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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army at War > Vienna, 30 August 1940 - Award or Diktat ?


Posted by: Dénes July 26, 2004 09:42 pm
QUOTE
QUOTE
Also, \"Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania\" (in Sept. 1940) because of the 2nd Vienna award of August 30, 1940, signed also by Rumania, which stipulated that Northern Transylvania became part of Hungary. Therefore Vice-Admiral Horthy and \"his\" Hungarian troops did not occupy Rumania either.

As usual, you make it seems that Romania agreed with the Vienna Diktat, not it was forced to sign it.

Both Rumania and Hungary had no other choice but to either sign, or refuse the document. Both parties signed it, therefore accepted it.
And I see that you reverted again to the "diktat" form. :roll: I thought we've discussed this in details on another thread and agreed upon the internationally used "award" or "resolution" form. "Diktat" is used exclusively by some Rumanian sources.
BTW, if it was a "diktat", then it was a "diktat" for both Rumania and Hungary, wasn't it? smile.gif

QUOTE
The Soviets did not occupy Bessarabia and N Bukovina either. :roll

:?:

Posted by: dragos July 27, 2004 10:56 am
Regarding the Vienna "arbitration", Marius may find the following pages hosted by the University of Bucharest very useful (only in Romanian):

http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-10.htm

http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-11.htm

http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-12.htm

http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-13.htm

Posted by: dragos July 27, 2004 01:14 pm
It was about the statement "Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania". A topic on this already exist though.

Posted by: Bernard Miclescu July 27, 2004 09:40 pm
QUOTE
 
BTW, if it was a \"diktat\", then it was a \"diktat\" for both Rumania and Hungary, wasn't it?


Well , for the "Diktat" definition i agree withe Denes. A real Diktat, IMO was the Versailles treaty towards Germany. No German delegation was there to sign the Treaty. And BTW i don't remember if any Austro-Hungarian were too.

But like Dragos, my heart (Romanian) considerate the Vienna Treaty like a "Diktat" Romania having the choice of distroing its self as a State or to continue to exist mutilated.

Posted by: dragos July 28, 2004 05:47 am
QUOTE
Well , for the \"Diktat\" definition i agree withe Denes. A real Diktat, IMO was the Versailles treaty towards Germany. No German delegation was there to sign the Treaty. And BTW i don't remember if any Austro-Hungarian were too.


Pentru a evita o astfel de escaladare, Hitler a impus arbitrajul de la Viena, care a fost în realitate un dictat. (Mihail Manoilescu, ministrul de Externe al României nefiind lăsat măcar să facă o declaraţie, după ce fusese comunicată decizia arbitrilor – Ribbentrop şi Ciano – a leşinat).
http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-13.htm

The Romanian foreign minister was not even allowed to make a statement, he was announced the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano.

Posted by: Marius July 28, 2004 10:04 am
QUOTE

At that time, German troops were allies of Rumania, thus were not occupying the country. Also, \"Horty with his hungarian forces entered Transilvania\" (in Sept. 1940) because of the 2nd Vienna award of August 30, 1940, signed also by Rumania, which stipulated that Northern Transylvania became part of Hungary. Therefore Vice-Admiral Horthy and \"his\" Hungarian troops did not occupy Rumania either.
Dénes


I am sorry but it was no award, Mihail Manoilescu was forced to sign the "diktat". He did not even read the lines. http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istorie1918-1940/13-11.htm

Posted by: Dénes July 28, 2004 04:13 pm
It's one thing to be young and inexperienced and another one not to read the given sources properly.

Manoilescu did not read the text because he was ill. Valer Pop read it (aloud) for him, so he knew what he signed:
"În clipa aceea, mi-am pierdut cunoştinţa. (...) Am început să văd din nou şi am avut puterea să duc mai departe calvarul.
Mi s-au prezentat actele spre semnare. (...) Am iscălit tot fără să mai citesc. Valer Pop citea pentru mine."


As for Manoilescu being forced to sign it, the decision to accept the Vienna award was taken by the Crown Council.

By the way, as mentioned in the links given by Dragos, neither parties were satified with the outcome. The Hungarians wanted a min. of 50,000 sq. km and received less, while the Rumanians (who already accepted the handover of approx. 6,000 sq. km) lost more, Therefore if you insist that it was a "dictat" (or "diktat"), then it was the same for both signatory parties.

Dénes

Posted by: Marius July 28, 2004 05:46 pm
That is exactly what i mean it was a dictat for both parts! I read the source properly. Why did he became ill? Isn't it because he saw all the cityes given away. He loocked at Brasov and it was still in Romanian hands... smile.gif

Posted by: Marius July 28, 2004 05:47 pm
I haven't said: "he did not read it at all". I said: "he did not read it" (personaly) Anyway you can not call this an "agreement" because he was forced to sign it!

Posted by: dragos July 28, 2004 06:46 pm
QUOTE
By the way, as mentioned in the links given by Dragos, neither parties were satified with the outcome. The Hungarians wanted a min. of 50,000 sq. km and received less, while the Rumanians (who already accepted the handover of approx. 6,000 sq. km) lost more


Poor Hungarians :cry:

Posted by: Victor July 28, 2004 08:53 pm
The important thing, for Hitler, was none of teh parties was satisfied and thus he had room to manipulate both of them. I think the real winner was Germany.

Posted by: Marius July 29, 2004 09:41 am
QUOTE
The important thing, for Hitler, was none of teh parties was satisfied and thus he had room to manipulate both of them. I think the real winner was Germany.


I agree! :keep:

Posted by: MAB38 November 15, 2004 06:01 pm
Well Romania loses Transylvania and Hungary gets it...looks more like a diktat towards Romania than towards Hungary.
The Hungarians give the Germans a big KOSSONOM and take over a part of Romania without having to fire a single shot!
It was really a terrible diktat for the Magyars :-)




Posted by: Dénes November 15, 2004 08:38 pm
I am not sure if you're serious or only joking.

Nevertheless, just to remind you several issues discussed earlier in the thread:
Hungary did not "get" Transylvania in 1940, only a lesser half (called Northern Transyvania). Rumania kept the larger half (called Southern Transyvania).
If you still insist to call the 2nd Vienna Award a "diktat", then it was a "diktat" equally for Rumania and Hungary alike, as Germany and Italy decided on the partition of Transylvania, without asking the two parties' opinion.
If you intended to write 'thank you' in Hungarian, it's actually köszönöm, not kossonom.

For more details, check the previous posts in this thread.

Col. Dénes

Posted by: dragos November 15, 2004 09:59 pm
According to the meaning of diktat as "a harsh settlement unilaterally imposed (as on a defeated nation)" (source: britannica.com), for Hungary this settlement may have been unilaterally imposed, but not harsh, or Hungary was not the defeated nation in this business.

Posted by: Dénes November 15, 2004 10:14 pm
I have already shown before why "diktat" is not the proper historical word for the Vienna Award of August 1940 (BTW, only certain Rumanian sources use this word, which has a clear political connotation - not a good practice when writing about history, as politics and history should not mix).

As you very well know, Rumania did manage to keep the larger part of Transylvania (despite Hungary's inital request), so it wasn't a defeated party.

As Victor wrote earlier:
QUOTE
The important thing, for Hitler, was none of teh parties was satisfied and thus he had room to manipulate both of them. I think the real winner was Germany.


Col. Dénes

P.S. Why is that we have to return, again and again, to the same topic, already discussed to the bone? sad.gif

Posted by: dragos November 15, 2004 10:23 pm
In conclusion you don't consider the Vienna Diktat for Romania as "a harsh settlement unilaterally imposed".

QUOTE (Denes)
As you very well know, Rumania did manage to keep the larger part of Transylvania (despite Hungary's inital request), so it wasn't a defeated party.


I didn't know that when a country losses land - but not the larger part of a region, and gains nothing, we are not talking of a defeated country. So in your opinion, how much more land had Romania to lose in order to be the defeated party?

Actually, I am not sure if you're serious or only joking.

Posted by: Dénes November 15, 2004 10:25 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 16 2004, 04:23 AM)
So in your opinion, how much more land had Romania to lose in order to be the defeated party?

The whole Transylvania (only a 'what-if' scenario, of course).

Col. Dénes

Posted by: dragos November 16, 2004 10:52 am
The conclusions one can draw from your response is that being forced to cede 103,093 km2 of legitimate territory means defeat, while losing "only" 43,492 km2 is ok.

I say that stealing even one square km is an aggression.

Posted by: Dénes November 16, 2004 03:42 pm
Now you start to sound like one of those regulars on Hungarian extremists sites. ohmy.gif

Nobody stole anything. What sort of historical term is 'stealing land', anyway?

Or, approaching the topic from another angle, was the Quadrilateral (Southern Dobrudja) 'stolen' as well in Sept. 1940 (as the circumastances of the territorial changes were similar to those discussed in this thread)?

As I've pointed out repeatedly on this forum, in my view, the role of a historian (professional and amateur alike), who wants to earn respect, is to be impartial and show the events as they were, turning back into the discussed time period, without using hindsight, no matter if that particular issue is of his/her liking or not.

Personal feelings and history should not mix.

Of course, everyone is entitled to write what he/she wants. It's democracy, after all. However, with a biased approach and choice of words, which fits the person's particular agenda, no-one - except certain special interest individuals and groups - would take him/her seriously.

Col. Dénes

[edited by admin]

Posted by: dragos November 16, 2004 04:33 pm
QUOTE (Denes)
Now you start to sound like one of those regulars on Hungarian extremists sites.


I don't know those forums because I don't visit them. But I don't think I have said anywhere such an enormity like "Rumania did manage to keep the larger part of Transylvania, so it wasn't a defeated party."

QUOTE (Denes)
Nobody stole anything. What sort of historical term is 'stealing land', anyway?


"Diktat" is an historical term, isn't it? But because it does not suit your agenda, it must not be used as having "clear political connotation".

Posted by: Dénes November 16, 2004 04:57 pm
This leads to nowhere.
What I wanted to say I've said.

Let others decide for themselves who's right and who's not.

Col. Dénes

Posted by: dragos March 03, 2005 09:14 pm
QUOTE (Denes)
QUOTE (dragos @ Mar 2 2005 @  05:32 AM)

Now show me one non-Hungarian source that uses the term Trianon Diktat


Your original question was this, not other. I've shown you not one, but several sources using the "Trianon Diktat" in a manner unrelated to Hungary. Faux pas, Dragos.


Ok, you showed me one link (http://www.bruenn.org/de/radnitz1.html) that from what I understand (because I can't read German), uses the term Diktat for Versailles, and maybe somewhere else for Peace Treaty of 1947. I showed you another non-Hungarian article that uses the term diktat for Trianon in quotes.

Now this is a good attitude in your opinion: the Trianon (where the Western Powers tried to put an end to many years of dissent in central Europe and to prevent another war, at least in their intention) is more a "diktat" than Vienna - arbitrated by the peace-loving Hitler and Mussolini, interested in the stability of the region. No comment.

Posted by: Fratello March 04, 2005 12:55 pm
The history is full of paradox
One of the this is Hungary in Wold War II. Hungary ruled by a regent-admiral Horty- hwo didn't have a navy fleet or a sea way, declared war to U.S.A, but Hungary dind't claim somethin from this country; Hungary was claiming from Romania, who was from the same side

These are not my words, and belong to Mr. Mihai Retegan, a romanian historian and also teacher from History University from Bucharest (Universitatea Bucureşti)

Posted by: Iamandi March 04, 2005 02:24 pm
It was a story about the momment when hungarians give to american representant the letter with DoW. A funny one! Like mr. teacher words.

Iama

Posted by: Dénes March 04, 2005 04:00 pm
QUOTE (Fratello @ Mar 4 2005, 06:55 PM)
The history is full of paradox

So correct.

QUOTE
One of the this is Hungary in Wold War II. Hungary ruled by a regent-admiral Horty- hwo didn't have a navy fleet or a sea way, declared war to U.S.A, but Hungary dind't claim somethin from this country; Hungary was claiming from Romania, who was from the same side


It is a paradox only to someone with superficial knowledge of Hungary's history.

Vice-Admiral Horthy, Regent of Hungary, was a legitim navy officer, from the times when Hungary did have access to sea and did have a large seagoing fleet - during the Austro-Hungarian Empire. He was the commander of one of the largest ships of the k.u.k. Kriegsmarine, the SZENT ISTVAN.
During W.W. 2, Hungary did have a sizeable Danube flotilla. Also, there were quite a few Hungarian seagoing ships as well, including on the Black Sea.

Not all declaration of war were for territory claims. For example, Hungary declared war on the Soviet Union on June 27, 1941 even if it did not have any territorial claims against it.

Hungary and Rumania became (uneasy) allies only after the Transylvanian issue was temporarily settled.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Fratello March 05, 2005 06:56 am
QUOTE

It is a paradox only to someone with superficial knowledge of Hungary's history.


...and 30 August 1940 is "award" only to someone with superficial knowledge about Romania's history

Posted by: Fratello March 05, 2005 03:45 pm

Here is a passage from the romanian history magazine "Dosarele Istoriei" about 30 August 1940 moment (I posted in romanian language to be more concise):

"[...] Discuţile cu Ungaria, care a avut loc la Turnu Severin, între 16-15 august, nu au dus la rezultatul pozitiv, deoarece guvernul de la Budapesta pretindea nu mai puţin din două treimi din teritoriul Transilvaniei. În aceste condiţii, la 27 august 1940, Hitler a trasat cu mâna sa noua graniţă între România şi Ungaria, care a fost comunicată celor două părţi de miniştri de Externe ai Germaniei şi Italiei, la Viena, la 30 august.
Consiliul de coroană, întrunit de două ori - în noaptea de 29/30 august şi în cea de 30/31 august - a acceptat "arbitrajul Axei", precum şi verdictul acesteia. Dar de această dată, populaţia a ieşit în stradă pentru a protesta împotriva Dicatului de la Viena [...]" ("Situaţia internaţională a României în anii celui de-al doilea război mondial" by Ioan Scurtu* in DOSARELE ISTORIEI, nr. 7(59)/2001, pag 5.)

Mr. Ioan Scurtu* is master in history, university teacher to Bucharest University and headmaster of "N. Iorga" History Insitute

Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2005 04:31 pm
The excerpt you posted is historically correct, but it's incomplete.

It does not include a couple of crucial facts.
First, it does not mention that Rumania was ready to cede about 6000 sq. km of Western Transylvania, proposing a complete, simultaneous population exchange. This could not be accepted by the Hungarian party.

Second, after the talks at Turnu Severin broke down, the Hungarian Army mobilized and prepared to attack Rumania. Rumania apparently wanted to avoid an open war, fearing that Germany and perhaps Italy might intervene. The Soviet Union could also intervene in this situation.

In the meantime, both Rumania and Hungary asked Germany and Italy for an arbitration in this thorny topic, woving to accept the results a priori .

I seriously doubt that Hitler traced the new borders with his own hands. There were specialists who could do it. Also, Italy had an equal part in the arbitration, which is often conveniently overviewed. Hitler and Mussolini were not present. Instead, the foreign ministers represented their countries at Vienna.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. As for your previous comment "and 30 August 1940 is "award" only to someone with superficial knowledge about Romania's history" is only your opinion, of course. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. biggrin.gif

Posted by: dragos March 05, 2005 05:53 pm
QUOTE
Rumania apparently wanted to avoid an open war, fearing that Germany and perhaps Italy might intervene. The Soviet Union could also intervene in this situation.


This was the main reason for accepting the diktat. Not because Hungarian army started mobilization biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2005 06:25 pm
Dragos, I won't repeat myself. See my previous post:
QUOTE
I am growing tired to discuss this issue over and over again.
Everyone is entitled to use whatever term he/she like, even 'dikkktat' if one wishes. The fact is, that particular person's credibility is diminished by the usage of such historically inproper (but politically fitting) terms.


Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos March 05, 2005 06:28 pm
I know Denes, but as everyone can see, I'm not the one concerned about the credibility issue...

Posted by: Fratello March 05, 2005 06:52 pm

Here is another passage about 30 August 1940 moment from the book "O istorie
sinceră a poporului român" written by another romanian historian, Florin Constantiniu (I posted in romanian language to be also more concise):

"[...]
Sub presiunea germană, la Turnu Severin au avut loc discuţii româno-ungare care au eşuat. Delegaţia ungară a pretins 69.000 kmp., cu 3.9 milioane locuitori (dintre care 2,2 milioane români). Teritoriul revendicat cuprindea spaţiul transilvan de la nord de Mureş, trecând Ungariei Aradul, Alba Iulia şi Braşovul, dar lasând României Blajul, Meduaşul şi Sighişoara. Delegaţia română s-a plasat pe poziţia schimbului de populaţiei cu rectificări minore de frontieră, ca urmare a sporului de populaţie al Ungariei.
Eşecul negocierilor de la Turnu Severin părea să mute disputa româno-ungară de la masa tratativelor pe câmpul de luptă. Pentru a evita o astfel de escaladare, Hitler a impus arbitrajul de la Viena, care a fost ÎN FAPT UN DICTAT (Mihai Manoilescu, ministrul de Externe al României NEFIIND LĂSAT MĂCAR SĂ FACĂ O DECLARAŢIE, după ce fusese comunicată decizia arbitrilor - Ribbentrop şi Ciano - a leşinat). România pierdea un teritoriul de 43.492 kmp., cu 2.667.007 locuitori, majoritatea (50,1%) fiind români. Este de remarcat cî intinderea teritoriului anexat de Ungaria se afla sub limita programului minimal ungar, printre care şi prim-ministru, Pal Teleki, întors de la Viena, "zdrobit sufleteşte", cum ]l descrie ministrul Învîţământului, istoricul Balint Homan.
La Bucureşti, Consilul de Coroană, considerând că avea de ales ,,între salvarea fiinţei politice a statului nostru şi posibilitatea dispariţiei lui" a hotârât cu 19 voturi pentru, 10 contra şi o abţinere acceptarea deciziei de la Viena.
[...]"
(Florin Constantiniu, "O istorie sinceră a poporului român",Ed. Univers Enciclopedic, Bucureşti, 1999, pag. 352-353)

QUOTE

P.S. As for your previous comment "and 30 August 1940 is "award" only to someone with superficial knowledge about Romania's history" is only your opinion, of course. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. 


P.S. Mr. Deneş, with all my respect, what do you want to prove with the fact that Vienna 30 august 1940 was a "award" not a diktat. You can see very clearly that all romanian historian (even I quoted here only two of them...if you want I can quote from another historian) consider that Vienna, 30 august 1940 was a DIKTAT, because it was imposed by Hitler, Romania lossing a part from Transylvania to Hungary's side.
And BTW again with all my respect , Mr. Deneş, you are a hungarian (even you had born here in Romania) and you see the situation from Hungary's advantage (so you can't be impartial). For Romania Vienna, 30 august 1940, was a DIKTAT.

Fratello


Posted by: dragos03 March 05, 2005 10:41 pm
So Denes, are you saying that the Romanian leaders were afraid of the "might" of the Hungarian army? That's ridiculous. Without allies, Hungary would have been defeated quickly, like in 1919.
The border change with population exchange and compensations for the displaced population would have been the best option, ending most of the problems between the two countries. Look how a similar solution solved most of the issues between Romania and Bulgaria.


Posted by: Dénes March 06, 2005 04:38 am
Of course, in 1940 the Hungarian Army was weaker than the Rumanian one. The main reason for that is that Hungary was allowed to openly arm only from Sept. 1938 on, when the Bled Agreement took effect.

The key here was, as you rightly pointed out, the alliances. Italy was firmly on the side of Hungary, with Germany more like neutral, slightly leaning towards Rumania, for economical reasons. And let's not forget the wild card, the Soviet Union. Therefore it's uncertain how an open Rumanian-Hungarian war in 1940 would have ended.

The comparison with 1918/1919 is improper, in my view, as back then Hungary crumbled from inside, also being attacked from three directions: south, east and north. Defeat for Hungary left without alliances was inevitable.

The problem with a population exchange, as you put it, is how far the Hungarian-Rumanian border should have been pushed to east into Transylvania, so a certain number of ethnic Hungarians could have been exchanged with a similar number of ethnic Rumanians.

Moreover, how would one deal with the approach of persons like your name sake, Dragos, had earlier:
QUOTE
I say that stealing even one square km is an aggression.
?

Let me note, Dragos03, that all these scenarios are 'what-ifs' only. History is an exact science and is not defined by such alternative versions.
It happened the way we know it, because otherwise simply it could have not happened...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Fratello March 06, 2005 09:12 am

Here is anothe passage from "Istoria Românilor în secolul XX" (by Ioan Scurtu and Gheorghe Buzatu) about Vienna 30 August 1940 moment registred by the newspapares from another countries (posted in romanian laguage like the original text from the qouted book):

"[...]
Dictatul de la Viena a fost condamnat de opinia publică internaţională. Astfel Agenţia "Reuter" califica dictatul de la Viena ca o nouă şi uriaşă înşelăciune nazistă şi arăta că cea dintâi reacţie a opiniei bublice faţă de capitulare a fost stupefacţia generală pentru felul cum a fost prădată România. Cunoscutul cotidian "New York Herald Tribune" aprecia că in acele zile:,,Dicatele impuse de dictatori au avut întotdeuna soarta făuritorilor lor. Nimic nu se poate clădi într-adevăr pe violenţă, după cun nimic nu se poate clădi pe nisip: nici dictaturi şi nici dictate"
Ziarul turc "Yeni Sabah", după ce relata împrejurările în care s-a produs dictatul de la Viena, conchidea:,,Este de datoria noastră de a exprima prietenilor noştri români regretul şi simpatia noastră pentru tratamentul neuman la care au fost supuşi. Înţelegem că în aceste clipe dureroase întreaga naţiune este cufundată în doliu adânc. Dar amicii noştri români, care sunt curajoşi, tenaci şi harnici, vor găsi în nenorocirea lor o nouă forţă şi vor munci cu solidaritatea mărită. Ei vor păstra, fără nici o îndoială, locul importamt ce-l ocupă în Balcani"
"Gazette de Lausanne", unul dintre cele mai cunoscute ziare elveţiene, scria că România a fost lovită în mod crunt prin sentinţa de la Viena, avându-se în vedere, în primul rând, câ ,,în ansamblul Transilvaniei elementul românesc constituie majoritatea populaţiei"
Premierul engley W. Churchill declara în Camera Comunelor, la 5 septembrie 1940:,,România a suferit o severă mutilare teritorială. Nu avem de gând să recunoaştem vreuna din schimbările teritoriale ce se fac în timpul războiului, afară de acelea ce s-ar produce ce liberul consinţământ şi cu bună voinţa părţilor interesate". La rândul său, lordul Halifax, liderul diplomaţiei britanice, declara că guvernul englez ,,nu recunoaşte nici o cesiune de teritorii făcute sub presiunea şi în special nu recunoşate arbitrajul de la Viena"
[...]"
(Ioan Scurtu, Gherghe Buzatu, Gheorge Buzatu, "Istoria Românilor în secolul XX", Ed. Paideia, Bucureşti, 1999, pag. 384)

P.S. So, you can see very clearly that not only Romania cosidered that Vienna 30 August 1940 was a diktat.

and from the same book anothe passage about 1918-1919 moment when Romanian Army conquered Budepesta (also in romanian laguage):

"[...]
Vii discuţii a suscitat proiectul tratatului de pace cu Ungaria cu Ungaria, deorece delegaţia maghiară, precum şi unele cercuri politice şi financiare din Marea Britanie, Franţa, Italia şi din alte ţări se pronunţau împotriva destrămării Ungariei "milenare". Pe de altă parte, delegaţia română, susţinută de numeroşi lideri politici, a demonstrat, pe bază de date concrete, faptul că Transilvania este un străvechi teritoriul românesc, că populaţia acesteia şi-a exprimat în cadrul Adunării Naţionale de la Alba Iulia din 1 decembrie 1918 hotărărea de a se uni cu România.
Guvernul comunist de la Budeapesta - acţionând în comun acord cu cel bolşevic de la Moscova - a refuzat şă-şi retragă trupele din Transilvania şi a atacat armata română, aflată în Munţii Apuseni. În urma unor lupte grele (16-18 aprilie) atacul a fost respins; a urmat un nou taca ungur, la mijlocul lunii iulie; de această dată armata română a declanşat o contaraofensivă de amploare, ocupând Budapesta la 4 august. După restabilirea ordinii, trupele române s-au retras în limitele teritoriului naţional (martie 1920). În ziua de 4 iunie 1920, a fost semnat la Trianon trtatul de pace cu Ungaria, prin care se recunoştea unirea Transilvaniei cu România [...]"
(Ibidem, pag. 10-11)

QUOTE

So Denes, are you saying that the Romanian leaders were afraid of the "might" of the Hungarian army? That's ridiculous. Without allies, Hungary would have been defeated quickly, like in 1919


I have same opinion. Romanian leaders were afraid the avoid a war with Germany and Italy, not with Hungary (Hungary was used by internatinal contex )

Posted by: dragos March 06, 2005 09:59 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Mar 6 2005, 07:38 AM)
Moreover, how would one deal with the approach of persons like your name sake, Dragos, had earlier:
QUOTE
I say that stealing even one square km is an aggression.
?

It is part of the series of aggressions started by Germany before the outbreak of WW2, aggressions because they are violation of the treaties and conventions signed after WW1.

Posted by: dragos March 06, 2005 10:29 am
QUOTE (Fratello @ Mar 6 2005, 12:12 PM)
"[...]
Dictatul de la Viena a fost condamnat de opinia publică internaţională. Astfel Agenţia "Reuter" califica dictatul de la Viena ca o nouă şi uriaşă înşelăciune nazistă şi arăta că cea dintâi reacţie a opiniei bublice faţă de capitulare a fost stupefacţia generală pentru felul cum a fost prădată România. Cunoscutul cotidian "New York Herald Tribune" aprecia că in acele zile:,,Dicatele impuse de dictatori au avut întotdeuna soarta făuritorilor lor. Nimic nu se poate clădi într-adevăr pe violenţă, după cun nimic nu se poate clădi pe nisip: nici dictaturi şi nici dictate"
Ziarul turc "Yeni Sabah", după ce relata împrejurările în care s-a produs dictatul de la Viena, conchidea:,,Este de datoria noastră de a exprima prietenilor noştri români regretul şi simpatia noastră pentru tratamentul neuman la care au fost supuşi. Înţelegem că în aceste clipe dureroase întreaga naţiune este cufundată în doliu adânc. Dar amicii noştri români, care sunt curajoşi, tenaci şi harnici, vor găsi în nenorocirea lor o nouă forţă şi vor munci cu solidaritatea mărită. Ei vor păstra, fără nici o îndoială, locul importamt ce-l ocupă în Balcani"
"Gazette de Lausanne", unul dintre cele mai cunoscute ziare elveţiene, scria că România a fost lovită în mod crunt prin sentinţa de la Viena, avându-se în vedere, în primul rând, câ ,,în ansamblul Transilvaniei elementul românesc constituie majoritatea populaţiei"
Premierul engley W. Churchill declara în Camera Comunelor, la 5 septembrie 1940:,,România a suferit o severă mutilare teritorială. Nu avem de gând să recunoaştem vreuna din schimbările teritoriale ce se fac în timpul războiului, afară de acelea ce s-ar produce ce liberul consinţământ şi cu bună voinţa părţilor interesate". La rândul său, lordul Halifax, liderul diplomaţiei britanice, declara că guvernul englez ,,nu recunoaşte nici o cesiune de teritorii făcute sub presiunea şi în special nu recunoşate arbitrajul de la Viena"
[...]"
(Ioan Scurtu, Gherghe Buzatu, Gheorge Buzatu, "Istoria Românilor în secolul XX", Ed. Paideia, Bucureşti, 1999, pag. 384)

P.S. So, you can see very clearly that not only Romania cosidered that Vienna 30 August 1940 was a diktat.

Translation:

The Vienna Dictate was condemned by the international public opinion. “Reuter” press agency qualified the Vienna Dictate as a “new and huge Nazi trickery” and showed that the first public opinion’s reaction was the general stupefaction for the way Romania was plundered. The “Herald Tribune” daily newspaper stated that: “The dictates imposed by dictators had always the fate of their doers. Nothing can be built on the ground of violence, as nothing can be built on sand: neither dictatures nor dictates”.
The Turkish newspaper “Yeni Sabah”, after relating the circumstances of the Vienna Dictate, was concluding: “It is our duty to express our regrets and sympathy to our Romanian friends, for the inhuman treatment they had to endure. We understand that in these painful moments the whole nation is wearing the weed. But our Romanian friends, that are brave, tenacious and hard working, will find in their tragedy a new force and they will work in higher solidarity. They undoubtedly will keep their important role in Balkans.
“Gazette de Lausane”, one of the most known Swiss newspapers, read that Romania was hit hard by the sentece of Vienna, considering that, in the first place, “in Transylvania ensemble, the Romanian element constitutes the majority of population”.
The British prime minister W. Churchill declared in the House of Commons, on 5 September 1940: “Romania suffered a severe territorial mutilation. We have no intention to ratify any of the territorial changes during the war, excepting the ones made with the free will and consent of the involved parts.” Also, Lord Halifax, the leader of the British diplomacy, declared that the British government “does not ratify any territorial ceding under pressure, and does not ratify the Vienna Dictate”.

Posted by: Barbosu March 06, 2005 10:47 am
IMO a discussion of what the arbitration from Vienna should be named is only the top of the iceberg in an issue that might not be ever accepted by the Hungary part.

Nobody, at least on this topic, said anything about why Hungary should have any part of Transilvania? (the iceberg I mentioned).

Attenion: thin ice.

For now I would point that I don't understand what means that Romania would have dissapear if the arbitration was rejected by the Crown Council.

What if Romania rejected the treaty?
What Hitler would do, thinking of Romanian oil and army? The Hungarian ally was more important? Italy could be convinced not to interfere?

So as the topic goes one could think: Hungary was one of the great powers (?!)determined to get Transilvania and would not accept anything else and everybody should listen. No way.

It would start a war with Romania.
OK, so what? Romania was interested in defending it's land and would have defeat the Hungarian Army. Hitler would not have his oil nor Romanian Army support.
Maybe Germany would have conquered Romania. Maybe it would be better for us, at the end of the war. Maybe we could set on fire all Ploiesti fields and Hitler wouldn't have the oil anyway.

IMO, Romania should have refuse the "diktat" and play hard balls.

Denes, I am very curious to find out how a "maghiar" see the Greater Hungary and how he motivate the right to regain any land. What are the territories that Hungary considers it is intitled to get them back?

Barbosu


Posted by: Fratello March 06, 2005 10:51 am
QUOTE

Translation:

The Vienna Dictate was condemned by the international public opinion. “Reuter” press agency qualified the Vienna Dictate as a “new and huge Nazi trickery” and showed that the first public opinion’s reaction was the general stupefaction for the way Romania was plundered. The “Herald Tribune” daily newspaper stated that: “The dictates imposed by dictators had always the fate of their doers. Nothing can be built on the ground of violence, as nothing can be built on sand: neither dictatures nor dictates”.
The Turkish newspaper “Yeni Sabah”, after relating the circumstances of the Vienna Dictate, was concluding: “It is our duty to express our regrets and sympathy to our Romanian friends, for the inhuman treatment they had to endure. We understand that in these painful moments the whole nation is wearing the weed. But our Romanian friends, that are brave, tenacious and hard working, will find in their tragedy a new force and they will work in higher solidarity. They undoubtedly will keep their important role in Balkans.
“Gazette de Lausane”, one of the most known Swiss newspapers, read that Romania was hit hard by the sentece of Vienna, considering that, in the first place, “in Transylvania ensemble, the Romanian element constitutes the majority of population”.
The British prime minister W. Churchill declared in the House of Commons, on 5 September 1940: “Romania suffered a severe territorial mutilation. We have no intention to ratify any of the territorial changes during the war, excepting the ones made with the free will and consent of the involved parts.” Also, Lord Halifax, the leader of the British diplomacy, declared that the British government “does not ratify any territorial ceding under pressure, and does not ratify the Vienna Dictate”.


Many thanks to you, Dragoş, for english translation

Fratello

Posted by: 109 March 06, 2005 11:29 am
You've really outdone yourself this time Mr.Denes,
coming here with this topic is like going to an Israeli history forum and trying to
deny the Holocaust.
I, myself at least half hungarian, and at least two friends of mine of the
same ethnical background, see these facts as history and i see no point trying
to convince a dozen people on this forum that they are all wrong while you alone are right...
The true paradox is that while you try your best to be "more catholic than the Pope" and fight for a cause that real Hungarian (and indeed most of the world) don't care much any longer (see the results of the polls in Hungary)
you will never be more than a Romanian-Hungarian, never a real one...

If you think that i cant't back my words, i can produce many quotes from your books that contradict your so called objectivity , i'm just not in the mood to read them again...


Over 'n' out!

Posted by: Dénes March 06, 2005 02:42 pm
Mr. Eduard Badescu (a.k.a. '109'). This is not the first time you resort to personal attack against me on various internet forums.
From now on please refrain maliciously commenting anything regarding my person and mind your own business, would you?

Or in Rumanian, for clearer understanding: D-le Badescu, incetati atacul personal impotriva mea si vede-ti va de treaba.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos March 06, 2005 04:26 pm
To 109 and to everybody posting in this thread: resume the subject of the topic.

Posted by: dragos03 March 06, 2005 05:19 pm
If Romania rejected the Vienna Diktat, it would have had the same fate as Yugoslavia: attacked from all sides and divided between greedy neighbours. Or perhaps the fate of Poland: divided between USSR and Germany/other Axis states.
Until the defeat of France, Romania could reject any Diktat. After that, all of Europe was at the mercy of Germany.
As for the population exchange, i think that Hungary could get Crisana from the border to the mountains.
The comparison with the 1919 campaign is fair in my opinion. Hungary crumbled from inside only after its army was crushed on the battlefield by Romania. Hungary was indeed surrounded by enemies but at the time of the Tisa battle only this front was active. Romania had a much larger army but only a part was sent on the Hungarian front. The Hungarians even had advantage in numbers but they were quickly defeated.

Posted by: Imperialist March 06, 2005 09:42 pm
QUOTE
Until the defeat of France, Romania could reject any Diktat. After that, all of Europe was at the mercy of Germany.


First was the betrayal of Czechoslovakia. Next followed the crushing of Poland. The French response? The funny war. France was the main pillar around which the net of alliances was formed in the East. The main blow was not her conquest but her lack of action to honour those commitments. The domino effect did the rest.

QUOTE
If Romania rejected the Vienna Diktat, it would have had the same fate as Yugoslavia: attacked from all sides and divided between greedy neighbours.


I think its false. If Romania would have stood her ground, Yugoslavia would not have been so easily invaded later, and moreover the Romanian example might have made the serbs realise that their turn was next if they stood on the sidelines.
The Yugoslav example is rather a later consequence of/facilitated by the Romanian decision, therefore it cannot be applied retroactively to justify the latter!!!

But whatever the 'what ifs', resisting and fighting for that land was the most decent and the most normal thing to do. Because the present discussion of award vs. diktat would have never existed if the Romanian resistance would have proven for history that it was an act imposed by force upon an unwilling state/leadership and a resisting population, and therefore, a DIKTAT.
Because that did no happen, I totally agree with Mr. Denes, it wasnt a Diktat!!

The Romanian leadership's disastrous decision will testify that for years to come, and it should remind every generation that it has to be careful how it acts, it has tremendous responsibilities.

take care

Posted by: Chandernagore March 06, 2005 10:22 pm
QUOTE
Next followed the crushing of Poland. The French response? The funny war. France was the main pillar around which the net of alliances was formed in the East. The main blow was not her conquest but her lack of action to honour those commitments. The domino effect did the rest.


The assumption being that if France had taken the offensive in Rhineland during Poland's invasion things would have been dramatically different. Given the state of France armies at the time, I think the forces left by Germany to guard the borders were adequate to manage at least a one month stalemate, more than enough to finish off Poland and turn back with a vengeance. I think that such an offensive, while creating a temporary crisis, would only have precipitated France downfall yet faster if possible. France was not even in a state to defend herself against a more advanced doctrine, not to mention mounting a hasty offensive with inadequate composition of forces. France was doomed. It had neither the time (granted to the British) nor the operational depht (enjoyed by the Soviet Union) to learn and adapt.

Posted by: Imperialist March 06, 2005 11:52 pm
QUOTE
Given the state of France armies at the time, I think the forces left by Germany to guard the borders were adequate to manage at least a one month stalemate, more than enough to finish off Poland and turn back with a vengeance. I think that such an offensive, while creating a temporary crisis, would only have precipitated France downfall yet faster if possible.


From my info the Germans had only 25-30 divisions in the West during the Polish Campaign, and the West Wall. The French 4th Army tried to attack the wall but failed. I have no info about the attack itself, but I believe it wasnt a very convincing effort. Nevertheless the Allies had around 110 divisions.
Jacques de Launay quotes Jodl as saying they had a munition shortage after the Polish Campaign, which could be accurate given that Germany was hardly on full war production! The preparation for the French campaign lasted more than 5 months.
Compare it with the periods needed by the US today to replenish its stocks of smart bombs in preparation of new campaigns.
I think the attack against France would have been successfuly preempted and delayed. Maybe the outcome would have been the same, but then again...

I agree that France had fewer tanks and airplanes and they used them badly.
But on top of that they made lots of diplomatic mistakes before the war. Overstretch. Too many commitments with not enough capabilities in too many corners of Europe.


Posted by: dragos03 March 07, 2005 06:27 am
The French army was very weak indeed but the Germans weren't fully aware of that. And as long as France was still intact, Hitler wouldn't have deployed his army in the east only to satisfy Hungary. Poland and Czechoslovakia were a different story, as Germany itself had territorial claims on these countries.

Posted by: dragos March 07, 2005 08:18 am
QUOTE (Imperialist)
First was the betrayal of Czechoslovakia. Next followed the crushing of Poland. The French response? The funny war.


I think you mean "the phony war", not funny war biggrin.gif

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 09:19 am
QUOTE
I think you mean "the phony war", not funny war


Exactly. Sorry for that, I always mix those up... biggrin.gif

Posted by: Fratello March 07, 2005 01:41 pm
QUOTE

I think its false. If Romania would have stood her ground, Yugoslavia would not have been so easily invaded later, and moreover the Romanian example might have made the serbs realise that their turn was next if they stood on the sidelines.
The Yugoslav example is rather a later consequence of/facilitated by the Romanian decision, therefore it cannot be applied retroactively to justify the latter!!!

But whatever the 'what ifs', resisting and fighting for that land was the most decent and the most normal thing to do. Because the present discussion of award vs. diktat would have never existed if the Romanian resistance would have proven for history that it was an act imposed by force upon an unwilling state/leadership and a resisting population, and therefore, a DIKTAT.
Because that did no happen, I totally agree with Mr. Denes, it wasnt a Diktat!!

The Romanian leadership's disastrous decision will testify that for years to come, and it should remind every generation that it has to be careful how it acts, it has tremendous responsibilities.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on Mar 6 2005, 09:44 PM


Mr Imperalist like your name you have an "imperialist opinion". It is very easy to judge now. I ask you what have you done if you was in Romanian leadership' stead at that time?

Fratello

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 02:37 pm
QUOTE
Mr Imperalist like your name you have an "imperialist opinion". It is very easy to judge now. I ask you what have you done if you was in Romanian leadership' stead at that time?


Imperialist is not my name.
Saying that people should have fought for their land is an imperialist attitude? Wow! biggrin.gif
You ask me what was do be done? How can you ask me such a thing? Its like saying, 'well, Romania is whole today but you know, if bad days come, we will debate the issue and see what province we can give up so as not to be the underdog in a fight. we fight only when we can win, the rest of the time we debate and we give up' wink.gif
Any sane person would have told you then and now that fighting was the right thing to do. The rest is philosophical debate. Oh, but the russians surely would have crushed us, the germans, the bulgarians, even the carthaginians....
Those are excuses. How can a people search for excuses for forfeiting their land without even trying to defend it? mad.gif

Sorry if my tone sounds aggressive, its directed against the 'politicians' of the '30s, not against you.

QUOTE
It is very easy to judge now.


So I guess people in the '30s loved their country less than people do now? How can a judgment regarding the integrity of the country change with time? Or they did not have all the data we have? What more data did they need? They wanted to see the maps and debate whether they were redrawn correctly?


take care

Posted by: Fratello March 07, 2005 06:16 pm
QUOTE



Imperialist is not my name.
Saying that people should have fought for their land is an imperialist attitude? Wow! 
You ask me what was do be done? How can you ask me such a thing? Its like saying, 'well, Romania is whole today but you know, if bad days come, we will debate the issue and see what province we can give up so as not to be the underdog in a fight. we fight only when we can win, the rest of the time we debate and we give up' 
Any sane person would have told you then and now that fighting was the right thing to do. The rest is philosophical debate. Oh, but the russians surely would have crushed us, the germans, the bulgarians, even the carthaginians....
Those are excuses. How can a people search for excuses for forfeiting their land without even trying to defend it? 

Sorry if my tone sounds aggressive, its directed against the 'politicians' of the '30s, not against you.



Mr. Imperialist (sorry, this is your nickname not name)
First I said that you have an "imperialist attitude" because you encouraje Mr Denes in his "ideea" about 30 August 1940 "award". Really I don't know what was Mr. Denes concerned about when he started tis topic, Romania or Hungary?
Here is about international policy games not fighting. So, first you have to know the international political context, than draw conclusions.
To fight at that stage would have been madness. Romania would have ended up like poland: devastated and with casualites in the range of houndred of thousands or milions even...probably fore some of os here this would have suited just fine...

Fratello

Posted by: 109 March 07, 2005 06:31 pm
This is childish!

Which one of you (except Denes, of course wink.gif ) would like to have the responsability of the Romanian leaders in 1940.... to sign with your own hands the death-sentence of hundred of thousands of Romanians?
Now it's easy to play Pazer General type of games and all sorts of what-if scenarios, but please consider that many of us wouldn'd have been here debating this, as many Polish,Yugoslav and Finnish found out...Romanians , while servile and duplicitary, are smart people, remember the saying "Capul ce se pleaca sabia nu-l taie"( something like the bowed head is spared) and indeed history showed that after all we went out of the WWII RELATIVELY well , considering the alternatives...What you seem to forget is that other PROUD (Poland and Finnland for example ) countries that didn't bow their head still lost many many more people and lands.
Saving lives is the most important task for a leader, think that any person killed could have been your grandfather...
So i think that what the Romanian government did , while perhaps perfidious and cowardice, the only viable option. Scopul scuza mijloacele.

Posted by: Barbosu March 07, 2005 07:43 pm
The history - as Denes pointed - is somehow an science of precision, if only thinking of a simple timeline, pointing facts and that's all.

IMO we talk here also of a history of politics in the countries mentioned, Europe and world in general.

Why can't I comment the deeds of romanian leaders of those times? This means I should not comment any other decisions of any other leaders, including Ceausescu, Stalin, Hitler and so on. And they were deadly wrong!!

We all are FREE TO COMMENT or go home, shut our mouths and accept anything will happen.

Don't call names one to each other. For my part, as, I think, any of you, I will try to find out what you think behind the lingvistic and technical term of diktat or Award.

Even if I am Romanian and I like to "comment" a lot I think the "diktat/award" issue is FALSE because:

1. Tehnically IT IS AN AWARD because Romania through it's leaders and representatives signed and accepted an arbitration. Other aspects like our representative didn't have the opportunity to speak (the Hungarian representative spoke?) or he couldn't read the text because he was ill are details of less importance.

2. Morally IT IS A DIKTAT because Romania had no allies in that moment and Germany and Italy impossed this solution: ROMANIA LOOSES TERITORY and HUNGARY GAINS TERITORY

Who had the right to do this or that is another discussion.

Cheers,

Barbosu

Posted by: dragos March 07, 2005 08:00 pm
QUOTE (Barbosu)
1. Tehnically IT IS AN AWARD


Even technically it's debatable, since the treaty was not internationally ratified (the Allies and the Soviet Union never ratified this act).

Posted by: Dénes March 07, 2005 08:48 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Mar 8 2005, 02:00 AM)
QUOTE (Barbosu)
1. Tehnically IT IS AN AWARD


Even technically it's debatable, since the treaty was not internationally ratified (the Allies and the Soviet Union never ratified this act).

What do you mean by "internationally"? sad.gif

The Vienna Resolution needed the ratification of only the four directly involved countries, namely Italy, Germany, Rumania and Hungary. To my knowledge, all these countries ratified the treaty, so it became legal.
Therefore Barbosu's note is correct.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 09:25 pm
QUOTE
Here is about international policy games not fighting. So, first you have to know the international political context, than draw conclusions.
To fight at that stage would have been madness. Romania would have ended up like poland: devastated and with casualites in the range of houndred of thousands or milions even...probably fore some of os here this would have suited just fine...


At that time the international policy games were all over. It was war, fighting and resistance. See, one cannot ignore the fact that something very suspect occurred at that time. The British had their "we will fight them on the beaches", the French had their Resistance (yes, later on, but nevertheless). And Romania? No "we will fight them in the 'mountains' ", no sabotages, no whatever... Why? I think because the government presented it as a diplomatic agreement, albeit an unfavourable one or one signed under pressure. The gov did not animate the masses with patriotism etc., it kept its "business as usual" attitude.

Secondly, we must see that Poland and France fought to the death because they were faced with total conquest and "regime change".
In Romania the regime was asked to hand over a piece of territory and it would have been spared. The regime also knew that resisting would have meant war and possible "regime change". I wonder if there wasnt a small element of selfishness involved in the decision too... Ofcourse the decision caused the internal weakening of the regime, but I bet Carol thought he can handle the romanians better than the German Panzers. Lets not forget Carol was a dictator afterall... !

Thirdly, your argument that a lot of people would have died is, sorry to say, irrelevant. In Romanian history there are hundreds of instances where men died heroically and defended their country. Suddenly in the '30s the politicians are worried about casualties so much that they forfeit territory won with the blood of hundreds of thousands in WWI!!!
What about THOSE casualties? Following that trail of thought in 1916 Romania was obviously insane to risk hundreds of thousands of deaths for... "a piece of land".
Lets not confuse political cowardice with "international policy games/diplomatic skills etc."
For me the regime of Carol will always stand out in infamy in Romanian history for that decision. Sorry for being so blunt.

smile.gif

p.s. imagine that today a similar situation would occur. the government takes the decision to allow the 'regionalisation' in Harcov, and it will mumble something about international pressure, US, EU etc. what would you do? would you want to fight (whatever that would be, the moderators should not interpret it as incitement) or accept it and let future generation to vehemently say it was a Diktat? Or, knowing all odds are against you, you would anyhow fight for history, both future and past and for dignity?

take care

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 09:35 pm
QUOTE
QUOTE (dragos @ Mar 8 2005, 02:00 AM)
QUOTE (Barbosu)
1. Tehnically IT IS AN AWARD


Even technically it's debatable, since the treaty was not internationally ratified (the Allies and the Soviet Union never ratified this act).

What do you mean by "internationally"? sad.gif

The Vienna Resolution needed the ratification of only the four directly involved countries, namely Italy, Germany, Rumania and Hungary. To my knowledge, all these countries ratified the treaty, so it became legal.
Therefore Barbosu's note is correct.

Gen. Dénes


You're right Denes, but only for the period before the Axis Powers collapsed.
Germany had no international authority to arbiter a conflict between Hungary and Romania, nor did it have the necessary objectivity.
Therefore, the Award was valid as long as the arbiter nation (Germany) maintained its authority based on force (not on international law), and it was valid only between the signing parties, not having world-wide recognition.
Naturally, after the defeat of Germany, the Allies felt free to revert the effects of the Award and reject it as having no international law validity.

I agree it was an Award, but it has no international law value today.

Posted by: Dénes March 07, 2005 10:07 pm
I mentioned several times on this forum that one of the most common errors someone studying history can commit is to use hindsight.
When one studies a particular historical event, he/she should take into consideration the realities of those times and not regard that particular event in the light of those many-many years have passed since. The historian can/should comment on those historical events, but cannot/should not change/twist them to fit the current ideology.
Unfortunately, few people actually listened to this. Some, but commendably not all, see in this very topic something evil, or a hidden agenda. I can assure them, there is none, they can relax. It's only history we are talking about, not politics.

I also understand that to some this is the first time they see the topic put in another light, instead of the version published and taught in Rumania for many years about the "odious diktat", etc., repeated over and over again, starting with the Communist times. Therefore, they are suspicious and even hostile to any approaches different they are used to, including what I try to show here - which mind you is not a carbon copy of the version given by the Hungarian historiography.

At the time when the Vienna Resolution/Arbitration was signed in 1940 and ratified by all pertinent parties, it was legal. One can/should explain the particular circumstances surrounding the signing of the treaty, but that does not change the historical fact.
The fact that those parties lost the war and thus ALL treaties were annuled is another matter (one interesting exception is the treaty between Bulgaria and Rumania - two Axis powers - for the Quadrilateral, or Southern Dobrudja, which remained valid even after the war).

Finally, a correction. The Vienna Resolution/Arbitration was done by two parties, Germany and Italy, not Germany alone. And, Mr. Imperialist, why would you think Germany - at that time - had no international authority to arbiter a conflict between Hungary and Rumania? Germany was the relevant power in Europe of those days (alongside the expanding Soviet Union). Moreover, it was Hungary and Rumania who asked Germany (and Italy) to issue a binding arbitration of the issue, which they would accept a priori...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 10:13 pm
QUOTE
Which one of you (except Denes, of course wink.gif ) would like to have the responsability of the Romanian leaders in 1940.... to sign with your own hands the death-sentence of hundred of thousands of Romanians?


If a leader worries too much about this and has such an apocaliptic vision of things (death sentence of hundreds of thousands) he remains paralised and inefficient. And therefore, not a leader.

QUOTE
Now it's easy to play Pazer General type of games and all sorts of what-if scenarios, but please consider that many of us wouldn'd have been here debating this, as many Polish,Yugoslav and Finnish found out...


Indeed, nobody wanted to die for his country. Obviously games make people think silly (imagine, fighting blindly for your country while the whole world is against you -- talk about childish gamers! laugh.gif ) while cafes, debates and the sweet life of the '30s made people understand the important value of saving one's skin whatever the costs and humiliations.

QUOTE
What you seem to forget is that other PROUD (Poland and Finnland for example ) countries that didn't bow their head still lost many many more people and lands.


Indeed, it feels great to live in a country were national pride is an unknown word and where such beautifully educational proverbs flourish in an atmosphere of bohemian decadence. sad.gif

QUOTE
Saving lives is the most important task for a leader, think that any person killed could have been your grandfather...
So i think that what the Romanian government did , while perhaps perfidious and cowardice, the only viable option. Scopul scuza mijloacele.


Thats not the task of a leader. If that would have been the task of a true leader then Romania would have never existed.
Also, consider that forfeiting territories to save lives may lead to the contrary situation. The leader may find himself with too little resources and lands to sustain the saved folks. Obviously he would then have to send them to work in other kingdoms or to assimilate in the four corners of the world. What can I say... hell of a leader!! biggrin.gif
[I was a little sarcastic, no offense intended]

take care

Posted by: Imperialist March 07, 2005 10:49 pm
QUOTE
And, Mr. Imperialist, why would you think Germany - at that time - had no international authority to arbiter a conflict between Hungary and Rumania? Germany was the relevant power in Europe of those days (alongside the expanding Soviet Union). Moreover, it was Hungary and Rumania who asked Germany (and Italy) to issue a binding arbitration of the issue, which they would accept a priori...


Because the legitimity of its new international legal system (based on German might) was contested albeit verbally by Britain. It was the same situation as with the League of Nations, only reversed. Germany could ignore Britain and write thousands of diplomatic acts in Europe, yet as long as Britain (and later others) remained a "revisionist" power, Germany was far from imposing its international authority.

The Allies established their international authority thru the League after completely defeating the Central Powers in WWI. Any effort on their part to establish it during the war would have been only a local system lacking any international validity until the outcome of the war confirmed or infirmed it.
The same with the UN during WWII.
The same with Germany's european "international" authority.

p.s. why didnt hungary and romania approach russia for arbitration?

Posted by: Barbosu March 07, 2005 11:15 pm
I think that Germany (after invading Poland and France) could be only an ultimative judge in the arbitrage. No democratic country was involved in this scenery (neither Romania was democratic anymore).

But this is of topic. I invite you on Romania's "Territorial issues" or "options at the dawn of WW2" topics.

I tried to ask about the rights that Hungary had to ask for Transilvania at Vienna, but I got no answer, so I figured I'm of topic smile.gif . Therefore I made up this new topic on Romania's territorial issues".


Barbosu

Posted by: dragos March 08, 2005 09:24 am
QUOTE (Denes)
I mentioned several times on this forum that one of the most common errors someone studying history can commit is to use hindsight.
When one studies a particular historical event, he/she should take into consideration the realities of those times and not regard that particular event in the light of those many-many years have passed since. The historian can/should comment on those historical events, but cannot/should not change/twist them to fit the current ideology.


You are partially correct. But only partially, because it is not only necessary to change or twist the facts to fit a current ideology, but also to present the facts truncated, or out of context. Therefor, what you are asking, is to forget about who was Hitler or Mussolini, what was happening in Europe and what came out of this, and also to forget about the Romanian activity (diplomatic or otherwise) of undoing this act (therefor evidencing the character of "imposed by force" of this diktat).

QUOTE (Denes)
I also understand that to some this is the first time they see the topic put in another light, instead of the version published and taught in Rumania for many years about the "odious diktat"...


So what should been taught in Romania about it? That it wasn't bad or "odious" as you put it? Come on, one can claim that the invasion of Poland was not so "odious" from a different light, or the fate of Czechoslovakia, and so on... Everybody can judge the past events as he wishes, as long as he respects the point of view of the victims.

Posted by: dragos August 18, 2005 10:59 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Mar 5 2005, 07:31 PM)
In the meantime, both Rumania and Hungary asked Germany and Italy for an arbitration in this thorny topic, woving to accept the results a priori .

QUOTE (Denes)
Moreover, it was Hungary and Rumania who asked Germany (and Italy) to issue a binding arbitration of the issue, which they would accept a priori...


This would create the false impression that Romania requested the "award" by her own initiative. In fact, Romania had absolutely no reason to do so, unless she was threatened to, which again shows that such statements offers only half-truths, bypassing the context of the events.

On 15 July 1940, after the fall of France, Hitler addressed a letter to Romania's leader by which he proposed Romania to open negociations with Hungary and Bulgaria, countries presented in the letter as old friends of Germany, in order to avoid a disaster of the country.

The threats contiuned at the end of July, when the president of the crown council and the Romanian foreign minister were invited at Salzburg and Berchtesgaden, and after that at Rome.

The Romanian and Hungarian delegations met on 10 August 1940, obviously without any result since the Hungarian side demanded approximately 67,000 square km, while the Romanian side proposed an exchange of population on ethnical principle. The request of Hungary would have meant that 2,200,000 Romanians would enter under Hungarian administration, while only 162,000 Hungarians would have remained in the Romanian controlled part of Transylvania.

The two delegations left on 24 August 1940 in order to allow the Hungarian side to reconsider its demands, and meet again, this time in Hungary. But only three days later, on 27 August 1940, the Reich's minister in Bucharest informed the Romanian foreign minister that Ribbentrop invited the Romanian minister to Vienna, in order to settle the Romanian-Hungarian issue in the presence of German and Italian officials. The Romanian minister should have had full powers of decisions on the Romanian-Hungarian relations.

Arriving at Vienna on 29 August, thr Romanian officials were informed they are to sign the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano. At the protest of Romanian delegation, they were simply threatened that if they refuse, Romania would risk an attack from all directions. In case Romania would accept the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano, it would have the new borders guaranteed by Germany and Italy.

Having transmitted the situation in Bucharest, the Crown Council was summoned in the same evening. Even if the ultimatum given for a decision expired with several hours, at 3,30 AM they voted with 21 to 11 for submitting to the award. On 30 August, the Romanian delegation was entitled with power to accept the award in the name of Romania, both of the officials being required to sign it.

The document was signed only by one of the two Romanian officials. It was also neither given official sanction by the Romanian government, nor it was published in the "Buletinul Oficial".

Posted by: sid guttridge September 03, 2005 10:54 am
Hi Guys,

There is no doubt that the Vienna Arbitration was a "diktat" imposed on Romania.

Romania, being in possession of all the disputed territory, had no reason to want an arbitration. Such an arbitration was imposed upon it.

By contrast, Hungary was in possession of none of the disputed territory and could only gain from any arbitration, to which it agreed first.

There was no such entity as the "Vienna Diktat". There was, however, a Vienna Arbitration, which was most definitely a diktat as far as Romania was concerned, both in the compulsion to submit to arbitration in the first place and then to agree to its result in the second place.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist September 03, 2005 11:34 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 18 2005, 10:59 AM)

The document was signed only by one of the two Romanian officials. It was also neither given official sanction by the Romanian government, nor it was published in the "Buletinul Oficial".

The fact that it withdrew the Army and allowed the changes of the border was an official sanction of the document.

Also PM Gigurtu did not allow any public meeting against the Arbitration.

Posted by: Imperialist September 03, 2005 11:41 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 3 2005, 10:54 AM)

Romania, being in possession of all the disputed territory, had no reason to want an arbitration. Such an arbitration was imposed upon it.

By contrast, Hungary was in possession of none of the disputed territory and could only gain from any arbitration, to which it agreed first.

There was no such entity as the "Vienna Diktat". There was, however, a Vienna Arbitration, which was most definitely a diktat as far as Romania was concerned, both in the compulsion to submit to arbitration in the first place and then to agree to its result in the second place.

Romania was not forced to submit to arbitration. It was threatened to do that. It succumbed to the threat, not to the force that broke its powers to resist. It could have chosen war with Hungary. It preferred arbitration, though probably imagined that the Germans will be biased towards Hungary. And who compulsed Romania to agree to its result but Romanian politicians themselves?

Posted by: dragos03 September 03, 2005 12:34 pm
Not true. Romania was threatened with war by Germany too, it was not an assumption. If Romania refused, the Soviets would occupy the whole Moldova, Bulgaria the whole Dobrogea, Hungary the whole Transilvania, while Germany would take the rest.

Posted by: Imperialist September 03, 2005 01:57 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 3 2005, 12:34 PM)
Not true. Romania was threatened with war by Germany too, it was not an assumption. If Romania refused, the Soviets would occupy the whole Moldova, Bulgaria the whole Dobrogea, Hungary the whole Transilvania, while Germany would take the rest.

To what part of my message are you replying?

Posted by: Dénes September 04, 2005 02:35 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 18 2005, 04:59 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Mar 5 2005, 07:31 PM)
In the meantime, both Rumania and Hungary asked Germany and Italy for an arbitration in this thorny topic, woving to accept the results a priori .

QUOTE (Denes)
Moreover, it was Hungary and Rumania who asked Germany (and Italy) to issue a binding arbitration of the issue, which they would accept a priori...


This would create the false impression that Romania requested the "award" by her own initiative. In fact, Romania had absolutely no reason to do so, unless she was threatened to, which again shows that such statements offers only half-truths, bypassing the context of the events.

Dragos, I owed you (and others) a proof regarding Rumania's actual request towards Germany and Italy for an arbitration on the Transylvanian issue.

Here is the complete an unaltered transcription of a German document, which clearly states, repeatedly, that Rumania - along with Hungary - did ask for the arbitration. It also shows that Germany had greater interest in Rumania, due to her oil and grain wealth.

QUOTE
The Reich Foreign Minister to the German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg)

Telegram

VERY URGENT

BERLIN, August 31, 1910-3:12 a. m.

Received Moscow August 31, 1940-10 a. m.

No. 1565 of August 30


Please call on Herr Molotov and inform him orally of the Vienna conversations and the German-Italian award in the Hungarian-Rumanian matter, approximately as follows:

As Molotov was previously informed, both the Rumanian and the Hungarian Governments some time ago solicited the advice of the Führer and the Duce on the solution of the problem of territorial revision. The Führer and the Duce urgently advised both parties, as well as the Bulgarian Government, to come to an understanding as promptly as possible by way of direct, bilateral negotiations.

While the Bulgaro-Rumanian negotiations led relatively soon to an agreement in principle, and we can now look forward to the early conclusion of a formal agreement, it recently became more and more obvious that the Hungarian-Rumanian negotiations were running into very great difficulties and that no progress was discernible in reconciling the viewpoints of the two parties. Lately relations between Hungary and Rumania deteriorated to such an extent that the possibility of military complications had to be seriously faced. In compliance with the repeated requests of both the Hungarian and the Rumanian Governments, the Government of the Reich and the Italian Government found it necessary in repeated personal consultations to influence both parties toward effecting a speedier understanding. For this purpose, the meeting in Vienna was agreed upon a few days ago on very short notice. Since the attitude of the Rumanians and of the Hungarians held out no prospect of an agreement by direct negotiation, and since both parties requested arbitration by Germany and Italy, the Government of the Reich and the Italian Government withdrew their previous objections to such arbitration and assumed the task of settlement by arbitration.

The Government of the Reich decided upon this course in agreement with the Italian Government, because it was evident that there was no further prospect of reaching a peaceful solution by any other means and because both Axis Powers have a fundamental interest in the maintenance of peace and order in those areas. This concern arises, as has always been understood between ourselves and the Soviet Government, primarily from the fact that Germany and Italy are very closely involved [verknütpf] with the Rumanian economy. So, for example, the extraction of Rumanian oil, its shipment to Germany, the uninterrupted importation of Rumanian grain into Germany, etc., are becoming of ever more vital significance for the Axis Powers. Hence an armed conflict in those areas, whatever its cause, could not have been tolerated by the Axis. After the Soviet Government had peacefully settled her controversy with Rumania, and the Rumanian-Bulgarian problem likewise approached a settlement, it was imperative that the last remaining territorial problem should not lead to an armed conflict. Because of the very complicated geographical and ethnological situation in Transylvania, the decision was not an easy one. However, we finally found a way out of the difficulties, which was based upon a just and impartial consideration of all the interests concerned. By their award, which was accepted by both parties without reservation, Germany and Italy have now secured the peace that was threatened in the Danube region. But in order to forestall once and for all a repetition of differences which might easily arise in areas of such territorial and ethnological complexity, the Axis Powers have undertaken to guarantee the territory of Rumania, which has now been definitively pacified. Since the award necessarily involved the cession of a considerable portion of Rumanian territory, it was a natural need for the Rumanians henceforth to be able to regard their boundary with Hungary and their territory in general as definitively secured. Since the territorial demands made by the Soviet Government on Rumania have been settled by the cession of Bessarabia, since the Bulgarian demands are now in course of being met, and since Rumania, through the award, has obtained her definitive boundary with Hungary, there could remain from this standpoint no further objection to the granting of such a guarantee by the Axis Powers.

Please tell Herr Molotov on my behalf that in view of the friendly relations between our countries, I attach great importance to informing the Soviet Government of these events.

We assume that, from the points of view set forth above, the Soviet Government, too, will welcome the settlement achieved by the Axis and regard it as a valuable contribution toward securing the peace in the Danube region.

RIBBENTROP


The problem is that you're relying almost exclusively on Rumanian sources, which imply limitation. Same can be said, of course, of those who rely solely on Hungarian sources.

I hope the above document clearifies the issue, once for all.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 12:29 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 4 2005, 05:35 AM)
I hope the above document clearifies the issue, once for all.

Nice reading. Do you also have any Soviet diplomatic proclamations, signed by Molotov or Stalin? Of course, for the sake of ultimate truth.

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 12:33 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 3 2005, 01:54 PM)
Romania, being in possession of all the disputed territory, had no reason to want an arbitration. Such an arbitration was imposed upon it.

By contrast, Hungary was in possession of none of the disputed territory and could only gain from any arbitration, to which it agreed first.

Precisely.

Posted by: Imperialist September 04, 2005 01:57 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 3 2005, 10:54 AM)


There was no such entity as the "Vienna Diktat". There was, however, a Vienna Arbitration, which was most definitely a diktat as far as Romania was concerned, both in the compulsion to submit to arbitration in the first place and then to agree to its result in the second place.



The compulsion to agree to the result of an arbitration is the main aspect of accepting arbitration in the first place.
As for the compulsion to submit, there was no such thing. Having to choose between a war over the disputed territory and building a case to present for arbitration, the romanian diplomats chose the latter. It was a conscious choice. They even prepared the necessary documentation to sustain their claim over the territory. Ofcourse, they had the surprise to find out things were already decided, but surely they were not unaware of the bias of the arbiter to which they submited.


Posted by: Dénes September 04, 2005 02:01 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 4 2005, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 4 2005, 05:35 AM)
I hope the above document clearifies the issue, once for all.

Nice reading. Do you also have any Soviet diplomatic proclamations, signed by Molotov or Stalin? Of course, for the sake of ultimate truth.

Pretty lame answer, if I may add.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 02:50 pm
QUOTE (Denes)
Pretty lame answer, if I may add.


The same I could say of using Ribbentrop affirmations for supporting the idea that Romania somehow wanted an arbitration.

If you know more about this why don't you tell when did Romanian government specifically asked for the advice of Hitler and Mussolini. How comes then that when the two Romanian officials were summoned at Vienna, they were totally surprised by the purpose of the meeting?

Posted by: Dénes September 04, 2005 02:58 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 4 2005, 08:50 PM)
QUOTE (Denes)
Pretty lame answer, if I may add.


The same I could say of using Ribbentrop affirmations for supporting the idea that Romania somehow wanted an arbitration.

Ribbentrop was there. And the quoted diplomatic document was for internal, close circuit use, not one for the large masses; therefore, questioning its veradicity is rather lame.

QUOTE
If you know more about this why don't you tell when did Romanian government specifically asked for the advice of Hitler and Mussolini.

I will let you find that out. The Rumanian archives are much closer to you than to me. Anyhow, I did my part in finding a pertinent document that clarifies the issue - no matter if you like it or not.

QUOTE
How comes then that when the two Romanian officials were summoned at Vienna, they were totally surprised by the purpose of the meeting?

They should not have been surprised at all, as the purpose of the meeting was apparently known to both parties. They didn't go to Vienna for sightseeing...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 03:15 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 4 2005, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE
If you know more about this why don't you tell when did Romanian government specifically asked for the advice of Hitler and Mussolini.

I will let you find that out. The Rumanian archives are much closer to you than to me. Anyhow, I did my part in finding a pertinent document that clarifies the issue - no matter if you like it or not.

You came up with this claim, it's your task to prove it. The diplomatic assertions of Ribbentrop are simply not enough.

Posted by: Dénes September 04, 2005 04:05 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 4 2005, 09:15 PM)
You came up with this claim, it's your task to prove it.

I just did it.

QUOTE
The diplomatic assertions of Ribbentrop are simply not enough.

For you, perhaps. That's fine with me.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 04:43 pm
Letter send by Hitler to Carol II on 15 July 1940:

QUOTE
There are two possibilities to solve the problems that worry Your Majesty and the entire Romania:
1) Tactical means: trying, by skillful adaptation to the actual situation, to save what can be saved;
2) Decision of principle: finding a definitive solution.
The second solution involves the risk of certain sacrifices.
Regarding the first way, I cannot express any opinion.
I, myself, was my entire life a man of principle decisions, and I only expect definitive solutions. Any attempt of avoiding the dangers that threatens your country by tactical maneuvers – no matter which – has to fail, and it will. The end will be, sooner or later, probably in a very short time, the destruction of Romania.
In my opinion, the second solution is the only one practicable. I do not deny that difficulties of internal and external nature that must be overcome. Nevertheless, I believe that, at least for the future, the following can be obtained: 1) a durable peace; 2) a better prosperity for all the partners.
The second solution, the one that I would propose to Your Majesty, is the loyal agreement with Hungary and Bulgaria. I mention these two states, because I would consider fatal a rationing which would grant concessions to one state only, in the view that they will be divided and the latter can be opposed with better resistance. By this, Sire, it can be gained a short delay at best. But it is clearly that a new disagreement would arise and a new conflict would break up with the first occasion. This occasion will show up at some point, and will show up very fast exactly because of a delay of the solution. […]
She (Germany) has friendships, among which the ones with Hungary and Bulgaria are old and cultivated. A friendly attitude of Romania towards Germany, in the future, will be certainly appreciated by Germany, especially because, unfortunately, lately but also in the past – as it was found in newly discovered documents – the attitude of Romania’s official policy towards the Reich was unfriendly, and even hostile…





Posted by: Dénes September 04, 2005 05:27 pm
O.K. And your point (related to the topic) is?

Gen. Dénes

P.S. First you dismiss Ribbentrop, not you quote Hitler... biggrin.gif

Posted by: dragos September 04, 2005 06:53 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 4 2005, 08:27 PM)
O.K. And your point (related to the topic) is?

Gen. Dénes

P.S. First you dismiss Ribbentrop, not you quote Hitler... biggrin.gif

It illustrates the threats for forcing Romania into giving in to the demands of Hungary and Bulgaria. It certainly doesn't look like a Romanian initiative, how the telegram of Ribbentrop "approximates".

Posted by: sid guttridge September 05, 2005 10:09 am
Hi Imperialist,

If Hungary was the only problem, then I have little doubt that Romania would have fought and, according to German estimates of the then strengths of the two armies, probably with fair prospects of success.

However, any fighting would have threatened Germany's oil supplies, a vital proportion of which came from Romania. The Romanians, with British assistance, had demolished their oil fields in WWI rather than let them fall into German hands. Germany could not afford a repetition. Hitler thus required a peaceful resolution. He therefore moved mechanised divisions both to eastern Austria and the south-eastern General Gouvernment to put pressure on the two governments to agree to peaceful arbitration. The Hungarians agreed first, leaving the Romanians facing possible German intervention if they refused. This was the threat that forced the Romanian politicians to agree to arbitration. There was more than Transilvania at stake if Romania refused arbitration.

On top of this, Romania could not deploy its full forces in Transilvania because of the continuing Soviet and Bulgarian threats and Italy, for what it was worth, agreed with Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 05, 2005 11:04 am
Denes do you agree that:

1. Majority of population in that area was romanian
2. Romania was forced to agree with this "arbitration"
3. It was by all means a bad thing for Romania
4. The 2 main leaders who forced this on Romania were dictators who choped EUrope to suit their own selfish needs without any regard to human rights (not to speak of nation's rights to exist)

?

Posted by: Zayets September 05, 2005 11:17 am
QUOTE (Bernard Miclescu @ Jul 27 2004, 09:40 PM)
Well , for the "Diktat" definition i agree withe Denes. A real Diktat, IMO was the Versailles treaty towards Germany. No German delegation was there to sign the Treaty. And BTW i don't remember if any Austro-Hungarian were too.

Austro-Hungarian state/empire/whatever ceased to exist when Versailles/Trianon etc took place.I am too lazy to look for the source(on the net),but because this entity did not existed it made the process difficult. The winners wanted to deal with Austro-Hungary and not with Austria AND Hungary.Hence,the harsh (but well deserved) ruling.Combine that with the smart moves Romanians polticians did and there you have it.Anyway,we debate here about this but I believe we'll reach no compromise.Is beating the old horse again.Fine with me.

Posted by: sid guttridge September 05, 2005 11:26 am
Hi D13th-Mytzu,

By "the area" do you mean Transilvania or just Northern Transilvania?

According to the 1910 Austro-Hungarian census, Romanians were the majority in Transilvania as a whole, but it is not quite so clear cut with regards to the area designated Northern Transilvania by the Vienna Arbitration. Inward Romanian migration to Northern Transilvania between the wars may have changed the ballance in some areas. I think the Hungarians expelled about 200,000 Romanians after the Vienna Arbitation, many on the grounds that they were recent immigrants.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets September 05, 2005 11:50 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 5 2005, 11:26 AM)

By "the area" do you mean Transilvania or just Northern Transilvania?

No matter how you take it,is the same wink.gif

Posted by: sid guttridge September 05, 2005 03:46 pm
Hi Zayets,

But is it?

If I remember rightly, Romanian claims were that 51% of the population of Northern Transilvania was Romanian. Suppose that using Romanian population figures the Vienna Award had drawn a slightly different line that shifted 2% of the Romanians into Romania, putting Romanians into a clear minority in Northern Transilvania of 49%. Would this have given a border that was acceptable? I doubt it. I would suggest that both countries were after a settlement that was to the maximum in their favour, regardless of population figures or local will.

The fact is that whatever the population statistics, Northern Transilvania became legally Romanian after WWI, was legally Romanian in 1940 and is still legally Romanian today. Furthermore, the Romanian proportion of the population has grown significantly so that today, in practical terms, this is a dead issue.

Cheers,

Sid

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 05, 2005 04:48 pm
QUOTE
If I remember rightly, Romanian claims were that 51% of the population of Northern Transilvania was Romanian


So.. do you think the rest of 49% were of hungarian origins ? smile.gif

Posted by: dragos September 05, 2005 05:29 pm
The fact that there was a Romanian majority in the area (be it simple or absolute), proves that the award was not grounded on ethnical principles. It was merely a seizure of territory by which the Reich was extending its influence close to the Romanian oilfields.

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 05:46 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 5 2005, 11:29 PM)
The fact that there was a Romanian majority in the area (be it simple or absolute), proves that the award was not grounded on ethnical principles.

Wrong. According to the 1941 Hungarian census, Northern Transylvania (a 43,104 sq. km territory) had 2,633,000 inhabitants, where ethnic Hungarians were in slim majority (51.4%), with the Rumanians accounting to 42.0% and the Germans to 3.2% (the rest was made up by other minorities).

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 05, 2005 05:49 pm
So.. which source should we belive and whgy: the romanian source which says 51+% romanisn or the hungraian source which says 51+% hungarians ? smile.gif

Politics is a biatch wink.gif

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 05:53 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 5 2005, 05:04 PM)
Denes do you agree that:

1. Majority of population in that area was romanian
2. Romania was forced to agree with this "arbitration"
3. It was by all means a bad thing for Romania
4. The 2 main leaders who forced this on Romania were dictators who choped EUrope to suit their own selfish needs without any regard to human rights (not to speak of nation's rights to exist)

?

1. Overall in historic Transylvania yes. In Northern Transylvania no (see my post above).
2. Rumania choose to seek for arbitration, rather to go to war.
3. Certainly yes. But not the worst.
4. Yes, they were. However, at that time they were the rulers and powerbrokers of Europe - along with Stalin.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 05:57 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 5 2005, 11:49 PM)
So.. which source should we belive and whgy: the romanian source which says 51+% romanisn or the hungraian source which says 51+% hungarians ? smile.gif

Politics is a biatch wink.gif

Following the Vienna Resolution, the Rumanians had no meaning to number the inhabitants of Northern Transylvania and their ethnic affiliation. By contrast, the Hungarians did.
Therefore I don't know what are the Rumanian figures based on.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Politics is indeed a bitch. However, we're (attempting to) discuss history here, not politics - although some confuse the two disciplines.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 05, 2005 06:08 pm
QUOTE
P.S. Politics is indeed a bitch. However, we're (attempting to) discuss history here, not politics - although some confuse the two disciplines.


History is based on politics.

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 06:11 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 6 2005, 12:08 AM)
QUOTE
P.S. Politics is indeed a bitch. However, we're (attempting to) discuss history here, not politics - although some confuse the two disciplines.


History is based on politics.

What I meant was current politics.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 05, 2005 06:28 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 5 2005, 08:46 PM)
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 5 2005, 11:29 PM)
The fact that there was a Romanian majority in the area (be it simple or absolute), proves that the award was not grounded on ethnical principles.

Wrong. According to the 1941 Hungarian census, Northern Transylvania (a 43,104 sq. km territory) had 2,633,000 inhabitants, where ethnic Hungarians were in slim majority (51.4%), with the Rumanians accounting to 42.0% and the Germans to 3.2% (the rest was made up by other minorities).

Gen. Dénes

Check the censuses at from the following document:
http://www.ispaim.ro/doc/English/14%201.10.doc

QUOTE

Population of Ceded Portion of Transylvania

Census of 1910 (Hungarian by mother-tongue)
Magyar          1 125 732
Romanian          926 268
...
Total            2  194 254

Census of 1930 (Romanian, by nationality)
Magyar            911 550
Romanian      1 176 433
...
Total            2 395 147

Census of 1941 (Hungarian)
Magyar          1 347 012
Romanian      1 066 353
...
Total            2  577 291

Source: C. A. Macartney, October Fifteenth. A History of Modern Hungary, 1929-1945 (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1957), Vol. 1, p. 423.

The census figures used in this table are dubious. Both the Hungarian and the Romanian census authorities appear to have juggled the figures relating to the ethnic and national minorities in order to advance their particular national interests with reference to their respective claims to the region. This was particularly true of the statistical treatment of the Jewish minority.


Also it is obvious that at the time of Hungarian census, the Romanian population in North-Western Transylvania declined since 1940, which is the relevant year.

Posted by: Zayets September 05, 2005 06:32 pm
Exactly what I said,we beat the dead horse.And every time somebody will open the subject no conclusion will be reached.Just watch and see in this case as well. Personaly,I think it was a seizure.Wether Romanian politicians did the right thing,well,that's another thing.However,I don't really believe that in Northern Transylvania 51+% were Hungarians or ethnic Hungarians.And I don't think the Szekely considers themselves Hungarians wink.gif. Born and raised in Sighisoara/Szegesvar/Schassburg and have both Szekely & Hungarians friends.I used to speak quite good the language,but somehow German took place.My grandma is in fact a Pap.Whatever,one thing remains,wether diktat or anytthing else,there were deportation and mass assasinations.And you can't blame Romanians for the feelings they have nowadays regarding the issue.One thing is for sure,the big fuss is made nowadays by the people not living there. I have never had anything,any problem,I always enjoyed to speak two languages(especially when I was in the army smile.gif ). Live for 25 years there and then speak , yes , Hungarians so and Romanians that,whatever. If you leave them alone,minding their business everything will be just fine.And that's proven.Stir the pot and you'll get some nasty outcome.

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 06:51 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 6 2005, 12:32 AM)
I don't really believe that in Northern Transylvania 51+% were Hungarians or ethnic Hungarians.

It's your personal freedom to believe in what you want. However, official sources quoted above speak otherwise.

QUOTE
And I don't think the Szekely considers themselves Hungarians wink.gif.

See above. It's similar to saying that Moldavians don't consider themselves Rumanian. Of course, there are a few hotheads who don't, but the overwhelming majority yes (just ask Alex H., for example).

QUOTE
Born and raised in Sighisoara/Szegesvar/Schassburg

It's actually Segesvár/Schäßburg.

QUOTE
and have both Szekely & Hungarians friends

I also have Rumanian and Moldavian friends... wink.gif

QUOTE
Whatever,one thing remains,wether diktat or anytthing else,there were deportation and mass assasinations.

True. On both sides.

QUOTE
I have never had anything,any problem,I always enjoyed to speak two languages(especially when I was in the army smile.gif ).

By contrast, I did have problems speaking, privatelly, Hungarian, while in the Army (under Ceausescu's time).

QUOTE
Live for 25 years there and then speak , yes , Hungarians so and Romanians that,whatever

Correct. I lived there exactly 25 years and speak both languages.

QUOTE
If you leave them alone,minding their business everything will be just fine.And that's proven.Stir the pot and you'll get some nasty outcome.

This is a fine example of what I wrote earlier, regarding mixing history with current politics. That's why we cannot reach even a basic historical understanding regarding this sensitive issue.

It's a fact that Transylvania currently is part of the Rumanian State. No-one in his/her right mind would actually want to change this fact. Now let's turn back to discussing history, leaving politics to others, who don't have anything better to do and indeed want to stir the (stinking) pot.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Zayets September 05, 2005 07:10 pm
To bo honest Denes I think you took my post in a very wrong manner. Probably neither Moldavians or whatever considers themselves Romanians, I never said that.There are hotheads who don't , ask Voronin.
Besides,it is Szegesvar , not Segesvar if you want to be a smart dude. And both styles of writing are correct , Schassburg , being one of them.
As for the rest,I won't even bother to answer you,wether you agree or not. Have a nice evening,sir.

Posted by: Dénes September 05, 2005 07:26 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 6 2005, 01:10 AM)
Besides,it is Szegesvar , not Segesvar if you want to be a smart dude.

It's not about 'smartdudeness', but being precise in what one states (you're wong regarding the spelling, by the way, but it shouldn't matter).

QUOTE
Have a nice evening,sir.

You, too. No hard feelings.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Zayets September 05, 2005 07:56 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 5 2005, 07:26 PM)
It's not about 'smartdudeness', but being precise in what one states (you're wong regarding the spelling, by the way, but it shouldn't matter).

Of course it doesn't matter as long as you were wrong.I don't think I was wrong in spelling,I just don't have the accent on my keyboard,which it will make it an "o" , yours is missing the "z" letter,hence your attempt to correct my grammar was as ridiculous as the whole further explanation.

I also don't have hard feelings.As I said,the subject of the diktat does not move me at all.At the end of the day,justice has been made.

Posted by: dragos September 06, 2005 07:44 am
Regarding the population issue, the last official census before the Vienna Diktat (the one in 1930) gives an absolute majority of Romanian ethnics in Transylvania as a whole and a simple majority of Romanians in the ceded portion of Transylvania (49.1% vs. 38% Hungarians).

Posted by: sid guttridge September 06, 2005 10:19 am
Hi Guys,

The passage of time is slowly resolving this issue. Our retrospective arguments based on questionable census returns won't.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 12:38 pm
Sid, please do not mix current politics and history.

What we are trying here is to sort out the historical facts, not the political rights for Transylvania, which is out of question.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: sid guttridge September 06, 2005 03:27 pm
Hi Denes,

That is part of my point. All that is going to happen is that each side of the argument is endlessly going to regurgitate the contradictory and suspect Hungarian and Romanian census figures of 1910, 1930 and 1941 that Dragos gave a link to. This will get nobody anywhere because neither side can or will agree on the "historical facts".

As a result, whether the Second Vienna Arbitration was fair to one side or the other will not be resolved to anyone's satisfaction here.

What can be said with reasonable certainty, is that it was theoretically possible to draw a frontier that would have included more Transilvanian Hungarians than Transilvanian Romanians inside Hungary. However, whether the Second Vienna Arbitration achieved this is a debateable point now and forever because the evidence of the 1910, 1930 and 1941 censuses is contradictory and suspect.

Time will resolve this. We won't.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: dragos03 September 06, 2005 04:22 pm
What do you mean by "Time will resolve this" ?

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 04:24 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 6 2005, 10:22 PM)
What do you mean by "Time will resolve this" ?

That's a good point.
I would also like to see the asnwer to it, i.e. your perspective. smile.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: sid guttridge September 06, 2005 04:52 pm
Hi Dragos03 and Denes,

I am an outsider with no vested interest. On the contradictory and suspect evidence available in the 1910, 1930 and 1941 censuses I find it impossible to draw a firm conclusion.

As I said above, it was clearly theoretically possible to draw a new frontier that put more Transilvanian Hungarians than Transilvanian Romanians into Hungary, but I cannot be at all sure from the contradictory evidence of the three censuses that the Second Vienna Arbitration achieved that.

As to "Time will resolve this" I refer to the politico-ethnic situation in Transilvania, not the argument over the rights and wrongs over 1940. That seems likely to run and run for the reasons I state above - the main planks of the argument reside in the 1910, 1930 and 1941 censuses, but these are contradictory and suspect.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: dragos03 September 06, 2005 05:05 pm
And how do you think that time will resolve "the politico-ethnic situation in Transilvania"?

Posted by: Imperialist September 06, 2005 05:13 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 6 2005, 04:52 PM)


As to "Time will resolve this" I refer to the politico-ethnic situation in Transilvania, not the argument over the rights and wrongs over 1940.

What is there to "solve/resolve"?

Posted by: dragos September 06, 2005 05:17 pm
Edit: I had the same question as Imperialist, only he was faster.

Posted by: sid guttridge September 06, 2005 05:37 pm
Hi Guys,

Romanian census/Hungarian percentage of total population:

1930/9.97%
1956/9.08%
1977/7.95%
1992/7.12%
2002/6.6%

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 05:43 pm
So in about 150 years from now there won't be a single Hungarian left in Rumania. smile.gif
Well, I won't be too much worried about this prospect, as there is a possibility that by then no humans will be left at all...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 05:45 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 6 2005, 11:37 PM)
Romanian census/Hungarian percentage of total population:

1930/9.97%

Didn't that include the population of Bessarabia & the Quadrilateral as well? If so, the comparison is not right.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos September 06, 2005 05:54 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 6 2005, 08:37 PM)
Hi Guys,

Romanian census/Hungarian percentage of total population:

1930/9.97%
1956/9.08%
1977/7.95%
1992/7.12%
2002/6.6%

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE (sid guttridge)
Time will resolve this.


So problem solved = 0% ?



Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 06:01 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 6 2005, 11:54 PM)
So problem solved = 0% ?

Reportedly Stalin said once: "no man, no problem". blink.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 September 06, 2005 06:11 pm
But what is exactly the problem? I don't consider the Hungarians in Romania to be a problem.

Posted by: Zayets September 06, 2005 06:13 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ Sep 6 2005, 06:11 PM)
But what is exactly the problem? I don't consider the Hungarians in Romania to be a problem.

Obviously,some think different.And moreover some Hungarian ethnics think they do have a problem.What gives?

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 06, 2005 06:24 pm
QUOTE
And moreover some Hungarian ethnics think they do have a problem


I could say the same about some romanians smile.gif

Guys this discussion is beoming... funny (to be polite).

Posted by: dragos September 06, 2005 06:32 pm
Mytzu is right, let's get back to the topic.

Posted by: Zayets September 06, 2005 06:45 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 6 2005, 06:24 PM)
QUOTE
And moreover some Hungarian ethnics think they do have a problem


I could say the same about some romanians smile.gif

This is also true.But yes,lets get back to the topic.

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 07:48 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 7 2005, 12:32 AM)
Mytzu is right, let's get back to the topic.

O.K., right.
So, "Vienna, 30 August 1940 - Award or Diktat ?" biggrin.gif

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Admin., please do no start a poll for the answer...

Posted by: dragos September 06, 2005 08:10 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 6 2005, 10:48 PM)
So, "Vienna, 30 August 1940 - Award or Diktat ?" biggrin.gif

Read the topic, maybe you'll find out.

Posted by: Zayets September 06, 2005 08:37 pm
I learned that this was a diktat.Call it agreement , but definitely can't be called award.

Posted by: Imperialist September 06, 2005 08:52 pm
I think it was an arbitration.

Posted by: Dénes September 06, 2005 08:59 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 02:52 AM)
I think it was an arbitration.

I also believe that's the proper historical term.
Neither 'Award', nor 'Diktat' is historically accurate. I tried to prove it accordingly.

I can't - and won't - add anything else to the topic, unless new documents/proofs - not personal opinions - surface (or I am personally referred to).

Of course, everyone is free to use whatever adjective he/she prefers.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 05:32 am
Yes,an arbitration seems to be a proper definition.

Posted by: dragos September 07, 2005 07:25 am
I believe the term diktat suggest better the historical reality than award or arbitration. An arbitration suggest something demanded by both parties. The claim that Romania wanted the arbitration defies the historical truth and the logic itself.

Proof that Romania did not expect an arbitration at Vienna:
- the Romanian officials were summoned unexpectedly at Vienna, while the Romanians were preparing to meet the Hungarians for new negociations in Hungary
- the two Romanian officials arriving on 29 August at Vienna were not entitled with powers of decision regarding territorial changes
- the Crown Council was summoned in the night of 29/30 in order to decide if Romania accepts or not the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano
- the second day, Romania issued an official announcement denouncing the aggression. The Germans were upset and requested that Romania retract the announcement, but Romania did not comply.

The only proof presented by Denes in favor of the theory that Romania wanted the arbitration, is a telegram of Ribbentrop to Molotov. It seems that the same theory was alleged by Hungarians at the Peace conference of 1947, trying not to lose everything they gained in 1940.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 07:40 am
Follow-up.
Of course,when I mean arbitration I speak about Italy&Germany one one side and Hungary on the other.I never thought/known that Romania wanted these terms of diktat/arbitration.
But question is,what today books/history say? And let's leave Romanian & Hungarian books aside.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 07, 2005 07:53 am
QUOTE
But question is,what today books/history say? And let's leave Romanian & Hungarian books aside.


I think you should be more precise about what kind of books.. you need a VERY expert opinion on this, not just any opinion.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 07:56 am
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 7 2005, 07:53 AM)
QUOTE
But question is,what today books/history say? And let's leave Romanian & Hungarian books aside.


I think you should be more precise about what kind of books.. you need a VERY expert opinion on this, not just any opinion.

Why?Does that matter?If that really matters then read : what's the general oppinion sometimes expressed in books,articles,essays or any mediatic/historical channel.
And who can give a VERY expert opinion on this (as long as it is only one oppinion won't make it acceptable for everybody)?

Posted by: sid guttridge September 07, 2005 11:07 am
Hi Guys,

There was an Arbitration at Vienna. However, it was an arbitration that Romania did not ask for first, an arbitration to which it was forced to submit and an arbitration the results of which it was forced to accept due to the weight of outside, non-Hungarian, pressure brought to bear.

I see no problem in using the word "diktat" to accurately describe the Vienna Arbitration, especially from the Romanian point of view. Romania was acting under outside compulsion throughout and it was not Hungarian compulsion that forced Romania into agreeing to an arbitration in which it could only be a loser.

However, on purely technical grounds, I object to the occasional use of the capitalised formulation "Vienna Diktat".

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 12:48 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 7 2005, 07:25 AM)
An arbitration suggest something demanded by both parties. The claim that Romania wanted the arbitration defies the historical truth and the logic itself.

Proof that Romania did not expect an arbitration at Vienna:
- the Romanian officials were summoned unexpectedly at Vienna, while the Romanians were preparing to meet the Hungarians for new negociations in Hungary
- the two Romanian officials arriving on 29 August at Vienna were not entitled with powers of decision regarding territorial changes
- the Crown Council was summoned in the night of 29/30 in order to decide if Romania accepts or not the decision of Ribbentrop and Ciano
- the second day, Romania issued an official announcement denouncing the aggression. The Germans were upset and requested that Romania retract the announcement, but Romania did not comply.


The question of "wanting" is not of interest here. Hungary didnt want to sign Trianon either, so? You signed it, thats it. The same for Romania. Signed it, gave up the territory, withdrew the Army, thats it.
Moreover, compared with Hungary and Trianon, Romania didnt even fight for the territory, while Hungary is far more entitled to call Trianon a Diktat because it was actually forced on them with war.
Lets be real about this. If Germany's Order in Europe was not going fall, the Arbitration would have meant a long bye-bye to the ceded territories.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 12:57 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 12:48 PM)
Moreover, compared with Hungary and Trianon, Romania didnt even fight for the territory, while Hungary is far more entitled to call Trianon a Diktat because it was actually forced on them with war.

Which war? This? : http://www.procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/ioanitoiu/rechizit.htm

Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 02:28 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 12:57 PM)
Which war? This? : http://www.procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/ioanitoiu/rechizit.htm

WWI.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 03:01 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 02:28 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 12:57 PM)
Which war? This? : http://www.procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/ioanitoiu/rechizit.htm

WWI.

WW1 was over when the Trianon treaty was signed.Or whatever,call it diktat if you please.

Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 03:10 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 03:01 PM)
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 02:28 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 12:57 PM)
Which war? This? : http://www.procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/ioanitoiu/rechizit.htm

WWI.

WW1 was over when the Trianon treaty was signed.Or whatever,call it diktat if you please.

And, whats your point? Because you only repeated what I have said. And I dont know whats with that link you gave. Isnt that WWII discussed on that page?

Posted by: dragos September 07, 2005 03:15 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 03:48 PM)
The question of "wanting" is not of interest here. Hungary didnt want to sign Trianon either, so? You signed it, thats it. The same for Romania. Signed it, gave up the territory, withdrew the Army, thats it.
  Moreover, compared with Hungary and Trianon, Romania didnt even fight for the territory, while Hungary is far more entitled to call Trianon a Diktat because it was actually forced on them with war.
  Lets be real about this. If Germany's Order in Europe was not going fall, the Arbitration would have meant a long bye-bye to the ceded territories.

The comparison is out of place. Hungary was part of Austria-Hungary, which was defeated after arguably waging an aggression war. The Treaty of Trianon also meant justice for million of peoples and the right of self-determination according to the principle of nationalities.

The Second Vienna Arbitration was an act of aggression against a neutral country, concerted by Germany, Italy and Hungary, with the not openly declared support of USSR. The great democratic powers of the time, Great Britain and USA, did not consent to these arbitrary repartitions of territory, and they were fortunatelly on the wining camp.

Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 03:40 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 7 2005, 03:15 PM)

The comparison is out of place. Hungary was part of Austria-Hungary, which was defeated after arguably waging an aggression war. The Treaty of Trianon also meant justice for million of peoples and the right of self-determination according to the principle of nationalities.

The Second Vienna Arbitration was an act of aggression against a neutral country, concerted by Germany, Italy and Hungary, with the not openly declared support of USSR. The great democratic powers of the time, Great Britain and USA, did not consent to these arbitrary repartitions of territory, and they were fortunatelly on the wining camp.

Yes, Hungary was part of Austria-Hungary. Transylvania too. Romania entered the war with the clear goal of snatching Transylvania away from Austria-Hungary. The latter did not cede the territory, but fought for it. Losing the war, the winners imposed a Diktat on A.H. by which Romania received Transylvania.
In 1940, Romania was faced with a Diktat hidden in Arbitration clothes. The rulers of Romania knew the result of the "Arbitration" would not be fair, and the arbiters were biased. Did the powers in question impose, or dictate a settlement of the issue after they militarily defeated Romania? No. Romanian politicians did not resist, but went and signed and ceded the territory, thus legitimising the Arbitration.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 04:06 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 03:01 PM)
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 02:28 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Sep 7 2005, 12:57 PM)
Which war? This? : http://www.procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/ioanitoiu/rechizit.htm

WWI.

WW1 was over when the Trianon treaty was signed.Or whatever,call it diktat if you please.

And, whats your point? Because you only repeated what I have said. And I dont know whats with that link you gave. Isnt that WWII discussed on that page?

No you said
QUOTE
Moreover, compared with Hungary and Trianon, Romania didnt even fight for the territory, while Hungary is far more entitled to call Trianon a Diktat because it was actually forced on them with war.


As you phrase it one can say that Hungary opposed Trianon (which is obviously true) and they(Allied powers etc) forced this treaty "with war". And when you put it in the same context with August 30th 1944 things become even fuzzier.Is for that I asked you which war.Because Trianon/Versailles/Paris were direct result of a war.Not the other way around.
What I thought ,well, at least how I read it ,is that Hungary opposed Trianon and because of that another war broke.And the only conflict between the end of the war (WWI obviously) ,treaties negociacions and Trianon where Hungary was engaged was the one where Bela Khun attacked neighboring countries.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 04:13 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 7 2005, 03:15 PM)
The Second Vienna Arbitration was an act of aggression against a neutral country, concerted by Germany, Italy and Hungary, with the not openly declared support of USSR. The great democratic powers of the time, Great Britain and USA, did not consent to these arbitrary repartitions of territory, and they were fortunatelly on the wining camp.

I also second that.If you read the Trianon Treaty you could not notice the big number of parties/nations signing the document.Which is not the case in Vienna's arbitration/diktat/award. There is one big difference:Romania was a neutral country in 1940 ,Hungary a defeated country in 1920 (they played realy bad back then on the politics arena). In the first case we are talking about aggression/threatening with aggression,in the second case we talk about a decision/outcome of the war.
Yes, I do not think these cases can compare themselves.

Posted by: dragos September 07, 2005 04:22 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 06:40 PM)
Yes, Hungary was part of Austria-Hungary. Transylvania too. Romania entered the war with the clear goal of snatching Transylvania away from Austria-Hungary. The latter did not cede the territory, but fought for it. Losing the war, the winners imposed a Diktat on A.H. by which Romania received Transylvania.
In 1940, Romania was faced with a Diktat hidden in Arbitration clothes. The rulers of Romania knew the result of the "Arbitration" would not be fair, and the arbiters were biased. Did the powers in question impose, or dictate a settlement of the issue after they militarily defeated Romania? No. Romanian politicians did not resist, but went and signed and ceded the territory, thus legitimising the Arbitration.

Hasty and arbitrary considerations of momentous historical events.

Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 06:27 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 7 2005, 04:22 PM)

Hasty and arbitrary considerations of momentous historical events.

I dont think so.
Romania had a choice -- refuse participation to that obviously biased "Arbitration". Hence Hungary's territorial claims would have been a Diktat, forced with war and aggression.
-- participate to the biased "Arbitration", sign it, withdraw the Army without firing a shot and cede the territory. Hence, making an actual Arbitration of what would have been a Diktat (legitimising it).
The fact that later Romania did not like the result of the Arbitration would not matter much, because Arbitrations will not result in all sides liking the result. So it would have been better to refuse it outright.
We were extremely lucky that the wheels turned around and the powers that arbitered lost their power to maintain their Order in Europe. Otherwise that Romanian signature on that "Arbitration" would have meant a long bye-bye to Transylvania.

edit -- the question of forcing the participation to an arbitration is another thing.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 07, 2005 06:31 pm
Yeah... we should have declared war to Germany, conquer it and install romanian way of living in all Europe - get real laugh.gif

Posted by: Imperialist September 07, 2005 06:33 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 7 2005, 06:31 PM)
Yeah... we should have declared war to Germany, conquer it and install romanian way of living in all Europe - get real laugh.gif

No, we should have defended our land.

Posted by: dragos03 September 07, 2005 06:45 pm
We should have gone to Vienna and ask for Hungarian land, threatening to declare war on Hungary and Germany if they refused.

Posted by: Zayets September 07, 2005 07:08 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 06:33 PM)
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 7 2005, 06:31 PM)
Yeah... we should have declared war to Germany, conquer it and install romanian way of living in all Europe - get real laugh.gif

No, we should have defended our land.

When you were a kid in the school yard and you had an argument with some other one in your class ,which you knew you can beat the heck out of him, but that one had friends in a major class.And those friends grab your hands,twist them back and call that one saying : come , hit Imperialist now as much as you like! What would you do? Obviously you oppose as much as you can,but they are too strong.And that guy is pouring fist after fist,humiliating,isn't it?
What would you do? I tell you what you will do,wait for the right moment to solve the things once and for all.

I also say that we should fight for our land.But I do not point to the normal Romanians - which they'd fight anytime you call them - I point to the rotten political class back then (not like it changed a lot these days) for leaving these things happening.Romanians were not called to arms.For various reasons.Wether it was the right decision or not,we see today.And I don't suggest anything.

I said previously that I have learned this was diktat.I also said that I don't care if it is called arbitration.Call it as you want,fact remains : on August 30th 1940 Hungary got on top of the things and Germany won this regional conflict without a shot being fired.

Minority or not,Hungarians didn't had any or little problems during or after Northern Transilvania returned to Romania.Were Romanians a minority? Could be,there appears to be a lot of fake data on both sides.Discrimination?
Get real, everybody discrimiates , even the oppressed minorities.Do not for a moment assume that just because they have been discriminated against they won't do the same...afterall they have learned how to do it by being victims themselves.And that applies for both parties.

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 07:12 am
It seems it is difficult for some to realize what was at stake then, the disappearance of very Romania from the map.

QUOTE (Imperialist)
We were extremely lucky that the wheels turned around and the powers that arbitered lost their power to maintain their Order in Europe. Otherwise that Romanian signature on that "Arbitration" would have meant a long bye-bye to Transylvania.


Take Poland. You say we were lucky that the wheel turned around. Now think how lucky the Poles were.



Posted by: Victor September 08, 2005 08:00 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 7 2005, 04:28 PM)

WWI.

Austria-Hungary started WWI. The Treaty was the consequence of the war, not motive for it.

Getting back to 1940, the Treaty of Vienna left both Romania and Hungary discontent and it helped Hitler get a better grip on both countries. He continued to play one against each other until 1944, promissing to both parties that he would review the treaty if they helped Germany more. He also difused a situation that could have become potentially dangerous to Germany, with Soviet troops occupying positions even closer to the Ploiesti oil fields or the fields themselves. Practically he gained more than Hungary did by this treaty.


Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 09:27 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 07:12 AM)
It seems it is difficult for some to realize what was at stake then, the disappearance of very Romania from the map.

The disappearance from the map... ohmy.gif Oh my! OK, lets cede Transylvania and Bassarabia, we dont want Romania to disappear from the map... dry.gif
What appals me is that romanians were ceded easily to foreigners so that other "romanians" could continue to "stay on the map". dry.gif
By the way, Poland disappeared 4 times from the map. But its still there.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu September 08, 2005 09:31 am
Imperialist you think polish people wished their country dissapear from the map ? Somehow it seems you have a suicide wish for this country, why is that ? People DO NOT want war so why do you decide everyone should go fight and die ?

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 09:34 am
QUOTE (Victor @ Sep 8 2005, 08:00 AM)

Austria-Hungary started WWI. The Treaty was the consequence of the war, not motive for it.


I am well aware, thank you. The Romanian participation in the war was the result of Romanian claims that were later put down in the Treaty by virtue of the Entente winning the War.
Romanian claims on Transylvania did not start with the war, war was a means to impose those claims with the force of arms. That was what I meant by Diktat. Hungary was constrained to accept the Treaty as it could no longer resist militarily.
However, it did resist militarily initially, didnt just cede Transylvania.


Posted by: Zayets September 08, 2005 09:39 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 09:34 AM)
However, it did resist militarily initially, didnt just cede Transylvania.

That's what I'm asking.How?Because if we take as reference December 1st when National Assembly decided joining with what was then Romania,then there were no major conflicts ,except the one I have told you.

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 09:40 am
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 8 2005, 09:31 AM)
Imperialist you think polish people wished their country dissapear from the map ? Somehow it seems you have a suicide wish for this country, why is that ? People DO NOT want war so why do you decide everyone should go fight and die ?

Suicide of the country? Can you explain what that means, please?
And what country? Should we understand that Transylvania and Bassarabia were/are expandable, they are not part of the country? They are ceded so that the "country" Vechiul Regat can "stay on the map"?
My point is, try to look it from the other side too, not exclusively from Bucharest. Millions of Romanians were just ceded, because the people in Bucharest didnt think they have to fight for them. What Unity are we talking about then?

QUOTE
People DO NOT want war so why do you decide everyone should go fight and die ?


You're right. Saving one's skin is always far more important in Romania. Why should we fight and die for some romanians in Transylvania and Bassarabia. Let them go, its their problem... dry.gif

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 09:41 am
Imperialist, you said:

QUOTE
By the way, Poland disappeared 4 times from the map. But its still there.


and before:

QUOTE
We were extremely lucky that the wheels turned around and the powers that arbitered lost their power to maintain their Order in Europe. Otherwise that Romanian signature on that "Arbitration" would have meant a long bye-bye to Transylvania.


It seems that as long the historical outcome supports your ideas, you are not readily to use the same arguments, just benefit of the hindsight.




Posted by: Zayets September 08, 2005 09:44 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 09:40 AM)
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Sep 8 2005, 09:31 AM)
Imperialist you think polish people wished their country dissapear from the map ? Somehow it seems you have a suicide wish for this country, why is that ? People DO NOT want war so why do you decide everyone should go fight and die ?

Suicide of the country? Can you explain what that means, please?
And what country? Should we understand that Transylvania and Bassarabia were/are expandable, they are not part of the country? They are ceded so that the "country" Vechiul Regat can "stay on the map"?
My point is, try to look it from the other side too, not exclusively from Bucharest. Millions of Romanians were just ceded, because the people in Bucharest didnt think they have to fight for them. What Unity are we talking about then?

QUOTE
People DO NOT want war so why do you decide everyone should go fight and die ?


You're right. Saving one's skin is always far more important in Romania. Why should we fight and die for some romanians in Transylvania and Bassarabia. Let them go, its their problem... dry.gif

Watch out,this can degenerate,I suggest we stick closer to the topic biggrin.gif
I tell you what,incidentally,politics are made in Bucharest,say Vechiul Regat.If it was Iasi or Cluj ,probably we will say the same about them.Nobody in their right minds are happy with Romanian politics these days.Or back then.

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 09:46 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 09:41 AM)
Imperialist, you said:

QUOTE
By the way, Poland disappeared 4 times from the map. But its still there.


and before:

QUOTE
We were extremely lucky that the wheels turned around and the powers that arbitered lost their power to maintain their Order in Europe. Otherwise that Romanian signature on that "Arbitration" would have meant a long bye-bye to Transylvania.


It seems that as long the historical outcome supports your ideas, you are not readily to use the same arguments, just benefit of the hindsight.

I dont get your point, the 2 quotations show what?

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 09:49 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 12:40 PM)
  You're right. Saving one's skin is always far more important in Romania. Why should we fight and die for some romanians in Transylvania and Bassarabia. Let them go, its their problem...  dry.gif

Imperialist, people fought and died for Bessarabia and Transylvania. It is no need to insinuate otherwise.



Posted by: sid guttridge September 08, 2005 10:27 am
Hi Guys,

There is an old military dictum that may be appropriate here:

"He who fights for everything holds nothing."

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 10:40 am
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 12:46 PM)
I dont get your point, the 2 quotations show what?

I thought it is obvious. You don't use the same acerb argument when dealing with the case of Poland. Obviously Poland is still there because it benefited of the same "luck" Romania had with Transylvania. And in the case of Poland it was not just a part of it, but all of it. The sufferings of the Polish civilians are one of the most terrifying of all the others. But it's no need to think about that when we can propagate our great ideas safe behind a computer.

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 12:22 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 10:40 AM)
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 12:46 PM)
I dont get your point, the 2 quotations show what?

I thought it is obvious. You don't use the same acerb argument when dealing with the case of Poland. Obviously Poland is still there because it benefited of the same "luck" Romania had with Transylvania. And in the case of Poland it was not just a part of it, but all of it. The sufferings of the Polish civilians are one of the most terrifying of all the others. But it's no need to think about that when we can propagate our great ideas safe behind a computer.

QUOTE
The sufferings of the Polish civilians are one of the most terrifying of all the others. But it's no need to think about that when we can propagate our great ideas safe behind a computer.


You are hanging on to the sufferings of the Polish people. Those sufferings were inflicted by the Germans, not by the Polish. The Germans attacked. They were the aggressors. Blaming the polish politicians that refused to be cajoled by the germans for the suffering of the polish during the fight for their country is one of the most defeatist idea I have ever heard.
Also, trying to defend the fact that there was no shot fired for Transylvania and it was simply ceded, and moreover imply that it was some kind of great statesmanship baffles me. Blaming the attacked for resisting and forcing him to make compromises for the sake of "peace" and avoidance of "useless" suffering and preservation on the map, had a name during the late '30s, you know.


Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 12:55 pm
I'll just say that I do find nothing glorious or great in what had happened then, nor do I blame the leading class for the decision taken, at that moment. It's just a dark chapter in the history of Romania.

The rest of your post does not worth answering.

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 01:03 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 12:55 PM)


The rest of your post does not worth answering.

Ofcourse...

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 02:50 pm
Off-topic post deleted

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 03:04 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 04:03 PM)
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 12:55 PM)


The rest of your post does not worth answering.

Ofcourse...

It's like useless talking.

Must we start over with the fact that Poland or Finland in 1939 were not in the hopeless situation Romania was in the summer of 1940? Poland had British guarantees and was promised an Allied ground intervention within two weeks in case of a German attack. Finland was also expecting help from the Scandinavian states and the Allies. In July 1940, Romania not only was alone, but was surrounded by potential enemies.

Posted by: tomcat1974 September 08, 2005 03:51 pm
Not to mention that during 20-40's, the army aquisition program was plagued by many corruption scandals(some of them leading to the Royal House). The army was not in any measure to oppose to any agression with chances of success. Despite this ill equiped army , the Soldiers wanted to fight.

Posted by: Imperialist September 08, 2005 04:01 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 03:04 PM)
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Sep 8 2005, 04:03 PM)
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 12:55 PM)


The rest of your post does not worth answering.

Ofcourse...

It's like useless talking.

Must we start over with the fact that Poland or Finland in 1939 were not in the hopeless situation Romania was in the summer of 1940? Poland had British guarantees and was promised an Allied ground intervention within two weeks in case of a German attack. Finland was also expecting help from the Scandinavian states and the Allies. In July 1940, Romania not only was alone, but was surrounded by potential enemies.

You are only trying to bring more arguments in the defense of a decision that was outrageous to all romanians at the time, and continues to live in infamy even today.
I for one will not try to convince you of anything anylonger. I have finally understood the disgust romanians in Transylvania have for Vechiul Regat. I wouldnt like to live in a region which is non-essential to the "survival" of the country (a country which can very well continue to be, even without the region, ofcourse) "on the map", a region which can be given up when the going gets harder, rather than for the country to commit "suicide" over it. And I also feel sorry for the romanians in Bassarabia.
You are right, its useless talking. "Great ideas" shouldnt be written from the safety of the computer, hopefully they'll pop up in the mind of the politicians when the situation is not safe. Or, maybe not, the instinct being to adopt the easy way out, instinct which can be changed only in times of safety, not at the last moment.
So we should stop.
I dont understand the mentality of fighting only when you have the chance and giving up when the enemies surround you. It must be something genetical, so I will stop telling it to romanians.
I also dont understand why some continue to whine about the "Diktat" when on the other hand they say it would have been foolish to resist the "Diktat" so it was good to sign the Arbitration, though we all knew it was a Diktat...
I have nothing else to say.

take care

Posted by: dragos September 08, 2005 04:06 pm
QUOTE (tomcat1974)
Not to mention that during 20-40's, the army aquisition program was plagued by many corruption scandals(some of them leading to the Royal House). The army was not in any measure to oppose to any agression with chances of success. Despite this ill equiped army , the Soldiers wanted to fight.

The Romanian Army Chief of Staff, General Gheorghe Mihail, pleaded for submitting to the diktat. He said that even if the Army was motivated, the ill equipment and the superiority of the enemy offers no chances of victory. He assesed that the Hungarian Army alone could be defeated, but not the Russians.

Posted by: Zayets September 08, 2005 08:13 pm
It is clear that people have divergent oppinions.Which is no surprise at all.I for one,support the idea of fight.But people knowing me will say that this is no surprise.I put honor above anything,I put pride above my contracts.I don't believe in compromises,yet I believe in settlements.I hate being told what I should think,yet I gladly forget what I don't like.Bottom line,and myself I would like to finish in this thread if possible,it was definitely no award.Was it arbitration?Seen as a football game,that could be the term.But don't forget , Romania did not ask for this arbitration.Hungary was frustrated in their oppinion.
I am a proud Romanian,born in Transylvania,I do not consider Moldavia inferior,I do not consider Banat superior ,I do believe the fact that politics failed us badly.Then and now.But I also say that it is pure incidental that politics was/is made in Bucharest. I would not blame these people there.They are fine people.Like almost all Romanians I know biggrin.gif .
For the ones thinking about the August 30th as a diktat : justice has been made.
For the ones thinking it was an arbitration : good game.
For the ones thinking it was an award : depends on which side you judge.
Good night gents.

Posted by: Iamandi September 09, 2005 06:37 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 8 2005, 04:06 PM)
The Romanian Army Chief of Staff, General Gheorghe Mihail, pleaded for submitting to the diktat. He said that even if the Army was motivated, the ill equipment and the superiority of the enemy offers no chances of victory. He assesed that the Hungarian Army alone could be defeated, but not the Russians.

But, why they not have a short war with Bulgaria. As in football, a gesture of honour... and at the end we can have a 2-1 final score (2 - Soviet U. and Hungaria, and 1 Bulgaria).

Iama

Posted by: dragos September 09, 2005 08:55 am
Let's stay on topic and keep serious. If you want to talk about football open a new topic in General Discussion.

Posted by: sid guttridge September 09, 2005 10:09 am
Hi Imperialist,

What do you think the result would have been if Romania had decided to reject arbitration and fight for Transilvania in 1940?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist September 09, 2005 10:57 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 9 2005, 10:09 AM)
What do you think the result would have been if Romania had decided to reject arbitration and fight for Transilvania in 1940?


Sid, I think I have included that result in the opinions I have expressed on this thread and on the Rejecting the Soviet Ultimatum one.
I will not reopen the discussion now.
If you want to add something, please do.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge September 09, 2005 11:10 am
Hi Imperialist,

Could you please point me to the posts in question?

cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist September 09, 2005 11:53 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 9 2005, 11:10 AM)


Could you please point me to the posts in question?


No, you'd have to read the whole thread. Sorry, I dont have time to search it for you.

Posted by: sid guttridge September 09, 2005 11:54 am
Hi Imperialist,

Well how about just answering my original question in brief?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Iamandi September 09, 2005 12:12 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 9 2005, 08:55 AM)
Let's stay on topic and keep serious. If you want to talk about football open a new topic in General Discussion.

blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif

QUOTE
But, why they not have a short war with Bulgaria. As in football, a gesture of honour... and at the end we can have a 2-1 final score (2 - Soviet U. and Hungaria, and 1 Bulgaria).



I think you don't understand well...

Iama

Posted by: sid guttridge September 09, 2005 04:34 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I have read all your posts on this thread, but I could find no mention of what you think the outcome would have been if Romania had rejected arbitration and decided to fight over Transilvania in 1940.

I have no problem with you not wanting to answer my question, but would it not be more honest simply to say so?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist September 09, 2005 04:48 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 9 2005, 04:34 PM)


I have no problem with you not wanting to answer my question, but would it not be more honest simply to say so?

I think I answered your little question. If you did not like the answer, or did not find something on the thread, tough luck.
If you want to continue the discussion in a serious manner, you can say what you want, and what your point is, without beating around the bush with rhetorical questions.
For me the discussion is closed, I posted my opinions, and I think so did you. If you want to add something reply to one of my posts, or just post what you want to say.

take care


Posted by: sid guttridge September 09, 2005 05:41 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I asked you a straight question.

You chose to be evasive and not to answer.

That is your choice.

It is now a matter of public record.

That is the end of it.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist September 09, 2005 05:58 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 9 2005, 05:41 PM)
I asked you a straight question.

You chose to be evasive and not to answer.

That is your choice.

It is now a matter of public record.

That is the end of it.


A matter of public record is also:

QUOTE
I have nothing else to say.


http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1252&view=findpost&p=38641

I am sure you missed it when you decided to ask me a deliberately rhetorical question. Like I said, if you want to say something regarding the consequences of the refusal of the Arbitration, just say it, damn it stop fooling around.

Posted by: sid guttridge September 10, 2005 10:53 am
Hi Imperialist,

As I asked the question, only I am in a position to say whether it is rhetorical. It was not rhetorical. It was a straight question.

This is not the first time you have hidden behind this entirely spurious defence in order to avoid answering something.

That is your prerogative. You don't have to answer anything you don't want to.

However, you do have an obligation to tell us this straight instead of falsely pretending you had answered it earlier, when you had not, or trying to pretend that the question you were asked was not designed to be answered, which it was.

As far as I can tell so far, you are in favour of Romania fighting rather than accepting arbitration in 1940 without any regard to the likely consequences. It would appear on current evidence that you have not thought your position through as you are not prepared to answer my non-rhetorical question:

What do you think the result would have been if Romania had decided to reject arbitration and fight for Transilvania in 1940?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Imperialist September 10, 2005 11:26 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Sep 10 2005, 10:53 AM)
What do you think the result would have been if Romania had decided to reject arbitration and fight for Transilvania in 1940?

However, you do have an obligation to tell us this straight instead of falsely pretending you had answered it earlier, when you had not, or trying to pretend that the question you were asked was not designed to be answered, which it was.


I did not pretend I answered your question earlier (truly, how was I to answer your question before you asked it?), but I did say:

QUOTE
Sid, I think I have included that result in the opinions I have expressed on this thread and on the Rejecting the Soviet Ultimatum one.


Can you ever let go of an issue? You are unbelievable... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: sid guttridge September 12, 2005 11:53 am
Hi Imperialist,

I rather think that you have not included that result in the conclusions you have expressed on this thread.

Which still leaves my question unanswered:

What do you think the result would have been if Romania had decided to reject arbitration and fight for Transilvania in 1940?

You seem determined that Romania should have fought, but you have yet to offer an opinion on the likely consequences of your recommended course of action.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: dragos September 17, 2005 01:40 pm
QUOTE (Denes)
QUOTE
QUOTE
You should not mix Horthy with Mussolini (or Hitler).
Now that you mentioned the Nuremberg Trials, Horthy was present there only as a witness. He was not convicted as a war criminal.


Why should I not mix them? Both were aggressors looking to exploit the achievements of Germany, for their illusionary imperialistic dreams.

Quote: "Don't forget that (...) there is a different topic."

Would you be so kind to specify what did Horthy actually do? (in the separate topic, of course).
As for the "illusionary imperialistic dreams" quote, I really have no comments. rolleyes.gif It sounds like an excerpt from CVT's or GF's speech.



They were illusionary imperialistic dream because Mussolini wanted to create a new Roman empire and Horthy the old kingdom of Hungary. These plans were illusionary because they were simply not achievable. They were incompatible with the course of civilization.

Horthy actually violated the international laws by taking hold of territories, as a direct consequence of German's aggression in Europe.



Posted by: Dénes May 17, 2006 12:37 am
QUOTE (dragos @ Sep 4 2005, 09:15 PM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ Sep 4 2005, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE
If you know more about this why don't you tell when did Romanian government specifically asked for the advice of Hitler and Mussolini.

I will let you find that out. The Rumanian archives are much closer to you than to me. Anyhow, I did my part in finding a pertinent document that clarifies the issue - no matter if you like it or not.

You came up with this claim, it's your task to prove it. The diplomatic assertions of Ribbentrop are simply not enough.

Finally, I could find the complete, official text of the 2nd Vienna Arbitration, in a book I just received [Horváth, Csaba; Lengyel, Ferenc: 'A Délvidéki hadmüvelet' (Combat Operations in Lower Hungary), 1941 April, Puedlo Publ. (no publication date, but fairly recent). ISBN 963 9477 41 9].

I compared it to the text published in a Rumanian collection of documents I have [Scurtu, Ioan; Mocanu, Constantin; Smârcea, Doina: 'Documente privind istoria României intre anii 1918-1944', Ed. Didactica si Pedagogica, Bucuresti, 1995, page 536].

The main body of the resolution is identical in both books; however, the preamble was left out in the Rumanian version, the missing area being marked with a row of dots.

Here is the original preamble [translated ad verbatim by myself]:
"The Government of the Rumanian Kingdom and the Government of the Hungarian Kingdom turned towards the Government of the Reich and the Government of the Italian Kingdom with the request related to the pending question of territories to be transferred to Hungary to be settled through an arbitration.

This request has been based on the statement formulated by both the Government of the Rumanian Kingdom and the Government of the Hungarian Kingdom in effect that the results of the arbitration will be accepted outright and will be considered as mandatory for both parties.

Acting on this request, Joachim Ribbentrop, the Reich's Foreign Minister, and Count Galeazzo Ciano, Foreign Minister of His Highness, King of Italy and Albania, and Emperor of Ethiopia, after repeated conversations with Mihail Manoilescu, Foreign Minister of the Kingdom of Rumania, reached the following resolution on this day:"

[From here on comes the text published in the aforementioned Rumanian and Hungarian books].

I hope this quote settles the issue of Rumania's official request, alongside Hungary, for this arbitration to take place.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos May 17, 2006 08:45 pm
On 29 August 1940 the Romanian officials were summoned to Vienna where they were informed for the first time of the arbitration (this is why they were surprised). They were recommended to accept the arbitration. The first Crown Council decided to accept the arbitration, while the second Crown Council, within 48 hours submitted to the verdict.

QUOTE
Politica de reconciliere promovata de Carol al II-lea in interior
(fata de legionari) si in exterior (fata de Axa) nu a salvat tara de
izolare. Ungaria, stimulata de acceptarea ultimatumului sovietic de
catre Romania, a inceput sa agite in termeni categorici problema
Transilvaniei, iar Hitler l-a sfatuit la 3 iunie pe rege, sa inceapa
negocierile cu Ungaria si Bulgaria in problema revizuirilor teritoriale.
Tratativele de la Turnu-Severin (16-24 august) nu au condus la
rezultatul dorit de partea maghiara ceea ce a determinat ca ministrii de
externe ai Romaniei si Ungariei sa fie convocati la Viena pentru ziua de
29 august, unde li s-a comunicat ca Ribbentrop si Ciano (ministrii de
externe german si italian) si-au asumat rolul de "arbitri".

[...]

Carol al II-lea , impins de aceste evenimente, adunase la 29 august,
Consiliul de Coroana, in urma caruia s-a redactat comunicatul prin care
se accepta arbitrajul (de fapt dictatul) "in urma unor cereri ultimative
ale Axei".


Source: Revista A.F.T. "Dictatura regelui Carol al II-lea sau despre cum s-a incercat
gestionarea crizei acesteia"

http://www.armyacademy.ro/revista4/rev4_art8.html


The policy of reconciliation promoted by Carol II in internal (towards
legionary movement) and external (towards Axis) affairs did not save the
country from isolation. Hungary, stimulated by the Romanian submission
to the Soviet ultimatum, started to press categorically in the issue of
Transylvania, and Hitler advised king Carol II on 3 June to start
negociations with Hungary and Bulgaria regarding the territorial claims.
The negociations of Turnu Severin (16-24 August) did not satisfy the
Hungarian side, having as a result the summoning of the foreign ministers of Romania and Hungary to Vienna on 29 August, where they were informed that Ribbentrop and Ciano have assumed the role of "arbiters".

[...]

Carol II, under the pressure of the events, summoned on 29 August the Crown Council, which issued the communique of accepting the arbitration (in fact a dictate) "following an ultimative demand of the Axis".

Posted by: dragos03 May 17, 2006 09:21 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 17 2006, 12:37 AM)
I hope this quote settles the issue of Rumania's official request, alongside Hungary, for this arbitration to take place.

Gen. Dénes

Obviously this quote proves absolutely nothing. The preamble of the Diktat is as void as the Diktat itself. Just one more lie in a document that the Romanian side was forced to sign.

If you consider this to be a reliable source, you may as well trust Goebbels' propaganda broadcasts. Their historical value is the same.

Posted by: Dénes May 17, 2006 09:43 pm
QUOTE (dragos03 @ May 18 2006, 03:21 AM)
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 17 2006, 12:37 AM)
I hope this quote settles the issue of Rumania's official request, alongside Hungary, for this arbitration to take place.

Gen. Dénes

Obviously this quote proves absolutely nothing. The preamble of the Diktat is as void as the Diktat itself. Just one more lie in a document that the Romanian side was forced to sign.

If you choose to ignore a historical document, signed by the Rumanian Government and thus obviously an official document of the time - because you happen to dislike it - it's your choice, of course. However, it speaks volumes of your personal view of history.

Remember, however, one cannot pick and choose only what he/she likes from history. Facts still remain facts.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos03 May 17, 2006 09:53 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 17 2006, 09:43 PM)
However, it speaks volumes of your personal view of history.

Remember, however, one cannot pick and choose only what he/she likes from history. Facts still remain facts.

Gen. Dénes

Actually, i think the document that you quoted speaks volumes about your view of history. You are ready to believe any document (even obviously biased and false ones) if it helps to justify your opinions.

Posted by: sid guttridge May 18, 2006 02:37 pm
Hi Guys,

I see no contradiction between the wording Denes gave being accurate and the Vienna Award being a dictat.

It is perfectly clear that, already being in full possession of the disputed territory, Romania had nothing to gain and everything to lose by the proposed German-Italian arbitration. It was therefore only duress that obliged Romania to attend and accept the result.

However, it is unhistorical to talk of the Vienna Diktat in capital letters. Formally speaking, there was no such thing. However, it is perfectly reasonable to talk of the Vienna Award being a dictat as far as Romania was concerned. Hungary might similarly claim that the post-WWI treaty by which it lost Transilvania in the first place was also a dictat for similar reasons.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: 21 inf March 26, 2007 07:59 pm
Only one of the tragic consequences of Vienna diktat, over romanian people.

This is the photocopy of original declaration of my grandfather, survivor of Ip massacre, Salaj county, Transilvania, massacre form the night of 13/14 september 1940, 2 weeks after the diktat.

157 romanian people was assasinated with cold blood.
The youngest romanian was in diapers, the elder age above 80.
Childrens and women killed, even one pregnant woman bayoneted in street, the fetus being pulled out from his mother's belly with bayonet.

My grandfather lost his wife, age 30, and his daghter, age 7, killed by hungarian army, backed up by hungarian people from the village, organised by hungarian baron Farago, from the same village of Ip. The name of the killers can be clearley read on the declaration, being identified by my grandfather in that horible night. The killers was never punished.

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us


Posted by: Dénes August 31, 2010 07:52 pm
Tonight I've heard an interesting interview aired on the main Hungarian radio station (Kossuth), in its daily program 'Without borders". The interview was made with the Rumanian historian Ottmar Trasca, with the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the so-called 'Vienna Resolution'.

During the interview Trasca stated that based on recently discovered diplomatic papers, fond in the archives in Bucharest, it turns out that the Rumanian diplomats actually asked Berlin to come up with a resolution regarding the partition of Transylvania. The reason was that after loosing Bessarabia, the Rumanian diplomats knew well that there was no way they could 'sell' to the Rumanian public the loss of another chunk of territory. Therefore, they thought by asking Berlin (and, secondary, Rome), they would get away with a minimal loss, namely a few Western Transylvanian counties, e.g., Bihor, Satu-Mare and a portion of Arad, totalling about 4000-5000 sq. km. However, on 30 Aug. it turned out that a much larger territory was taken away (about 2/5th of Transylvania). That's why Manoilescu fainted when he saw in Vienna's Belvedere Castle the map with the redrawn borders.

Trasca also mentioned that Hungary received less than the absolute minimum Budapest asked for, and as a direct consequence Count Teleki - the foreign Minister - handed over his resignation to Horthy (which was not accepted, however).

Finally, he clearly stated that based ont these facts, the event in Vienna was anything but a "diktat', and properly it should be called what it was - a Resolution, or Arbitrage. The term 'diktat' - so said he - was used predominantly during the Communist era, and it's still being used by historians of "old school' and their followers.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist August 31, 2010 08:44 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ August 31, 2010 07:52 pm)
Finally, he clearly stated that based ont these facts, the event in Vienna was anything but a "diktat', and properly it should be called what it was - a Resolution, or Arbitrage. The term 'diktat' - so said he - was used predominantly during the Communist era, and it's still being used by historians of "old school' and their followers.

Gen. Dénes

Was that Ottman's conclusion? Good grief! rolleyes.gif

What happened in Vienna has nothing to do with an arbitration since it fails to observe the most basic principles listed in the Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/pacific.asp

Article 2
In case of serious disagreement or dispute, before an appeal to arms, the Contracting Powers agree to have recourse, as far as circumstances allow, to the good offices or mediation of one or more friendly Powers.


Germany and Italy can hardly be called friendly Powers towards Romania. In a normal situation Romania would have called on France and/or Britain to mediate. France was gone, Britain was far away and at war with Germany.

Article 5
The functions of the mediator are at an end when once it is declared, either by one of the parties to the dispute or by the mediator himself, that the means of reconciliation proposed by him are not accepted.

Article 6
Good offices and mediation undertaken either at the request of the parties in dispute or on the initiative of Powers strangers to the dispute have exclusively the character of advice, and never have binding force.


Article 7
The acceptance of mediation cannot, unless there be an agreement to the contrary, have the effect of interrupting, delaying, or hindering mobilization or other measures of preparation for war.

If it takes place after the commencement of hostilities, the military operations in progress are not interrupted in the absence of an agreement to the contrary.



Romania was in no position to refuse Germany and Italy's "mediation" or to ignore their imposed solution. Threats of use of force were made by the "mediators".

Article 37
International arbitration has for its object the settlement of disputes between States by Judges of their own choice and on the basis of respect for law.


Hitler and Mussolini were not judges of international law and hardly did they have any respect for it, nor were they arbitrors at the Permanent Court of Arbitration as per Article 56.

Posted by: Agarici August 31, 2010 09:46 pm
First I have to say that I know Otto Traşcă personally from years (actually he’s a friend of mine) and we had this discussion/dispute several times in the past. By that time, it was rather a debate based on opinions and interpretations, during which, although far for being a professional historian, I held my ground with arguments. Basically he insisted in calling the event an award/arbitration rather then a dictate, but - important notice - emphasizing that it was imposed on Romania. So it was rather more of a terminological disagreement between us.

Our encounters have been rare in the last couple of years (before that we’ve been, at a certain point in time, also neighbors). He’s a first class new generation historian, also known for some less conventional approaches - even though, in my interpretation, this does not make his work divergent from the Romanian "traditional historical school", and it is rather part of his endeavor to bring some "fresh air" in the area and to challenge them with some new interpretations but in a rather constructive way. Part of his strong points are his access to German and Hungarian language literature and documents and his research stages in the Hungarian and German archives (being also of mixed Romanian-German-Hungarian origin, he speaks Hungarian and German from family).

But this claimed breakthrough (if accurate as it was reported by Denes), involving that time Romanian documents, is surprising and puzzling, not to say more. The are at least two important elements of suspicion (not to say more):

The first is raised by the fact that it directly contradicts the memoirs of King Carol (undisputedly the better informed person in Romania by then, and the one who call the game), which were written on a day by day basis and not compiled post facto. In these he is dealing extensively and in detail with the events preceding and from the period of the arbitration/diktat and openly and explicitly manifests his surprise, shock and revolt when he finds out that Ribbentrop claimed that Romania had requested for an arbitration.

The second is raised by the memoirs of both Manoilescu and Valer Pop - the Romanian special envoys at Vienna - (which both repeatedly mentioned their protests in front of Ribbentrop and Ciano towards the formula “the arbiters, at the request of the involved parties…”; I’m sure there are archive documents which includes these official discussions) AND by the fact that the official communiqué, printed and distributed to the press by Romania after the arbitration, mentioned he fact that this was imposed upon its government (I’m quoting from memory - I’m not sure if this was the exact term, but nevertheless the sense was exactly that). The only protest of Ribbentrop to that was not that the fact isn’t true in itself, but that it subminates the idea of a resolution of the conflict and the guarantees offert by the Reich to Romania. Even this objection was withdrawn when the Romanian government announced that the communiqué has already been made public.

Now I have some difficulties in accepting the idea that some “newly discovered archive documents” (?) can revert the signification of all those mentioned above.

I tend to think that everything that has to be said on this topic is said, and the arguments are both abundant and “common-sense overwhelming”, even though some intend to re-resuscitate a already settled debate. I would recommend Denes trying to obtain acces to these memorial volumes/documents, which I think (unless their authenticity is contested) will settle the dispute for him too.

Posted by: 21 inf September 01, 2010 03:08 am
It was a diktat as sure as hell, back then in august 1940. One should read also Valer Pop's "Bătălia pentru Ardeal", which contains a well documented memoires about the discussion with hungarian side BEFORE 30 august 1940. Although he was retired from political life back in 1940, he was asked by Carol II to be the head of romanian delegation who conducted the discussions with the hungarian side, as he was considered one of the best "connaisseur" about Transylvanian realities. The infos that Valer Pop gives are very valuable in order to make an idea about how the discusion were made, with the unfortunate ending from 30 august 1940. Even if he proposed a exchange of populations and teritories, based on number of population, economical, political and geographycal datas, it is interesting to see the point of view of the hungarian side who participated.

In the light of this kind of a discussion, if in 1940 it was a diktat or an arbitration, I would be very curious to see what mr. Traşcă and others would have to say about Trianon peace treaty: it was an arbitration or a diktat. At Trianon the great powers aknowledged only what the romanian transylvanian plebiscite said on 1st of december 1918: breaking bonds with Hungary and Union with Romania. Nota bene: in 1st december 1918 it was a plebiscite, so it was a popular will! Is that a diktat? This kind of popular will doesn't exist in 1940, nor from hungarian transylvanians, nor from romanians. It is at least a cinism to say that for Romania the 30 august 1940 german supervised decision was an arbitration.

Anyway, in the backstages of all this 30 august 1940 Viena diktat was Germany. Transylvania was give to Hungary as a "insurance" that Romania will join Axis without destroying it's oil fields from Ploiesti as she did in 1916. Dismembered, Romania had no chances to fight if invaded and was subject anytime to german "blackmail". The romanian oil fields were put into discussion by Germany before France was invaded by germans and romanians declared to them that they have no intention to destroy them. But after the France fall in 1940, germans captured the entire french secret services archive, discovering the documents that romanians WILL destroy the oil fields if germans entered Romania. Looking as lyers, romanians were "punished" by germans with Transylvania handover to hungarians. Germans sugested that they will "help" Romania regain Transylvania after war, if Romania join Axis and secure the so much needed oil fields for Germany.

Posted by: contras September 02, 2010 05:00 pm
QUOTE
Romania had no chances to fight if invaded and was subject anytime to german "blackmail".


It was a blackmail for both Romania and Hungary, a blackmail made to keep in Axis, whatever will happen.

Posted by: MMM September 02, 2010 05:48 pm
Indeed! I don't know if this was already said in here, but Ribentropp (as a foreign affairs minister, that is) stated to some diplomat, "we have to keep both irons hot in the fire and mold them as our necessities will ask". (Romanian - "să ţinem amândouă fiarele în foc şi să le folosim după cel mai bun interes al Germaniei"). And it worked, but also in the sense that both countries spent a lot of energy and propaganda against the Diktat/Award, as Romania wanted back what it was taken and Hungary wanted the rest of Transylvania, as well...

Posted by: Dénes April 02, 2011 08:10 am
There is a new book on the topic going to be published this Summer:
The Second Vienna Award and Hungarian-Romanian Relations, 1940-1944
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780880336826/The-Second-Vienna-Award-and-Hungarian-Romanian-Relations-1940-1944?b=-3&t=-26#Bibliographicdata-26

The author is a new generation historian from Transylvania, who studied Hungarian, Rumanian and German sources.
Hopefully, the book will shed a neutral light on this sensitive topic.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I will wait for the softcover edition, as 39 Euros is a bit steep for me.

Posted by: 21 inf April 02, 2011 10:53 am
A good book is Bătălia pentru Ardeal, by Valer Pop, who was the chief of romanian delegation on the first meetings with the hungarian part, in Oltenia, months before 30 august 1940.

Posted by: Dénes November 11, 2014 01:09 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ April 02, 2011 02:10 pm)
There is a new book on the topic going to be published this Summer:
The Second Vienna Award and Hungarian-Romanian Relations, 1940-1944
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780880336826/The-Second-Vienna-Award-and-Hungarian-Romanian-Relations-1940-1944?b=-3&t=-26#Bibliographicdata-26

The author is a new generation historian from Transylvania, who studied Hungarian, Rumanian and German sources.
Hopefully, the book will shed a neutral light on this sensitive topic.

Gen. Dénes

I enclose a few excerpts from this reference book on this (sensitive) topic:

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

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user posted image

General data on the book:

The Second Vienna Award and the Hungarian-Romanian Relations, 1940-1944. Béni L. Balogh
589 pages, hardcover.
Published by Atlantic Research and Publ. Distributed by Columbia University Press, New York, 2011.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. See also the discussion in "The best Romanian historical book" topic: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=6913

Posted by: dragos November 11, 2014 03:08 pm
Regarding the affirmations on page 3, about the suggestion that this act was not compulsory or forced upon Romania. It is taken out of context and the same he could say about the Soviet ultimatum of 1940, since Romania agreed then he could say it was not forced rolleyes.gif

The claim is separated from context of 1939-1940 international events including the most crucial moment of the fall of France and the carving of different countries by the bullies Hitler and Stalin.

Romania did not want this award or diktat because she did not want the events leading to this. It's like saying she was not content with result of Trianon and wanted to make an exchange of territory and population with Hungary. If this was the case, why wasn't this "award" done in the inter-war period?

Posted by: Dénes November 11, 2014 04:43 pm
The situation, which lead to what was/is generally known as the '2nd Vienna Arbitration' (or Dictate, if you want to use Rumanian terminology), was very complex, indeed.

Here is how I would sum up the events (regarding solely Transylvania) in seven simple steps (Caveat! One should not use hindsight or today's politics to judge those events!):
1, Rumania gained a disputed territory (the whole historical Transylvania) during the turbulent post-WW 1 times. This territory gain was then legalised internationally by the Trianon Peace Treaty of 1920.
2, Hungary wanted back the lost territory, and worked towards this goal (revision). Rumania obviously wanted to keep it.
3, With the defeat of Poland, France (and the cornering of the UK), Rumania lost its traditional allies. By contrast, Hungary started to openly arm from late 1938, and also increased diplomacy for peaceful or military revisionism.
4, Rumania had to align itself with the Powers of the "New Order" (Germany and Italy) if it wanted to survive.
5, With the Soviet Union recovering Bessarabia, Hungary saw the right time to recover Transylvania, by either peaceful means (dialogue), or military way. The talks at Turnu Severin lead to nowhere. The only remaining solution for Hungary was war.
7, Rumania did not want to engage in war, knowing that the USSR might intervene to get the whole Moldavia, eventually Bulgaria Dobrudzha, and not knowing what would Germany do. Therefore asked for an arbitration by the two European Powers (Germany and Italy), the real power brokers at that time (besides the Soviet Union). Same did Hungary, hoping to avoid a war it might not win after all (they also did not know how would Germany react, as Rumania was more a preferred strategic ally to Hitler than Hungary). [see note at the end]
6, Germany did not want an open conflict in the rear area, while was gearing up to the anti-Soviet war. Therefore, agreed to an arbitration mandatory for both parties (the 2nd one).
7, Neither side was happy with the outcome of the arbitration, and both sides geared up to regain control over the lost part of Transylvania. This shaped their policy towards Germany (and the Eastern Front) throughout the entire war, both sides courting Hitler all along. At the end, neither side managed to influence Hitler to revise the original decision made at Vienna, on 30 August 1940.
The rest, we know.

I am looking forward to your opinion on this sensitive and interesting topic (I truly hope that enough time have passed since then, so we can talk about the historical aspects without involving politics or various sentiments, which invariably end up to hard feelings and in a locked topic).

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Here is the English version of the Arbitration: http://legal.un.org/riaa/cases/vol_XXVIII/407-412.pdf
Note: Please note the first sentence, omitted when the document was published in Rumania.

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 11, 2014 05:06 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ November 11, 2014 04:43 pm)
The situation, which lead to what was/is generally known as the '2nd Vienna Arbitration' (or Dictate, if you want to use Rumanian terminology), was very complex, indeed.

Here is how I would sum up the events (regarding solely Transylvania) in seven simple steps (Caveat! One should not use hindsight or today's politics to judge those events!):
1, Rumania gained a disputed territory (the whole historical Transylvania) during the turbulent post-WW 1 times. This territory gain was then legalised internationally by the Trianon Peace Treaty of 1920.
2, Hungary wanted back the lost territory, and worked towards this goal (revision). Rumania obviously wanted to keep it.
3, With the defeat of Poland, France (and the cornering of the UK), Rumania lost its traditional allies. By contrast, Hungary started to openly arm from late 1938, and also increased diplomacy for peaceful or military revisionism.
4, Rumania had to align itself with the Powers of the "New Order" (Germany and Italy) if it wanted to survive.
5, With the Soviet Union recovering Bessarabia, Hungary saw the right time to recover Transylvania, by either peaceful means (dialogue), or military way. The talks at Turnu Severin lead to nowhere. The only remaining solution for Hungary was war.
7, Rumania did not want to engage in war, knowing that the USSR might intervene to get the whole Moldavia, eventually Bulgaria Dobrudzha, and not knowing what would Germany do. Therefore asked for an arbitration by the two European Powers (Germany and Italy), the real power brokers at that time (besides the Soviet Union). Same did Hungary, hoping to avoid a war it might not win after all (they also did not know how would Germany react, as Rumania was more a preferred strategic ally to Hitler than Hungary). [see note at the end]
6, Germany did not want an open conflict in the rear area, while was gearing up to the anti-Soviet war. Therefore, agreed to an arbitration mandatory for both parties (the 2nd one).
7, Neither side was happy with the outcome of the arbitration, and both sides geared up to regain control over the lost part of Transylvania. This shaped their policy towards Germany (and the Eastern Front) throughout the entire war, both sides courting Hitler all along. At the end, neither side managed to influence Hitler to revise the original decision made at Vienna, on 30 August 1940.
The rest, we know.

I am looking forward to your opinion on this sensitive and interesting topic (I truly hope that enough time have passed since then, so we can talk about the historical aspects without involving politics or various sentiments, which invariably end up to hard feelings and in a locked topic).

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Here is the English version of the Arbitration: http://legal.un.org/riaa/cases/vol_XXVIII/407-412.pdf
Note: Please note the first sentence, omitted when the document was published in Rumania.

Mr Denes, the "arbitration" of Vienna was a Diktat, evan you or hungarian historiography don't like this word. And it is not about the terminology but a fact. And this is generally accepted by the historiography, not only romanian.... excuse me, "rumanian".

Posted by: Dénes November 11, 2014 06:33 pm
Can you prove your strict words, Mr. Focsa? One by one, please.

In anticipation,

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 12, 2014 04:32 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ November 11, 2014 06:33 pm)
Can you prove your strict words, Mr. Focsa? One by one, please.

In anticipation,

Gen. Dénes


Prove what ? That Vienna "arbitration" was a diktat ?
Sorry, I have no time for this.

Posted by: Florin November 12, 2014 05:53 am
Hi Denes,

Considering that a weakened Romania after World War One was not willing to give away even a little piece of Transylvania in the aftermath of that war, an that was the reason for all that fighting in 1919 - 1921, why a stronger Romania would have given away a half of Transylvania in 1940, without being forced into that ?
Yes, Romania was stronger in 1940, but this time Hungary was not alone.
In the eyes of Hitler, Hungary was always "the good guys".
Romania not only was an enemy in WWI, but she had alliance treaties with France, Poland and Czechoslovakia. Being allied with France, she was also allied with Great Britain. Should I remind that 3 of these countries were already enemies of the Reich by August 1940, and the 4th would have also been if it would not have been stabbed in the back by her own allies ?
The worst thing Romania could have done (in the eyes of the Nazi leadership) was to let the Polish Army to evacuate through Romania, and also to allow the gold of Poland to reach Great Britain.
You know the words of that British Air Marshall during The Battle of Britain : "We need any pilot we can get". More than 150 Polish pilots took part in The Battle of Britain - the biggest number from all foreigners, including those from the Commonwealth. All of them arrived in Great Britain through Romania.
So, to make it simple: Romania had to be punished for her past.
Romania accepted to give that half of Transylvania for being afraid to be invaded by Germany.
Should I remind you that in that very moment Soviet Union was an ally of Germany, and they collaborated like brothers in Poland ?
For the Romanian leadership of that moment, it was a very fresh memory.
I do not blame that Romanian government for trying to avoid a simultaneous war with Germany, Soviet Union, Hungary and Italy (Yugoslavia and Bulgaria were also official allies of Germany - should I add them ?).
Romania survived as a functional state (I did not write "independent state").
Even if not independent, at least Romania did not end torn in pieces by the victors, like Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece.
Why did I write all these ? You know them very well.
Was my introduction really needed ? It seems so.
You are making the confusion between the will to avoid a catastrophic war, having as obvious result the end of Romania as state, and the will of a country to give away a big part of her territory in peaceful times.

Posted by: dragos November 14, 2014 03:14 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ November 11, 2014 06:43 pm)
Here is how I would sum up the events (regarding solely Transylvania) in seven simple steps

I fully agree with your list of events.

I have not enough information about what the Romanian diplomats did expect from the meeting at Vienna. From the document in English that resulted after this event, it is expressed that Romania wanted to accept anything that Germany and Italy would "arbitrarily" chose, but from other sources and claims it appears that Romanian side expected some negotiations to take place and not just be shown the map and sign or else.

Posted by: Radub November 14, 2014 04:13 pm
QUOTE (Daniel Focsa @ November 11, 2014 05:06 pm)
not only romanian.... excuse me, "rumanian".

In English, the word "Rumania" is perfectly acceptable. It is included in the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the authority on English language.

Similarly, the word "Rumania" is included in the Webster English Dictionary, which is the standard American English dictionary.

If you wish to imply that "Rumania" is a "Horthyst" (whatever that is... smile.gif ) or some kind of Hungarophile expression, then you should know that the Hungarian word for Romania is "Románia".

Radu

Posted by: Dénes November 14, 2014 06:15 pm
That's right, Radu. I could not have said it better myself.

Off topic. When I started writing in English in the mid-1980, Rumania was a widely used form of the English (not Rumanian, or româna !) version of the country's name. Nowadays, its usage diminished; nevertheless, it remains a perfectly accepted spelling version, particularly when talking about the history of the country (NB. The spelling 'Romania' was started to be used first in the USA, only from the 1970s, it did NOT exist during WW 2, or earlier).
Therefore, it does NOT mean any sort of "disrespect" from my side against the country or its people, only consistency in usage. No UK or US publishing house where I published books or articles have ever objected to the usage of this spelling form.

Finally, if Mr. Focsa is so upset by this spelling form of the name, with a 'u', I ask him why he does not object the pronunciation of the country's name in French - a language I believe he claims he speaks - where the name, Roumanie, is pronounced with a 'u'...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Radub November 14, 2014 07:01 pm
Foreign languages have a pervasive way of spelling places differently. Like for example, calling ""London" Londra, "Wien" Vienna/Vienna, "Munchen" Munich and "Bucuresti" Buhcharest/Bukarest. The "Battle of Blindheim" is known in the UK as "Battle of Blenheim". The Americans insist on spelling Ploiesti "Ploesti". That is just the way the world is. Foreigners, eh? smile.gif
Radu

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 14, 2014 07:53 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ November 14, 2014 07:01 pm)
Foreign languages have a pervasive way of spelling places differently. Like for example, calling ""London" Londra, "Wien" Vienna/Vienna, "Munchen" Munich and "Bucuresti" Buhcharest/Bukarest. The "Battle of Blindheim" is known in the UK as "Battle of Blenheim". The Americans insist on spelling Ploiesti "Ploesti". That is just the way the world is. Foreigners, eh? smile.gif
Radu

"Ploesti" is an older form for Ploiesti, I have seen Ploesti everywhere in Romanian, in ww2 papers, maps, etc. Maybe this is the reason.

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 14, 2014 08:18 pm
"Vineri, 30 august <1940>

Vine, pe urma, stirea hotararilor, care intr-adevar, sunt ceva nemaipomenit. Ni se traseaza o noua granita (...) Cand am auzit aceasta, am fost ca lovit de o maciuca in cap si indignarea mea n'a mai avut culme. (...) Urmand impulsul meu de lupta, l-am si chemat pe <generalul Gh> Mihail spre a lua masurile necesare.Totusi, trebuie foarte multa chibzuinta, am eu dreptul de a impinge Tara la un dezastru sigur ? (...)

La ora 20, soseste Nindi de la Viena, aducand protocoalele. Povesteste atmosfera de acolo si felul in care nici n'a avut vreo putinta de aparare. El considera ca daca am fi rezistat la injonctiunile Axei eram stersi de pe suprafata pamantului". (...) Suntem siliti a inghiti cele ce ni s-au intamplat si sa lasam istoriei sa judece daca este bine. " (...)

Azi de dimineata a fost un incident cu Fabricius, care a protestat impotriva comunicatului de azi-seara, cerand sa se stearga cuvintele cari arata ca totul ne-a fost impus. Ar dori sa zicem ca am primit arbitrajul de buna voie. S-a refuzat, spunandu-i ca este prea tarziu, caci s-a si publicat".

(Carol al II-lea, Intre datorie si pasiune. Insemnari zilnice, vol II, Bucuresti, Edit. Sansa, 1996, pp 250 - 252).

I think it is very clear, there was no arbitration, Romania was forced to accept the diktat.

Posted by: Petre November 15, 2014 10:02 am
http://transilvaniareporter.ro/esential/dictatul-de-la-viena-dincolo-de-wikipedia-decizia-de-acceptare-a-arbitrajului-a-fost-salutara-altfel-dispaream-de-pe-harta/

Posted by: Radub November 15, 2014 10:14 am
QUOTE (Petre @ November 15, 2014 10:02 am)
http://transilvaniareporter.ro/esential/dictatul-de-la-viena-dincolo-de-wikipedia-decizia-de-acceptare-a-arbitrajului-a-fost-salutara-altfel-dispaream-de-pe-harta/

Very interesting article.
Radu

Posted by: Dénes November 15, 2014 12:43 pm
Very interesting article, indeed. The most accurate, by far, what I read from a Rumanian historian (I assume he considers himself Rumanian, if he talks like "ai nostri"). Thanks, Petre, for sharing.

I met Ottmar at the military archives in Pitesti many years ago, where he was part of a group of historians from Cluj who studied for a certain topic, as beneficients of a generous grant (I was there on my own money and time). We discussed, in details, many issues, including controversial ones, like the 2nd Vienna Award. I was impressed by his point of view and knowledge. However, there were, and still are, points where I believe, based on the documents I saw and books I read, that he is not completely right. Nevertheless, I am glad he bases his conclusions primarily on documents and facts, not sentiments, and not simply copying others.

I am looking forward to reading more of his publications.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes November 15, 2014 12:51 pm
QUOTE (Daniel Focsa @ November 15, 2014 02:18 am)
(Carol al II-lea, Intre datorie si pasiune. Insemnari zilnice, vol II, Bucuresti, Edit. Sansa, 1996, pp 250 - 252).

I think it is very clear, there was no arbitration, Romania was forced to accept the diktat.

I am very surprised to see that your main "proof" is a diary, even if it was King Carol the II's.

I am also surprised that you were not taught at the University of History you attended that personal views on events, included in diaries, memoirs, recollections, etc., cannot be taken as absolute proof for certain historical events. These personal views tend to be, and usually are, biased, later on altered - as was, for example, Mihai Antonescu's on the same topic. They are useful in understanding the atmosphere of those times, certain behind-the-scene moves, etc. However, these sources can easily be used as justification for the next generations for certain historical events, and can be modified easily to fit a certain agenda. That's why I do not rely, for example, on the memoirs of Horthy...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 15, 2014 03:34 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ November 15, 2014 12:51 pm)
QUOTE (Daniel Focsa @ November 15, 2014 02:18 am)
(Carol al II-lea, Intre datorie si pasiune. Insemnari zilnice, vol II, Bucuresti, Edit. Sansa, 1996, pp 250 - 252).

I think it is very clear, there was no arbitration, Romania was forced to accept the diktat.

I am very surprised to see that your main "proof" is a diary, even if it was King Carol the II's.

I am also surprised that you were not taught at the University of History you attended that personal views on events, included in diaries, memoirs, recollections, etc., cannot be taken as absolute proof for certain historical events. These personal views tend to be, and usually are, biased, later on altered - as was, for example, Mihai Antonescu's on the same topic. They are useful in understanding the atmosphere of those times, certain behind-the-scene moves, etc. However, these sources can easily be used as justification for the next generations for certain historical events, and can be modified easily to fit a certain agenda. That's why I do not rely, for example, on the memoirs of Horthy...

Gen. Dénes

Mr Denes, I do not can spend my time to make a serious study to proof you or others on a forum an well known and obviuous fact, that Vienna 30 august was really a diktat. If you are not convinced on this fact, you may lokk yourself for referebnce books on this subject, if you not trust romanian historian, go to archives, go to sources. (Any need to give me a lesson about how an historian must consider his sources, because I am historian. A diary is or may be a important source, of course among all others. My proffesors in History Faculty teached me that a resercher must study, coroborate and consider ALL the sources: archives, published documents, memoires, diaries, letters, contemporary press, oral testimonies, and of course all is already published on the main subject) Not like Mr Antoniu who published a book 'Aviatia romana in prima zi de razboi" (2007) with a bibliography based ONLY on archives, but NOTHING ELSE.
About 30 august 1940, others historians already did it, in last 70 years. So, I only quote few extracts on the king's diary, that's all, for it's interest. Of course this is an very important document. Do you want now I study an entire bibliography on this subject to demonstrate here that the world is round ? Sorry, I have other projects, for example concerning aviation's history. wink.gif

Posted by: Agarici November 15, 2014 05:06 pm
Reading the excrepts from Balogh L. Beni was rather a waste of time. They brought nothing new, only general affirmations, some of them normative statements without being backed in archives - at least not in the scanned fragments. All of us involved into the discussion know the general facts, at least this is what I hope. But apparently Denes did not even read carefully my previous posts, a fact which upsets me, because it took minutes/hours from my time to bring forward FACTS, otherwise accessible in the literature, to prove him that he is wrong. I do not insist on the term DICTAT because I want to, I prefer it, or I think this is what it was, but because of some clear facts.

Before (and after) the negociations at Turnu-Severin, the two delegations were, more or less, emphasizing two different perspective. The Romanians insisted on the ethnic/populational perspective (reuniting the Hungarian community with Hungary and the Romanian enclaves with Romania, even by using population exchange) and the Hungarian delegation emphasized the territorial thesis, invoking “historical rights”. The negotiations were broken by the Hungarians, which offered satisfaction to the Romanian leaders (see the memoirs), because it seemed to confirm for the international public opinion that Romania was willing to discuss and solve the Hungarian claims, which proved to be unreasonable. Now, dear Denes, please use and quote Romanian or German documentary resources to contradict or elaborate one of the following facts (I do not mention the Hungarian documents because they were not directly a part of it):
- The letter sent by Ribbentrop, asking the Romanian government to send its envoys to Vienna, mentioned a discussion about the Romanian-Hungarian problem, BETWEEN HUNGARIANS AND ROMANIANS, and said nothing about an arbitration
- Romania DID not ask for arbitration. The fact that the arbitration was mentioned by Ribbentrop at Vienna generated protests of both Manoilescu and Pop, the amazement of the Romanian ambassadors present there and of the Romanian administration in Bucharest, and it is mentioned in the memoirs and accounts of the direct and indirect participants. Please do mention ANY Romanian-issued document from the German archives indicating an arbitrage request from Romania
- The decision, and its timing, was imposed on the Romanian delegation by sheer pressure and blackmail, constituting an ultimatum. A member of the Romanian delegation protested, indicating that even the Soviets have granted a longer time-span to the Romanian government
- The Romanian communiqué mentioned, deliberately and expresis verbis, that the decision was IMPOSED under threat on the Romanian government, and refused any request to change that. Here, again, apparently Mr. Beny L Balogh got it wrong.

Now, unless you present some documentary materials to infirm the facts mentioned by me, which are relatively well-known by many average historians, I will not bother to answer anymore to any reply which would only show that you disagree with me on the sole basis of your mood or opinion.

Posted by: Agarici November 15, 2014 05:09 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ November 15, 2014 12:51 pm)
QUOTE (Daniel Focsa @ November 15, 2014 02:18 am)
(Carol al II-lea, Intre datorie si pasiune. Insemnari zilnice, vol II, Bucuresti, Edit. Sansa, 1996, pp 250 - 252).

I think it is very clear, there was no arbitration, Romania was forced to accept the diktat.

I am very surprised to see that your main "proof" is a diary, even if it was King Carol the II's.

I am also surprised that you were not taught at the University of History you attended that personal views on events, included in diaries, memoirs, recollections, etc., cannot be taken as absolute proof for certain historical events. These personal views tend to be, and usually are, biased, later on altered - as was, for example, Mihai Antonescu's on the same topic. They are useful in understanding the atmosphere of those times, certain behind-the-scene moves, etc. However, these sources can easily be used as justification for the next generations for certain historical events, and can be modified easily to fit a certain agenda. That's why I do not rely, for example, on the memoirs of Horthy...

Gen. Dénes


A very supperficial observation. What is written, on that account, in the diary, corroborates with MANY other written accounts (Gigurtu, Manoilescu, Pop, the members of the Crown Council). The fact that you (choose to) ignore them does not mean that they do not exist.

EDIT: by the way, the term "dictat" was not a communist invention. It was used, for the first time, in the crown councils from August 1940, as a reaction to what happened in Vienna.

Posted by: Daniel Focsa November 16, 2014 12:47 pm
Another interesting and almost unknown testimony, Rosa Waldeck, American journalist, born German (Jew ?), who was in Bucharest in 1940, with many connections among diplomats:

"Nimic nu parea sa tulbure linistea romanilor pana vineri 30 august. In dupa-amiaza aceea l-am intalnit pe dr Neubacher care arata foarte palid. Imi spuse ca Hitler hotarase ca romanii vor trebui sa cedeze 45 000 kilometri patrati din Transilvania. (...)
Se pare ca Ribbentrop si Ciano nici nu s-au ingrijit sa treaca prin procedura de arbitraj ci au pus in fatab ungurilor o propunere care nu admitea nicio discutie, iar romanilor le-a dat un ultimatum in sensul ca trupele germane, ungare si rusesti se vor pune in miscaree daca nu acceptau arbitrajul in termen de sase ore".

(RG Waldeck, Athenee Palace, traducere din limba engleza de Ileana Sturdza, Bucuresti, Humanitas, 2000, pp 124 - 125.)


Posted by: Agarici November 16, 2014 08:22 pm
Dear friends, I sent to Dragos an extensive series of scans from Mircea MUŞAT, Ion ARDELEANU, Romania dupa Marea Unire, vol. II, Editura Ştiinţifică şi Enciclopedică, Bucureşti, 1986. It includes mainly documents, official accounts and declarations, fragments from memoirs - of course (and unfortunately) in Romanian. I asked him to post them here, or on a different web host. Hope this would further clarify some aspects related to the Vienna award/dictat.

Posted by: Agarici December 15, 2014 09:30 pm
The scans from Mircea MUŞAT, Ion ARDELEANU, Romania dupa Marea Unire, vol. II, Editura Ştiinţifică şi Enciclopedică, Bucureşti, 1986 are online. many many thanks to Dragos.

Reading them is a must before pushing of with the thesis that the second Wienna award was an arbitrage, and not a diktat.

http://imgur.com/a/DUoJm#0

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