not even think at inviting Romania to that!!! |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 25, 2011 01:59 pm | ||
Well MMM, it was (...ar fi fost...) the height of stupidity to invite us! The invasion occurred after tensions, latent threats, negotiations a.o. that have stretched from the spring of 1968 until the invasion of august... During all this period our leaders have always been on the side, and openly supported the Czechoslovak leadership, so... |
| Posted by: IoanTM January 05, 2012 09:58 am | ||
This seems to be somehow a wrong question - the correct one would be probably the following : Why the Soviet Army restrained itself for such an opportunity as another invasion ?  In a dictatorship like USSR - which heavily relied on army forces to maintain its internal structure - such opportunities are usually nice to be exploited as a reward ... or just to keep busy the officers ... |
| Posted by: Petre January 06, 2012 09:53 am | ||
Well, well ! It seems to be too much... The Soviet Army was not by itself. Also, in those years they were not big problems with the internal structure and, anyway, that was a KGB mission ... |
| Posted by: IoanTM January 06, 2012 10:04 am | ||
 Invasion of Czechoslovakia was not at all a KGB operation - but a real&complete Soviet Army operation. |
| Posted by: Petre January 06, 2012 03:31 pm |
| Please, don't get me wrong. It was about "... USSR - which heavily relied on army forces to maintain its internal structure ..." |
| Posted by: IoanTM January 10, 2012 10:08 pm | ||
OK - I get it now. But I still maintain my previous argument : despite the infamous reputation and discretionary power of KGB ( and Securitate and so on ) the Army in ex-communist states post-WWII usually enjoy an even larger power-base - dedicated enterprises, scores of conscripts to be used for "private benefit" too not for military instruction ( as normal should ), generous budgets and wages for ( inflated ) number of upper-ranks, whose enjoyed privileges too and so on. After fall of communism the Army-officers managed somehow to "clean" their public image while Secret Services officers remains ( the only ) scapegoats ... but this doesn't change the fact that the Army was a crucial institution too to maintain the establishment in Soviet Union.  |
| Posted by: ANDREAS January 11, 2012 12:37 am | ||
@IoanTM
I disagree with you if you refer to Romania and Romanian Army, especially after 1980! About the other countries from the Eastern Block and Soviet Union I believe you are right! |
| Posted by: IoanTM January 11, 2012 01:06 am | ||||
It's an interesting to discuss point - but generally I tend to agree with you ... In '80 - especially when Ceausescu started to "milk" the armament industry in order to obtain the needed foreign currency to pay the external debt ... there was somehow a "breaking point" in his relation with the Army ...  |