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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army at War > War crimes


Posted by: johnny_bi July 18, 2003 10:33 pm
There were Romanian officers accused after WWII of commiting war crimes ?
I do not mean Antonescu and other Romanian officials...

Posted by: C-2 July 18, 2003 11:49 pm
QUOTE
There were Romanian officers accused after WWII of commiting war crimes ?
I do not mean Antonescu and other Romanian officials...

Try http://www.generals.dk

Posted by: mabadesc July 18, 2003 11:51 pm
Oh yeah, about 50-60 generals alone were arrested and tried for war crimes, executing civilians, etc. Some were aquitted, but most ended up doing years of jails for their supposed "crimes".
Even the ones who were acquitted at their first trial in '46-'49 were tried again for the same crime in the '50's, and the second time around most were convicted. I'll post a list of generals who died in prison...you'll be surprised.

Posted by: johnny_bi July 19, 2003 03:43 am
I'm interested in real war crimes... officers. NCO, soldiers... examples of real war crimes commited by the Romanians.

Posted by: Victor July 19, 2003 10:47 am
Most "little fish" got away.

Posted by: Dénes July 19, 2003 02:38 pm
Check out the following book, perhaps in your local library:
Matatias Carp: 'Cartea Neagra - Suferintele evreilor din Romania, 1940-1944', Societatea Nationala de Editura si Arte Grafice 'Dacia Traiana', Bucuresti, 1947 & 1948.

The text includes names of soldiers and officers, units, places, etc., reportedly taken from the archives.

I don't know how accurate those allegations are, so a certain amount of awareness is recommended.

Dénes

Posted by: Geto-Dacul July 21, 2003 03:13 am
Dénes wrote :

QUOTE
Matatias Carp: 'Cartea Neagra - Suferintele evreilor din Romania, 1940-1944', Societatea Nationala de Editura si Arte Grafice 'Dacia Traiana', Bucuresti, 1947 & 1948.  


QUOTE
I don't know how accurate those allegations are, so a certain amount of awareness is recommended.


Oh... There's a lot of litterature about the "Romanian Holocaust"! To see how correct Matatias's allegations may be, check the "key" years of publications and also the fact that Matatias Carp was writing propaganda articles for "Signal" magazine during 1941-1944! I personally saw his name in a 1943 French edition of this magazine... When I'll find the exact coordonates, I'll give them.

Best regards,

Getu'

Posted by: johnny_bi July 21, 2003 03:19 am
Victor said :
QUOTE
Most \"little fish\" got away.


Any examples?

What was the position of Ion Antonescu in this matter? Agreed? Disagreed? Aproved? Did he encourage such acts ?

Posted by: Victor July 21, 2003 08:00 am
I cannot give you too many examples, since I could not find many names. Between 14 May and 13 July 1945m, 59 people were put on trial for war crimes. Some were surely guilty, like lt. col. VasileAgapie, the CO of the Vartejeni and Marculesti camps (he got 25 years), but others, like gen. Macici were innocent. 5 were acquitted. But 59 people is a fat too small number.

A serious, objective work on the Romanian Holocaust has not appeared yet. Hopefully it will and it will point out those who were responsible, so that some authors stop blaming the whole Romanian Army and people for it.

Some names I can give you (of people who were not put on trial) is maj. Gheorghe Vartic, from the 7th Division, who supervised the execution of 132 people in Tg. Herta or cpt. Ioan Stihi from the 6th Vanatori Regiment who ordered the shooting of 60 people evacuated by the Germans from Tg. Sculeni, because, as the report stated, Soviet weapons were found in their possession.

Ion Antonescu was the one the head of the State and he took the important decisions. He did sanction any authors of executions. The deportations were made at his order. The instructions were to execute the Jews that could not keep up with the convoys. It is also true that he refused to hand over the Jews from the Regat to the Germans. This happened before the Soviet winter offensive at Stalingrad.

Posted by: johnny_bi July 22, 2003 04:15 am
Victor said :
QUOTE
A serious, objective work on the Romanian Holocaust has not appeared yet. Hopefully it will and it will point out those who were responsible, so that some authors stop blaming the whole Romanian Army and people for it.  


Yes, it is true... But why there are some authors that blame the entire Romanian Army while the German Army was not blamed?

Posted by: Victor July 22, 2003 06:18 am
QUOTE


Yes, it is true... But why there are some authors that blame the entire Romanian Army while the German Army was not blamed?


Who knows what kind of agenda they have?

Posted by: dragos July 23, 2003 01:14 pm
A controversial event is the Antonescu's order of retribution after the partisan blew up the Romanian HQ in Odessa. Some sources mention that the order foresaw the execution by hanging of 50 communists/jews for every officer killed, and 10 for every soldier. In an article with an officer interviewed in the Romanian Military History magazine (I have to search for the issue because I can't remember many details), he said that the order was not executed literally. But it is certain that executions took place.

Posted by: dragos July 23, 2003 01:32 pm
Also, my aunt and my grandmother, settled in Odessa with public administration duties, remembered horrific images of the ghetto in Odessa.

They also saw russian prisoners loading train wagons, that were so hungry that they were crushing wheat or corn grains with stones, and eating the flour raw.

Posted by: Victor July 24, 2003 06:18 am
QUOTE
A controversial event is the Antonescu's order of retribution after the partisan blew up the Romanian HQ in Odessa. Some sources mention that the order foresaw the execution by hanging of 50 communists/jews for every officer killed, and 10 for every soldier. In an article with an officer interviewed in the Romanian Military History magazine (I have to search for the issue because I can't remember many details), he said that the order was not executed literally. But it is certain that executions took place.


On 22 October 1941, at 1745, 93 men were killed in the explosion of the Romanian Military Command in Odessa. As reprisals,on 23 October, between 0300 and 1100 417 Jews were executed, as follows:
23rd Infantry Regiment: 102
33rd infantry Regiment: 85
38th Infantry Regiment: 100
3rd Artillery Regiment: 130

During the trial of marshal Antonescu it was stated that 5000 Jews were taken to Dalnik (near Odessa) and put into 4 warehouses (25-30 m long and 10-15 m wide) and then killed with MGs and grenades and then set on fire. However, given the size of the warehouses, about 3000 could have entered inside them.

Posted by: dragos July 24, 2003 07:56 am
Here are some more details on the events in Odessa:

On 22 October, partisans blew up the HQ of 10th Division in Odessa. The explosion killed 79 men, wounded 43, another 13 being missing. 128 Romanians and 7 Germans. Among the 73 Romanians killed was general Ioan Glogojanu, commander of 10th Infantry Division.

On 23 October 1941, General Trestioreanu, according to the order #302826, orders that each regiment in Odessa to execute by hanging and shooting 100 jews.

4th Army receives the telegram #562 (#3161) with the order of marshal Ion Antonescu for executing 200 comunists for every Romanian or German officer dead in the explosion, 100 for every soldier. All comunists in the city and one member of each jewish familiy have to be taken hostage, all being executed in the event of a similar act.

On 24 October, the order #563 is transmited to general Nicolae Macici. Marshal Antonescu foresees that all jews fled from Bessarabia to Odessa to be executed. Another group of individuals (orders 3 161/302 858/23 oct) to be gathered into a mined building, to be blown up.

On 25 October, general Nicolae Macici reports the execution of over 13,000 jews and communists in Odessa. Over 400 were hanged in streets and squares.

Posted by: Victor July 25, 2003 06:26 am
Do you have this report?
I found a mention in Romania in al doilea razboi mondial by Dinu Giurescu. All Istoric, 1999, that gen. Macici proved at his trial, with documents, that he was not implicated in the reprisals.

Posted by: dragos July 25, 2003 07:15 am
The source where I found these reports is Razboi si societate, Bucuresti, 1999, by Alesandru Dutu and Mihai Retegan.

It appears that Nicolae Macici was one of the supervisors of the reprisals in Odessa, as part of the orders and telegrams were delivered to him directly. However, some of these telegrams specified to be destroyed after being taken note of them.

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu July 26, 2003 11:35 am
[quote="Victor"]I cannot give you too many examples, since I could not find many names. Between 14 May and 13 July 1945m, 59 people were put on trial for war crimes.

Some other names: first lot of 38 pax (14-22 mai 1945)
generals: N Macici, N Trestioreanu, Corneliu Calotescu, Florin Ghineraru;
colonels: Mihai Niculescu (contumacy), Stere Marinescu, Gh Zlatescu, I Murgescu, Modest Isopescu,Stefan Gavat, N Patrascoiu
captains: Radu Ionescu, Eugen Balaceanu (contumacy), Sever Buradescu, C Clinceanu
leutenants: Dumitru Ciachir, Grigore Trepadus
sergents: St Solomon (contumacy), Mihail Dumitrescu, N Melinescu

Second lot 28 pax:
Lt col V Agapie (25 years prison), major Dionisie Fotino (life prison), capt St Mihailescu (25 y. prison), Ioan Mihailescu (life prison), Cristodor Popescu (15y. prison) Ion Haranga (8 years), Alfred Follender (8 years), Ilie Juganaru (5 y) Isac Graur, C-tin Ruxandra C-tin Mihailuc (3 years each)
in contumacy: Gh Popescu, Marin Nita (life prison), Pintilie Valuta (25 years) C-tin Ivanovici, C-tin Calugareanu (20 years each),
aquited: major Teodor Delcea, Mihail Paliga, Ion Carneala, Cristu Naum, St Solomon.

source: Dinu C Giurescu "Romaina in al doilea razboi mondial" ed All istoric 1999 pag 165

B Miclescu

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu July 26, 2003 11:37 am
sorry second lot had 21 persons.
BM

Posted by: Victor July 26, 2003 07:00 pm
QUOTE
sorry second lot had 21 persons.
BM


Obviously, otherwise 38+28=66, not 59 :wink:

Posted by: mabadesc July 26, 2003 07:17 pm
The Simon Wiesenthal Holocaust museum website has a description of the "war criminal" Ion Antonescu and the Odessa incident. They draw the conclusion that "25,000 jews were massacred" due to the October explosion which killed and wounded romanian officers and soldiers.
Huge exaggeration, IMO.

I find it hard to believe that the famous order given by Antonescu was actually carried out literally. Any thoughts?

Posted by: C-2 July 26, 2003 07:58 pm
QUOTE
The Simon Wiesenthal Holocaust museum website has a description of the \"war criminal\" Ion Antonescu and the Odessa incident.  They draw the conclusion that \"25,000 jews were massacred\" due to the October explosion which killed and wounded romanian officers and soldiers.
Huge exaggeration, IMO.

I find it hard to believe that the famous order given by Antonescu was actually carried out literally.  Any thoughts?

I guess will never know the real number just will never know the real nr of people masacred in Bosnia,Cecnia,Cambodia and other places.
Anyway Wiesenthal foundation in a serious one and I don't belive it exageret.

Posted by: inahurry July 28, 2003 02:44 am
Victor wrote :

"Ion Antonescu was the one the head of the State and he took the important decisions. He did sanction any authors of executions. The deportations were made at his order. The instructions were to execute the Jews that could not keep up with the convoys. It is also true that he refused to hand over the Jews from the Regat to the Germans. This happened before the Soviet winter offensive at Stalingrad."

The sentence in bold characters is pure fantasy. In fact in these very few sentences there are captured at least 2 of the anti-romanian fetishes : 1. that Antonescu ordered or that he knew and didn't punish. 2. that the policy radically changed after Stalingrad when allegedly Antonescu got scared by the possibility of losing the war. To sweeten the pill it is thrown in a trivial truth - the jews in romanian controlled territory were protected. Quite a performance in falseness and cliches.[/b]

Posted by: inahurry July 28, 2003 02:57 am
By the way, repeatedly harrassing people through lawsuits based on the same accusation is common place these days. The only difference - there is no risk for capital punishment.

Also, the legal value of Nurnberg type trials ( Antonescu's - "the trial of the national high treason" how was labeled before it reached its conclusion ) is nil because for anyone with a bit of knowledge in the matter those trials were shameful ( for the idea of justice ) scams. At least Ceausescu's "trial" was so expeditive that no one bothers today to call it justice.

Posted by: inahurry July 28, 2003 03:13 am
In WW2 reprisals for killing regular troops in formally declared military occupied territories were accepted by the laws of war. The number executed as reprisals for the terrorist act - yes, that's what it was as long was carried by irregulars - is undetermined, the figure advanced there is a pure extrapolation which by itself proves... the lack of concrete proofs. There were 234 officers and military personnel killed, anyway less than 250, and at 100 to 1 ratio that would make 25,000. That's how it was computed. The ethnicity of those executed is obviously even more difficult to establish.

Posted by: Victor July 28, 2003 07:30 am
QUOTE
The instructions were to execute the Jews that could not keep up with the convoys  
. . .
The sentence in bold characters is pure fantasy.


From Instructiuni relative la deportarea evreilor din lagarulVertujeni-Soroca from 11 September 1941:

The convoys must have maximum 1600 people (including children) and must not walk more than 30 km a day
The Jews that cannot keep up with the convoy be it because of their inability to do so or because of sickness, should be executed.
From 10 to 10 km a mass grave for about 100 people should be dug, where all those that stray behind should be gathered, executed and buried.

Is this fantasy to you?
Please wake up from your dream world and see what actually happened. It is mainly because of people like you that most of the "anti-romanian fetishes" appear. If we would admit what happened and would search for the truth maybe we would end all of those.

QUOTE
that Antonescu ordered or that he knew and didn't punish


Do you actually think that the deportation of 110,033 Jews could have gone unnoticed for the leader of the Romanian state? Not to mention the 24,617 Gypsies deported at his direct order.

QUOTE
that the policy radically changed after Stalingrad when allegedly Antonescu got scared by the possibility of losing the war.


Actually the decision not to deport the Jews from the Regat was taken 5 weeks before the Soviet winter offensive in 1942.

QUOTE
To sweeten the pill it is thrown in a trivial truth - the jews in romanian controlled territory were protected


It was not meant to sweeten the pill. It is already too sour. I, unlike others, prefer to present all the facts.

From the letter addressed by marshal Antonescu to the Federation of the Jewish Community on 19 October 1941:

I have commitments to the Jews in the Old Kingdom. I maintain them. I have not taken any commitment to the Jews in the new territories. These, in their vast majority, are brutes. The ones guilty cannot be found. They are many, they are under cover. [he was referring to the troublemakers of June 1940]
I regret for the nice people. There must be of those also/

Posted by: dragos July 28, 2003 11:24 am
QUOTE
In WW2 reprisals for killing regular troops in formally declared military occupied territories were accepted by the laws of war. The number executed as reprisals for the terrorist act - yes, that's what it was as long was carried by irregulars - is undetermined, the figure advanced there is a pure extrapolation which by itself proves...  the lack of concrete proofs. There were 234 officers and military personnel killed, anyway less than 250, and at 100 to 1 ratio that would make 25,000. That's how it was computed. The ethnicity of those executed is obviously even more difficult to establish.


So the actions of the French partisans, even street fightings in Paris when the Allies were approaching, were also "terrorist acts" ? As long as the partisans fight on their ground, they can be called in any way by the invaders, but for their people they are not terrorists.

The reports I posted here about Odessa reprisals have source from archives. If we don't want to take this into consideration, then what should we consider?

The orders stipulated that the reprisals should be undertaken against communists and jews. While to find the jews was very hard when there were entire districts of them, to find communists in a Soviet city is even harder. laugh.gif

Posted by: inahurry July 28, 2003 03:32 pm
It wasn't "hard" to find jews or to consider all russians communists and kill them all. There is simply no proof about 1. the number of those executed. 2. their exact ethnicity or political ideology. In fact the rather scarce information when you take out the quotes that send the reader to another book and [b]not[/] to the reliable sources remains very thin.

The last "scandal" (july 25, 2003) stirred by Jerusalem Post regarding president Iliescu comments on some holocaust problems proves once again the current figures regarding jews deportation are totally unreliable. Every time they are inflated by simply checking a crystal ball. This is not historical research and for sure there is no interest in discovering the truth. There are too many political, financial and other extra-historical interests at stake. some may argue that killing 1 or a 1 million is the same. It is not so. Morally, killing is wrong but if there is a proven interest to falsify the historical data and even to hunt those who dare dispute figures and facts with documents on their side, well, you may finish the thought yourself. The colporteurs of (to say at lesat) grossly inaccurate data makes me wonder.

I'll return for that "order" when I gather the necessary data. Though it isn't strictly necessary because for those who know the feud between the Legion and Antonescu the case is clear.

Posted by: inahurry July 28, 2003 09:48 pm
What if we place the discussion in the right context.
Just today the Israeli ambassador in Romania insisted the Romanian authorities must admit that in Romania there was a holocaust during WW2. If you read the papers you can find out the amount of “symbolic reparations”, as Israeli official called them, is estimated to 9 billion dollars. If one adds this sum to the other major blows Romanian economy took it simply means Romanians are condemned to perpetual poverty and wouldn’t surprise me if we witness an economic collapse and possible the disintegration of the state. This while, cynically, the same Israeli authorities are concerned with the rise of neo-fascism ( a wild guess – who might be those rampaging fascists ?) which always seconds the, they say, impoverished nations. The quotes can be found in these last few days papers.
The $9 billion or any other “symbolic reparations” are obviously computed starting with the alleged, never proved, figures of thousands and thousands assassinated by the deliberate “genocidal” policies of former Romanian authorities from WW2, acting head of state then being, of course, Ion Antonescu.
Holocaust equals genocide. There was no genocide in Romania during WW2. There was no official policy to exterminate an entire population. War crimes certainly there were and, morally at least, the Odessa reprisals was such a crime. There existed also moral and legal obligations toward the civilian population in military occupied areas. To my knowledge, from the 11 (or 12) governors of occupied territories in former USSR put to trial only one was acquitted by the Russians, well, only to be sentenced and shot later, along with Antonescu, by the “Romanian” “justice”.
Ion Antonescu or the higher authorities of the state didn’t order or condone genocidal practices. The Romanian army wasn’t involved in genocidal practices, the key word being genocidal because otherwise the horrible brutality of war may be considered a murderous enterprise in itself.
The latest figure advanced during this very recent offensive to force impossible to pay obligations on Romania is 420,000 Jews killed during WW2, as always how is this figure obtained remains a mystery. But illogical as it may be it sheds light on the other grotesquely exaggerated numbers and the insistence with which they are proposed, over and over again, despite the lack of evidence to substantiate even a small fraction.
Due to these huge financial stakes it is hard to conceive how the truth will surface. The gradual censorship imposed on Russian, German, Romanian archives directed especially against those researchers who have no intention to bow before the new “directives” of how to write “proper” history and the rather dangerous activity writing a book on “delicate” history events has become leaves one very skeptical about where we’re heading.
Why certain topics obsessively turn up and why Ion Antonescu (as a side note, the Romans were saying – “if you can’t say anything good about a dead person then be silent”, assuming we are still vaguely related with our ancestors I’d say there is a lot to be said about him) is considered a war criminal, in the process the army which he treasured most and which he would have never used as an instrument for dishonorable purposes being stained and why, as we witness now, those who believe otherwise risk prison ? The answer is not to be found in the archives or history books but it is to be found inside the accountants books.

Posted by: Geto-Dacul July 29, 2003 03:36 am
inahurry, you are right... Why must we pay for unproved "war crimes"? And even if those were real, let's be fair : why isn't anybody paying for our own national "holocaust"?
Recently, another book was forbidden (not sure of the title) : Evreii din Romania 1939-1945 (published by a Romanian collective - that collaborated in many other books about the Romanian Army in WW2), just because it exposed a different vision from the official Jewish one of Jean Ancel or Radu Ioanid, but based on historical archives. Just to see how "liberty of expression" is granted today...

Posted by: Victor July 29, 2003 08:45 am
There was an article written by Tesu Solomovici in Ziua a couple of weeks ago. Try looking for it on the online edition. The book was published by Hasefer but was then melted. I will try to find the newspaper, but Idonot think I will be able to find it, since I do not keep newspapers that old.

Posted by: Victor July 29, 2003 08:45 am
QUOTE
There was no official policy to exterminate an entire population.


During the meeting of the Council of Ministers on 8 July 1941, Mihai Antonescu said:

With the risk of not being understood by some traditionalists who may be among you, I am for the forced migration of the Jewish element from Bessarabia and Bukovina, which must be thrown over the border. The same for the Ukrainian element. [. . .] We do not know over how many years the Romanian people will have such liberty of action, with the possibility of ethnic cleansing.

In July and August 1941, the Jews from the rural areas were brought in the ghettos in Cernauti and Chisinau. During this operation there were many executions: 411 at Vistierniceni (1 August), 210 out of a convoy of 300 in the Storojinet county (night of 4/5 August), 325 from the Chininau ghetto at Ghidighici (between 9 and 15 August), 451 in the Tataresti camp etc, etc.

I already showed what the instructions for the convoys were and how they were supposed to deal with those that could not keep up (which of course can be a very arbitrary decision). Between 110,033 Jews were deported to Trans-Dnestra. Only 101 (!!!) remained in Bessarabia and 19,475 in Bukovina (most in Cernauti, thanks to the mayor Traian Popovici, who saved many lives during those troubled times).

According to the 1930 statistics, there were 275,419 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. The next counting was done in September 1941. There were about 126,000. An estimate of 100,000 fled to the SU. So that leaves 49,419 missing Jews. In September 1943 there were still alive 50,741 in Trans-Dnestra. The number of the ones that died following the treatment they received was 59,292. If we add the two figures we get 108,711. The number of Ukrainian Jews killed in Trans-Dnestra is unknown to me. I have seen an estimate of about 130,000, but it was not detailed.

There is also the Gipsy problem. 24,617 were deported to Trans-Dnestra, that is 9,38% of the total number. 11,441 were nomads and 12,176 had convictions or had no occupation. About half of them died there.

The death of over 100,000 Romanian Jews (plus the number of Ukrainian Jews) and of 12,000 Gypsies seems to me like official policy to exterminate them.

The 1948 Convention of the United Nations defines genocide like this:
It is one of the acts mentioned below, committed with the intention to destroy totally or partially a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by:
a). assassination of its members
cool.gif. severely damaging their physical and mental integrity
c). purposely submitting it to conditions of existence which lead to their total or partial physical destruction


The 420,000 number seems indeed very high and does not have material support (no documents have yet been indicated for this number), but there was a genocide, whether we like it or not.

Posted by: Victor July 29, 2003 08:45 am
The pogrom in Iasi – June 1941

On 28 June, at about 2130 hours, shots were fired in different points of the city. At about 0300 hours a Romanian column was "attacked" on Lascar Catargiu street and another one on Lapusneanu street. There were no casualties. The neighborhood was thoroughly searched and nothing was found, according to gen. Leoveanu's report. He concluded that it was an attack with blanks (the tubes were found) and firecrackers which imitated machine-gun fire. Gen. Leoveanu considered that the attackers were legionnaires or robbers wanting to create panic in order to able to loot.

The Germans claimed that they had 20 casualties, but did not allow gen. Leoveanu to verify this and he concluded that they had none.

Thousands of Jews were taken to the police stations. On the road some were executed by German soldiers and SSI detachments. Others were massacred (the term used by the Leoveanu's report) by a German unit in the police station's yard.

As a result, brig. gen. Gheorghe Stavrescu (CO of the 14th Infantry Division) ordered the evacuation of arrested Jews to Calarasi, jud. Ialomita. 4,430 Jews were shoved into two trains (in cattle wagons). They had no water. The first one reached its destination 168 hours later, although it generally needed about 12. At least 2,521 Jews died on those trains.

Posted by: inahurry July 29, 2003 01:19 pm
Yes, French fighting to free their country were considered terrorists by the Germans. As much as, hypothetically speaking, an occupying force in Romania would consider those who resist terrorists once the official government surrendered. Americans have no qualm in killing anyone fighting them in Iraq, after the war officially ended, only the last major mopping up operation claimed 400 Iraqi lives, according to American sources quoted by news agencies.
The problem wasn’t and isn’t those guerillas who are killed in action and not so much the fate of those captured and who were usually executed (they still often are even in present days, especially where there’s no one to witness – see the mass murdering of fighters in the Islamic Legion in Afghanistan after they surrendered – I think it’s the latest example of this scale), it is assumed these people know what they’re doing and accept the possible consequences of their actions. The problem was and is the immorality of taking civilian hostages and possibly executing them in the place of those actually involved in a guerilla type action. Also, the deliberate terror operations in order to intimidate and subdue civilian population weren’t and aren’t exactly legal, not to mention moral, but it is common practice. And to make matters worse, the fact that WW2 laws of war permitted to some extent such actions. This is probably why all occupying force is willing to find some puppet regime to do the dirty work in its place because a puppet regime is more “legally” entitled to punish its subjects and also has a much wider array of laws and regulations it can invoke. Even if the brutality and expedience of war time executions is hard to be equaled an occupational/puppet regime can have much more devastating effect on the respective population – see the dark decade in Romania after 1945. Also, though it’s a rather trivial truth, it is comparatively easier to find those responsible (or to blame some) when a country loses the war.
Funny thing Romanians lose all the wars even those they win militarily (see Berlin treaty -–1878, the post WW1 obligations, even the WW2 harsh conditions despite or maybe exactly because of the traitorous August 23 act, and the complete devastation after 1989 cold war end, again it didn’t pay a dime to stand up against Russians in 1968, for example). But we also had an admirable survivalist quality though I think we are wearing thin after so many generations of “sacrifice”.

Posted by: inahurry July 29, 2003 01:30 pm
Interesting, opposing 1948 UN definitions to WW2 is about the same with pretending to enforce 1949 and beyond Geneva conventions to the same PREVIOUS WW2 period.

Romania was forced to accept massive Jewish migration as a condition for its existance as a modern state. Migration from those areas were the Jews were mass murdered.

Obviously if there was an intention to exterminate the entire Jewish population no one would have mentioned only the migration of part of it. And ignoring the context - the attacks on the Romanian authorites in exactly those provinces that spread a wide resentment would be a mistake.

Would be a too long story to analyze that remark in the wider context of what was meant by "the final solution" in Germany, what influence those ideas had how they evolved and what was ultimately their implementation. A too long story not only because of the risks but because the roots of the problem are to be found in the second half of 19th century.

Anyway, was the Romanian Army, as an institution, not rogue elements, involved in a genocidal activity ?

Posted by: inahurry July 29, 2003 02:06 pm
"According to the 1930 statistics, there were 275,419 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. The next counting was done in September 1941. There were about 126,000. An estimate of 100,000 fled to the SU. So that leaves 49,419 missing Jews. In September 1943 there were still alive 50,741 in Trans-Dnestra. The number of the ones that died following the treatment they received was 59,292. If we add the two figures we get 108,711. The number of Ukrainian Jews killed in Trans-Dnestra is unknown to me. I have seen an estimate of about 130,000, but it was not detailed. "

Goodness, man, only by substracting statistics from 3 different years for 2 different regions, admitting an unkown migratory factor plus undetermined forced transfer and the result you get, ignoring the 1944 battlefields and the post war turmoil and you draw the conclusion 100,000 or more people were exterminated.

I suppose you have an idea how the revisionists, on a much more thorough research determined, from the statistics mainly, the impossibility that 6,000,000 ever be present in German or German controlled territories. Thank you very much, but substracting statistics, even in much more stable times, proves nothing about WHAT happened with the missing numbers, assuming those numbers would be accurate.

Posted by: Victor July 30, 2003 08:54 am
QUOTE
Interesting, opposing 1948 UN definitions to WW2 is about the same with pretending to enforce 1949 and beyond Geneva conventions to the same PREVIOUS WW2 period


Just because the definition was given in 1948, it does not mean that it was genocide? MyGod,are you that cynical?

QUOTE
Anyway, was the Romanian Army, as an institution, not rogue elements, involved in a genocidal activity?


To this question I cannot give an answer since I have not seen enough information on the subject. My opinion is that generalizing is bad and one cannot blame an entire nation (and there are some that do) for what happened. The individuals responsible must be pointed out. The same for the army.

QUOTE
Goodness, man, only by substracting statistics from 3 different years for 2 different regions, admitting an unkown migratory factor plus undetermined forced transfer and the result you get, ignoring the 1944 battlefields and the post war turmoil and you draw the conclusion 100,000 or more people were exterminated


There was no "undetermined forced transfer". 110,033 Jews were deported to Trans-Dnestra (as I already posted; did you bother to read all?). Since in September 1943 there were still 50,741, this means that 59,292 died there due to the treatment they received. To me it is very logical and I do not see what 1944 has to do with anything here.

As for the number of Jews that died before the deportations started (mainly in executions), that is probably not very accurate and German soldiers were also responsible for some of the killings. But there were executions committed by the Romanian army as it reentered Bessarabia.

Posted by: inahurry July 30, 2003 02:48 pm
I bothered, yes. But I didn't bother to dispute an affirmation, because this what it is.

No, I am not cynical, even if I were I don't see how it would be your business if I am cynical, choleric, phlegmatic, hedonist, wagnerian, vegetarian or whatever, something else matters. Mass deportation or "voluntary" flee before an ennemy you fear (serbs "voluntarily" fled in just 1 week period from Krajna when the Croats attacked - the conservative estimates say 200,000 of them are still displaced from their native land) is not genocide although is to be condemned. (About selective condemnations there's surely no need to insist, they are common practice). You were refering to "ethnic cleansing" , even if today the notions are twisted to the various whims, the forced migration as such is not genocide. So if you want to mix all notions and decree everything is genocide, suit yourself. If you want to oppose definitions and political stances occuring from those definitions (and charts, treaties, etc.) that were adopted AFTER the events, suit yourself.

Posted by: Whodareswings March 04, 2004 07:47 pm
[quote]Dénes wrote :

[quote]Matatias Carp: 'Cartea Neagra - Suferintele evreilor din Romania, 1940-1944', Societatea Nationala de Editura si Arte Grafice 'Dacia Traiana', Bucuresti, 1947 & 1948.
[/quote]

[quote]I don't know how accurate those allegations are, so a certain amount of awareness is recommended.
[/quote]

Oh... There's a lot of litterature about the "Romanian Holocaust"! To see how correct Matatias's allegations may be, check the "key" years of publications and also the fact that Matatias Carp was writing propaganda articles for "Signal" magazine during 1941-1944! I personally saw his name in a 1943 French edition of this magazine... When I'll find the exact coordonates, I'll give them.

Best regards,

Getu'[/quote]





I am researching the Legionary revolt of Jan 21-23, l941 in Bucharest. Specifically, I am tracing the various sources for the account the event at the municipal abbattoir in Bucharest in which it is claimed anywhere from 11-200 Jews were killed in an particularly grisly manner by maurading Legionaries.
I would like to know more about Mataias Carp's career as a propagandist, mentioned above, as his book Cartea Neagra is inevitably cited to verify this atrocity. I can't find any reference to this event in the the English translation posted on the Internet, published by Simon
Books. I assume the Romanian original must have it because it appears as a footnote in so many texts about the Holocaust in Romania and about the crimes committed during the Legionary rebellion.
Can anyone provide me with more information about the reliability of Matatias Carp?
Ex-Legionaries have stated that the famous story of the abattoir was 1. invented by Eugen Cristescu (Pe marginea prapestiei). Invented by the Soviet propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg who also wrote a book entitled Cartea Neagra. 3. Invented by the American foreign correspondents Leigh White and Robert St, John. 4. That it was actually some dead Legionaries dragged off the street and found hanging on hooks there not Jews.
I am confused about the location of this municipal abattoir. Carp says it was in the Spaiul Unrii. Dr. Radu Ioanid places it on Pantelimon and Fendeni avenues in Bucharestii Noi. I.C. Butnaru has it in Baneasa. In many other accounts that I have read the location is given as Straulesti. Are Straulesti, Baneasa, Bucharestii Noi and the Spaiul Unrii all in the same geographical area?
German army photo documentation is often mentioned, but I can't find any at either Yad Vashem or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Any further information in Matatias Carp or additional source material for this event would be welcomed.

Posted by: C-2 March 04, 2004 08:18 pm
Straulesti,Baneasa and Bucurestii Noi are in the same area.In the North of town,
Spaiul Unirii is in the center.

Posted by: Victor March 04, 2004 08:36 pm
The figure for the Jews killed during the rebellion is 118.
To the Forensic Institute in Bucharest were brought 212 bodies during 21-23 January: 109 Jews, 6 Germans, 2 Hungarians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 93 Romanians. The places from where these people were brought were: Victory Way, National Theatre Square, Police Prefecture, Bonaparte Boulevard, the Slaughterhouse, Mihai Bravu road, Jilava, Emergency Hospital, Filantropia hospital, Polizu Hospital, Coltea Hospital etc, etc.

Apparently 11 bodies were found at the Slaughterhouse (Abator).

Posted by: Whodareswings March 05, 2004 07:33 am
QUOTE
The figure for the Jews killed during the rebellion is 118.
To the Forensic Institute in Bucharest were brought 212 bodies during 21-23 January: 109 Jews, 6 Germans, 2 Hungarians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 93 Romanians. The places from where these people were brought were:  Victory Way, National Theatre Square, Police Prefecture, Bonaparte Boulevard, the Slaughterhouse, Mihai Bravu road, Jilava, Emergency Hospital, Filantropia hospital, Polizu Hospital, Coltea Hospital etc, etc.

Apparently 11 bodies were found at the Slaughterhouse (Abator).


I believe these numbers are from the footnotes to Chapter Three in Dinu Giurescu's ROMANIA IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR (1939-1945). Do you have the book he cites in footnote 64 (The Romanian Right Wing Radiography 1927-1941, FF Press, Bucharest, 1996) for the 11 Jews brought from the slaughterhouse to the Medico-Legal Institute for autopsy?

Are any names and domiciles of these 11 victims listed there, or in The Martyrdom of the Jews of Romania 1940-1941 Documents and Testimonies, Hasefer, Bucharest , l991, pp.69-71 which is cited in the following footnote no. 64 ?

Can you provide anymore information for me about these 11 victims? Coroner's or police reports on age, gender, and method of murder?

Posted by: Victor March 05, 2004 07:50 am
QUOTE
Can you provide anymore information for me about these 11 victims? Coroner's or police reports on age, gender, and method of murder?


Sorry, no.

Posted by: Whodareswings March 06, 2004 12:36 am
DECLARATION
I, Darasteanu I. Constantin, born July 28th, 1914, in the village of Stoinesti, in the county of Vlasca (today Giurgiu), living in Bucharest, ............, aware of the sanctions of article 292 in the Penal Code, referring to lying in one’s declarations, state the following:
In January 1941, I worked at the Aerial Base No. 3 Pipera (later named ASAM) as team captain, (principal master of mounting)?, and airplane constructor, at that time, I had been on the job for 3 (three) years. On the day of January 24th, 1941, I had a discussion with another worker by the name of Preda Petre, called Drusca, a mechanic, who in the preceding days, January 21-23, has been missing from the work place: He was a Legionary and had participated in the rebellion. He told me that at the abattoir, there were the dead bodies of some Legionaries hung in hooks, of which it is affirmed to be the bodies of some Jews killed by Legionaries. I reported what I found from Preda Petre to my engineer commandant Constantinescu Cristea and asked him what he thinks should be done. The Commandant answered me that he doesn’t know what we should do and to whom to report the findings, but before anything, such information needs to be verified. He recommended me to take the mini-van (a Skoda) with which we gathered our provisions of meat from the abattoir, and go there, at the abattoir, to find out the truth. I mention that at that time, I made frequent reports on technical subjects, for the magazine "Broken Wings-Romanian Wings", led by commandant Emil Garleanu (relative with the writer by the same name), who had become a general. I left with the driver, a soldier on guard, who knew the abattoir well, where we arrived and entered through the main gate, saying that we were only there to get meat for our people, like usual. We then entered, and we noticed that almost nobody was working, everybody walking around, from group to group, they talked nervously, with gravity in their voice. I tried to start a discussion with them, but they seemed to pull away, and when I asked them if it was true that, somewhere, in the butchery, there were some people, some Jews, hung in hooks, they wouldn’t answer. They told me to be more discreet and prudent. One of them, whom the others called "Mister Vasile" and who was the head of one of the teams of butchers, answered me: "Yes, sir, but they’re not Jews, they’re Romanians!" The driver who came with me knew him and introduced us: his name was Stoica Vasile. He showed me the direction in which the bodies were and told me to not be seen by the bosses of the abattoir or by their men. At about 50 meters I found the spot, where I arrived alone, without anyone. I counted the bodies hung in hooks, they were 11 or 21, I forgot the exact number, I only know it ends in 1. Near the wall there was another pile of bodies, with their clothes dirty with mud and blood. The bodies hung in hooks had coats on them, one still with the hat on (a simple, peasant, fur hat). I moved the coat a little on the first three bodies and I saw each one’s mortal wound, from which blood had flown and had stained the clothing. The third body had a green, Legionary shirt underneath his coat. I didn’t touch the other bodies, and I returned to the driver. He was talking to Mister Vasile, whom I asked: "Mister Vasile, who are these people?" He answered that they are Legionaries shot by the army, that around the abattoir more Legionaries had been shot, and that these Legionaries were gathered form the street by trustworthy people of the bosses of the abattoir, at their command, and gathered in the abattoir, where they were hung in hooks and declared Jews killed by Legionaries. I am restating the words of Vasile Stoica: "They are not Jews, sir, they are Legionaries shot by Antonescu, and the Jews from the abattoir, with the help of their men, pulled them from the street into the abattoir, they hung them in the hooks and are claiming they are Jews." I mention that at that time, the abattoir was an administrative society, controlled by Jews. Mister Vasile also mentioned: "Our Jews, who lead the abattoir." Also, I mention that I told the driver that, if he wanted, to go and see for himself the people hung in hooks, but Mister Vasile stopped him, telling him it’s not good, since some of the "people upstairs" noticed the movement we have made and are now watching us. I asked Mister Vasile if he was willing to declare the things that happened at the abattoir for other people as well, in case it would ever be necessary. He said he agreed, and he gave me his address –he lived by the abattoir, on the Splai, and after that I visited him many times and we became friends. I found out that after that, the Army removed the bodies from the abattoir and took them in the forest Padurea Plumbuita. My visit to the abattoir took about 15-20 minutes. When I left, I took a load of meat for my troop, more pork bellies than anything else.
When I returned to the base, I went to the commandant and I told him what happened. The commandant considered that it is his job to report this further. I retreated from his office and went into the mounting room, in the main hangar. An hour and a half later, the commandant came to me and told me that he had called the Council of Ministers, at Horia Sima’s office, and asked to talk to him. They told him: "Comrade Horia Sima no longer exists, nobody knows where he is." I mention that in the following days, the rumor about the killing and the hanging of the Jews in the abattoir went around, but nobody took it seriously. Even the simplest women from the Bucharest crowd kept asking "why don’t the Jews tell Antonescu about the happenings?" I mention that I wasn’t a member of the Legionary Movement, but, similarly to many colleagues of mine from the aviation, we sympathized, as a Romanian and a Christian, the ideas of Corneliu Zelea Codreanu. Also, I mention that I was condemned after 1944 for "the crime of going against social order" and I went to prison for 11 years. I met Vasile Stoica many times after that, the last time, I think, being in 1970. He had a boy who may still be alive. I mention that I met Professor Ion Coja on the day of December 20th, 2003, when I met him to tell the above happenings. The meeting was disturbed my Mister Neagoe Nicolae Mateescu and Dogaru Victor-Dorian, to whom I told the happenings from the abattoir and agreed that I have to tell this to Professor Ion Coja as well, whom I knew from TV. I agreed to meet with him and tell him all of this paper, which I sign fully aware of its importance. I give the present declaration to serve anywhere it may be needed.
Printed and signed in 6 copies.

Posted by: Whodareswings March 09, 2004 05:02 pm
In Volume II, DOCUMENTS CONCERNING THE FATE OF ROMANIAN JEWRY DURING THE HOLOCAUST, Dr. Jean Ancel, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1982-87 pp. 197 the abattoir is indicated as being in Baneasa. This page is a reproduction of a newspaper article apparently published in l945 commemorating the events of January 1941.

On page 299 in a report drawn up on March 8. 1941 by W. Filderman and M. Carp the abattoir is located at Spaaiul Uniri. The typewritten text is practically illegible, but there appears to be 9 names with domiciles listed.

Despite the different locations for the abattoir given, the Filderman/Carp document seems to contradict the declaration of the eyewitness quoted above.

I would think that since this highly exaggerated atrocity story is repeated so often in Romanian WWII history books to suggest a national propensity for barbarism that some Romanian historiographer would want to at least deconstruct it, of not refute it completely.

Posted by: petru March 09, 2004 07:35 pm
There were crimes in Baneasa forest too. I think prof. iorga was shot in Baneasa. Probably that person mixes the two events.

Posted by: Whodareswings March 10, 2004 12:58 am
The book I mentioned (DCFRJDH) is a collection of copied documents in 8 volumes. The location of the abattoir (abator) is not given on page 197. I misread this. "la abatoruj communal" is simply mentioned with "la Jilava" and "la Baneasa" in the Jurnalul de Dimineat ? Duminica 21 Januarie 1945 as a place where some bodies were found. I did not see the comma (,) Sorry!

I am still curious about the location of this place. And I am most curious about the career of Matatias Carp.

Whodareswings
[/quote]

Posted by: Victor March 10, 2004 02:36 pm
QUOTE
There were crimes in Baneasa forest too. I think prof. iorga was shot in Baneasa. Probably that person mixes the two events.


Iorga was shot at Strejnic, which is near Ploiesti

Posted by: Whodareswings April 01, 2004 12:44 am
QUOTE
Oh... There's a lot of litterature about the \"Romanian Holocaust\"! To see how correct Matatias's allegations may be, check the \"key\" years of publications and also the fact that Matatias Carp was writing propaganda articles for \"Signal\" magazine during 1941-1944! I personally saw his name in a 1943 French edition of this magazine... When I'll find the exact coordonates, I'll give them.  

Best regards,  

Getu'


Can anyone tell me about "Signal" magazine? (what sort of a publication was this? What kind of propaganda was Carp writing for it?) Or about Reserve Lieutenant I.N. Valescu, the Military prosecutor quoted by Matatias Carp in the Romanian edition of Cartea neagra? Is there a list of victims names in Carp's book?
Is there any testamony from this Reserve Lieutenant I.N. Valescu (or anyone else) about the event at the municipal abattoir, or about persons charged with those crimes, in Pe marginea prapastiei?

Is there any information about the prosecution of Legionaries after the revolt in Cristian Troncota's book about Antonescu's Chief of Intelligence, Eugen Cristescu? If so, please summerize as I don't read Romanian. Thank you.

Posted by: Victor June 20, 2005 04:54 am
For those interested in the Report of the International Commission, it is published here on the site of the ISPAIM (http://www.ispaim.ro/), in both English and Romanian.

Posted by: johnny_bi June 21, 2005 02:26 am
QUOTE ("Victor")
For those interested in the Report of the International Commission, it is published here on the site of the ISPAIM (http://www.ispaim.ro/ ), in both English and Romanian.


I've not read too much of the report (lack of time)...
"Romania, second after Nazi Germany"... "Between 280000 and 380000 Jewish victims"... "Some of the most hideous crimes."

I have read about the Antonescu's "intention" to deport all the Jewish population from the old Regat to Poland. There are some documents or there was only the intention? (I had no time yet to read all the report).


Well, I know that the death of one human is already too much, but I am impressed by the relativity of the figures in this report. After presenting waves of numbers, the commission couldn't estimate by itself the number of victims?

QUOTE
Various researchers have calculated different estimates of the death toll of Romanian and Ukrainian Jews under Romanian administration during the Holocaust. Dinu C. Giurescu counts at least 108,710 Romanian Jews who died in Transnistria; but this number does not take into account the Ukrainian Jewish victims or the Jews killed on the spot in Bessarabia and Bukovina. According to Dennis Deletant, between 220,000 and 270,000 Romanian and Ukrainian Jews perished in Transnistria, while Radu Ioanid asserts that at least 250,000 Jews died under Romanian jurisdiction. Matatias Carp mentions 264,900 Romanian Jews missing, but this does not include Ukrainian Jewish victims. Raul Hilberg cites the destruction of 270,000 Jews under the Romanians, as does Mark Rozen who counts roughly 155,000 Romanian Jews and 115,000 Ukrainian Jews killed in Transnistria. Finally, Jean Ancel maintains that 310,000 Jews perished in Transnistria alone, and to this must be added another 100,000 Jews killed in Bessarabia and Bukovina during the 1941 campaign in these provinces.

In summary, the total number of Romanian and Ukrainian Jews who perished in territories under Romanian administration is between 280,000 and 380,000.


Anybody, any comments?

Posted by: Victor June 21, 2005 05:25 am
Indeed, it is regrettable that a definte number couldn't be established. A difference of 100,000 between the extremes is very high when talking about human lives.

Posted by: dragos June 21, 2005 07:26 am
Here is what I wrote some time ago in the Romanian Army & Holocaust claims topic:

QUOTE (dragos)
The report says that Romanian authorities were responsible for the death of 280,000 - 380,000 and Jews in Romania and administered territories.

But how did they come to this number:

- between 45,000 and 60,000 Jews were killed in Bessarabia and Bukovina by Romanian and German troops in 1941 (how many by Romanians and how many by Germans?);

- in Transdnestra, between 105,000 and 120,000 Jews died because of the deportations (but not directly killed by Romanian troops, who may refute the possibility that some may have died because of the Germans before 1944 or because of the Soviet administration after 1944)

- in Transdnestra, between 115,000 and 180,000 Jews were killed, especially in Odessa and Golta and Berezovka counties. The executions in Odessa were carried, according to the known reports, by both Romanian and Germans troops. Why should the entire number must be attributed entirely to Romanians?

- in Iasi, at least 15,000 Jews were killed during the pogrom.

45,000 + 105,000 + 115,000 + 15,000 = 280,000 , and this is the lower figure of Jews killed for which the Romanian authorities and government should be responsible !

Posted by: sid guttridge June 21, 2005 09:48 am
Hi whodareswins,

I have never seen the abattoir story used to "suggest a national propensity for barbarism". If true, it is only of discredit to the Iron Guard.

Only if you think that the Iron Guard was synonymous with the Romanian nation could your conclusion be drawn. It was not.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes May 03, 2006 08:59 pm
The following is an official ACME News Photograph, published on Sept. 28, 1945, captioned as follows:

QUOTE
WWII Rumania Dr Fritz Klein Poisoned Bergen-Belsen KZ Lager Inmates


user posted image

Obviously, Dr. Klein must have been a member of the German ethnic minority from Rumania. Any further info on him?

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist May 03, 2006 09:47 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 3 2006, 08:59 PM)
Any further info on him?

Gen. Dénes

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/BergenBelsen09.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Klein

thank Google wink.gif

Posted by: Jeroen May 21, 2009 11:17 am
QUOTE (Victor @ July 21, 2003 08:00 am)
A serious, objective work on the Romanian Holocaust has not appeared yet. Hopefully it will and it will point out those who were responsible, so that some authors stop blaming the whole Romanian Army and people for it.

Ion Antonescu was the one the head of the State and he took the important decisions. He did sanction any authors of executions. The deportations were made at his order. The instructions were to execute the Jews that could not keep up with the convoys. It is also true that he refused to hand over the Jews from the Regat to the Germans. This happened before the Soviet winter offensive at Stalingrad.

Some time has passed now

2007 saw publication of Rumanien, der Holocaust und der Logik der Gewalt, Oldenbourg Verlag, Munchen by Armin Heinen

Is this he first serious objective work on the subject? It is claimed to make use of newly available (German) sources, collected by Ottmar Trasca and Denis Deletant,among others.

Renate Nimtz-Koster in Suddeutscher zeitung (18.3.2008) claims it to be the first serious German language in extenso study about that thema.

How was it received in Romania?

"Heinen examines the perpetrators and their motives."
"Also it is written that unlike other countries the Rumanian case is based on local and voluntary cooperation with Germans on Judenvernichtung.
Because in comparision Romania was not occupied by German troops like Belarus, Poland, Hungary, France."

Posted by: MMM May 30, 2009 07:50 pm
To whom do these lines belong? A historian, a journalist, what authority? I guess that we are eithe not ready yet or much too late to accept our share in the Holocaust. By "we", I mean Romanian people, of course...

Posted by: Jeroen May 30, 2009 08:29 pm
QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 21, 2009 11:17 am)
Renate Nimtz-Koster in Suddeutscher zeitung (18.3.2008)

"Heinen examines the perpetrators and their motives."
"Also it is written that unlike other countries the Rumanian case is based on local and voluntary cooperation with Germans on Judenvernichtung.
Because in comparision Romania was not occupied by German troops like Belarus, Poland, Hungary, France."

These lines were by Dr. (philologie) R. Nimtz-Koster since 27 years in redaction of science departement of der Spiegel.

Another more recent book
Shai Dov, The Holocaust of the Jews of North Bukovina, 2006 Tel Aviv, 616 pages, is claimed to be a thorough researched work

Posted by: 21 inf May 30, 2009 09:26 pm
Hungary was ocupied by Germany only in 1944. Till then Hungary was one of Germany's ally.

Posted by: Dénes May 31, 2009 05:43 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ May 31, 2009 03:26 am)
Hungary was ocupied by Germany only in 1944. Till then Hungary was one of Germany's ally.

That's correct. Hungary was militarily occupied by Germany in March 1944. However, naturally, it remained Germany's ally after that, too, albeit forcibly.

Gen. Dénes

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