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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Ancient, Medieval and Modern History > On the origins of Romanian language


Posted by: sid guttridge August 12, 2005 09:12 am
Hi Dragos,

I thought that there was no written evidence of the Romanian language until the Middle Ages. If this is so, what are the sources for such words as "voievodate", "voievozi", "criezate", "criezi", etc.? In structure, the two former look as though they may be related to the Slavic root word for "leader".

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: dragos August 12, 2005 09:28 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 12:12 PM)
Hi Dragos,

I thought that there was no written evidence of the Romanian language until the Middle Ages. If this is so, what are the sources for such words as "voievodate", "voievozi", "criezate", "criezi", etc.? In structure, the two former look as though they may be related to the Slavic root word for "leader".

Cheers,

Sid.

According to the DEX, the words cneaz and voievod are indeed of Slavic origin. Pheraps because they were first mentioned in Slavic/Orthodox chronicles?

http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=cneaz&source=

http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=voievod&source=

Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 09:33 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 09:12 AM)
Hi Dragos,

I thought that there was no written evidence of the Romanian language until the Middle Ages. If this is so, what are the sources for such words as "voievodate", "voievozi", "criezate", "criezi", etc.? In structure, the two former look as though they may be related to the Slavic root word for "leader".

Cheers,

Sid.

No, probably the earliest written evidence of romanian language is an inscription at Basarabi-Murfatlar dated to 992 A.D.

80% of romanian language lexicon is made up of latin words, and 15% of slavic ones. 160-170 ones have been identified to be dacian.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 12, 2005 10:48 am
Hi Imperialist,

Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?

At the same time the Bulgarians were employing Russian grammarians to root out Latin-derived words and replace them with Slavic words. This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 11:28 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 10:48 AM)


Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?

At the same time the Bulgarians were employing Russian grammarians to root out Latin-derived words and replace them with Slavic words. This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.

Hahaha...
Thats funny. So what you are implying is that the 80% of the latin words of Romanian lexicon were the result of purification of slavic words and the creation of latin-derived words! Its linguistically erroneous. Most latin words present in Romanian language are basic words. Caine, paine, casa, camp, lana, mana, avere etc. They are not the product of latin-derived invention in the 19th century... rolleyes.gif

Again, I see you see everything connected to national identity the result of a conspiracy to enforce that national identity.

BTW, the so-called Latinists that tried to introduce newly invented latin-french-derived words for the commonly used words in the 19th century did not succeed. Somehow people continued to call a matchstick "chibrit", not "de-parete-frecatoriu" like the french influenced latinists tried to propose. "De-parete-frecatoriu" was totally ludicrous. Languages cannot be purified, people cannot be made to use some invented words while they have an easier alternative at hand. Not to mention when they complicate the language unnecessarily.

QUOTE
This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.


An example, please.

take care

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 12, 2005 12:05 pm
QUOTE
Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?


LMAO ! That is a good joke smile.gif come on, see the big picture - abyone belives that those frenchie (who weren't even french, it was a romanian movement aimed at pointing out the latin origin of our language and NOT replacing ti with a latin one) so how would those "french grammarians" teach the sheppard far in the mountains, a new language ? You should come to Romania and visit all parts of it - you will notice there is only one language spoken as oposed to other countries, we have no dialect - however people from different parts of the country speak with different accent but they do speak same language = no one taught the peasants and sheppards a new language in 100 years.. lets be serious.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 12, 2005 01:16 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Nope. I implied nothing. I asked you an open question. Furthermore, you haven't answered it.

You want examples of language purification? How about place names? A couple of years ago Bombay was changed to Mumbai. Twenty years ago Salisbury became Harare. What is Cetatea Alba called today? When did -Napoca get added to Cluj?

How about the Academie Francaise? It has a linguistic section that spends much of its time fighting the importation of English words. For example, a couple of decades ago the French public apparently adopted their own word for a female TV announcer - "speakerine". The academy squeezed it out as too Anglo-Saxon, even though the word doesn't actually exist in English. Other words resisted were "drugstore", "computer" and "bulldozer". Personally I don't blame the French for this, but one cannot pretend that language purification is not happening.

Is there an equivalent "Academia Romana"? If so, does it have similar linguistic police duties?

In Romania, wasn't there a deliberate effort to keep the spelling of Romania with an "a" even though a change in orthography in the rest of the language would have spelt in with an "i"? (i.e. as in vinatori/vanatori?). (An open question, because I may be wrong on this one).

In Moldova they returned from Cyrillic to Latin script only a decade ago.

Language purification is going on all the time.

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 02:21 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 01:16 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

Nope. I implied nothing. I asked you an open question. Furthermore, you haven't answered it.

You want examples of language purification? How about place names? A couple of years ago Bombay was changed to Mumbai. Twenty years ago Salisbury became Harare. What is Cetatea Alba called today? When did -Napoca get added to Cluj?

How about the Academie Francaise? It has a linguistic section that spends much of its time fighting the importation of English words. For example, a couple of decades ago the French public apparently adopted their own word for a female TV announcer - "speakerine". The academy squeezed it out as too Anglo-Saxon, even though the word doesn't actually exist in English. Other words resisted were "drugstore", "computer" and "bulldozer". Personally I don't blame the French for this, but one cannot pretend that language purification is not happening.

Is there an equivalent "Academia Romana"? If so, does it have similar linguistic police duties?

In Romania, wasn't there a deliberate effort to keep the spelling of Romania with an "a" even though a change in orthography in the rest of the language would have spelt in with an "i"? (i.e. as in vinatori/vanatori?). (An open question, because I may be wrong on this one).

In Moldova they returned from Cyrillic to Latin script only a decade ago.

Language purification is going on all the time.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
Nope. I implied nothing. I asked you an open question. Furthermore, you haven't answered it.


You implied that

QUOTE
At the same time the Bulgarians were employing Russian grammarians to root out Latin-derived words and replace them with Slavic words. This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.


At the same time with what? With the romanians purifying their language, right? I was referring to you implying the fact that it was a common thing, and the romanians were doing and at the same time, the bulgarians.

As for the open question I think I did answer. If it wasnt clear, the answer was no.

QUOTE
You want examples of language purification? How about place names? A couple of years ago Bombay was changed to Mumbai. Twenty years ago Salisbury became Harare. What is Cetatea Alba called today? When did -Napoca get added to Cluj?


Harare, Mumbai. Give me a break! You talked about language purification.
And you talked about the bulk 80% of latin words in the Romanian language, not place names. Place names are not common nouns whose origin can be traced to Latin, nor are they 80% of romanian lexicon.

QUOTE
How about the Academie Francaise? It has a linguistic section that spends much of its time fighting the importation of English words. For example, a couple of decades ago the French public apparently adopted their own word for a female TV announcer - "speakerine". The academy squeezed it out as too Anglo-Saxon, even though the word doesn't actually exist in English. Other words resisted were "drugstore", "computer" and "bulldozer". Personally I don't blame the French for this, but one cannot pretend that language purification is not happening.


laugh.gif
Fighting the "importation" of new words is not only futile, but it also has nothing to do with what you asked in your original question. You referred to the invention and introduction of new latin-derived words supposed to replace existing words.
THAT has nothing to do with trying to preserve the language THAT is an outright accusation of INVENTING/manufacturing the language.

QUOTE
In Romania, wasn't there a deliberate effort to keep the spelling of Romania with an "a" even though a change in orthography in the rest of the language would have spelt in with an "i"? (i.e. as in vinatori/vanatori?). (An open question, because I may be wrong on this one).


Again, this is a long shot from custom-building new words to suit some political goal in the 19th century. Your example is about phonetics, not lexicon.

QUOTE
In Moldova they returned from Cyrillic to Latin script only a decade ago.


Ha! And who brought in the Cyrillic? Was that some kind of natural event too, like everything else that happens to a romanian...?

QUOTE
Language purification is going on all the time.


It doesnt work. And it the kind of purification you meant in the original post doesnt happen.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 12, 2005 03:48 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I think I may reasonably claim that I am the greater authority on what I implied than you are. After all, I did write the question in the first place. Will you be answering it?

As I understand it, in the 19th century both Romanians and Bulgarians employed foreign scholars (in the former case French, in the latter case Russian) to help construct their first grammars and dictionaries because they lacked such specialists themselves. Is this not so?

Many place name changes ARE language purification. For example, Bombay was just an English rendition of Mumbai, it was not an English invention. Its recent change was a matter of linguistic purification. The same is true in Zimbabwe of dozens of place names, i.e. Que Que/Kwekwe, Umtali/Mutari, Mtoko/Mutoko, etc..

You brought up the fact that 80% of the Romanian lexikon was Latin based. I only asked you when you were referring to. Still no answer. ("No" is not, in fact an answer to this question.)

You asked for one example of the purification of languages. I gave you several. However, one thing I cannot do is make you LIKE the answers.

My Romania/Rominia example (sorry, I can't render circumflexes) was not about phonetics. It was about the over riding of phonetics for nationalist reasons.

It doesn't matter who brought in Cyrillic to Moldova. It was part of a deliberate policy to modify the language and national identity of Basarabians/Moldovans and its reversal was an example of purification. That was all you asked for.

All languages require new words to cover new phenomena. I would be very interested to hear of any Slavic-derived words that have entered the Romanian language in the last 180 years and to compare it with a list of Latin-derived words. What, for example, are the Romanian words for car, or train, or television, or aeroplane, or railway station, all of which were required for the first time by the Romanian language since the mid 19th Century? I imagine they are all of Romance and/or Greek, not Slavic, in origin. I don't actually know the answer, so I am taking a risk here. Correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers,

Sid.









Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 04:20 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 03:48 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

I think I may reasonably claim that I am the greater authority on what I implied than you are. After all, I did write the question in the first place. Will you be answering it?

As I understand it, in the 19th century both Romanians and Bulgarians employed foreign scholars (in the former case French, in the latter case Russian) to help construct their first grammars and dictionaries because they lacked such specialists themselves. Is this not so?

Many place name changes ARE language purification. For example, Bombay was just an English rendition of Mumbai, it was not an English invention. Its recent change was a matter of linguistic purification. The same is true in Zimbabwe of dozens of place names, i.e. Que Que/Kwekwe, Umtali/Mutari, Mtoko/Mutoko, etc..

You brought up the fact that 80% of the Romanian lexikon was Latin based. I only asked you when you were referring to. Still no answer. ("No" is not, in fact an answer to this question.)

You asked for one example of the purification of languages. I gave you several. However, one thing I cannot do is make you LIKE the answers.

My Romania/Rominia example (sorry, I can't render circumflexes) was not about phonetics. It was about the over riding of phonetics for nationalist reasons.

It doesn't matter who brought in Cyrillic to Moldova. It was part of a deliberate policy to modify the language and national identity of Basarabians/Moldovans and its reversal was an example of purification. That was all you asked for.

All languages require new words to cover new phenomena. I would be very interested to hear of any Slavic-derived words that have entered the Romanian language in the last 180 years and to compare it with a list of Latin-derived words. What, for example, are the Romanian words for car, or train, or television, or aeroplane, or railway station, all of which were required for the first time by the Romanian language since the mid 19th Century? I imagine they are all of Romance and/or Greek, not Slavic, in origin. I don't actually know the answer, so I am taking a risk here. Correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
As I understand it, in the 19th century both Romanians and Bulgarians employed foreign scholars (in the former case French, in the latter case Russian) to help construct their first grammars and dictionaries because they lacked such specialists themselves. Is this not so?


Oh yes, Sid, romanians were idiots that needed French scholars to compile Romanian dictionaries and to construct the first Romanian grammars... rolleyes.gif What exactly is your source for this c**p, excuse my "french".

I see that you never heard of Samuil Micu (1745-1806) and Gh. Sincai (1754-1821) and Petru Maior.
They were some of the romanian idiots who dwelved into the analysis of the romanian language, alas! without the aid of french or british scholars...

QUOTE
  My Romania/Rominia example (sorry, I can't render circumflexes) was not about phonetics. It was about the over riding of phonetics for nationalist reasons


WHAT nationalist reasons?

QUOTE
You brought up the fact that 80% of the Romanian lexikon was Latin based. I only asked you when you were referring to. Still no answer. ("No" is not, in fact an answer to this question.)


Indeed, your questions was:

QUOTE
Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?



Given the erroneous premise of your question (underlined), I dont know if I should even take into consideration your question. Not until you clarify what French grammarians and what replacements you referr to, and what is your source for that info.
Your questions asks me whether I am talking about the romanian language before or after an event that has never taken place!!! Revise your position.

Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 05:25 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 12 2005, 04:52 PM)



Sid - I never heard at history classes or romanian languge and literature classes (and I did speak a lot especially with my history teacher) about what you said with the french teachers. However, we did have some bright minds who were able to do this instead of calling help from another country. It is true that most of them had a very good education and spoke french..

Hi Mytzu!
I think Sid is making a big linguistical confusion and a historical one too (regarding the french scholars helping write dictionaries and grammar books etc..)
Linguistically there is no doubt that the Romanian language is a latin one. Its latinity is proven at the level of basic inherited words as well as in the grammar structure. The declension of nouns, the conjugated verbs, the genders, the phonetics, the morphology, are fundamentally latin.

take care

Posted by: Jeff_S August 12, 2005 05:48 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 12 2005, 04:52 PM)
Car = masina (machine)

Pronounced very much like the Russian word, no? But all it means in this case is that both languages were borrowing from the French.

As an outsider, I'm amazed at how overheated this thread has become. Sid's not suggesting Romanian is not a Latin language, and he is not calling anyone idiots. Why is it such heresy to suggest that a country's language is influenced by its geography, and that some states in the 1800s looked to the dominant powers of the day as models?

Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 06:03 pm
QUOTE (Jeff_S @ Aug 12 2005, 05:48 PM)
Why is it such heresy to suggest that a country's language is influenced by its geography, and that some states in the 1800s looked to the dominant powers of the day as models?

No heresy there, but thats not what he suggested, IMO.
There are slavic, turkish and greek origin words in the romanian language too. But they are in small proportions. The bulk is made up of latin words.
In my view Sid questioned the fact that the latin bulk is inherited from latin, insinuating that the language was deliberately "purified" in the 19th century to look more like latin in order to serve the nationalistic conspiracy.
Its one thing to talk about neologisms, and another about deliberately uprooting and replacing words to suit a political goal.
If I misunderstood Sid's insinuation, I apologise, but he should name his sources for that info so as to better understand what was all about.

take care

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 12, 2005 06:21 pm
QUOTE
Its one thing to talk about neologisms, and another about deliberately uprooting and replacing words to suit a political goal.


We do have many words of slavic origin - but as it was stated before 80% are of latin origin. I do not think we may call the slavic words "neologisms" because they have been used for a long time. Except for hungary we are surounded by slavik countries so it is only natural to borrow something from them smile.gif but as Imperialist said, there was no plot to transform romanian language in a latin one during the 19th century as Sid has sugested, this is the main problem - maybe Sid had something else in mind when he wrote what he wrote but we all understood he said romanian language was latinized during 19th century to serve political goals.

Posted by: johnny_bi August 12, 2005 08:04 pm
QUOTE ("Sid")
How about the Academie Francaise? It has a linguistic section that spends much of its time fighting the importation of English words. For example, a couple of decades ago the French public apparently adopted their own word for a female TV announcer - "speakerine". The academy squeezed it out as too Anglo-Saxon, even though the word doesn't actually exist in English. Other words resisted were "drugstore", "computer" and "bulldozer". Personally I don't blame the French for this, but one cannot pretend that language purification is not happening.


In this case , to me , it seems that it is not about purifying (changing the ordinary existing words) but about protecting the language (the new words, sometime unuseful new words).

Those words "imported" from English are quite a few.
Those guys from the French Academy know something... The phenomena they are trying to prevent is actually a different one. ... The case of France is irrelelvant.. I can bring to your attention an other case: Québec. Here , many ordinary French words are replaced by English words... Few examples : Je veux "checker" instead of Je veux vérifier, or "Je cherche un(e) job" - in this case it is not decided yet if the "French" word "job" is actually F (une) or M(un), etc - as you can see these words are not new words but ordinary words...
Of course, in Québec, they try to protect the French language and this policy brings some strange results: for example the word email (widely used in Romania for example) is replaced by "courriel", the word "spam" is replaced by "pourriel", etc, etc... The effect is very strange : they can change the new words but they can not prevent the people from using the new and unnecessary English words which are pouring into the French language...

It is hard to believe that the Romanian scholars would have been so efficint in changing the base of the Romanian language... Even if they had done such thing, it would have been impossible for the rural Romanian people to change vocabulary...

Posted by: Imperialist August 12, 2005 08:50 pm
Well guys, I dont want to imply that Sid necessarily used this "source" for that idea, but I found the same thing being said here:

QUOTE

"But upon closer examination, the linguistic studies also fail to support the Daco-Roman
theory. Many Latin words in the modern Rumanian language are late acquisitions: to buttress the
Daco Roman theory, in the 19th century, there was a conscious effort to latinize the Rumanian
language
."


pg. 4 in "Separating Myths and Facts In the History of Transylvania" by "Dr." Sandor Balogh; Corvinus Library [where else... dry.gif ]

take care folks

Posted by: sid guttridge August 13, 2005 11:05 am
Hi Imperialist,

This debate won't advance very far if you resume inventing my posts. Where did I ever call any Romanians "idiots" or claim that "British scholars" contributed in any way to the Romanian language? Please stick to what I actually wrote and stop inventing it.

What nationalist reasons? "Romania" looks more Roman than "Rominia".

For an English-language reference to the "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language in the 19th Century, see:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html

There is no disgrace in having French grammarians helping. The whole modern concept of Grammar was formulated by the French Port-Royal Grammarians in the late 17th Century and French Grammarians and their methods were later employed widely, not just in Romania. You must also remember that the French began pushing the concept of the natural unity of Latin-based language during the 19th Century because they saw these countries as their natural constituency in power politics. They were thus keen to promote conformity amongst Latin countries.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge August 13, 2005 11:07 am
Hi Imperialist,

This debate won't advance very far if you resume inventing my posts. Where did I ever call any Romanians "idiots" or claim that "British scholars" contributed in any way to the Romanian language? Please stick to what I actually wrote and stop inventing it.

What nationalist reasons? "Romania" looks more Roman than "Rominia".

For an English-language reference to the "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language in the 19th Century, see:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html

There is no disgrace in having French grammarians helping. The whole modern concept of Grammar was formulated by the French Port-Royal Grammarians in the late 17th Century and French Grammarians and their methods were later employed widely, not just in Romania. You must also remember that the French began pushing the concept of the natural unity of Latin-based language during the 19th Century because they saw these countries as their natural constituency in power politics. They were thus keen to promote conformity amongst Latin countries.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge August 13, 2005 11:24 am
Hi D-13th Mytzu,

I have never questioned that there were Romanian intellectuals capable of such work. If you use the link I gave to Imperialist above referring to "Re-Latinization", you will find some of them mentioned.

But in the early 19th Century, before the country was consolidated, and when the overwhelming majority of Romanian-speakers were illiterate, the pool of such people was small. France had a vastly bigger, literate population and arguably the world's leading linguistics specialists, certainly with regard to Romance languages. Just as Romania had to import technological expertise to build its railways or military expertise to raise a regular army, it also had to import intellectual expertise, either in the form of experts or ideas, in more academic fields as well. Linguistics was one such field and France was the most logical source.

None of this reflects on the inherent intellect of Romanians. It merely reflects the circumstances of a time when the centuries-long lack of a Romanian state and foreign rule had marginalised most Romanian-speakers and reduced Romanian intellectual activity to a very small and vulnerable elite heavily influenced by France, the senior fellow-Latin state.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 13, 2005 11:32 am
P.S. Nor have I ever suggested that Romanian was not at its core a Romance language. That is Imperialist's invention in order to give himself an invented target to attack.

However, I do claim that there was a conscious and deliberate "Re-Latinisation" effort in the early 19th Century to make Romanian even more distinctly Latin.

See:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 13, 2005 11:46 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 13 2005, 11:05 AM)
Hi Imperialist,

This debate won't advance very far if you resume inventing my posts. Where did I ever call any Romanians "idiots" or claim that "British scholars" contributed in any way to the Romanian language? Please stick to what I actually wrote and stop inventing it.

What nationalist reasons? "Romania" looks more Roman than "Rominia".

For an English-language reference to the "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language in the 19th Century, see:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html

There is no disgrace in having French grammarians helping. The whole modern concept of Grammar was formulated by the French Port-Royal Grammarians in the late 17th Century and French Grammarians and their methods were later employed widely, not just in Romania. You must also remember that the French began pushing the concept of the natural unity of Latin-based language during the 19th Century because they saw these countries as their natural constituency in power politics. They were thus keen to promote conformity amongst Latin countries.

Cheers,

Sid.


QUOTE
For an English-language reference to the "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language in the 19th Century, see:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html


Like I said in my first reply to your question, the Latinists (the 19th c. movement to latinize words) failed.

Your source says:

QUOTE

During the 1800's Romanian linguists made an effort to re-Latinize their language.

This shows us the great desire to make a "pure" Latin-based language.

It also shows the resolution that they had to face, that if those proposed changes were made it would change the language into something other than their own Romanian.


The source does not clarify the issue. Was the effort successful? Was the movement widespread? How many words did they change?

QUOTE

In the first half of the 19th century there began an "Enlightenment" in Romania. Books from the west by authors such as Racine, Moliere, and Lamartine were translated into Romanian. At this time a Romanian writer and theorist, Ion Heliade R|dulescu wrote his opinion on the purification of the Romanian literary language.


I think you confuse things, Sid.
Heliade Radulescu is well known for his efforts in the elimination of the chirillic ortography and the introduction of the phonetic principle in orthography, in the literary language. ( Gramatica Romaneasca - 1828 )
Those word were written in the chirillic orthography, but they were not slavic words!!!
Could it be that this "purification" is confused by you and other foreigners with the elimination of slavic words?
This has nothing to do with the 80%-15% ratio.

p.s. and from what I know H.R. was not part of the Latinist movement that I referr too;

QUOTE

There is no disgrace in having French grammarians helping.
The whole modern concept of Grammar was formulated by the French Port-Royal Grammarians in the late 17th Century and French Grammarians and their methods were later employed widely, not just in Romania.


p.s.2 -- again, I dont know who are the french scholars that drafted (or help draft) the first Romanian dictionaries and grammar books, that you mention.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 13, 2005 11:50 am
Hi Johnny Bi,

I agree with most of what you wrote.

The Academie Francaise is more engaged in keeping pure than purifying the French language. However, to do so it has to find alternatives to mostly Anglo-Saxon words that are already in use by the French population. In that sense they are engaged in purification.

As a matter of minor interest, the Academie Francaise approved the Quebecois term "courriel" for use in metropolitan French insted of "E-mail" only a couple of years ago.

The Romanian case is rather different. Illiteracy amongst Romanian-speakers in the early 19th Century almost universal. Until then Romanians had all been ruled by foreign states with no public education systems. They were almost all rural peasants, while the population of the future country's cities was largely foreign-speaking (Hungarian, German, Jewish, Russian, Turkish, Greek, even Armenian).

Thus when the Romanian precursor states began to gain independence, coalesce and set up state institutions, there was a great opportunity to influence the language's composition and development because for the first time literacy became a national goal. With so few Romanian-language books available, it must have been relatively easy to influence the teaching of Romanian literacy through centrally directed national policy. For example, is modern Romanian not based on the Bucharest dialect? This presumably means that it superceded local dialects within the public education system.

Cheers,

Sid

Posted by: Imperialist August 13, 2005 12:03 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 13 2005, 11:50 AM)
Hi Johnny Bi,

I agree with most of what you wrote.

The Academie Francaise is more engaged in keeping pure than purifying the French language. However, to do so it has to find alternatives to mostly Anglo-Saxon words that are already in use by the French population. In that sense they are engaged in purification.

As a matter of minor interest, the Academie Francaise approved the Quebecois term "courriel" for use in metropolitan French insted of "E-mail" only a couple of years ago.

The Romanian case is rather different. Illiteracy amongst Romanian-speakers in the early 19th Century almost universal. Until then Romanians had all been ruled by foreign states with no public education systems. They were almost all rural peasants, while the population of the future country's cities was largely foreign-speaking (Hungarian, German, Jewish, Russian, Turkish, Greek, even Armenian).

Thus when the Romanian precursor states began to gain independence, coalesce and set up state institutions, there was a great opportunity to influence the language's composition and development because for the first time literacy became a national goal. With so few Romanian-language books available, it must have been relatively easy to influence the teaching of Romanian literacy through centrally directed national policy. For example, is modern Romanian not based on the Bucharest dialect? This presumably means that it superceded local dialects within the public education system.

Cheers,

Sid

QUOTE
For example, is modern Romanian not based on the Bucharest dialect? This presumably means that it superceded local dialects within the public education system.


Bucharest dialect? Local dialects? There is no such thing Sid.

QUOTE
Illiteracy amongst Romanian-speakers in the early 19th Century almost universal. Until then Romanians had all been ruled by foreign states with no public education systems. They were almost all rural peasants, while the population of the future country's cities was largely foreign-speaking (Hungarian, German, Jewish, Russian, Turkish, Greek, even Armenian).


Sid, illiteracy means not knowing to read and write. It doesnt mean you dont know how to speak. The very fact that the romanian language survived in such conditions and under foreign occupation is proof of its inherited nature. In the romanian villages romanian was spoken from father to son, with no need for direct instructions from the "center".
"Almost universal" -- thats like what, bigger than "almost planetary" or? Whats the reference system here?
Also, what does "largely" means in the population issue?


QUOTE
With so few Romanian-language books available, it must have been relatively easy to influence the teaching of Romanian literacy through centrally directed national policy.


False.




Posted by: Imperialist August 13, 2005 02:19 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 13 2005, 11:24 AM)


None of this reflects on the inherent intellect of Romanians. It merely reflects the circumstances of a time when the centuries-long lack of a Romanian state and foreign rule had marginalised most Romanian-speakers and reduced Romanian intellectual activity to a very small and vulnerable elite heavily influenced by France, the senior fellow-Latin state.


The first romanian language document that has survived the test of time is "Scrisoarea lui Neacsu" (1521).
The first book in romanian was "Catehism Luteran" (1544).
Coresi's printing house starting from 1557, released 9 romanian language prints.
Other romanian language books were "Alexandria" and "Istoria lui Mihai-Voda, sin Patrascu-Voda, carele au facut multe razboaie cu turcii pentru crestinatate".

Starting with the 17th century the first romanian language law books appear.
"Pravila de la Govora" (1640) in Wallachia and "Pravila Aleasa" in Moldova. This meant the recognition of romanian as the official language of the feudal states. (though there lacked a unified Romanian state, there were states inhabited by a romanian majority).

Another important book in Romanian was "Carte Romaneasca de Invatatura" (1643) [approximate translation -- romanian learning book]

Numerous editions were printed of these romanian books, and they did circulate in romanian territory. Intellectual activity was not as small as you might think. Romanian language was not as marginalised as you might imagine.

In 1673 Dosoftei translates in romanian "Psaltirea".

In 1688 the first edition of the entire Bible is translated in romanian. "Biblia de la Bucuresti"


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 13, 2005 07:44 pm
QUOTE
What nationalist reasons? "Romania" looks more Roman than "Rominia".


Was our country name EVER spelled Rominia ? not in the 20th century for sure, anyone has any info on this ?

Sid, as I said before: I never heard of french intelectuals building the foundation of romanian grammair and I did pay attention in classes especially at history classes smile.gif do you have any such example ?


Posted by: Imperialist August 13, 2005 08:22 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 13 2005, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE
What nationalist reasons? "Romania" looks more Roman than "Rominia".


Was our country name EVER spelled Rominia ? not in the 20th century for sure, anyone has any info on this ?


I dont think so. In communist era books on the first pages of the book, it appears as "Romania". Romanian is also spelled "roman", not "romin".
In books that deal with 19th century documents or speeches, the term that appears in those documents or speeches is "Romania".
Thats all I have at the moment.

take care



Posted by: Dénes August 13, 2005 09:41 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Aug 14 2005, 02:22 AM)
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 13 2005, 07:44 PM)
Was our country name EVER spelled Rominia ? not in the 20th century for sure, anyone has any info on this ?


I dont think so. In communist era books on the first pages of the book, it appears as "Romania". Romanian is also spelled "roman", not "romin".

user posted image
[Source: http://www.banivechi.home.ro/1947-1965.htm]

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist August 13, 2005 10:18 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 13 2005, 09:41 PM)

user posted image
[Source: http://www.banivechi.home.ro/1947-1965.htm]

Gen. Dénes

From 1948-1955 the coins show "Romania".

Some examples from before that period:

http://www.muzeulfilatelic.ro/index.php?p=photo_detail&id=43

http://www.muzeulfilatelic.ro/index.php?p=photo_detail&id=76 [here one has to stare close to see that its Romania, dated 1926]

http://www.muzeulfilatelic.ro/index.php?p=photo_detail&id=74 [here its Romania too, the date 1918 is written by hand]

http://www.muzeulfilatelic.ro/index.php?p=photo_detail&id=75 [here Romania is better visible, 1926]






Posted by: Dénes August 13, 2005 11:24 pm
I just wanted to illustrate, Imperialist, that you were wrong also in this statement of yours, as based on the official coins, the country's name was spelled 'Rominia' at least between 1955-1961.

Take care,

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: dragos August 13, 2005 11:32 pm
Even if true, the time frame 1955-1961 is insignificant for the topic.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 13, 2005 11:43 pm
Might that specific time frame has anything to do with the fact we were overrun by comunists who wanted to impose their views on us ? I do remember our parents telling stories that at some point the russians were trying to prove romanians are not latins but are of slavic origins smile.gif

Posted by: dragos August 13, 2005 11:47 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge)
In Romania, wasn't there a deliberate effort to keep the spelling of Romania with an "a" even though a change in orthography in the rest of the language would have spelt in with an "i"? (i.e. as in vinatori/vanatori?). (An open question, because I may be wrong on this one).


While I am not knowledgeable in linguistics, I think the only effort in this respect was actually in the opposite direction. After the communist regime came to power, after the war, the spelling with "î" instead of "â" in the vocabulary was forced.

Posted by: Imperialist August 14, 2005 12:07 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 13 2005, 11:24 PM)
I just wanted to illustrate, Imperialist, that you were wrong also in this statement of yours, as based on the official coins, the country's name was spelled 'Rominia' at least between 1955-1961.

Take care,

Gen. Dénes

I have no problem with you considering my statement wrong, though I think it was fairly cautionary and not a decisive ruling on the issue. I just offered the view offered by the sources I had at that moment.
My interest was directed especially towards the 19th century documents and speeches I mentioned, documents published in the second half of the 20th. Given Sid's statements regarding the changes of Rominia in Romania made for nationalists reasons, I was curious whether Rominia was written in that time-frame, only to be changed in the transcriptions of the documents by the nationalist plotters.
I found the links with the stamps, which disproved that possibility.
The second thing was to put a timeline on that communist era books and their frontpages.
However, I dont think I would have found books from the 1950s in my bookshelf.
Nor was I aware of that particularity in the 1955-1961(64?) period.
So if the cost of finding that out is for that whole post to be considered erroneous, and not incomplete, I have no problem with it.

The only problem in my view is with the "also in this statement" part.
Are you referring to other wrong statements on this thread or in general?

take care

Posted by: Carol I August 14, 2005 06:23 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 14 2005, 12:24 AM)
I just wanted to illustrate, Imperialist, that you were wrong also in this statement of yours, as based on the official coins, the country's name was spelled 'Rominia' at least between 1955-1961.

According to http://www.geocities.com/romaniancoins/10bani1955.html, the orthographic changes of 'România' into 'Romînia' (as well as 'român' into 'romîn' etc.) lasted from 1954 until 1963. They thus appear on all coins issued within this period.

Posted by: johnny_bi August 15, 2005 02:31 am
QUOTE ("Sid")
As a matter of minor interest, the Academie Francaise approved the Quebecois term "courriel" for use in metropolitan French insted of "E-mail" only a couple of years ago.


There is a big difference between Quebec and France, because Quebec is much more exposed to the "danger" of bringing unnecessary English words within the French language. So they adopted couriel, pourriel, dépaneur, etc and it seems that those words really work...

QUOTE ("Sid")
With so few Romanian-language books available, it must have been relatively easy to influence the teaching of Romanian literacy through centrally directed national policy. For example, is modern Romanian not based on the Bucharest dialect?


Well, it is hard to say that. As far as I know, I heard once from a teacher that the "most" Romanian language is spoken somewhere around Brasov. In the same time do not forget about "Scoala Ardeleana" which had a huge influence on what we call today the Romanian language. And they were not from Bucharest.

QUOTE ("Sid")
However, to do so it has to find alternatives to mostly Anglo-Saxon words that are already in use by the French population. In that sense they are engaged in purification.


As far as they can find a word such courriel (which is widely use in Quebec for example) that really WORKS, I see no problem... Same for télécopieur, dépaneur, etc... Those words really work. This could prove that it is not necessary to brutaly embrace a word just because at the beginning there is no equivalent word in your language...


QUOTE ("Sid")
There is no disgrace in having French grammarians helping. The whole modern concept of Grammar was formulated by the French Port-Royal Grammarians in the late 17th Century and French Grammarians and their methods were later employed widely, not just in Romania. You must also remember that the French began pushing the concept of the natural unity of Latin-based language during the 19th Century because they saw these countries as their natural constituency in power politics. They were thus keen to promote conformity amongst Latin countries.


As far as I know the French guys began to latinize their language as soon as the 16th century or even sooner, far before the word "nation" was invented... There was a big difference between the French language spoken in the north (due to the Germanic influence - Francs, Normands, etc) and the language spoken in the south - influenced more by the Latin and maybe Italian languages... So they tried to replace the northern spoken language which had a more "Germanic" sound with the more soften southern French language... Aparently they succeded... Those times, I suppose that "the light" came from Italy... it was more desirable to approach the language to the Latin and Italian than to German language...
As for Romanians, you know also that there were many problems with the excesses of "frenchisation" of the Romanian language... During the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, in Romania, the French language was the reference, not the Latin language... Tell me about the Latin words introduced those times (not the French words - most of them neologismes) by "force" and which non-Latin words were eliminated? Many words were eliminated, but this was a natural phenomena... I could give you an example about a Latin based name: Paulina. How many young ladies have today this name ??? Almost none, because Paulina just sounds... so old... There are many words (especially tools and objects) used today only by the elders- non-Latin based words which will disappear within the next 20 years because those tools or objects will cease to exist... What remains, it will be the hard core of the language, common words, etc many of them being Latin... Other words will be invented or assimilated from other languages, etc... This is a natural phenomena which is present not only in Romanian language.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 11:39 am
Hi Guys,

I have found the following source on the current composition of the Romanian vocabulary:

http://romania.ibelgique.com/langue-roumaine.htm

It gives the following breakdown of the origins "of the current composition of the Romanian vocabulary":

20% Latin
38.4% French
14% Slav
3.7% Turkish
2.4% Greek
2.3% German
2.4% classical Latin
1.7% Italian

In total, 63% is derived directly or indirectly from Latin.

However, of interest here is the high French input - 38.4%.

Perhaps Imperialist would care to explain where this high French content came from, given that France had little contact, let alone influence, on what became Romania before the 19th Century?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Iamandi August 15, 2005 11:52 am
Sid, in history of our country, like a poor armed country encircled ... in some ways, we desperatly hook about France. And this was not only a millitary action, we generalized that... if you understand what i want to say.

biggrin.gif Now we don't say "furculision", we evolved... now we say "furculishon" biggrin.gif

One "apropos" to an old satiric theatre scene.

Iama

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 11:53 am
Hi Imperialist,

What, no Romanian dialects?

Linguists apparently recognise three south of the Danube and five north (from Muntenia, Moldova, Ardeal, Banat and Oltenia). Want a source?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 12:00 pm
Hi Iamandi,

I am making no value judgement on Romania and Romanians here. It makes good sense to adopt loan words from related languages. My own language (English) is like a sponge in this regard.

What I don't understand is why Imperialist is trying to pretend that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language was not widespread from the early 19th Century and that the main source was French.

I am as patriotic as the next man, but it serves no useful purpose to deny self evident facts, particularly when they are in no way damaging to one's country.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 12:02 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 11:39 AM)
However, of interest here is the high French input - 38.4%.

Perhaps Imperialist would care to explain where this high French content came from, given that France had little contact, let alone influence, on what became Romania before the 19th Century?


I dont think the issue ever was about lack of contact or influence.

The issue was french scholars coming in Romania to write the first Romanian dictionaries and grammar books in the 19th century...
You did not provide examples of those scholars, which in everybody's knowledge here, were inexistent doing the things you said they did, nor did you withdraw that dubious claim.

p.s. I will check those procentages too...

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 12:07 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 12:00 PM)


What I don't understand is why Imperialist is trying to pretend that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language was not widespread from the early 19th Century and that the main source was French.


Because that was not a forced, deliberate, nationalist plot to make the language look more like Latin, as you claimed.
Dont transform my reaction to that absurd claim into a statement that the romanian language did not interact and borrow organically/naturally from other languages.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 12:23 pm
Hi Imperialist,

So you now recognise that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language DID occur.

Progress!

Now, does your "interaction" and "borrowing organically/naturally" include the work of the Academia Romana, which was set up in the image of the Academie Francais, to foster the Romanian language and produce its defining vocabularies, dictionaries and grammars?

To me, in a country where no such institution exists, this look likes official intervention. What do you think?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 12:43 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 11:53 AM)
Hi Imperialist,

What, no Romanian dialects?

Linguists apparently recognise three south of the Danube and five north (from Muntenia, Moldova, Ardeal, Banat and Oltenia). Want a source?

Cheers,

Sid.

South of the danube there are macedo-romanian, megleno-romanian and istro-romanian dialects.
These are true dialects, as you would need a dictionary and a book of grammar to make sense of what those folks say. Apart from a few words that can be understood, those dialects are languages by themselves.

In contrast, a romanian from Bucharest could travel in the dialect regions in Romania that you mention, without needing neither a dictionary nor the comprehension of new grammar rules.

We dont have something like a Patois dialect, which is:

QUOTE
Les patois ont leurs propres mots et aussi des constructions particulières, une syntaxe, une grammaire.


But since the actual definition of the dialect referrs to different prononciations also, yes from that point of view one can say that the romanian language has dialects, with the noted differences.

take care







Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I don't actually know when the first Romanian dictionary was written. In the British Library catalogue there is mentioned the "Petite Dictionaire francaise-roumain" by Jean Rizo of 1837. Perhaps there are older Romanian dictionaries. Doubtless you can tell me?

Another interesting Frenchman you might care to follow up is Jean-Alexandre Vaillant, who apparently wrote on Romanian linguistics within a multi volume work titled "Romania" published in 1844 - before there even was a state of Romania or an Academia Romana. (He also seems to have something to do with the adoption of Romania's flag.)

A couple of other French linguistic specialist of the 19th century acknowledged on the Academia Romana website are Jules Gillieron and Antoine Meillet.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 01:06 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 12:23 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

So you now recognise that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language DID occur.

Progress!

Now, does your "interaction" and "borrowing organically/naturally" include the work of the Academia Romana, which was set up in the image of the Academie Francais, to foster the Romanian language and produce its defining vocabularies, dictionaries and grammars?

To me, in a country where no such institution exists, this look likes official intervention. What do you think?

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
So you now recognise that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language DID occur.

Progress!


You havent clarified what you understand by "re-latinisation". Wasnt "purification", "rooting out words", "for nationalist reasons" etc.? I dont think I ever "recognised" such baloney.


QUOTE

Now, does your "interaction" and "borrowing organically/naturally" include the work of the Academia Romana, which was set up in the image of the Academie Francais, to foster the Romanian language and produce its defining vocabularies,
dictionaries and grammars?
  To me, in a country where no such institution exists, this look likes official intervention. What do you think?


I am shocked by your attitude. Its utterly arrogant and patronising. Borrowing organically/naturally happens today too, in all languages, and it has nothing to do with Academies. The Academies are not word import firms... dry.gif
And you missed your target by about 3 centuries:

QUOTE

Academies in the older sense - meaning schools of higher learning - had existed in these principalities since the 16th century. The most active and long-lasting were the academies of the princedom instituted in Bucharest (around 1689) and Iasi (in 1707) which trained the Christian intellectual elite in South Eastern Europe and the Near East and would become the first universities in Romania in the 19th century.


http://www.acad.ro/academia2002/acadrom/pag_ist.htm

It also seems you have missed my post where I made a short list of romanian language books.

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 01:13 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 12:47 PM)


I don't actually know when the first Romanian dictionary was written. In the British Library catalogue there is mentioned the "Petite Dictionaire francaise-roumain" by Jean Rizo of 1837. Perhaps there are older Romanian dictionaries. Doubtless you can tell me?


laugh.gif laugh.gif

OMG!!!!!

Arent you aware that languages have their own dictionaries?!
Why do you mention an inter-language dictionary, francaise-roumain, and take it as the reference point for when the first Romanian dictionary was written?!!!!

Excuse me for using colours and size buttons, but your post freaked me out... Sid, come on...! Dont you spot a huge error in your judgment there?

I think this clarifies what you meant by french scholars writing the first Romanian dictionaries and grammar books, though. I think it was a big error. And you probably meant the first bilingual french-romanian dictionaries/grammar books. Thats a HUGE difference, Sid!

take care


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 15, 2005 01:18 pm
QUOTE
Linguists apparently recognise three south of the Danube and five north (from Muntenia, Moldova, Ardeal, Banat and Oltenia).


Sid, I have walked this country from north to south and west to east and I NEVER heard a dialect spoken - what I heard was the same romanian language I speak but with a different accent (which does NOT make it a different dialect), south of Danube it is not Romania btw. Would you please show me and prove to us that inside romania we speak 5 different dialects ? Did you ever stuy romanian language or been to romania ?

As for this:

QUOTE
20% Latin
38.4% French
14% Slav
3.7% Turkish
2.4% Greek
2.3% German
2.4% classical Latin
1.7% Italian


I do speak very good french and I also studied latin and ofcourse I do speak romanian, 38.4% french is pure BS - sorry to talk like this.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 01:32 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Is inventing other peoples' posts the ONLY way you can win a debate?

Where did I ever write about "French scholars writing the first Romanian dictionaries or grammar books"?

This is yet another case of either justifying your accusation or withdrawing it.

Which is it to be?

Now I will repeat what I wrote last time and perhaps you would care to answer the question in your next reply:

"I don't actually know when the first Romanian dictionary was written. In the British Library Catalogue there is mentioned the "Petite Dictionnaire Francaise-Roumain" by Jean Rizo of 1837. Perhaps there are older Romanian dictionaries. Doubtless you can tell me."

Well?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have a few of Jean-Alexandre Vaillant's relevant titles as well:

1836: "Grammaire vallaque a l'usage des francaises".

1840: "Grammaire roumaine a l'usage des francaises".

1840: "Vocabulaire francais-roumain et roumain-francais"

1844: "La Roumaine, ou histoire, langue......"

Rather interesting that he changes the title of his 1836 grammar from "vallaque" to "roumaine" for the 1840 edition, don't you think?

Cheers,

Sid.







Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 01:48 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 10:48 AM)

Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?

At the same time the Bulgarians were employing Russian grammarians to root out Latin-derived words and replace them with Slavic words. This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.

I reply to this only to refresh Sid's memory regarding his statements about french grammarians and their involvement in the "purification" of the romanian language.
It seems Sid now is saying I made that up, and he never claimed such a thing!!!


Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 01:49 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 12 2005, 03:48 PM)


As I understand it, in the 19th century both Romanians and Bulgarians employed foreign scholars (in the former case French, in the latter case Russian) to help construct their first grammars and dictionaries because they lacked such specialists themselves. Is this not so?


Same reason!

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 02:04 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 01:32 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

Is inventing other peoples' posts the ONLY way you can win a debate?

Where did I ever write about "French scholars writing the first Romanian dictionaries or grammar books"?

This is yet another case of either justifying your accusation or withdrawing it.

Which is it to be?

Now I will repeat what I wrote last time and perhaps you would care to answer the question in your next reply:

"I don't actually know when the first Romanian dictionary was written. In the British Library Catalogue there is mentioned the "Petite Dictionnaire Francaise-Roumain" by Jean Rizo of 1837. Perhaps there are older Romanian dictionaries. Doubtless you can tell me."

Well?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have a few of Jean-Alexandre Vaillant's relevant titles as well:

1836: "Grammaire vallaque a l'usage des francaises".

1840: "Grammaire roumaine a l'usage des francaises".

1840: "Vocabulaire francais-roumain et roumain-francais"

1844: "La Roumaine, ou histoire, langue......"

Rather interesting that he changes the title of his 1836 grammar from "vallaque" to "roumaine" for the 1840 edition, don't you think?

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
Is inventing other peoples' posts the ONLY way you can win a debate?


I invented nothing, and I'm not here to win debates. Please dont make an ego issue out of this.

QUOTE
Rather interesting that he changes the title of his 1836 grammar from "vallaque" to "roumaine" for the 1840 edition, don't you think?


Well, I'm sure its interesting for you, if you go about hunting nationalist conspiracies and their role in inventing romanian things to make them look more latin and Roman.
I guess you are unaware that the romanians have called themselves "ruman" in the middle-ages, and only the foreigners called them vlahi/valahi/wallachs.
But anyways, I'm curious, why would you say the french guy suddenly changed his titles?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 02:05 pm
Hi Imperialist,

So you don't recognise that "relatinisation", and purification of the Romanian language for nationalist reasons took place?

Accusing me of being "arrogant and patronising" may or may not be true (I will leave that up to third parties to decide). It is, however, entirely irrelevant. You should be addressing what I write, not my manner of delivering it. The fact that you are not addressing my substantive points or answering my questions is an implicit concession of defeat on the actual issues.

Oh, so I missed my target by three centuries when I wrote that Vaillant's book of 1844 predated the founding of the Academia Romana? When was the Academia Romana founded then? (And please don't try to muddy the waters by talking about other academies which I did not mention.) Straight question: When was the Academis Romana founded? Before or after 1844?

Nope. It did not escape my attention that you posted a short list of Romanian language books. However, as I was well aware of such early Romanian books and it wasn't directly related to anything else I had written, it didn't seem to merit comment. If by reminding me, you want me to express how impressed I am at your breadth of knowledge, however, irrelevant, then I am happy to do so. Lovely book list.

I am delighted that you get so much exercise walking Romania from north to south and east to west. However, when it comes to dialects I would prefer to rely on the expertise of profesional linguists, who have identified the five Romanian dialects, than yourself, a presumably unqualified holiday rambler.

Calling a 38.4% French-derived Romanian contemporary vocabulary "pure BS" is hardly an informed argument, is it? I am quite happy to debate with you, but not on such a level. Evidence and alternative sources, please.

Once again we are left with your unsubstantiated opinions on a subject versus contradictory sourced expert evidence. Once again I find no difficulty in preferring the latter.

Cheers,

Sid.





Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 02:09 pm
Hi Imperialist and D-13th Mytzu,

I owe you an apology. I confused your two posts. Sorry.

Sid.


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 15, 2005 02:32 pm
QUOTE
I am delighted that you get so much exercise walking Romania from north to south and east to west. However, when it comes to dialects I would prefer to rely on the expertise of profesional linguists, who have identified the five Romanian dialects, than yourself, a presumably unqualified holiday rambler.

Calling a 38.4% French-derived Romanian contemporary vocabulary "pure BS" is hardly an informed argument, is it? I am quite happy to debate with you, but not on such a level. Evidence and alternative sources, please.



Sid, please calm down a little and try to think straight... I was born in this country and since I was a little kid my parents always took me in hollydays all across our country, many times I have spoken with all kind of people from many different social classes, also my mother's side still leave in the coutrny-side as simple farmers/peasants, I go there each year since I was a kid. Being a romanian who speaks french extremly well and also who has studied the latin, gives me the right to exercise my point of view on what some outsiders (I am speaking of the frenchies who claimed 38% french words in our language) say. Aparently you are not a romanian, you do not speak our language, you did not visit our country but you argue and tell me I know nothing about my own language and country-men... not very nice. Forgive me if I do not write academic works about percentages and latin words/french words.


Besides, what I learned long time ago, from others work (members of Academia Romana), 38% is WRONG. So again I ask of you, why should I belive the frenchies and not my own savants who know our people and language MUCH better then any frenchman ?

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 02:34 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 02:05 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

So you don't recognise that "relatinisation", and purification of the Romanian language for nationalist reasons took place?

Accusing me of being "arrogant and patronising" may or may not be true (I will leave that up to third parties to decide). It is, however, entirely irrelevant. You should be addressing what I write, not my manner of delivering it. The fact that you are not addressing my substantive points or answering my questions is an implicit concession of defeat on the actual issues.

Oh, so I missed my target by three centuries when I wrote that Vaillant's book of 1844 predated the founding of the Academia Romana? When was the Academia Romana founded then? (And please don't try to muddy the waters by talking about other academies which I did not mention.) Straight question: When was the Academis Romana founded? Before or after 1844?

Nope. It did not escape my attention that you posted a short list of Romanian language books. However, as I was well aware of such early Romanian books and it wasn't directly related to anything else I had written, it didn't seem to merit comment. If by reminding me, you want me to express how impressed I am at your breadth of knowledge, however, irrelevant, then I am happy to do so. Lovely book list.

I am delighted that you get so much exercise walking Romania from north to south and east to west. However, when it comes to dialects I would prefer to rely on the expertise of profesional linguists, who have identified the five Romanian dialects, than yourself, a presumably unqualified holiday rambler.

Calling a 38.4% French-derived Romanian contemporary vocabulary "pure BS" is hardly an informed argument, is it? I am quite happy to debate with you, but not on such a level. Evidence and alternative sources, please.

Once again we are left with your unsubstantiated opinions on a subject versus contradictory sourced expert evidence. Once again I find no difficulty in preferring the latter.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE

So you don't recognise that "relatinisation", and purification of the Romanian language for nationalist reasons took place?


No.
I think you are confusing things and aggressively attacking people who try to tell you otherwise. I drew your attention towards the issue of orthography, I drew your attention towards the issue of the Latinists, who were elloquently dismissed by Titu Maiorescu, and their absurd efforts to employ the ethimological system in orthography came to naught.
I gave you a list to show the intellectual and literary activity in this country before the alleged french scholars came.

QUOTE
You should be addressing what I write, not my manner of delivering it. The fact that you are not addressing my substantive points or answering my questions is an implicit concession of defeat on the actual issues.



I have addressed your points.

QUOTE

Oh, so I missed my target by three centuries when I wrote that Vaillant's book of 1844 predated the founding of the Academia Romana? When was the Academia Romana founded then? (And please don't try to muddy the waters by talking about other academies which I did not mention.) Straight question: When was the Academis Romana founded? Before or after 1844?


The Academy was founded in 1866.
That however, has nothing to do with the first studies on Romanian language, which far preceded the Academy's establishment.
And what do you imply with Valliant's book?

QUOTE
I am delighted that you get so much exercise walking Romania from north to south and east to west. However, when it comes to dialects I would prefer to rely on the expertise of profesional linguists, who have identified the five Romanian dialects, than yourself, a presumably unqualified holiday rambler.


I think in matters of my own language I am better qualified than you, wouldnt you say? So drop the condescension.

p.s. And what exactly is your "agenda" Sid? Since you claim others have nationalist agendas and engage in purifications and other actions, what is yours?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 02:53 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Ah, your old, "I-can't-justify-what-I-wrote-but-I-can quote-something-that-says-something-else-and-pretend-it-does" ploy!

You posted that I had written about "French scholars writing the first Romanian dictionaries or grammars".

I denied it and it remains untrue.

I actually wrote, and you quote this correctly, "As I understand it, in the 19th Century both Romanians and Bulgarians employed foreign scholars (in the former case French, in the latter case Russian) TO HELP construct their first grammars and dictionaries because they lacked such specialists themselves." Not quite the same thing, is it?

You then accused me of accusing you of making up something completely different. Again, it was entirely untrue. I have never denied that French scholars had a role in the purification/relatinisation of the Romanian language. Why on earth would I?

As usual, you ask for something and then don't like the answer. You asked for the names of influential French scholars. I give you four names. Not only that, but I give you details of a book written by one who changes the wording of the title from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between the editions of 1836 and 1840. Why do I think Vaillant changed his titles? Because he was a firm advocate of Romanian nationalism (read his biography).

This always happens when you begin to drown in facts that contradict your proposition. You start to make false personal attacks and try to drown out unpalatable questions with diversionary irrelevances. This is not an adult response.

Please address my actual points, don't invent my posts and don't introduce irrelevant diversions.

And above all, be HONEST.

Cheers,

Sid.







Posted by: sid guttridge August 15, 2005 03:41 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Er, no, you haven't addressed my points. You are fleeing most of them.

For example, I asked you for details of pre-1837 Romanian dictionaries. No answer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some, but you haven't offered any, have you?

I put up a list that claims that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French origin. You offer no explanation how these words infiltrated the Academia Romana's official dictionary, if not as part of an official policy.

Good. A straight answer, at last. The Academia Romana was founded in 1866, 22 years after Vaillant's book "La Roumanie...." was published, as I said. Why argue with something that is a self evident fact.

In Vaillant you have evidence of a French scholar long resident in Romania publishing several books on Romanian linguistics who was actively engaged in Romanian nationalist politics. It was what you asked for. He even seems to have changed a book title to conform with Romanian nationalist trends.

If you want to follow up orthography, you might also care to look up the catalogue of the Bibliotheque National in France. You will find that orthography is part of the full title of Vaillant's "La Roumanie......"

That there was intellectual activity in Roumania before the 19th Century is not in dispute. I wrote that it existed myself if you care to check. The problem was that the Romanian intellectual elite were then very few and very insecure. Very few Romanian-speakeers were then even literate, let alone academic "intellectuals". If some of them independently published Romanian dictionaries and grammars before the 1830s, doubtless you will soon supply the details.

One of my working assumptions is that people speak their own language better than outsiders. However, they do not necessarily know more about it. That seems to be your situation on this particular point. You are in denial about the influence of French scholars on the development of the Romanian language in the 19th Century and don't recognise that there was a deliberate national policy to "Relatinise" the language by consciously and deliberately favouring the adoption of mostly French loan words. there is nothing wrong with this, so I don't understand what your instinctive resistance to this proposition is based on.

I have absolutely no reference books on this subject available to me here in provincial England. I would have expected, if I was wrong, to be drowned in relevant hard facts from you. Yet it is me who is supplying the relevant hard facts of the internet.

You ask me my aganda? Simple. I want the facts.

What is your "agenda" in asking me my "agenda"? Simple, to try to imply that I am in some way anti-Romanian and thereby enlist support from other Romanians on this site on spurious patriotic grounds. And why are you doing this? Because you haven't got the necessary facts at your disposal.

I am quite prepared to be educated by you in the history of your own language, provided you produce the relevant evidence. For example, I have offered sources that state that there are five recognised Romanian dialects within Romania. You say there are no dialects. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary. You don't like the proposition that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French derivation. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary.

As always, I am perfectly willing to accept well-supported propositions. All I ask is that you bring such evidential support forward. If what you say is correct, it shouldn't be too difficult. Firstly Romanian is your own language, and secondly you are in Romania.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 15, 2005 04:40 pm
QUOTE
I am quite prepared to be educated by you in the history of your own language, provided you produce the relevant evidence. For example, I have offered sources that state that there are five recognised Romanian dialects within Romania. You say there are no dialects. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary. You don't like the proposition that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French derivation. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary.


1. I have been in all parts of Romania and no dialect was encoutered. Evidence number 1.

2. I am speaking this language as well as the french language and also stuidied latin. French words are by far less then latin words or words that resemble italian. Argument number 2.



PS: You should make a test - come to romania, go to a simple man anywhere in the country and talk to him first time in french then in italian then please tell me when did he understand what you said - when you spoke in french or when you spoke in italian ? This should be evidence enough... I already know the answer for this and I guess you also suspect it.

PS2: ahh I see you are from UK smile.gif I would be happy next time I visit your country to come and talk to you more about this subject.. it is quite hard to understand eachother via forum. BTW: everytime I went to UK I visited a lot of your history related sites - I just love doing that and your country preserved its history very well, wish we have done the same.

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 05:52 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 03:41 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

Er, no, you haven't addressed my points. You are fleeing most of them.

For example, I asked you for details of pre-1837 Romanian dictionaries. No answer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some, but you haven't offered any, have you?

I put up a list that claims that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French origin. You offer no explanation how these words infiltrated the Academia Romana's official dictionary, if not as part of an official policy.

Good. A straight answer, at last. The Academia Romana was founded in 1866, 22 years after Vaillant's book "La Roumanie...." was published, as I said. Why argue with something that is a self evident fact.

In Vaillant you have evidence of a French scholar long resident in Romania publishing several books on Romanian linguistics who was actively engaged in Romanian nationalist politics. It was what you asked for. He even seems to have changed a book title to conform with Romanian nationalist trends.

If you want to follow up orthography, you might also care to look up the catalogue of the Bibliotheque National in France. You will find that orthography is part of the full title of Vaillant's "La Roumanie......"

That there was intellectual activity in Roumania before the 19th Century is not in dispute. I wrote that it existed myself if you care to check. The problem was that the Romanian intellectual elite were then very few and very insecure. Very few Romanian-speakeers were then even literate, let alone academic "intellectuals". If some of them independently published Romanian dictionaries and grammars before the 1830s, doubtless you will soon supply the details.

One of my working assumptions is that people speak their own language better than outsiders. However, they do not necessarily know more about it. That seems to be your situation on this particular point. You are in denial about the influence of French scholars on the development of the Romanian language in the 19th Century and don't recognise that there was a deliberate national policy to "Relatinise" the language by consciously and deliberately favouring the adoption of mostly French loan words. there is nothing wrong with this, so I don't understand what your instinctive resistance to this proposition is based on.

I have absolutely no reference books on this subject available to me here in provincial England. I would have expected, if I was wrong, to be drowned in relevant hard facts from you. Yet it is me who is supplying the relevant hard facts of the internet.

You ask me my aganda? Simple. I want the facts.

What is your "agenda" in asking me my "agenda"? Simple, to try to imply that I am in some way anti-Romanian and thereby enlist support from other Romanians on this site on spurious patriotic grounds. And why are you doing this? Because you haven't got the necessary facts at your disposal.

I am quite prepared to be educated by you in the history of your own language, provided you produce the relevant evidence. For example, I have offered sources that state that there are five recognised Romanian dialects within Romania. You say there are no dialects. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary. You don't like the proposition that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French derivation. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary.

As always, I am perfectly willing to accept well-supported propositions. All I ask is that you bring such evidential support forward. If what you say is correct, it shouldn't be too difficult. Firstly Romanian is your own language, and secondly you are in Romania.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
For example, I asked you for details of pre-1837 Romanian dictionaries. No answer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some, but you haven't offered any, have you?


"Lexiconul de la Buda" -- 1825.


QUOTE
In Vaillant you have evidence of a French scholar long resident in Romania publishing several books on Romanian linguistics who was actively engaged in Romanian nationalist politics. It was what you asked for. He even seems to have changed a book title to conform with Romanian nationalist trends.


No, it is not. What contribution did he bring to the purification of the Romanian language, and to the writing of what dictionaries did he offer his assistance?

QUOTE
You are in denial about the influence of French scholars on the development of the Romanian language in the 19th Century and don't recognise that there was a deliberate national policy to "Relatinise" the language by consciously and deliberately favouring the adoption of mostly French loan words. there is nothing wrong with this, so I don't understand what your instinctive resistance to this proposition is based on.


You keep mentioning "re-latinisation", when I have already told you that it did not took place under the nationalist policy-driven way that you mention.
Besides, I will always keep attacking the term "re-latinisation", because its linguistically inept and agenda-driven. You do not say neologisms, you do not say it was a fairly important cultural connection between Romania and France, you say policy of purification and re-latinisation. It stinks of a deliberate agenda from a mile, dear Sid.

Like Maiorescu said: "Dezvoltarea limbei, si anume si corupti fonetica, este un product instinctiv al naturei omenesti, un fapt de istorie naturala, si niciodata nu se va apleca dupa ratiunea calculatoare a individului."

QUOTE
I would have expected, if I was wrong, to be drowned in relevant hard facts from you. Yet it is me who is supplying the relevant hard facts of the internet.


You have rejected relevant hard facts as being irrelevant... And put forward opinions backed by 2 internet sources, one which is not clear enough and does a big confusion about Heliade Radulescu, and one who offers a procentage that I will investigate in due time.

QUOTE
For example, I have offered sources that state that there are five recognised Romanian dialects within Romania. You say there are no dialects. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary.


I think you confuse me, I said linguistically they can be called dialects, but it must be specified what kind of dialects they are. There are dialects which basically mean a different language with different rules, and ones which simply mean a slightly different pronunciation/accent and a few archaic words which is the case in Romania. This regional particularity is known as "grai/graiuri". Its not quite a dialect.


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 15, 2005 06:30 pm
QUOTE
There are dialects which basically mean a different language with different rules, and ones which simply mean a slightly different pronunciation/accent and a few archaic words which is the case in Romania. This regional particularity is known as "grai/graiuri". Its not quite a dialect.


Exactly what I was trying to poin out before being called "unqualified holiday rambler".

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 06:45 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 15 2005, 06:30 PM)
QUOTE
There are dialects which basically mean a different language with different rules, and ones which simply mean a slightly different pronunciation/accent and a few archaic words which is the case in Romania. This regional particularity is known as "grai/graiuri". Its not quite a dialect.


Exactly what I was trying to poin out before being called "unqualified holiday rambler".

Yes Mytzu, I knew that was what you meant the moment I read it.
I guess its a nationalist plot... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Imperialist August 15, 2005 09:25 pm
Sid, Heliade Radulescu also wrote a grammar book in 1828.
That grammar book was against the current that would later be known as the Latinists.
He was against the ethymological ortography, like Titu Maiorescu was, later on. They were both anti-Latinists.
Here is what Radulescu said:

QUOTE
"Cel ce cunoaste limba latineasca stie ca zicerea timp vine de la tempus, sau de va fi scrisa timpu, sau de va fi scrisa tempu; asemenea si primavara este cunoascuta de unde vine, sau de va fi scrisa prima-vera, sau de va fi scrisa primavara.
  Pentru cel ce nu cunoaste limba latineasca este in zadar oricum vor fi scrise zicerile."


Later on he did fall in the Latinist camp, as a reaction to the russians and their pan-slavism.
But his initial position was the one that remained in our language, not the Latinist version of words. There was only a handful of words that remained, but they remained because of their neologism character.

If the latinists would have succeded in what you call the "re-latinisation" we would have had the following changes (a few examples):

instead of zboara -- svoala
zburatoare -- svolatoare
muieri -- mullieri
frumuseti -- bellete
sarut -- baciu
aparare -- diffesa
iubita -- amata

The anti-latinist, scientific current was stronger than the latinist activists.

Hope this clarifies a little further the issue.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 09:13 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

Your argument is not with me, but with professional linguists. I am merely the conduit.

They have identified five dialects of Romanian in Romania and three outside.

They have also identified that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary derives from French.

I am still left with a choice of you, presumably a non-specialist in linguistics, or professional linguists. If this is the only choice I have, then I am naturally going to favour the professionals over your personal anecdotes. If, however, you can enlist the support of professional linguists yourself, then your position is much better and I will, of course, have to give it more weight.

There are a number of factors that you might also consider, which may, or may not, have a bearing.

Firstly, Romania has had a public education system teaching one approved form of Romanian for over 100 years. The media presumably do the same. This will naturally erode the use of dialects, which probably means that they are less distinct than they were when the Romanian language began to be analysed systematically a couple of hundred years ago. (This is certainly true in the UK). Furthermore, people will tend to converse with outsiders in the mutual national language, reserving local dialects for talking amongst themselves.

It is also inherently unlikely that a language covering such a wide area as Romanian wouldn't have dialects. Look at French with its Langue d'Oc and Langue d'Oiel (spelling?).

It should also be borne in mind that although 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary may be derived from French, it doesn't mean that 38.4% of all words used in everyday speech are of French origin. Take English, for example. About 45% of its vocabulary is derived from Germanic languages while another 45% is derived from Latin (often via French). However, this does not mean that in common speech Germanic- and Latin-derived words are used with equal frequency. The basic English language is Germanic and so the great majority of words used in daily speech are Germanic. The Latin-derived words are later introductions and tend to cover more technical subjects and so are more rarely used.

In Romania, it may well be the same. The core old Romanian words presumably form the bedrock of daily speech, whereas the later French-derived additions are probably of a more technical nature and more rarely used. For example, one presumably uses the word "house" or "home" more frequently in any language than the word for "railway station". My guess is that the Romanian word for "house" or "home" is likely to be of old Romanian origin, because every society needs a word for "house" or "home", whereas the word for station is probably going to be imported, probably in Romania's case from France.

I would suggest that it is perfectly possible for your observation (that most words used in daily speech in Romania are of old Romanian origin) and my observation (that linguists report that 38.4% of the current vocabulary is of French origin) to be right.

Give me notification of when you are next over in London and we can see if we can meet. I am up there several times a year.

Yes, we have been fortunate to preserve our history. This is the great advantage of being an independent island that is difficult to invade. Apart from casual neglect, probably the greatest historical vandalism was done to the decoration of our churches during the English Civil War of the 1640s.

Cheers,

Sid.










Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 10:47 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 09:13 AM)
I am still left with a choice of you, presumably a non-specialist in linguistics, or professional linguists. If this is the only choice I have, then I am naturally going to favour the professionals over your personal anecdotes. If, however, you can enlist the support of professional linguists yourself, then your position is much better and I will, of course, have to give it more weight.

Quite bold assumption for somebody picking its sources from a more than anonymous web page ( http://romania.ibelgique.com/langue-roumaine.htm ) which by the way,is not backed up by any "professionals".
What you quote is no more than a traveller guide into an obscure part of this world ,called Romania. In fact , it belongs to a travel site.
Nice attempt on trolling,neverthless.
Take care.
Zayets out

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 11:10 am
Hi Imperialist,

Now we are getting somewhere.

I can't find much on "Lexiconul de la Buda". However, I can find no indication that French scholars had any direct input into it.

However, I would point out that it seems to have been (1) an inter-language dictionary of the sort you were inclined to reject only yesterday and (2) it seems to describe the language as Vlach, not Romanian. (Is this correct? I can only judge from some very small references on the internet.)

This is an important distinction. There seems to have been a conscious and deliberate effort to dump the term "Vlach" in favour of "Romanian" in the early 19th Century. This was presumably for nationalist reasons, as it helped to make explicit Romania's claims to a Roman descent, which the word "Vlach" would not. The change of the title of the French linguist Vaillant's grammar from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between 1836 and 1840 I would suggest is evidence of this.

Vaillant wrote his own dictionaries and grammars. I gave details of three. I don't know of his influence on other dictionaries.

I didn't invent the term "Re-Latinisation". That was on a link I gave you earlier. You will have to take this up elsewhere. I agree that it is clumsy. Probably "Romancisation" would be a better word, as other Romance languages were much more directly drawn on for new words than Latin itself - most notably French. Would "Romancisation" be agreeable?

My original question about whether your percentages were referring to the Romanian vocabulary today or in the early 19th Century still stands. Do you agree that there is probably a substantial difference between the two? If one only withdraws the 38.4% of later French-derived words from the calculation, the Romanian vocabulary of the early 19th Century would lose about half its words of Romance (ultimately Latin) origin and almost certainly be proportionally rather less Latin-derived than it is today.

Furthermore, there is little doubt that this has been officially sponsored through the Academia Romana, state education and the media. (A similar process occurred in neighbouring countries like Bulgaria, which was subject to Russian Pan-Slavism, as you and I have now both noted).

I have no option but to use internet sources on this subject, because my Romanian-English dictionary has no etymological component.

Regarding the word list you gave (bellete, diffesa, amata, etc.): Were the rejected alternatives already in use in any Romanian dialect? Or were they entirely new proposed introductions? There is a difference between favouring a Latin-derived word already in use in one or more Romanian dialect over non-Latin alternatives in use in other Romanian dialects, and attempting to introduce an entirely new word into the language when all the existing dialects already use non-Latin derived words.

I presume your Latinists were of the latter variety. I am thinking of a more subtle, less fundamentalist approach. A couple of days ago I found an internet source that says that half the Romanian language's Slavic-derived words are archaic - that is no longer in common use. This implies that they may have been gradually marginalised by Latin-derived equivalents. I will try to find it again.

Yup. Chings are much clearer today. Thanks.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 11:16 am
Hi Zayets,

Fair comment. I am no great fan of internet sources myself. However, I don't have any other sources available.

Now, to the point. Do you have any evidence that the site (which is not the only one to quote the 38.4% figure) wrong?

Cheers

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 11:21 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 11:16 AM)
Now, to the point. Do you have any evidence that the site (which is not the only one to quote the 38.4% figure) wrong?

You ,you,you ... English people wink.gif
Nice try,I will not fall into this trap.It was you advancing those numbers.I am too lazy to look into my browser history but I have found exactly the same number ,38.4% , but they were saying FRENCH AND ITALIAN ORIGIN.You see? Each their own. All I know is that I have no problem at all understanding Italian where as French I had to learn it in school and later in Quebec.

BTW , I subscribe to what Mytzu said about England/Britain.I am a big admirer.The whole London is made to impress the casual/regular visitor. I for one I was/am impressed,neverthless.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 16, 2005 11:39 am
QUOTE
This is an important distinction. There seems to have been a conscious and deliberate effort to dump the term "Vlach" in favour of "Romanian" in the early 19th Century. This was presumably for nationalist reasons, as it helped to make explicit Romania's claims to a Roman descent, which the word "Vlach" would not. The change of the title of the French linguist Vaillant's grammar from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between 1836 and 1840 I would suggest is evidence of this.


Sid, you are making a confusion here - those who lived here (the romanians) did not called themselfs Vlachs (Vlahi) or the country Vlachia (Valahia) but it was called "Tara Romaneasca" which means Romanian Country - this is the term used by local population. Vlahi was a name that foreigners used when talking about Tara Romaneasca.

As for dialects, I assure you one more time that those so called dialects is actually same language/vocabulary/grammair with a differnt accent, I know it is hard for you to understand and the best way to get this is to come here and go in rural areas around the country and make people spell what they say, although they have different accents they are using the same language. As for proffesionals on this matter: how would you say about Academia Romana and our national education system ?

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 11:45 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 11:10 AM)


I can't find much on "Lexiconul de la Buda". However, I can find no indication that French scholars had any direct input into it.

-----

This is an important distinction. There seems to have been a conscious and deliberate effort to dump the term "Vlach" in favour of "Romanian" in the early 19th Century. This was presumably for nationalist reasons, as it helped to make explicit Romania's claims to a Roman descent, which the word "Vlach" would not. The change of the title of the French linguist Vaillant's grammar from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between 1836 and 1840 I would suggest is evidence of this.






Because they hadnt. Samuil Micu and Gheorghe Sincai were pretty much romanian.

-----

First of all, the term vlach was never the self-projected ethnic identity term used by the romanians. It was a term used by foreigners, slavs and hungarians. The romanians have always called themselves roman/ruman.
Wallachia was called Tara Romaneasca (the Romanian Country) by ethnic romanians.
The term "vlach" was passed down from the germans (Welsch) to slavs and hungarians, and it was originally used (by the germans) to designate the romanised celts and afterwards it was used to designate all romanised people (and hence the hungarians and slavs used it to designate the romanised population North of the Danube -- olah, vlach).

So the ethimology of the term "Vlach" itself makes perfectly clear the claim to a romanised descent. The change you note in Valliant's book has more to do with an adequate depiction of the self-projected ethnic identity widespread in the romanian population, than with a mischevous scheme to construct an identity.


I will address the rest of your message later on.

take care

Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 11:45 am
Is also pretty funny the fact that Hungarians say:
OLAH - Romanian
OLASZ - Italian
Coincidence perhaps...

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 12:16 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 11:10 AM)


Regarding the word list you gave (bellete, diffesa, amata, etc.): Were the rejected alternatives already in use in any Romanian dialect? Or were they entirely new proposed introductions? There is a difference between favouring a Latin-derived word already in use in one or more Romanian dialect over non-Latin alternatives in use in other Romanian dialects, and attempting to introduce an entirely new word into the language when all the existing dialects already use non-Latin derived words.


The Latinists wanted to change the orthography by making it follow an ethymological system. Therefore, though the ethymology of the word muiere clearly showed it was from the latin mulier, mulieris, the Latinists wanted the word changed so as to look even more latin -- mulliere.
So this is the closest thing ever to what you called the deliberate efforts to relatinize.
They failed. The Latinist school of thought was aptly defeated by linguists who opposed the artificial changes they proposed.

The second issue you addressed, that of purifying the language of slavic words did not occur, and might be confused by you with the process of changing the chirillic orthography.

The third issue -- the french words.
Like I said, I'll have to check that 30% number with someone specialised. In the dictionary there are words whose ethymology is strictly french, those with ethymology strictly latin, and some with both french and latin ethymology. That 30% could referr to those words with dual french-latin ethymology + those with strictly french one. To clarify the issue I have to find a good source or a better qualified opinion, and that could take some time.
Personally I think that percentage is high.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 01:20 pm
Hi Imperialist,

And yet Lexiconul de la Buda seems to have favoured the term Vlach (Please double check this. I have only limited internet sources). Is this because it was published in Hungary?

Actually, what you call your Latinist school wasn't what I was talking about at all. Indeed, I wasn't even aware of it. What I was talking about was the deliberate preferential absorption of words from other Romance sources - predominantly French - with the intention of reinforcing the Romanian language's Latin roots.

The ultimate arbiter of the Romanian language has been the Academia Romana for some 140 years. It publishes the definitive dictionary of the Romanian language. In order to get into this dictionary every word has to survive close official scrutiny. It would appear that an extremely high proportion of the words (the source I gave and the Wikipedia say 38.4% and 38%) that have received its official approval are of modern French derivation. This did not happen by random chance or blind accident.

I have no particular problem with this policy. However, to refuse to recognise it as a part of national policy is surely to blind oneself to the facts.

The Wikipedia also quotes a German source as saying that half Slavic-sourced words in the Romanian language are now archaic. I wonder what proportion of Latin-derived words are archaic?

Back in a minute..............









Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 01:33 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 01:20 PM)
The ultimate arbiter of the Romanian language has been the Academia Romana for some 140 years. It publishes the definitive dictionary of the Romanian language. In order to get into this dictionary every word has to survive close official scrutiny. It would appear that an extremely high proportion of the words (the source I gave and the Wikipedia say 38.4% and 38%) that have received its official approval are of modern French derivation. This did not happen by random chance or blind accident.

I still fail to see who say that over 30% are of French origin.The sources you gave are far for being trusted and a Wikipedia is ... just a Wikipedia.Since everyone can post in there makes it very unreliable source.
On another note,Romanians never say
CODE
vlach
since is very different from
CODE
vlah
and also from
CODE
valah

And another thing,somewords were reintroduced,which was pretty easy,we do agree that French has Latin roots?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 01:34 pm
.............

I agree that the proposition that words of recent French origin make up 38.4% of the modern Romanian vocabulary is extraordinarily high. I was was rather surprised myself!

However, I don't think that there is likely to be much confusion with words introduced directly from classical Latin. The same percentages list gives 2.4% of the modern Romanian vocabulary being drawn directly from Latin. (A small success for your Latinists, perhaps?)

I imagine that the 38.4% figure includes French words of Latin origin. As most French words are of Latin origin, they will presumably make up a majority of the 38.4% figure. However, this has little significance. What is important is the root via which they arrived in Romanian.

I will be most interested to learn what other more reputable sources say.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 01:37 pm
Hi Zayets,

Yup. As I said before, internet sources are not to be too heavily relied upon.

However, the fact remains that these figures are the most specific anyone has posted and no alternative sources are on offer as yet.

If you have such sources, please feel free to share them with us.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 01:42 pm
P.S. The original list of percentages gives 1.7% of the current Romanian vocabulary being of Italian origin. Combined with French this would be about 40%.

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 01:50 pm
No,I have no other sources handy(although a visit to the Academia will provide me with some ammo).
What I am saying is very simple and anyone speaking Romanian fluently can see what I am talking (about that HUGE number you gave - over 30% French AND ITALIAN words)
Words were RE-ENTERING in the Romanian language,in another way:

Example
CODE

brother: frate / fratern
water: apă / acvatic


Nobody used the second one (adverb) , this was borrowed from a much more literary source although IT HAS THE SAME ORIGIN. Obviously first word (noun) is a very popular word.So,if somebody considers these words of being FRENCH OR ITALIAN origin they are very wrong simply because those as well HAVE LATIN ORIGIN.I can give you a lot of those examples but I believe you don't speak Romanian.

On another note,same thing happens nowadays when a lot of English word entered our thesaurus:
beep -> bip
interview ->interviu
and so on.Pronounciacion IS EXACTLY as in English but unlike English counterparts THEY HAVE GENDER.Thus they were assimilated.
That's the big difference,we kept the LATIN GRAMATIC and that is more than a proof.

Take care
Zayets out

Posted by: Dénes August 16, 2005 02:26 pm
One of the oldest books printed in Rumanian language was - small wonder - the Bible (it is known as the 'Vlach Bible').
It was translated on the direct order and paid by György Rákóczi II., ruler of Transylvania, in 1648. Translation done from Greek and Slavic sources by a monk called Sylvester.

The complete title is: Noul testamen, sau impacarea, sau leagea noauo a lui Is. Xs. Domnului nostru. Izvodit cu mare socotinta den izvoda grecescu si slovenescu, pre limba rumaneasca, cu indemnarea si porunca, denpreuna cu toata cheltuiala a Marii Sale Gheorghie Rakotzi, craiol Ardealului. Typaritusau intru a Marii Sale typografie, denteiu niou, in Ardeal, in cetatea Belgradului, anii dela intruparea Domnului si Mantuitorului nostru Is. Xs. 1648, luna lui Ghenuariu 20.

[Source: http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/egyeb/lexikon/pallas/html/076/pc007670.html#4]

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 02:45 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 01:20 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

And yet Lexiconul de la Buda seems to have favoured the term Vlach (Please double check this. I have only limited internet sources). Is this because it was published in Hungary?

Actually, what you call your Latinist school wasn't what I was talking about at all. Indeed, I wasn't even aware of it. What I was talking about was the deliberate preferential absorption of words from other Romance sources - predominantly French - with the intention of reinforcing the Romanian language's Latin roots.

The ultimate arbiter of the Romanian language has been the Academia Romana for some 140 years. It publishes the definitive dictionary of the Romanian language. In order to get into this dictionary every word has to survive close official scrutiny. It would appear that an extremely high proportion of the words (the source I gave and the Wikipedia say 38.4% and 38%) that have received its official approval are of modern French derivation. This did not happen by random chance or blind accident.

I have no particular problem with this policy. However, to refuse to recognise it as a part of national policy is surely to blind oneself to the facts.

The Wikipedia also quotes a German source as saying that half Slavic-sourced words in the Romanian language are now archaic. I wonder what proportion of Latin-derived words are archaic?

Back in a minute..............

QUOTE
Actually, what you call your Latinist school wasn't what I was talking about at all. Indeed, I wasn't even aware of it. What I was talking about was the deliberate preferential absorption of words from other Romance sources - predominantly French - with the intention of reinforcing the Romanian language's Latin roots.


QUOTE
I have no particular problem with this policy. However, to refuse to recognise it as a part of national policy is surely to blind oneself to the facts.


So you werent referring to the Latinists I did. Well, nevertheless I have given you an example of an even more radical "re-latinisation" plot than you ever meant at the beginning. And it didnt work. Yes, there were also proposals to root out slavic words, but there wasnt a special school of thought for that, because the romanian language already had the replacement words, as slavic was a second language in the middle ages. So they were replaced according to the dynamics of the language.

Because the language is dynamic I also countered your claim about a national(ist) policy. Thats why I asked your agenda. Because things dont work quite like that.

For example Maiorescu proposed (approximate translation):

" Where we have in our language a word of latin origin, we must not introduce a neologism of the same origin. We will hence say: [I]imprejurare and never cerconstanta or circonstanta..." [/I][note that he opposed importing french neologisms if we already had a similar word or unless they described a totally new thing/notion !!!]

Well, today we can find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the romanian dictionary.
At imprejurare no ethymology is given (yet it is composed from words of latin origin -- but it doesnt say).
At circumstanta, lo and behold -- it says french and latin origin!

So we have the old latin origin word living side by side with the newer at the time french neologism, contrary to Maiorescu's indication. The dictionaries could do nothing but record the existence of the new neologism, they were not the ones behind introducing it. Its like saying today when lets say "cool" (OK, maybe bad example) will appear in the dictionary so that older folk understand the youngsters, there is a deliberate national policy to promote that word.

This is a also good example to see how erroneous would be to think that the french words account for a large part of latin origin in our language (when in fact a lot of french words were "imported" because it was chic to do so, not because there lacked an alternative), etc.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 03:16 pm
Hi Zayets,

If you can consult the Academia, it would be most helpful.

Yes, of course most French and Italian words are of Latin origin. That is not in dispute. However, those that entered the Romanian language from these sources must be accounted for differently from those that were inherited from old Romanian or resurrected directly from classical Latin.

There seem to be four main sources of Latin-derived words in the modern Romanian vocabulary (with the statistics I quoted earlier):

1) inherited from pre-1820 Romanian (20%).
2) introduced or reintroduced via French after about 1820 (38.4%).
3) resurrected direct from classical Latin (2.4%).
4) introduced or reintroduced from Italian (1.7%).

Of these, only the first two are statistically significant. Anything you can do to clarify this would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Sid.






Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 03:34 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 15 2005, 11:39 AM)


It gives the following breakdown of the origins "of the current composition of the Romanian vocabulary":

20% Latin
38.4% French
14% Slav
3.7% Turkish
2.4% Greek
2.3% German
2.4% classical Latin
1.7% Italian


The total gives 84,9%. What is the origin of the remaining 15,1%? ohmy.gif

The Romanian lexicon comprises app. 150,000 words. 38,4% French would mean 57,600 words.
The "missing" 15,1% would amount to 22,650! ohmy.gif

I think that belgian webpage has some faulty or incomplete info...

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 04:07 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Before writing off the Latinists completely, we still have to establish where the 2.4% of the modern Romanian vocabulary apparently derived directly from classical Latin came from. But I agree that in terms of the modern Romanian vocabulary they would not appear to be very significant.

I agree that language is dynamic. Throughout the Anglo-Saxon world this is recognised by the absence of anything like the Academie Francaise or the Academia Romana to regulate the English language. The English language grows organically. From our point of view, the mere existence of a state sponsored academy to promote and direct the national language indicates national(ist) policies.

There is no suprise that many Romanian words are of French AND Latin origin, because most of the French language is derived from Latin. From my point of view, it doesn't make any difference so long as they were introduced via French after about 1820.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Surely, your example of "circumstanta" might be evidence of the influence of your Latinists, Latinisation or Re-Latinisation?

The French word is "circonstance". However, the Latin word meaning circumstanta/circonstance is not apparently of the same root according to the Cassel's Latin Dictionary (which gives "res, sometimes tempus").

The origin of the French prefix "circon-" is the Latin "circum". Perhaps the Latinists (or others) took a contemporary French word and restored its Latin prefix to produce a new "Latinised" Romanian word that was nothing like the actual Latin original (res or tempus) of the same meaning?

So, whereas there seems already to have been a perfectly functional Romanian word of indeterminate origin - "imprejurare" - we now have a competing neologism of Latin-French origin - "circumstanta"?

The more I look at this example, the more it looks like "Latinisation" or "Re-Latinisation".

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 16, 2005 04:08 pm
QUOTE
Noul testamen, sau impacarea, sau leagea noauo a lui Is. Xs. Domnului nostru. Izvodit cu mare socotinta den izvoda grecescu si slovenescu, pre limba rumaneasca, cu indemnarea si porunca, denpreuna cu toata cheltuiala a Marii Sale Gheorghie Rakotzi, craiol Ardealului. Typaritusau intru a Marii Sale typografie, denteiu niou, in Ardeal, in cetatea Belgradului, anii dela intruparea Domnului si Mantuitorului nostru Is. Xs. 1648, luna lui Ghenuariu 20.



Thank you Denes !

Sid the bold writing says: "rumanian language" and this was in 1648, do you now agree that the name "Vlahi" was indeed a name given to us by foreigners while we called ourselfs rumani/romani ? Also we called our language that way in the 17th century and be sure it did not start then.


Edited: Sid I have one question - do you consider that the english spoken by a welsh or by a scot (not their ancient language but the english they speak) is a dialect ? Can extend question to: english spoken by an american, australian, kiwi...

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 04:12 pm
Hi Imperialist,

You missed out ".......et autres influences moins importants".

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 04:52 pm
Hi D13thMytzu,

I not only NOW agree that Vlah and its variations were foreign descriptions, but I would ALWAYS have done so.

The point is that "Vlah" (or its variations) was still apparently used unselfconsciously in lexikon and grammar titles by Romanian and French authors in the 1820s and 1830s, but by the 1840s it seems to have fallen into disuse by them. I would suggest that this may have been for nationalist reasons - the promotion of a distinctive Latin Romanian national consciousness. What you write seems to reinforce that point of view.

Not only are there English dialects in Wales, Scotland or Ireland (indeed more than one in each), but there are many different dialects within England as well, let alone overseas. I find this completely unremarkable.

The BBC has just published a survey about the sheer variety of English within the UK. It is probably on the internet if you want to check. There are well over a million words in English, a very high proportion supplied by dialects. (I seem to remember that there are enormous numbers of different words for things like "left-handed" and "pigsty".

Here is a definition of "dialect" from the Encyclopedia Britannica: "Dialect is a variety of a language that is used by one group of persons and has features of vocabulary, grammar, or pronounciation distinguishing it from other varieties of the same language that are used by other groups."

It also says: "Generally dialects develop as a result of barriers that exist between various groups of people who speak the same language. These barriers can be geographic, economic, political or social." I would suggest that the geographic and political categories might particularly apply to Romania's historical situation - divided by a major mountain range and ruled by three different alien empires.

One other thing - according to glottochronology, the more diverse a language's vocabulary, the older it is likely to be. If Romanian is not a diverse language (i.e. no dialects) this implies that it is of relatively recent creation.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I was once told that Romanians in Transilvania are particularly partial to beer, those south of the mountains prefer wine and those in Moldova are partial to vodka. I don't know if it's true, but if it is it shows the sort of cultural variation that can occur within a society due to political or geographic circumstance. I would suggest that language is a cultural artefact that naturaly shows similar variation.

Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 04:53 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 03:16 PM)
1) inherited from pre-1820 Romanian (20%).
2) introduced or reintroduced via French after about 1820 (38.4%).
3) resurrected direct from classical Latin (2.4%).
4) introduced or reintroduced from Italian (1.7%).

I am sorry Sid,
I don't know what to say,I have in front of me DEX (is true,one of the oldest edition)and everywhere I see "lat." not "fr." at origin. What should I do,to scan a page from the dictionary?This is an approved (although disputed due to Russian links of the author) by the Academy document.

And Sid,15,1% categorized as ".......et autres influences moins importants" is a bit silly,don't you think?I thought you are a serious person with whom we can have a civilized dialog.

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 04:54 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 04:07 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

Before writing off the Latinists completely, we still have to establish where the 2.4% of the modern Romanian vocabulary apparently derived directly from classical Latin came from. But I agree that in terms of the modern Romanian vocabulary they would not appear to be very significant.

I agree that language is dynamic. Throughout the Anglo-Saxon world this is recognised by the absence of anything like the Academie Francaise or the Academia Romana to regulate the English language. The English language grows organically. From our point of view, the mere existence of a state sponsored academy to promote and direct the national language indicates national(ist) policies.

There is no suprise that many Romanian words are of French AND Latin origin, because most of the French language is derived from Latin. From my point of view, it doesn't make any difference so long as they were introduced via French after about 1820.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Surely, your example of "circumstanta" might be evidence of the influence of your Latinists, Latinisation or Re-Latinisation?

The French word is "circonstance". However, the Latin word meaning circumstanta/circonstance is not apparently of the same root according to the Cassel's Latin Dictionary (which gives "res, sometimes tempus").

The origin of the French prefix "circon-" is the Latin "circum". Perhaps the Latinists (or others) took a contemporary French word and restored its Latin prefix to produce a new "Latinised" Romanian word that was nothing like the actual Latin original (res or tempus) of the same meaning?

So, whereas there seems already to have been a perfectly functional Romanian word of indeterminate origin - "imprejurare" - we now have a competing neologism of Latin-French origin - "circumstanta"?

The more I look at this example, the more it looks like "Latinisation" or "Re-Latinisation".

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
So, whereas there seems already to have been a perfectly functional Romanian word of indeterminate origin - "imprejurare" - we now have a competing neologism of Latin-French origin - "circumstanta"?


Sid, I think you did not understand that "imprejurare" is of LATIN ORIGIN.
Now we have both imprejurare and circumstanta. There is no competition. Circumstanta has long lost its neologism character.

QUOTE
The more I look at this example, the more it looks like "Latinisation" or "Re-Latinisation".


Like I pointed out, you misunderstood the example.

QUOTE
Surely, your example of "circumstanta" might be evidence of the influence of your Latinists, Latinisation or Re-Latinisation?


Surely it was an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare do not "import" circumstanta) fails.

QUOTE
From our point of view, the mere existence of a state sponsored academy to promote and direct the national language indicates national(ist) policies.


And, like you pointed out, you were pretty much on a safe independent island. Why do you apply your circumstances to regions which had a different historical evolution?


Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 05:12 pm
Hi Zayets,

As I have already pointed out, most French words are of Latin origin. They will therefore show up as ultimately of Latin origin.

As a test, look up "circumstanta". We know that there is a French word "circonstance" with the same meaning. It also appears from the Cassels Latin Dictionary that the Latin words with the same usage (res, tempus) have a different root. Does your source attribute "circumstanta" to French or Latin?

Why is "..... et autres influences moins importants" "a bit silly"? It presumably means that at least nine other languages (not all of which, like Dacian, need still exist) have contributed less than 1.7% each to Romanian. Is this impossible?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 16, 2005 05:23 pm
QUOTE
Not only are there English dialects in Wales, Scotland or Ireland (indeed more than one in each), but there are many different dialects within England as well, let alone overseas. I find this completely unremarkable.


I think you understood very well what I meant, but just in case you did not I will rephraze: do you consider that the english spoken by an american, australian, scottish are english dialects instead of english spoken with a different accent ? I hope this time you understand what I mean..

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 05:31 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I thought you said (0245 today) that "no etymology is given" for imprejurare. Which Latin words is it descended from?

I also thought you wrote (again 0245 today) "...today we find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the Romanian dictionary". That being so, how can you now (0454) hold it up "as an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare DO NOT "IMPORT" CIRCUMSTANTA) fails?

Given that Latin appears to use unrelated words to convey the same meaning, surely "circumstanta" is an example of a contrived "Latin" word adapted from French origin?

Cheers,

Sid.





Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 05:40 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 05:31 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

I thought you said (0245 today) that "no etymology is given" for imprejurare. Which Latin words is it descended from?

I also thought you wrote (again 0245 today) "...today we find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the Romanian dictionary". That being so, how can you now (0454) hold it up "as an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare DO NOT "IMPORT" CIRCUMSTANTA) fails?

Given that Latin appears to use unrelated words to convey the same meaning, surely "circumstanta" is an example of a contrived "Latin" word adapted from French origin?

Cheers,

Sid.


I have said "imprejurare" is a composed word, and that is why an ethymology is not given for it, but for the words its made up of. Therefore, it is a word of latin origin. And probably this kind of not mentioning the ethymology of composed words is the reason behind the "missing" 15% in that belgian table you offered.
That would push the latin origin words to 35%.


QUOTE
I also thought you wrote (again 0245 today) "...today we find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the Romanian dictionary". That being so, how can you now (0454) hold it up "as an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare DO NOT "IMPORT" CIRCUMSTANTA) fails?


What? I think its pretty clear, do I have to spell it for you? What part of "do not 'import' " do you not understand, and what part of "it is in the dictionary"???? dry.gif


QUOTE
Given that Latin appears to use unrelated words to convey the same meaning, surely "circumstanta" is an example of a contrived "Latin" word adapted from French origin?


I reached the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about.
Contrived latin word adapted from French? ohmy.gif Just because we have "circum" and the french "circon". Oh my, you have no idea of linguistics...

p.s. Before we continue, I'd like to know what age you are please. Dont take it on a personal note, but your level of obstinancy and way of understanding some things puzzles me. Again, no offense intended, my age is on my profile, I'd like to know yours, or at least the age range, please.

take care


Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 05:43 pm
Hi D-13th Mytzu,

All the newer Anglo-Saxon countries have their own dialects, sometimes more than one. That is why they now have their own national dictionaries and don't just import British ones. The US has more than one dialect.

Even in Rhodesia, with a brief history and a maximum of only 270,000 English speakers, there was a distinct local dialect due to the absorption of Afrikaans and local African words into everyday speech. Nobody talked of cows, they talked of "mombes". The word "long" in Rhodesian English could mean "lots", unlike elsewhere. Fields were usually "vleis". Hills were "gomos". Traffic lights were "robots", and so on.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Agarici August 16, 2005 05:43 pm
Let’s get now to the discussion regarding the Romanian language itself. First of all, please keep this in mind: THERE ARE NO DIALECTS IN THE ROMANIAN LANGUAGE SPOKEN IN ROMANIA. Sorry if I am too blunt, but I’m really surprised that you have the nerve to go on and on saying that although you were told so many times that this is not true. By doing that, using as arguments two obscure internet sources, you defy the existence of two centuries of Romanian linguistics and the common knowledge of all the Romanian language speakers from this site. The only dialects of the Romanian are those spoken to the South of Danube. The Romanian language spoken in Romania has no dialect and many “graiuri”, this is a fact learned in the gymnasia Romanian language classes. The essential difference between dialect and “grai” is that the existence of the former implies substantial differences at the lexical level (different words for the same thing) and different grammar rules up to a certain degree, and the later mainly different pronunciations for the same words. And NO, the “Bucharest dialect” (which by the way does not exist) is not the basis of the Romanian literary language. The Muntenian “grai” (spoken also in Bucharest - and do not mistake it by the slang used in the bad Bucharest’s neighborhoods) is, like the other “graiuri”, different form the literary language (the use of “da” and “pa” instead of “de” and “pe”, the generalization of the singular number for substantives, adjectives and adverbs, etc) .

And another thing: STOP using “Valachians” for the contemporary Romanians. For some of us, at least for those in Transylvania, this is a derogatory term, associated with “olah” or “bozgor”. The first was use as an insult for the Romanians (equaling their ethnicity with an inferior social status and also with other attributes denoting their inferiority) and the second is an insult for the Transylvanian Hungarians, meaning “people without a country”. For your understanding, something like “nigger”…

Posted by: Zayets August 16, 2005 05:44 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 05:12 PM)
They will therefore show up as ultimately of Latin origin.

QED

Posted by: sid guttridge August 16, 2005 05:47 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I have little time.

Is your judgement that "imprejurare" is of Latin roots your personal opinion or derived from other sources? Either way, it would be nice to know what these specific Latin roots are.

The missing 15% aren't necessarily Latin so you cannot addthem arbitrarily to the Latin total.

Must go.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 05:56 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 05:47 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

I have little time.

Is your judgement that "imprejurare" is of Latin roots your personal opinion or derived from other sources? Either way, it would be nice to know what these specific Latin roots are.

The missing 15% aren't necessarily Latin so you cannot addthem arbitrarily to the Latin total.

Must go.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
Is your judgement that "imprejurare" is of Latin roots your personal opinion or derived from other sources?


But what are your sources to think I made it up, or its inaccurate?

No sources, just the erroneous premises with which you started the whole discussion -- that the current romanian language is made up of contrived words (hence nothing but an ellaborated lie), that the name Romania was contrived to make it look more like Rome/Roma, that the first dictionaries were written by french scholars (or HELPED them be written) who also engaged themselves in the purification of the language, etc., that the term romanian was changed from vlach for nationalistical reasons (not because it existed before -- that you found out from us) etc.

If you started with these premises, no wonder you doubt everything we say. But at the same time ask for more sources from us!!! Interesting strategy.

And to answer your question, my source was DEX, which breaks up "imprejurare" into its constituent parts, separating the root from the suffix/prefix/etc. The root is latin.

QUOTE
The missing 15% aren't necessarily Latin so you cannot addthem arbitrarily to the Latin total.


I cannot add them? Who says? You have to come up with the 9 languages which add 1,7% each to prove me wrong, Sid!

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 16, 2005 07:46 pm
QUOTE
All the newer Anglo-Saxon countries have their own dialects, sometimes more than one. That is why they now have their own national dictionaries and don't just import British ones. The US has more than one dialect.


Sid, why are you not being fair ? you understood VERY well what I meant however you keep on going about the dialects ? Ok, this time I will put it even simpler so a 5 years could understand:

When you meet a US citizen and you speak with him IN ENGLISH do you consider that you speak english and he speaks some kind of dialect ?

Posted by: Imperialist August 16, 2005 09:07 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 16 2005, 05:12 PM)


As a test, look up "circumstanta". We know that there is a French word "circonstance" with the same meaning. It also appears from the Cassels Latin Dictionary that the Latin words with the same usage (res, tempus) have a different root. Does your source attribute "circumstanta" to French or Latin?


QUOTE
It also appears from the Cassels Latin Dictionary that the Latin words with the same usage (res, tempus) have a different root.


Also on the message on Aug 16 2005, 04:07 PM you say:

QUOTE
The French word is "circonstance". However, the Latin word meaning circumstanta/circonstance is not apparently of the same root according to the Cassel's Latin Dictionary (which gives "res, sometimes tempus").



The latin word is "circumstantia" . What res, tempus root are you referring to?
The romanian word is "circumstanta". The prefix circum you noticed different from the french "circon", is of latin origin. There are other words of latin origin which lack a french origin, but which present the same prefix "circum", in the romanian language. For example "circumcizie".
If circonstance appeared as a french neologism, it would have been only natural for the prefix "circon-" to be replaced by the romanians themselves with circum-. The latter already existed in the language, while the former was the result of the french language's evolution.
The role of the Academy was not to transform the circon into circum in a nationalist plot to make things look in a certain way, but to point out that if we already have a circum- there is no logic in introducing an alien circon-.
And that circon- is also the probable reason why the neologism circonstance was rejected by Maiorescu who affirmed its better to reject it and maintain imprejurare.
And now we have both imprejurare and circumstanta. Aint romanian language rich and beautiful? smile.gif

----

About imprejur:

"Imprejur" = in+pre+jur
"jur" = from latin gyrus

Imprejur is of latin origin.

----





Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 09:04 am
Hi Imperialist,

Yes. You obviously do have to spell it out for me.

You stated:

1) "today we find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the Romanian dictionary"

2) "an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare do not import circumstanta) fails."

How can the central directive "do not import circumstanta" have failed if today it is in the Romanian dictionary?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Gyrus" is actually of Greek origin. It is the Greek equivalent of "circum-".

What is your source for the Latin etymology of imprejurare?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My Latin Dictionary doesn't give "circumstantia". I will check elsewhere. Can you recommend a source? It says that res and tempus were used.

Cheers,

Sid.



Posted by: Zayets August 17, 2005 09:14 am
Sid,would you care to explain how Latin took "gyrus" from Greek?Or your source is ,as always, wikipedia?Besides,even if Latin gyrus comes from Sanscrite it will still not prove your point that's simply because what Imperilaist said is that "the central directive" was TOU USE "CIRCUMSTANTA" IN PLACE OF "IMPREJURARE". The fact that dictionary contains BOTH and BOTH are used in curent language today MEANS that THE DIRECTIVE FAILED.
Geez man, at least die with some dignity

Posted by: Imperialist August 17, 2005 09:28 am
QUOTE
"Gyrus" is actually of Greek origin. It is the Greek equivalent of "circum-".


Gyrus is actually latin.... rolleyes.gif What is your source that gives it a greek origin?


"Circum" is actually the transformed in language form of "circa". Again, you have been caught "orbecaind" through notions and principles that you obviously comprehend not.
Why dont you learn more and come back later?

QUOTE
What is your source for the Latin etymology of imprejurare?


My language, and my dictionary. What is your source that its not?

QUOTE
My Latin Dictionary doesn't give "circumstantia". I will check elsewhere. Can you recommend a source? It says that res and tempus were used.


Yes, I would recommend a good dictionary and some basic knowledge of latin.
Res and temous have nothing to do with the issue.

Look for circumsto,are,steti. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Yes. You obviously do have to spell it out for me.

You stated:

1) "today we find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the Romanian dictionary"

2) "an example of how a central directive (maintain imprejurare do not import circumstanta) fails."

How can the central directive "do not import circumstanta" have failed if today it is in the Romanian dictionary?


Why would it be in the dictionary if the "directive" would have succeeded and the language users would have been satisfied with using "imprejurare" and only "imprejurare". Whats so hard to comprehend?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 09:30 am
Hi Zayets,

Are you saying that "gyrus" is not of Greek origin? Even my Latin dictionary says it is. Please check.

Cheers,

Sid.







Posted by: Imperialist August 17, 2005 09:34 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 17 2005, 09:30 AM)
Hi Zayets,

Are you saying that "gyrus" is not of Greek origin? Even my Latin dictionary says it is. Please check.

Cheers,

Sid.

My Latin dictionary has the word gyrus in it.
My Romanian dictionary, explicitly point out the latin origin of the word jur -- from the latin gyrus.
I would like to see what your latin dictionary says about gyrus -- from what greek word did it come?


p.s. And now you'll have the task of proving how the Romans re-latinised their language in a romanist maybe imperialist plot, by borrowing greek words and greek scholars, to make words look more like greek etc. And then the greeks, like Zayets said, in a devious plot borrowed from sanskrit etc.
[ I think you wouldnt last a semester in a Linguistics class, dude... laugh.gif ]

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 09:39 am
Hi Imperialist,

Firstly, I owe you an apology. I completely misread your posts and my logic was at fault. Clearly the directive did fail and the Latinists got their way over circumstanta.

The clue over "gyrus" is in the letter "Y", which Latin did not originally have and borrowed from Greek in order to represent the Greek letter upsilon in borrowed Greek words. Check it out.

I cannot find "circumstantia" in any Classical Latin Dictionary. It may be Medieval Latin. I will dig further.

I may not be able to get back today, but I will resume tomorrow.

Cheers,

Sid.










Posted by: Zayets August 17, 2005 09:47 am
I have said what I have said few posts above.Would you care to answer?Or you try to switch the whole discussion to a totaly different ground as you did from the begining?
I am sure now that you have no idea of what are you talking about.You're just fishing now in the hope that you'll fall on yer feet.Good luck

Posted by: Imperialist August 17, 2005 09:52 am
QUOTE
Firstly, I owe you an apology. I completely misread your posts and my logic was at fault. Clearly the directive did fail and the Latinists got their way over circumstanta.


OK. But the latinists had nothing to do with circumstanta... I dont know what you mean.

QUOTE
The clue over "gyrus" is in the letter "Y", which Latin did not originally have and borrowed from Greek in order to represent the Greek letter upsilon in borrowed Greek words. Check it out.


That is a clue, but lets leave that for inspector Clouseau. A letter in a word is your source for the greek origin of that word? I'm sorry, your logic is falling apart. What you proved was the greek origin of a... letter! Not of the word!
By the way, there are plenty latin words with "y" in them, and it does appears independently in the Latin alphabet... as "y".

QUOTE
I cannot find "circumstantia" in any Classical Latin Dictionary. It may be Medieval Latin. I will dig further.


OK, like I said, look for circumsto,are,steti .

QUOTE
I may not be able to get back today, but I will resume tomorrow.


Dont worry, take your time.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 11:25 am
Hi Imperialist,

I have an hour to spare.

My Cassels Latin Dictionary has "gyrus" on p.270. After giving the gender as masculine, it gives the original Greek word in the Greek alphabet, which I cannot render here.

If you go to a modern Greek dictionary, you will find the word still exists, with much the same meaning.

"Gyros" is a word of Greek origin and is the Greek equivalent of Latin "circum".

As I posted before, the "Y" is a give-away.

Yes. As my last post indicated, I know Latin had a "Y" - it was adopted from Greek specifically to render the Greek letter upsilon in Greek loan words, presumably like "gyrus".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Circumsto is in my dictionary. It means to "stand around or in a circle", or "surround". A derivative is circumstantes - "bystanders". It is one of many circum- words in the dictionary which share a common prefix with "circumstanta" but do not share the same meaning.

By contrast, the English-Latin end of the dictionary says: "Circumstance, res, sometimes tempus: according to circumstances, pro re (nata); in these circumstances, quae cum ita sint."

I have so far found no word "constantia" in Classical Latin.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A couple of days ago your dictionary reportedly didn't give a source for imprejurare. Now it apparently does.

That source, according to you, gives "gyrus" as a Latin root, whereas in fact "gyrus" is of Greek origin.

That is why I am asking for a source for your discovery that imprejurare was of Latin roots. Without a source I cannot check it myself next time I am in the British Library.

It is a perfectly reasonable request.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Agarici August 17, 2005 11:33 am
I really have something against what you said in this topic, and against the way you have developed your argumentation. You wrote more than half of the 9 pages from here using two internet sources. One of them ( http://romania.ibelgique.com/langue-roumaine.htm ) is part of a travel guide, has no specified author and uses no references. The other ( http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html ) is written by an illustrious anonym and although it uses references does not quote any linguist in the bibliography used (for your info, all those guys are historians). And about the honesty you were requiring from Imperialist, it was sad for me to see that you haven’t used it at all in your argumentation. I will quote from one of your sources ( http://romania.ibelgique.com/langue-roumaine.htm ):

“Voici la composition actuelle du vocabulaire roumain, selon l'origine des mots : 20% de mots hérités du latin (proportion similaire dans toutes les autres langues néo-latines), 38,4% au français, 14% d'emprunts aux langues slaves (ancien slavon, le bulgare, le serbo-croate, le russe, l'ukrainien), 3,7% au turc, 2,4% au grec, 2,3% à l'allemand, 2,4% au latin classique 1,7% à l'italien et autres influences moins importantes. Donc 63% de mots venus directement ou indirectement du latin.”

“Le fond lexical latin de la langue roumaine comprend 2000 éléments de base (sans compter les dérivés), c'est-à-dire autant que le nombre de mots hérités directement du latin par les autres langues romanes. Les mots roumains hérités du latin représentent depuis toujours dans le roumain, le noyau de base du vocabulaire.”

So you can read here the parts Sid deliberately omitted to reproduce (see my underlying above); seeing that, I cannot wonder what his question/questions about the Romanian language specificity among the other Romanic languages (from the perspective of the Latin origin lexical heritage) might be, since this source emphasizes that there is no such specificity.

Another point reached by you was the “re-latinisation” (a totally unfortunate choice for a term) of Romanian language, the role played by the Romanian nationalism in the process, and in subsidiary the influence of the French language (and culture - I can only speculate) in the Romanian language evolution.

First of all, the nationalism of the XIX century was not today’s nationalism. From the beginning of the XIX century onwards, the nationalism (better called “patriotism”, conforming with today’s understanding) was the main driving force for most of the Europe, and a preponderant constructive force too. For the Romanian Principates and Transylvania (as for other parts of the Europe), the nationalist movement took over the illuminist ideas and ideals and, along with the appeal for national language, culture and the formation of a national state, promoted the abolition of serfdom, slavery and privileges, the institution on equal citizenship, the personal, economic and political freedom and the modernization of the state’s institutions. The national consciousness of the Romanians and the linguistic studies and enquiries linked to it had arisen long before the French grammarians mentioned by you begun their work. In series of studies, the exponents of “Scoala ardeleana” (“Transylvanian School” - in the sense of “school of thinking”) in Transylvania (Micu, Sincai, Maior, Budai Deleanu), Ioan Heliade Radulescu in Muntenia and to a lesser degree figures like Gh. Asachi in Modavia proved the latin origin of the Romanian language. They were by no means local or provincial pamphlets writers, but scholars known in Europe. ALL of them started their consistent scientific work before the grammarians you mentioned and let me say that their effort was far more substantive and relevant, even if your internet “quick-find” sources does not provide you with that information. None of the above mentioned was a partisan of the excessive latinisation. Morover, form all of them we can only call Heliade Radulescu as being a “fan” of the French language and culture. Asachi was fond of Italian culture and the members of Scoala Ardeleana were all of Austrian/German education.

In what the “re-latinisation” of the language is concerned, the things are somehow simpler and far more logical than you presented them. First of all, the modernization of the language was part of a radical process of modernization which engulfed the entire Romanian society in the first half of the XIXth century. During decades, state’s organization, legal system, economy, lifestyle, everything of importance experienced major changes, the turning point being the adoption of the “Regulementele organice” (“Organic regulations”) as fundamental laws for the Muntenia and Moldavia in 1830-1831. For Transylvania this movement was less radical but it had begun earlier with "Scoala ardeleana”, in the political environment created by Joseph II reforms (and reforms initiatives). So all these new realities needed new words and a new language, hence the massive influx of neologisms in the language - technical, economical, judicial terms and so on. This was the cause for the a quite radical modification of the foreign origin terms proportion in the language, and in no case an (imposed) substitution of the already existing words with new ones. A process of this kind would however have been impossible for practical reasons: due to the quite low rate of literacy from those days, the new artificially constructed language would have become a restricted use jargon for those who created it. Also note that this modernization trend, in the case of Muntenia and Moldova, was at first not so much directed against the Cyrillic writing (still in official use, although the Latin writing was already privately used) but against the Greek language, which was widely used by the fanariot nobility and by the parasite post-feudal political regime until the end of 1820’s.

The efforts to edify a national language were not at all a continuous and linear push in the direction of its Latin roots. There were differences, even among the Latinists: some were modernists, adepts of neologisms adopted from Romanic languages (mainly French, but also Italian) - mocked by authors like Alecsandri or Caragiale - and other “autochtonists”, insisting in elaborating linguistic constructions specific to Romanian language - thus being ridiculed for allegedly proposing new expressions like “gatlegau” (cravata - tie) or “produse laptate” (“produse lactate” - diary products). There was also a pro-Slavic current, with its exaggerations, having the linguist A. Cihac as its exponent. Since he was a member of the Academy, the Slavic heritage of the language was not at all as undefended as you implied. But I guess you found nothing about that in the “professional” sources you used. Maybe you should get yourself a more recent travel guide for that biggrin.gif

This process of accelerated modernization of the language somewhat ended around 1880; this does not mean that since then the language stopped its evolution, but by that time the febrile searches in all directions came to an end and the language became more or less the Romanian used until nowadays. It’s interesting that the last word in this pre-settlement phase did not belong to the Latinists but to their adversaries, the rather conservative Junimists (Maiorescu, Caragiale, Eminescu). They were not linguists, but their contribution through their literary works and criticism (especially in Maiorescu’s case) was a major one for the shape the Romanian literary language took by the end of the XIXth century. They were sustaining, even in language matters “teoria formelor fara fond” (a critical theory about the forms without content, without essence) which favored a gradual, equilibrated evolution over the radical changes. Also an important role in the matter was played by B. P. Hasdeu, the considered the most visible Romanian linguist from the XIXth century. He was also a writer and a member of the Academy, adversary of both the Latinists and the Junimists, and an expert in Slavic languages.

You said you are surprised by the share of the French influence in modern Romanian. Actually we can discuss about a cultural and linguistical influence, which, as your amateur source specify, did not modified at all the Latin-origin core of the language. France influence started to be visible even from the XVIIIth century, partly because of its outstanding cultural life and partly as an effect of the French revolution ideas, even in their exported post-1796 form. Thus France was perceived as being one of the main reservoirs of the Illuminist thinking. Some XVIIIth century “boieri” (nobles) were subscribers of the Encyclopedie Francaise, while others wrote petitions to Napoleon in the beginning of the XIX century. And when the process of radical modernization (described above) begun, France was a likely model. The single (then) Latin superpower also had an at least indifferent (at first) and benevolent (later) attitude towards the Romanian Principates, being perceived as the only great power which does not have a domination interest in the area.

And in the end I must tell you that I had a dilemma: whether to let you go on and on with your fantasists allegation, or to waste my time writing this argumentation.
As for your attitude, I agree with Imperialist (that of course if I am accepted as a viable “third part”) - as I’ve already told you, your attitude does look like patronizing and self sufficient to me too. And I also agree with you, that it does not affect the content of what you are saying, but it’s nevertheless disturbing. What does affect the content of your undocumented argumentation is the fact that you are giving lessons in matters of which you are ignorant. I bet a native speaker, university educated “unqualified holyday rambler” (as you graciously called a fellow forumist) is far more qualified in this matter that the “linguists” you were quoting. As for your agenda, I’m still obscure about that… but I find really hard to believe that is about the search for the truth. For that, we still have the good old fashioned questions. The best scenario - I’d bet on your stubbornness…

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 11:34 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

I told you right from the start that all Anglo-Saxon countries have dialects.

It therefore follows automatically that if I talk to any American who is using his own vernacular he, like me, will be using a dialect. Furthermore, American isn't one dialect, but half a dozen.

If you haven't got the necessary reference books, you can check this out by following up "American dialects" on Google.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 11:39 am
Hi Zayets,

Did I fall on my sword with enough dignity for you?

Regretably I am trying to hold three simultaneous discussions (and when I can get around to Agarici, four), so it is entirely possible that I missed one of your earlier posts. That being so, what exactly do you want me to respond to that I overlooked earlier?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 17, 2005 11:44 am
Hi Agarici,

As you can see, I am quite heavily engaged on other fronts. However, I will address what you write as soon as possible - probably tomorrow.

However, I will say this now. I concealed nothing. I gave details of a link and you have merely reproduced that link. Where is the concealment?

If you want to engage in a discussion on the facts, I am happy to do so. However, it is not much advanced by unsubstantiated (indeed unsubstantiable) accusations of that sort.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 17, 2005 11:51 am
QUOTE
Did I fall on my sword with enough dignity for you?

You are not even funny anymore.I am really worried now that this is the only thing you understood from this whole thing.
QUOTE
Regretably I am trying to hold three simultaneous discussions (and when I can get around to Agarici, four), so it is entirely possible that I missed one of your earlier posts.

That's right , blame something,someone as long as it's not you
QUOTE
That being so, what exactly do you want me to respond to that I overlooked earlier?

I will take that as a joke.
Take care

Posted by: Imperialist August 17, 2005 12:07 pm
QUOTE
My Cassels Latin Dictionary has "gyrus" on p.270. After giving the gender as masculine, it gives the original Greek word in the Greek alphabet, which I cannot render here.


Yes, apparently the word gyre is "from the greek guros".
So? In your view, does that mean that the word gyrus is not a latin word? Like I said, I dont understand where you want to go with this... Look up the greek word "guros" too. What is its origin. Then look up the next word's origin. Whats the point in all this?
Suffice to say, jur is from the latin gyros. Not from the earlier greek guros.

QUOTE
Gyros" is a word of Greek origin and is the Greek equivalent of Latin "circum".


Like I told you before, the actual word is circa- in latin. The grammar of the language makes it change into circum- as a prefix.
Gyrus - means circle, spiral
Circa - means in a circle, in a spiral, around etc.
So they are not equivalents.

QUOTE
Circumsto is in my dictionary. It means to "stand around or in a circle", or "surround". A derivative is circumstantes - "bystanders". It is one of many circum- words in the dictionary which share a common prefix with "circumstanta" but do not share the same meaning.

By contrast, the English-Latin end of the dictionary says: "Circumstance, res, sometimes tempus: according to circumstances, pro re (nata); in these circumstances, quae cum ita sint."


One of the derivative of circumsto,are,steti is circumstantes (which means the ones which lie arround, are around).
If you would take the word and pass it through all persons probably you'd find circumstantia too.... but dont expected that in the dictionary. The dictionary gives you only the basic three forms of the word as shown above.
About the meaning, the meaning is the same, but you dont get it.

QUOTE
A couple of days ago your dictionary reportedly didn't give a source for imprejurare. Now it apparently does.


A couple of days ago I was telling you the source for imprejurare is not given, but the source of the words that enter its composition IS. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif So that may be one reason for the 15% "missing" which could actually very well be composed words of latin origin....

QUOTE
That is why I am asking for a source for your discovery that imprejurare was of Latin roots. Without a source I cannot check it myself next time I am in the British Library.

It is a perfectly reasonable request.


The source is the DEX, for crying out loud... Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Romane.
What is your source to doubt what I have just told you? Hmmm, let me see, a general distrust of others?

And to wrap this up, what exactly are you trying to prove? What exactly do you want?

Posted by: Zayets August 17, 2005 01:40 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Aug 17 2005, 01:30 PM)
Otherwise, interesting discussion on linguistics, but what is its relation with Transylvania?

I wonder the same thing. I enjoyed the whole thread until it came to the point that Romanian took a huge amount of its thesaurus from French.
I learn A LOT from this forum in regard with history (and not only) and it pisses me off to see how some people divert the original thread to some obscure details which are not even sustained scientificaly.Yes,I'm talking about Sid.
Take care

Posted by: Victor August 17, 2005 02:00 pm
Regarding the language thing, in a book published in 1816 by P. P. Svynin (member of the Odessa History and Archaeology Society) and entitled "The Description of the region of Bessarabia":

The inhabitants of this region are the Moldavians or Vlachs, descendents of the Roman colonists. They speak the Moldavian, which is of Latin origin and has, like the Italian, numerous particularities of the neolatin languages.

This was obviously happening before the Russian/Soviet government came up with the Slavic theory regarding Moldavians.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 17, 2005 02:21 pm
Very interesting Sid, you are even more stubborn then certain ppl I know.. so, in your opinion the official language of United States of America is a dialect of english ? I NEVER asked if you they speak dialects within a country and you know it, you always knew what I asked of you but you always avoided an honest answer instead tried to give som smart answers covering the real issue. You will probably do the same now, but why should I care ? We told you many times a thing, if you wish to understand it it's fine if not it's also fine because your stuborned opinion won't change the fact that THERE ARE NO ROMANIAN DIALECTS SPOKEN WITHIN ROMANIA.

For me this subject is closed and clear as it always was. Hope you will realize that being stuborned when wrong is not a good thing. Cheers !

Posted by: Victor August 17, 2005 06:05 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 17 2005, 04:21 PM)
THERE ARE NO ROMANIAN DIALECTS SPOKEN WITHIN ROMANIA.

Actually I know some Macedo-Romanians, living in Romania, that also speak their dialect among them, not only Romanian.

IMO the whole thing it's just a matter of what we each perceive as a dialect. I'm no expert in the field though and I may be wrong.

Surely none of us can deny the differences existing between the Romanian spoken in the different parts of the country. For example, I heard a Tulai Doamne, no fain ii some 10 days ago in Saua Crapaturii and there was no doubt in my mind that the person is from Transylvania. I have collegues from all over the country and can tell apart those from Oltenia, Moldavia or Transylvania by some of the particularities in the way they speak. There are words and accents that differ from region to region, although the differences aren't as many as in the case of Macedo-Romanian for example.

Posted by: Agarici August 17, 2005 06:37 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Aug 17 2005, 06:05 PM)

IMO the whole thing it's just a matter of what we each perceive as a dialect. I'm no expert in the field though and I may be wrong.

Surely none of us can deny the differences existing between the Romanian spoken in the different parts of the country. For example, I heard a Tulai Doamne, no fain ii some 10 days ago in Saua Crapaturii and there was no doubt in my mind that the person is from Transylvania. I have collegues from all over the country and can tell apart those from Oltenia, Moldavia or Transylvania by some of the particularities in the way they speak. There are words and accents that differ from region to region, although the differences aren't as many as in the case of Macedo-Romanian for example.


And that’s exactly why the Romanian linguists circumscribed those particularities to different “graiuri”, instead of dialects. And because they are professionals (to quote Sid) we should stop here these useless discussions and accept their version as being the correct one.

PS: I'm not a linguist neither, Victor, so nobody would ask so much from you. But did you use to skip the Romanian language classes in gymnasia? tongue.gif Or maybe you weren't paying attention, thinking of... Romanian army in WW2? biggrin.gif

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 18, 2005 04:35 am
QUOTE
Actually I know some Macedo-Romanians, living in Romania, that also speak their dialect among them, not only Romanian.

IMO the whole thing it's just a matter of what we each perceive as a dialect. I'm no expert in the field though and I may be wrong.

Surely none of us can deny the differences existing between the Romanian spoken in the different parts of the country. For example, I heard a Tulai Doamne, no fain ii some 10 days ago in Saua Crapaturii and there was no doubt in my mind that the person is from Transylvania. I have collegues from all over the country and can tell apart those from Oltenia, Moldavia or Transylvania by some of the particularities in the way they speak. There are words and accents that differ from region to region, although the differences aren't as many as in the case of Macedo-Romanian for example.


Victor the Macedo-Romanians are not Romanians :] so they cannot count in our discution. However I think you have a point when you say "e whole thing it's just a matter of what we each perceive as a dialect" , if by dialect one understants same language with a different accent and a few different words (like subway vs. underground) then yes, we have many dialects in romanian. But this is not what I and others here understand when talking about dialetcs.

Sid, what does "dialect" mean in your conception ?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 09:17 am
Hi Zayets,

No. No joke.

You asked me to respond to something you had written earlier.

I asked you what it was, but just got ridicule in return.

I ask again, what is it that you want me to respond to? It is entirely possible that I missed something, but I don't know what unless you tell me what it is, or specify which post it was in.

You cannot reasonably accuse me of avoiding responding to something if you won't even tell me what or where it is.

Over to you.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Agarici August 18, 2005 09:18 am
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 18 2005, 04:35 AM)
if by dialect one understants same language with a different accent and a few different words (like subway vs. underground) then yes, we have many dialects in romanian.


... or "metro", that's how they call it in Washington DC! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Agarici August 18, 2005 09:22 am

... or the different names used in different states from USA for highway, which would also multiply the number of US English dialects... Let's get serious, folks...

Posted by: Zayets August 18, 2005 09:48 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 18 2005, 09:17 AM)
You cannot reasonably accuse me of avoiding responding to something if you won't even tell me what or where it is.

You're so full of it Sid.And it stinks.And I will show you why. Check this , the initial post:

CODE
Sid,would you care to explain how Latin took "gyrus" from Greek?


Can you spot the question mark at the end of the phrase?Goooood.Let's go further

CODE
Or your source is ,as always, wikipedia?


I see that there's another question mark there.Hmmm,that must be a coincidence.Or should I say ... circumstance (sic)

In fact,Sid,is not your lack of knowledge which is annoying,one can easy understand.What I find troublesome at least is the fact that you pose in a lingvistic expert when you don't have that quality even in your mother tongue.And all these based on some obscure notes found in a (how ironic is that) travel guide page.

As for that

QUOTE
I asked you what it was, but just got ridicule in return.


This I will take it as another fine joke.

On a final note,stop redirecting the thread to some other things.read the title of the thread and do post accordingly.
Take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 10:25 am
Hi Imperialist,

Good. We are now agreed that ultimately "gyrus" has Greek roots, and presumably that "Y" arrived in Latin from Greek by the route I claimed but you preferred to ridicule.

Congratulations. An explanation as to why imprejurare went from having no roots to being definitely Latin - at last. Why not just answer questions the first time they are asked? I have asked this of you before. It is quite painless!

Why the interest in the origin of "gyrus"? You brought it up, so presumably you had your reasons.

Romanian has Greek-derived words in its vocabulary. Why should "gyrus" not have been assimilated directly from Greek? After all, you initially said that imprejurare had no provenance and then declared that it was Latin without giving a source. If you were (a) consistent and (cool.gif responsive to questions, this diversion would probably not have happened at all.

No equivalence? The Greek "guro" also means "around" (Langenscheidt Standard Greek Dictionary). "Circa" means "around". Both are used as prefixes in a similar way in both Romanian and English (i.e. circumferinta and giroscop).

The key questions about "circumstantia" are whether it was used in Classical Latin with the modern meaning (in which case "circumstanta" may well be derived directly from it) or whether it is Medieval Latin and (in which case it probably reached Romanian via French). Do you know which? If the latter is the case and it is attributed in a dictionary solely to Latin, then the dictionary may not be reflecting the arrival of French loan words.

I am not trying to "prove" anything. I did not start this thread. My contribution has grown organically in response to questions and statements by others, in exactly the same way that yours has. Sometimes I make mistakes and you jump on them. Sometimes you make mistakes and I jump on them.

What do I want? The facts. Anything that is not soundly based should not be allowed to pass unchallenged, be it by you, me or anybody else.

I clearly overstated my case and went beyond the evidence when I suggested that French Grammarians were used to help assemble the FIRST Romanian dictionaries and grammars. But my original question about whether your figure for Latin-derived content in the Romanian language referred to today or 200 years ago remains valid. The vocabulary of the Romanian language has changed enormously in the last 200 years. As a result of largely French-derived words the "Latin" proportion has clearly grown greatly and the Slavic proportion has declined. So, which Romanian vocabulary were you referring to? Today's or 200 years ago?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 10:42 am
Hi Zayets,

There. That wasn't so difficult, was it?

I have, in fact, already answered this question in my posts to Imperialist and
he has had the good grace to agree that Latin took "gyros" from Greek.

Anyway, for your personal benefit:

Firstly, The Cassel's Latin Dictionary says so on p.270, giving the original Greek word in Greek letters.

Secondly, the letter "Y" was not originally in Latin. P.650 of the same dictionary says "Y,y, a letter borrowed from the Greek in order to represent the Greek upsilon (Y)."

No. My source was not Wikipedia - as would also have been clear if you had read what I posted to Imperialist.

You are absolutely right. We are way off thread. Will you be reminding Imperialist, Agarici and D13th Mytzu as well. Or am I specially favoured?

I am sorry if I haven't responded as quickly as you would like to your questions, but I have answered your questions elswhere in posts to others.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 18, 2005 10:44 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 18 2005, 10:25 AM)

Good. We are now agreed that ultimately "gyrus" has Greek roots, and presumably that "Y" arrived in Latin from Greek by the route I claimed but you preferred to ridicule.

No,I do not agree with this.You brought no proof (ie. scan,web page etc).Besides,it has nothing to do with the thread subject.
I am saying that "gyrus" has ultimately (as you said) Sanscrite roots.Prove me wrong.

Now,lets take this gem :

QUOTE
Why should "gyrus" not have been assimilated directly from Greek


On which basis?Greek influence in Romanian language appeared centuries later than their (presumably) latin counterparts.

Now,lets see this:

QUOTE
I am not trying to "prove" anything. I did not start this thread. My contribution has grown organically in response to questions and statements by others, in exactly the same way that yours has. Sometimes I make mistakes and you jump on them. Sometimes you make mistakes and I jump on them.

What do I want? The facts. Anything that is not soundly based should not be allowed to pass unchallenged, be it by you, me or anybody else.

I clearly overstated my case and went beyond the evidence when I suggested that French Grammarians were used to help assemble the FIRST Romanian dictionaries and grammars. But my original question about whether your figure for Latin-derived content in the Romanian language referred to today or 200 years ago remains valid. The vocabulary of the Romanian language has changed enormously in the last 200 years. As a result of largely French-derived words the "Latin" proportion has clearly grown greatly and the Slavic proportion has declined. So, which Romanian vocabulary were you referring to? Today's or 200 years ago?


You proved NOTHING yet.You came with two obscure sources not backed by any scientific support.That was it all.You ignored,and then redirected the discussion to totally different things, everything what was said and proved by all person here.When they dare to challenge you , you called them ridicule or something else.
Therefore is clear that you don't want any facts at all.You want to stir the pot and then dissapear.
One final thing.Romanian language is changing even now.Dramaticaly.But you can't see that since all your experience regarding this resumes to your brief presence in this thread.Claiming that Romanian language changed dramaticaly in 200 years is exactly like saying English language uses Latin alphabet.Obvious,isnt it?
I do hope that you'll intervene on this issue without REAL proofs
Take care

LATER EDIT:
QUOTE
You are absolutely right. We are way off thread. Will you be reminding Imperialist, Agarici and D13th Mytzu as well. Or am I specially favoured?

No you are not at all favoured(or favored using English American "dialect").You merely started deviating from the subject.I know is boring to look back in the thread,but do me a favor and check it.You will see how "ridicule" you are then.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 11:13 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

I have answered your question directly three times, amplifying it each time. What I cannot do is make you like the answer.

To put it in the most basic form, every English speaker, everywhere speaks in one dialect or another. There are no exceptions. The Queen speaks RP. Mick Jagger speaks Estuary. The current President speaks a variety of Southern and his father New England.

There is no "official language of the United States". Look it up under Google "Official Language USA". The entire premise of your question is wrong.

On the subject of dialects I offer you the following from the 1962 Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol.19:

"The Romanian literary language is based mainly on the Daco-Romanian dialect of Walachia. It assumed importance only at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries. Before that all literary output was dialectical" The sources given at the end of this article are almost all Romanian. Here are some.

O. Densusianu - Histoire de la langue roumaine (1901-32)
S. Puscariu - Etymologisches Worterbuch der rumanischen Sprache (1905) and Limba Romana (1940)
Collective authorship - Atlasul lingvistic roman (1938 et seq.)

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 11:14 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

I have answered your question directly three times, amplifying it each time. What I cannot do is make you like the answer.

To put it in the most basic form, every English speaker, everywhere speaks in one dialect or another. There are no exceptions. The Queen speaks RP. Mick Jagger speaks Estuary. The current President speaks a variety of Southern and his father New England.

There is no "official language of the United States". Look it up under Google "Official Language USA". The entire premise of your question is wrong.

On the subject of dialects I offer you the following from the 1962 Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol.19:

"The Romanian literary language is based mainly on the Daco-Romanian dialect of Walachia. It assumed importance only at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries. Before that all literary output was dialectical" The sources given at the end of this article are almost all Romanian. Here are some.

O. Densusianu - Histoire de la langue roumaine (1901-32)
S. Puscariu - Etymologisches Worterbuch der rumanischen Sprache (1905) and Limba Romana (1940)
Collective authorship - Atlasul lingvistic roman (1938 et seq.)

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: Agarici August 18, 2005 11:24 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 18 2005, 10:42 AM)
You are absolutely right. We are way off thread. Will you be reminding Imperialist, Agarici and D13th Mytzu as well. Or am I specially favoured?



Sid, if you read carefully my posts you’ll see that in each one (except those where the main subject was a joke smile.gif ) I was trying not to lose contact with the issue in discussion in this topic, linking the debate about the language with aspects related to Transylvania’s history and culture.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 12:13 pm
Hi Zayets,

Why would I want to prove you wrong that "gyrus" has Sanskrit roots?

If you have evidence of this, feel free to present it, in exactly the same way as I have given you the "gyrus" source.

Has Romanian got other Sanskrit words in it?

I know both Greeks and Romans had contact with Romanians. When did this contact with Sanskrit occur?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 12:26 pm
Hi Guys,

It is clear that we are at crossed purposes regarding the meaning of "dialect".

Can we have some sourced Romanian definitions of "dialect"? My Romanian-English dictionary has the Romanian for "dialect" as English "dialect". However, it appears from our conversation that they may not have identical definitions.

From my dictionary, (Teora, 2004) the English definitions for grai are "speech", "language", "idiom" and "voice".

However, when I look up the English word "idiom" it includes "dialect" amongst its Romanian definitions.

I think some clarification as to the precise meaning of "dialect" and "grai" is necessary.

What does the DEX+S say on these two words?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 12:38 pm
Hi Agarici,

I owe you an apology for not yet answering your posts, which are probably the most substantial on the thread.

I am giving priority to existing correspondents, and this can be somewhat burdensome.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Agarici August 18, 2005 12:43 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 18 2005, 12:38 PM)
Hi Agarici,

I owe you an apology for not yet answering your posts, which are probably the most substantial on the thread.

I am giving priority to existing correspondents, and this can be somewhat burdensome.

Cheers,

Sid.


It's all right, take your time...

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 12:45 pm
Hi Guys,

One more confusion. My Teora 2004 gives the following translations:

Patois: grai; dialect.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 18, 2005 01:01 pm
I thought thread is closed for moderation.Anyway...

Is quite simple Sid.You claimed that "jur" came in Romanian language from Greek.
You did not said direct simply because you knew that is absurd.Greek influence in the current Romanian language appeared much more later
than Latin when Greek people made massive appearence in what is know today as Romania.This happened especially after 1453 once the Byzantine Empire fallen.
Now,you cannot claim that two very different languages (Greek and Latin) brought the same word into the language (be this Romanian if this pleases you).
You cannot make a paralel between reintroducing a certain word in Romanian (or any other language for this matter) like that : Latin->French/Italian and Greek->Latin.
The reason is more than obvious,French and Italian are Latin at origins where as Latin cannot be said it has Greek origin.Or are you suggesting that latin has Greek origin or derives from Greek?
I have proven to you how word were reintroduced from Latin giving you examples,you did not.All you have said is that according to Casell's (BTW is not Cassel with double s ) gyrus origin in Latin is the Greek word "guros".
Good,now I am asking you,what does this add to the discussion?You said that probably "jur" came from "guros" (Greek) and that it might not be that crazy afterall.
Then,I have asked you to prove it.Which you didn't and you are just avoiding the answer.As you might be surprised to find that "guros" in Greek has most probably another origin which is not Greek afterall,but Sanskrite,Phenician,Myceean etc.
Folowing your logic,Romanian language has Phenician roots.Your theories are good around(sic) a pint of ale when nobody pays too much attention but they fail when is about gathering proofs.
Take care

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 18, 2005 02:24 pm
QUOTE
To put it in the most basic form, every English speaker, everywhere speaks in one dialect or another. There are no exceptions. The Queen speaks RP. Mick Jagger speaks Estuary. The current President speaks a variety of Southern and his father New England.

There is no "official language of the United States". Look it up under Google "Official Language USA". The entire premise of your question is wrong.


Heh, there lies our problem - we understand this word in different ways. I for one understand by "dialect" modified languages derived from a common source (like the chinese dialects), while speaking the same language with the same words but with a different accent I do not consider "dialect", if I did, then there would be way too many dialects in each city (won't even mention a country), so in order for me to consider a way of speaking a dialect, its vocabulary has to differ a lot from the original one which is not the case here. Many times people who speak different dialects of the same language cannot understand among themselfs due to the degree of difference of the two. Hope you now understand why I oposed so much to the ideea that romanian language has 5 dialects.
But if I consider your way of understanding the word "dialect" then your "source" is wrong again - romanian language would have many more dialects then 5, depending how far on the road you get smile.gif

As for US and official language - I find it hard to belive there is a country without an official language (especially when to become citizen of that country you must prove you speak english language). but anything is possible :]

PS: the admins changed the name of this thread so please stop fighting about such a silly thing.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 18, 2005 03:07 pm
Hi D13th Mytzu,

Actually, I tend to agree that just pronouncing things differently is rather a thin basis for a "dialect".

However, there are more than just accent differences between the various English dialects around the world. There are large numbers of words that have different meanings. To name just ten that I can think of immediately:

Found in America - billfold, fender, chip, ATM, freeway, jelly, trunk, math, sidewalk, faucet.

Found in Britain - wallet, bumper, crisp, cashpoint, motorway, jam, maths, pavement, tap.

There are also archaic English hangovers present in America long lost or changed in the UK, such as "fall" instead of "autumn", "dove" instead of "dived", the systemic use of the suffix "-ize" instead of "-ise", etc.

The USA is not the only country without an official language. Britain has no official language either. The idea of "official" languages is often bound up in the emergence of nationalism. Countries which feel threatened by external cultural influences tend to adopt them as assertions of national identity.

It is no coincidence that just as Spanish is re-emerging as a widely spoken first language in parts of the USA, (with its own schools, libraries, etc.) a lively debate has opened up there about the possible adoption of English as an "official" language.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 18, 2005 03:42 pm
What would be the % of different words to consider the someone speaks a languaeg as a dialect ?

Posted by: Imperialist August 18, 2005 04:40 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 18 2005, 10:25 AM)
Hi Imperialist,

Good. We are now agreed that ultimately "gyrus" has Greek roots, and presumably that "Y" arrived in Latin from Greek by the route I claimed but you preferred to ridicule.

QUOTE
We are now agreed that ultimately "gyrus" has Greek roots, and presumably that "Y" arrived in Latin from Greek by the route I claimed but you preferred to ridicule.


I did not ridicule. All the evidence you gave was saying that the latin gyrus is from a greek word which appears in the dictionary but you cannot transcribe it here due to the fact that it was written in greek in the dictionary. Then you said about the letter Y. I first pointed out the letter doesn not necessarily mean the whole word is of greek origin, then I searched myself for a good source.
I found out about guros, and admitted my find.

QUOTE
Congratulations. An explanation as to why imprejurare went from having no roots to being definitely Latin - at last.


The fact that the word gyrus (the origin of jur) has as origin the greek word guros is an explanation as to why imprejurare went from having no origin to being definetly latin? Is this irony or something, because I dont see the logic in this. Earlier when I said that gyrus was the origin of jur, imprejurare was not of latin origin? I lied or something? Please clarify.

QUOTE
Why the interest in the origin of "gyrus"? You brought it up, so presumably you had your reasons.


Actually you brought it up, by contesting the latin origin of imprejurare and/or jur and asking for evidence... I did not bring this up...

QUOTE
Romanian has Greek-derived words in its vocabulary. Why should "gyrus" not have been assimilated directly from Greek? After all, you initially said that imprejurare had no provenance and then declared that it was Latin without giving a source.


Because the Dictionarul Explicativ al Limbii Romane, compiled by competent and prefessional linguists mentions that the origin of the word jur is gyrus, not guros.
Will you contest the accuracy of these professional linguists' findings?

And for the third time already, I said imprejurare does not have a SPECIFIED origin next to it, but it is a composed word and the latin origin of the words that enter its composition is CLEARLY pointed out in the dictionary. I dont think this is hard to understand... is it.

QUOTE
No equivalence? The Greek "guro" also means "around" (Langenscheidt Standard Greek Dictionary). "Circa" means "around".


I see that you finally caught up with the fact that the word is circa. Congratulations.

First you said that the latin word gyros, of greek origin, was equivalent with the latin word circum. It was on the Aug 17 2005, 11:25 AM message, on this page: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=105 :

QUOTE
"Gyros" is a word of Greek origin and is the Greek equivalent of Latin "circum".


Nevertheless now you want to show that the greek guro is the equivalent of circa. Very subtle, but very DIFFERENT. You are trying inch by inch to bring the issue where you actually want it -- jur is not latin but of greek origin, from guros. Sid, this is an agenda, or a goal, if agenda is too harsh a word. You obviously have a goal here... or you mess things up real bad.
How on earth could you say "gyros is a word of greek origin and is the greek equivalent of Latin circum"? By God, thats weird. I thin you meant "the latin word gyros, of greek origin, is the latin equivalent of circum.

As I said, though, gyrus and circa do not have the same meaning. Gyrus means just circle, spiral, while circa means in circle, in spiral, around.

QUOTE
But my original question about whether your figure for Latin-derived content in the Romanian language referred to today or 200 years ago remains valid. The vocabulary of the Romanian language has changed enormously in the last 200 years. As a result of largely French-derived words the "Latin" proportion has clearly grown greatly and the Slavic proportion has declined. So, which Romanian vocabulary were you referring to? Today's or 200 years ago?


I was referring to today's vocabulary.
You still havent found an answer for the 15% that are completely absent from that belgian travel guide...

And to point out another HUGE error, deliberate or not, on the same message I quoted further up:

QUOTE
A couple of days ago your dictionary reportedly didn't give a source for imprejurare. Now it apparently does.

That source, according to you, gives "gyrus" as a Latin root, whereas in fact "gyrus" is of Greek origin.


The source, according to me, gives gyrus as the origin of jur. Just that, it does not go into the further origin of gyrus (greek), because I see you still dont understand that gyrus is a latin word, though its origin is greek, the same way as the greek guros is greek though its origin could very well be any other older language.

Posted by: Victor August 18, 2005 06:38 pm
QUOTE (Agarici @ Aug 17 2005, 08:37 PM)
PS: I'm not a linguist neither, Victor, so nobody would ask so much from you. But did you use to skip the Romanian language classes in gymnasia? tongue.gif Or maybe you weren't paying attention, thinking of... Romanian army in WW2? biggrin.gif

Let's just say it wasn't high in my list of priorities, but at least it was higher than biology.

IIRC the language particularities in the different parts of the country were called "regionalisms".

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 09:26 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

I suspect that there is no "%" of different words that distinguishes a language from a dialect. Nor could there be, as other factors such as promounciation, grammar, etc. are involved.

In the various background reading I have done for this thread, I have found, for instance, that not all linguistics agree that Istro-Romanian, Megeleno-Romanian and Aromanian are dialects of Romanian. Some think that as they are almost mutually incomprehsible they should be considered separate Romance languages, in the way that Spanish and Portugues are.

I see language as a continuum. If you look at the various definitions in my Teora Romanian-English dictionary of language, patois, dialect and grai that I mention above there seems to be no strict division.

When we get Romanian definitions of dialect and grai, this may be clarified, but I doubt those will be able to provide a "%" answer as it is almost certainly not a subject susceptible to such mathematical quantification.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 19, 2005 09:50 am
QUOTE
In the various background reading I have done for this thread, I have found, for instance, that not all linguistics agree that Istro-Romanian, Megeleno-Romanian and Aromanian are dialects of Romanian.


Those are not romanians so it doesn't even matter what they speak (meaning it does not serve our purposes in this discussion - not mine or yours).

About the % thing, if one wishes to make a strict definition then I gues you MUST define what would be a minimum ammount of words that should be different to declare a language a dialect.
Lets think about our issue: you consider romanians within romania speak different dialects, however they have same vocabulary and same grammar. What is different is their accent (something like british accent, US accent, australian accent..) and very few words - example: tuica/palinca which is a strong alcoholic drink, in Muntenia it is called "tuica" and in Ardeal it is called "palinca" , or certain food types, but the basic vocabulary (water, house, sky, child, forest, tree, flower, sheep, etc. etc. etc.) is the same. So as you can see only a very small amount of words and the accent are different, now how would you tell appart two dialects or same language with different accents ande very few different words ? Using a % for this would be a good ideea - like if you have more then 3% of different words then you call it a dialect (this is just an example).

Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 10:25 am
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 19 2005, 09:50 AM)
example: tuica/palinca which is a strong alcoholic drink, in Muntenia it is called "tuica" and in Ardeal it is called "palinca"

Not that it serves this discussion,but I don't think that one from Muntenia minds to have a "palinca" or one from Ardeal to have a "tuica" as long as both are good quality.

Posted by: tomcat1974 August 19, 2005 10:30 am
Denes will tell you about the Palinca.. which is Hungarian origin word.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 10:32 am
Hi Imperialist.

Yes. You were completely up front about your find regarding "guros".

I tried to find Latin words with a "Y" that were not of Greek origin. After looking at a couple of dozen in my dictionary I couldn't find any. This is not exactly a fully comprehensive scientific survey, but it does imply that if there are any non-Greek words in classical Latin with a "Y" they are few and far between. If you have any suggested Latin "Y" words for me to check, I would be happty to do so.

The issue of origins arose because we were discussing with regaard to "circumstantia" whether French-derivation should be recognised as separate from Latin-derivation. If one holds that French-derivation is of no relevance, and all should be classified as Latin, then the logical extension of this is that Latin words of foreign origin (i.e. "gyrus") should be ascribed to their native tongue (in "gyrus" case Greek - unless one is Zayets, in which case Sanskrit seems to be an option.)

If one discounts all foreign loan words in Classical Latin and ignores all intermediate Romance languages through which classical Latin words travelled in order to reach Romanian, then one will come up with an entirely contrived percentage of the Romanian language's "Latinness" that obscures the real origins of the modern vocabulary. From the statistics I offered earlier, and to which no one else has offered any alternatives yet, it would appear that only about 20% of the Romanian vocabulary is directly derived from Latin historically via old Romanian. Somewhere between two and three times as much seems to be of modern assimilation, mostly from French.

No. You did not lie. Nor have I suggested this.

The "gyrus" trail leads back to "imprejurare", which is not a word I introduced into the discussion. When I asked a question about its origins, you also first produced "gyrus". There is nothing discreditable in this.

I would remind you that you could initially offer no attribution for "imprejurare" and it took repeated requests from me to find out what dictionary you were using. I was operating in a vacuum of information from you. In these circumstances it was perfectly reasonable to ask whether "-jur-" might not have arrived directly from Greek, like a number of other words also in Romanian.

I would also point out that the prefix "giro-", which has exactly the same roots, is present in Romanian in a number of other words that are clearly too modern to have been derived directly by Latin descent within Romanian.

It may have escaped your notice that there is also a Latin word "circum" from which the prefix "circum-" is derived. Are we discussing "circumferinta" or "circaferinta"? As both circa and circum have almost the same meaning, I saw no particular point in making an issue of it. But as you seem to want to score bogus points on this issue, can I expect to be offering you reciprocal congratulations when you agree to the fact that there IS a Latin word "circum"?

You have now written several times that "imprejurare" does not have a specified origin to it but that its component parts are all of Latin origin. The problem arose because you did not include the second part in your original post and then produced one component that is actually of Greek origin. Anyway you will be happy to hear that this is all now perfectly clear and doesn't require endless repeating. I think everyone has the message.

I'll just post this. back soon.











.















Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 10:50 am
Sid,this is a nice question for you I was thinking to ask you from very begining but I thought I'll rather enjoy the show.
Tell me,or tell us, if 38.4% of actual Romanian dictionary is coming from French (supposedly in the 19th century) as you try to make us believe,what were those words at origin before? What did we replaced with the new French words? Words of Turks origin?Slavic?English? Please do enlight me

Posted by: Imperialist August 19, 2005 10:53 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 19 2005, 10:32 AM)


You have now written several times that "imprejurare" does not have a specified origin to it but that its component parts are all of Latin origin. The problem arose because you did not include the second part in your original post and then produced one component that is actually of Greek origin. Anyway you will be happy to hear that this is all now perfectly clear and doesn't require endless repeating. I think everyone has the message.













.

QUOTE
The problem arose because you did not include the second part in your original post and then produced one component that is actually of Greek origin.


Again, I have to point out that whether the latin word gyros is of greek origin (from guros) is irrelevant, as professional linguists have traced back the origin of the romanian word jur to the latin gyros, not to the greek guros.

I ask again, do you dispute the results of their work?

You seem not to understand that the origin of the latin gyros was not the issue, but the origin of the romanian jur. And that origin is gyros. By continuing to claim that gyros has a greek origin from guros (which I did not dispute) you try to imply that the word jur has actually greek origin. Tracing back the origin of words in this manner will eventually lead you to the source of all indo-european languages, like Zayets pointed out, and I dont understand the point in doing that.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 10:54 am
To continue....

Spot the odd one out-

1) Langenscheidt Standard Greek Dictionary (1990): p.34. "guro, (adv) around".

2) Cassell's Latin Dictionary (1987): "circa, (alternative form for circum) (adv) around, round about.

3) Cassell's Latin Dictionary (1987): circum, (adv) round about, around.

4) Cassell's Latin Dictionary (1987): gyrus, (m) a circle, ring.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thank you for spotting my misprint. Of course I did mean Latin, not Greek.

Desirable as it might be, I don't have to find the 15% missing from the list. Even if they were all Latin-based words (which I rather suspect scholars are rather too well educated in Latin to miss) it would still leave less Latin-derived words than French-derived words. If I find an answer to the missing 15% I will tell you know immediately. Some will presumably be attributable to dead languages like Dacian and others to languages that contributed less than 1,7% (English perhaps?). Even then, there will always be words of indeterminate origin so you will probably never get a 100% answer. Until then we will both have to remain in ignorance and the missing 15% unattributed.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 19, 2005 11:08 am
QUOTE
Desirable as it might be, I don't have to find the 15% missing from the list. Even if they were all Latin-based words (which I rather suspect scholars are rather too well educated in Latin to miss) it would still leave less Latin-derived words than French-derived words.


Yes, you do have to find that.
What scholars? Who were the scholars who wrote that percentages on that belgian travel site? Hmm.... rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Even then, there will always be words of indeterminate origin so you will probably never get a 100% answer. Until then we will both have to remain in ignorance and the missing 15% unattributed.


A +/- 3-5% margin is one thing in a serious survey, a margin of +/- 15% is absurd. That number would never be left hanging like that.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 11:11 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

Aroman, Meleno-Romanian (spelling?) and Istro-Romanian are relevant to the discussion not because they are Romanian but because of the question over whether they should be considered languages or dialects. I could easily have used the examples of Catalan, Valencian or Gallego. I chose Aroman, Meleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian because I thought they might be of more interest to you than Iberian examples. Obviously not.

I have no objection to a % rule being applied to differentiate languages, dialects, patois and grai, but as I pointed out, it is not easily quantifiable as other factors than word lists are influential. You will have to ask linguists why a "%" rule has not been applied, if you want a definitive answer.

There is a branch of linguistics, glottochronology, that analyses basic word lists to establish relationships between languages. Perhaps this might be worth looking up.

Cheers,

Sid.






Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 11:29 am
Aroman, Megleno-Roman, Istro-Romanian could be considered Romanian dialects if you compare Catalan, Valencian or Gallego with Spanish. Although,I never heard about Valencian.That being said means that if we consider a number of common words as base then we can call it dialect.Or,I am not agree with that.It takes more than a common word base,like grammar for example.And I believe that Catalan is classified as language,not dialect.Is a very thin line.I am not prepared (professional) to answer that. What is you qualification , Sid?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 12:00 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I would point out again, that you firstly said that there was no given origin for imprejurare. You then gave an origin that included a word of ultimately Greek origin. You did all this while also repeatedly refusing to give a source. I have had no dispute with Romanian scholars on this subject. I have only had a dispute with your inability to be either consistent or provide sources promptly. Your Romanian scholars only appeared on my radar when you finally decided to give your source as DEX. Unless, of course, you consider yourself a Romanian scholar in this field?

Why not just reveal your source when you first put the words up, or at least when I first asked? Or do you think that your word has to be taken as gospel truth without question? I have tackled you about reluctance to give sources before and almost every time they have had to be dragged out of you by repeated requests.

So, you don't think it profitable to trace words back ad infinitum. Agreed! You get my point at last. If a word arrives in Romanian via French it should be registered as such, not merely as Latin. Ideally, of course, it would be registered as both. Does the DEX do this?

The "Belgian travel site" is apparently the work of "membres de la communaute roumaine de Belgique et de Luxembourg" and Luxemburg and Belgian "amis de la Roumanie". Professors of Linguistics they may not be, but they don't sound ill disposed towards Romania.

And the good news is that you can apparently ask them directly where they got their information from, because they have a Forum. Happy hunting!

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 19, 2005 12:20 pm
QUOTE
I would point out again, that you firstly said that there was no given origin for imprejurare. You then gave an origin that included a word of ultimately Greek origin. You did all this while also repeatedly refusing to give a source.


No I have originally said:

QUOTE

  Well, today we can find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the romanian dictionary.
  At imprejurare no ethymology is given (yet it is composed from words of latin origin -- but it doesnt say).


The message dated Aug 16 2005, 02:45 PM on this page: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=75

Later you questioned me about this and I further clarified that the origin of the words that enter that composition is given in their separate entries in the dictionary.

QUOTE
Your Romanian scholars only appeared on my radar when you finally decided to give your source as DEX.


And where exactly did you presume I was getting the ethymology of a word from, the cook book? Come on, Sid...

QUOTE
So, you don't think it profitable to trace words back ad infinitum. Agreed! You get my point at last. If a word arrives in Romanian via French it should be registered as such, not merely as Latin. Ideally, of course, it would be registered as both. Does the DEX do this?


DEX clearly identifies the words that are of french origin and the words that are of latin origin. And yes, there also are words that have both origins mentioned. So?

QUOTE
And the good news is that you can apparently ask them directly where they got their information from, because they have a Forum. Happy hunting!


Ofcourse, I have to do the hunting. Sid, this worked a while back, when you summoned me around as some kind of piccolo to search sources for everything I say. This time you made the allegations, you do the hunting, otherwise admit your mistake or lack of complete info.

And I'd like to point out unnecessary parts in your message, which can only serve to flame the thread:

I have only had a dispute with your inability to be either consistent or provide sources promptly.

I have tackled you about reluctance to give sources before and almost every time they have had to be dragged out of you by repeated requests.



take care


Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 12:25 pm
Imperialist beated me to it!. I was about to ask the same thing. The first occurence in this thread of the word imprejurare is this one
QUOTE
Well, today we can find both imprejurare and circumstanta in the romanian dictionary.
At imprejurare no ethymology is given (yet it is composed from words of latin origin -- but it doesnt say).
At circumstanta, lo and behold -- it says french and latin origin!


Further,Sid clears up all my doubts:

QUOTE
Is your judgement that "imprejurare" is of Latin roots your personal opinion or derived from other sources? Either way, it would be nice to know what these specific Latin roots are.


Sid,make up your mind,what facts do you want?Also,you did not respond my questions.Or should I point again which ones?

Oh Sid, one more thing,you brought NO PROOF YET THAT 38.4% are from French language. I'm still waiting.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 12:29 pm
Hi Zayets,

How are your Sanskrit studies going?

I am not advocating 38.4% of French origin. I put up a link that had this figure. Various people, including yourself, seem resistant to this figure, but have not come up with any sourced alternative. I am prepared to accept the 38.4% figure until someone else comes up with a new figure, provided its source is more verifiable than the 38.4% one - which should not be difficult.

There need not necessarily have been any words replaced by the 38.4% of French loan words. New technology and concepts require new words. For example, what Turkish word for "railway station" could have been replaced, given that the Turks initially had no railways.

Then there is the question of duplication, triplication, etc. Somebody on this thread mentioned the Slavic-derived word "boier", meaning "nobleman". I see that, amongst others, the French-derived word "gentilom" is also in the dictionary with this meaning.

I have no linguistics qualifications beyond schoolboy Latin, secondary school French and a bit of Spanish and Portuguese at university. In addition I have my personal reading. I imagine I am on the same level as most others on this thread.

But what really counts is what we post. We should be judged on that.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 12:41 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 19 2005, 12:29 PM)
I am not advocating 38.4% of French origin.

That's something new to me.Anyway-leaving my Sanscrite book away for awhile-I see now that I have been corectly anticipated your moves.You took a phrase somewhere,throw it somewhere where you know it will generate some heat and flee.
Is like someone is entering a pub,picking the most ferocious looking average worker and say : Your wife is a *lut!.Prove me wrong! Is exactly what you did. You never come with something: look what these guys are saying,What do you think about it?You jumped in the middle of a discussion (a thread about something totaly different) and said,pardon me , here's what is writen.
Sorry Sid, now you don't advocate 38.4%.You advocate what now?
You said that nobody came with alternative sources.What better sources do you want than the Romanian Dictionary?Be it DEX, DEX corected or Contemporary?If that's not a source then we talk for nothing because this is ultimately the object of this discussion,thesaurus of Romanian language.And as far as I know,most of it is kept between two covers and its called dictionary.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 01:13 pm
Hi Imperialist,

So, are we agreed that the Latin word "circum" exists?

And that you introduced both "imprejurare" and "gyrus" into the thread?

You are as usual trying to bury things deep in the thread without addressing them by piling more posts on top. There is lots in my earlier post you are, as usual, evading. Come on. Fess up.

So you wrote "At imprejurare no etymology is given. Yet it is composed of words from Latin origin - but it doesn't say". This is (1) a clear statement that no origin is given, followed by (2) a completely unsupported contradictory assertion that it is Latin.

How am I meant to know what dictionary you have? Indeed, until you actually give details, how am I meant to know you have a dictionary at all? Give sources and answer questions and you won't get in these unnecessary messes.

So? So it is clear that the DEX will tell us what proportions of the language came via French and we can sort out the "38.4%" issue on a higher level than "No it isn't" - "Yes it is". As a sample, why not take the bottom right word on each page and add up their origins? I shall be interested to learn the result. I am not wedded to 38.4%, but I am wedded to the demand for some evidence to the contrary.

I think your logic is faulty. I am not questioning the 38.4% figure one way or the other. You are. The onus is therefore on you to follow it up. On top of this, it would be better if I was not mediating between you and a source. The less links in the chain the better.

I have now given you two possible ways of tackling the 38.4% figure controversy. Whether you choose either or a third route is entirely up to you. One can lead a horse to water, but one can't make it drink.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. You can avoid the "unnecessary parts" of my post by providing sources promptly, not inventing portions of my posts (i.e."British scholars"???), refusing to either substantiate or withdraw accusations (still outstanding on both this and earlier threads) and being evasive (by trying to bury awkward posts in a flood of short diversionary posts).

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 01:28 pm
Hi Zayets,

Sanskrit AND sluts! You lead a varied life.

1) The 38.4% figure is not mine. It is simply the best available on this thread by default. The source may not be directly scholastic, but it is apparently primarily Romanian and well disposed towards Romania.

2) I am perfectly happy to accept a better sourced alternative. All you have to do is find one. If I find one I will also put it up.

I have suggested two possible courses of action to Imperialist that might help resolve this issue. They are also open to you.

If you two don't wish to do so, then I will myself add up the origins of the words at the bottom right of each page of the DEX next time I am in the British Library in London. However, this will not be for several months. So if you want a quick result, without the risk of me falsifying the count, you would be better advised to do it youselves.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 19, 2005 01:53 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 19 2005, 01:28 PM)
Hi Zayets,

Sanskrit AND sluts! You lead a varied life.

1) The 38.4% figure is not mine. It is simply the best available on this thread by default. The source may not be directly scholastic, but it is apparently primarily Romanian and well disposed towards Romania.

2) I am perfectly happy to accept a better sourced alternative. All you have to do is find one. If I find one I will also put it up.

I have suggested two possible courses of action to Imperialist that might help resolve this issue. They are also open to you.

If you two don't wish to do so, then I will myself add up the origins of the words at the bottom right of each page of the DEX next time I am in the British Library in London. However, this will not be for several months. So if you want a quick result, without the risk of me falsifying the count, you would be better advised to do it youselves.

Cheers,

Sid.

I did not write sluts.Is you.Besides I hardly doubt that I lead such a life.But that's your oppinion and I do not intend to change it.Any other insults you have in your bag?

1)Nope,is not yours you like to be yours and is what you advocate here even if you came lately with something saying contrary.The source you gave is not Romanian,yet directed to Romania.Is a travel guide.Say no more.

2)Yes,I pointed you to one of them.Go on and count any word,I am not afraid of you falsifying the count.I know what's in there since I was in the primary school.

I may point you now to something you previously wrote:
QUOTE
There need not necessarily have been any words replaced by the 38.4% of French loan words. New technology and concepts require new words. For example, what Turkish word for "railway station" could have been replaced, given that the Turks initially had no railways.


How does this go whit your initial claim?Re-latinization?Because you said is not necesary to replace some words,right?New technology and concepts not necessarly implies new words although this is mostly the case.Is what we call "neologisme"(Greek origin word and I let you the pleasure to find how it was composed).There's even such a dictionary.Obviously not everything in it is of French origin.
Here is a nice essay (in Romanian but you can babelfish -it) : http://www.muntealb.com/LimbaRomana-bn.htm

Take care

Posted by: Imperialist August 19, 2005 02:07 pm
I have browsed the thread from the beginning to the moment where the word "circumstanta" comes up.

Here is a chronological list of Sid's most important statements and allegations.

They are chronologically listed. Due to the large size of the post, I will refrain from commenting them in this post, however, I have underlined the statements that in my opinion change as the discussion goes on, without Sid withdrawing them or whatever. I have also underlined in red some parts.
I suggest that those interested in understanding what the heck happened on this thread would better go to the links themselves and see what was said, and the context.

1. Message on -- Aug 12 2005, 10:48 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=0

QUOTE

Does the 80%-15% ratio refer to today's Romanian language or to the Romanian language before French grammarians began to root out Slavic loan words and replace them with Latin-derived words in the early 19th Century?
At the same time the Bulgarians were employing Russian grammarians to root out Latin-derived words and replace them with Slavic words. This "purification" of languages in order to reinforce national identities is a widespread phenomenon, even today.


2. -- Aug 12 2005, 03:48 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=0

QUOTE

My Romania/Rominia example (sorry, I can't render circumflexes) was not about phonetics. It was about the over riding of phonetics for nationalist reasons.


3. -- Aug 13 2005, 11:50 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=15

QUOTE
For example, is modern Romanian not based on the Bucharest dialect? This presumably means that it superceded local dialects within the public education system.


4. -- Aug 15 2005, 11:39 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

QUOTE
Perhaps Imperialist would care to explain where this high French content came from, given that France had little contact, let alone influence, on what became Romania before the 19th Century?


5. -- Aug 15 2005, 12:00 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

QUOTE

What I don't understand is why Imperialist is trying to pretend that "Re-Latinisation" of the Romanian language was not widespread from the early 19th Century and that the main source was French.


6. -- Aug 15 2005, 12:23 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=30

QUOTE
Now, does your "interaction" and "borrowing organically/naturally" include the work of the Academia Romana, which was set up in the image of the Academie Francais, to foster the Romanian language and produce its defining vocabularies, dictionaries and grammars?
    To me, in a country where no such institution exists, this look likes official intervention. What do you think?


7. -- Aug 15 2005, 01:32 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

QUOTE

Rather interesting that he changes the title of his 1836 grammar from "vallaque" to "roumaine" for the 1840 edition, don't you think?


8. -- Aug 15 2005, 02:05 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

QUOTE
Once again we are left with your unsubstantiated opinions on a subject versus contradictory sourced expert evidence. Once again I find no difficulty in preferring the latter.


9. -- Aug 15 2005, 02:53 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

QUOTE
You asked for the names of influential French scholars. I give you four names. Not only that, but I give you details of a book written by one who changes the wording of the title from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between the editions of 1836 and 1840. Why do I think Vaillant changed his titles? Because he was a firm advocate of Romanian nationalism (read his biography).


10. -- Aug 15 2005, 03:41 PM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=45

QUOTE

For example, I asked you for details of pre-1837 Romanian dictionaries. No answer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some, but you haven't offered any, have you?
    I put up a list that claims that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French origin. You offer no explanation how these words infiltrated the Academia Romana's official dictionary, if not as part of an official policy.


11. -- SAME

QUOTE
In Vaillant you have evidence of a French scholar long resident in Romania publishing several books on Romanian linguistics who was actively engaged in Romanian nationalist politics. It was what you asked for. He even seems to have changed a book title to conform with Romanian nationalist trends.



12. -- SAME

QUOTE
You are in denial about the influence of French scholars on the development of the Romanian language in the 19th Century and don't recognise that there was a deliberate national policy to "Relatinise" the language by consciously and deliberately favouring the adoption of mostly French loan words. there is nothing wrong with this, so I don't understand what your instinctive resistance to this proposition is based on.


13. -- SAME

QUOTE
You don't like the proposition that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary is of French derivation. OK. Produce some evidence to the contrary.
    As always, I am perfectly willing to accept well-supported propositions.
All I ask is that you bring such evidential support forward.


14. -- Aug 16 2005, 09:13 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

QUOTE
Your argument is not with me, but with professional linguists. I am merely the conduit.
    They have identified five dialects of Romanian in Romania and three outside.
    They have also identified that 38.4% of the current Romanian vocabulary derives from French.
    I am still left with a choice of you, presumably a non-specialist in linguistics, or professional linguists. If this is the only choice I have, then I am naturally going to favour the professionals over your personal anecdotes. If, however, you can enlist the support of professional linguists yourself, then your position is much better and I will, of course, have to give it more weight.


15. Aug 16 2005, 11:10 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

QUOTE
This is an important distinction. There seems to have been a conscious and deliberate effort to dump the term "Vlach" in favour of "Romanian" in the early 19th Century. This was presumably for nationalist reasons, as it helped to make explicit Romania's claims to a Roman descent, which the word "Vlach" would not. The change of the title of the French linguist Vaillant's grammar from "Vlach" to "Romanian" between 1836 and 1840 I would suggest is evidence of this.


16. -- SAME

QUOTE
If one only withdraws the 38.4% of later French-derived words from the calculation, the Romanian vocabulary of the early 19th Century would lose about half its words of Romance (ultimately Latin) origin and almost certainly be proportionally rather less Latin-derived than it is today.


17. -- SAME

QUOTE
A couple of days ago I found an internet source that says that half the Romanian language's Slavic-derived words are archaic - that is no longer in common use. This implies that they may have been gradually marginalised by Latin-derived equivalents.


18. -- Aug 16 2005, 11:16 AM http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=60

QUOTE
Fair comment. I am no great fan of internet sources myself. However, I don't have any other sources available.
    Now, to the point. Do you have any evidence that the site (which is not the only one to quote the 38.4% figure) wrong?


Posted by: Dénes August 19, 2005 02:15 pm
QUOTE (tomcat1974 @ Aug 19 2005, 04:30 PM)
Denes will tell you about the Palinca.. which is Hungarian origin word.

Actually, the word "pálinka" has Slovak origins (now that we are in the midst of an etymology war). However, the Slovaks brew it from wheat, while the Hungarians from fruit.

Certainly, the "pálinka" - which must have between 45-55% alcohol, opposite to the tuica, which has only 20-30%) - was introduced in Transylvania by Hungarians. Thus the Rumanian word "pãlincã" is originating from the Hungarian "pálinka".

Now, after this short commercial break, let's return the boxing ring to the main combattants... wink.gif

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Imperialist August 19, 2005 02:38 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 19 2005, 01:13 PM)


P.S. You can avoid the "unnecessary parts" of my post by providing sources promptly, not inventing portions of my posts (i.e."British scholars"???), refusing to either substantiate or withdraw accusations (still outstanding on both this and earlier threads) and being evasive (by trying to bury awkward posts in a flood of short diversionary posts).

QUOTE
I think your logic is faulty. I am not questioning the 38.4% figure one way or the other. You are. The onus is therefore on you to follow it up.


I dont intend wasting my time to chase the accuracy of unbacked unsourced data that you post from a travel site. If you would search for a more serious source giving those numbers, probably I would be interested in checking it out.

QUOTE
How am I meant to know what dictionary you have? Indeed, until you actually give details, how am I meant to know you have a dictionary at all? Give sources and answer questions and you won't get in these unnecessary messes.


The mess has been created by you, as you jumped on this thread from the french scholars helping the writing of the first dictionaries, to the nationalist reasons for "Romania" not Rominia, to the nationalist reasons to change vlach to romanian, to the French influential scholars (but not involved in helping to write the first dictionaries), to the words of French origin in the language. From re-latinisation to french origin words and a deliberate policy to borrow them, from that to your conclusion that by substracting the 38% the romanian language would be less latin than today.

If you want to clarify the mess you have created, please clarify what points you still maintain, what you withdraw, etc. And what exactly you want, as you obviously want to prove something, not to find out something.

QUOTE
So? So it is clear that the DEX will tell us what proportions of the language came via French and we can sort out the "38.4%" issue on a higher level than "No it isn't" - "Yes it is". As a sample, why not take the bottom right word on each page and add up their origins? I shall be interested to learn the result. I am not wedded to 38.4%, but I am wedded to the demand for some evidence to the contrary.


If you want to stand by your 38%, go and count the bottom right words of the ~ 1156 pages DEX.

QUOTE
So, are we agreed that the Latin word "circum" exists?


I never claimed it doesnt exist!
I said the word circum- is the prefix that is formed out of circa in the latin language. And I said that when you complained that you didnt find circum- in a latin dictionary. And I suggested look for circa. Remember?

[edit -- wait a sec, you claim that the word circum- exist independently, as a separate entry in the dictionary? ]

QUOTE
You can avoid the "unnecessary parts" of my post by providing sources promptly, not inventing portions of my posts (i.e."British scholars"???), refusing to either substantiate or withdraw accusations (still outstanding on both this and earlier threads) and being evasive (by trying to bury awkward posts in a flood of short diversionary posts).


I wont respond to gratuitous ego provocations.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 05:23 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Let me know when you are finished. I see no point in jumping in while you are in full flow.

The first was your tightest, best organised post yet.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 05:35 pm
Hi Zayets,

If "*lut" doesn't mean "slut", what does the "s" stand for?

Cheers,

Sid

Posted by: sid guttridge August 19, 2005 05:37 pm
Hi Zayets,

I'll rephrase that:

If "*lut" doesn't mean "slut", what does the "*" stand for?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 20, 2005 08:42 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 19 2005, 05:37 PM)
Hi Zayets,

I'll rephrase that:

If "*lut" doesn't mean "slut", what does the "*" stand for?

Cheers,

Sid.

"*" stands for "*" as it always did.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 20, 2005 09:35 am
Hi Zayets,

Nope. Can't find "*lut" in my dictionary. What does it mean if not "slut"?

Here is your choice of possibilities:

alut
blut
clut
dlut
elut
flut
glut
hlut
ilut
jlut
klut
llut
mlut
nlut
olut
plut
qlut
rlut
slut
tlut
ulut
vlut
wlut
xlut
ylut
zlut

Or perhaps it was not English? If not, which language?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 20, 2005 09:51 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 20 2005, 09:35 AM)
Hi Zayets,

Nope. Can't find "*lut" in my dictionary. What does it mean if not "slut"?

Here is your choice of possibilities:

alut
blut
clut
dlut
elut
flut
glut
hlut
ilut
jlut
klut
llut
mlut
nlut
olut
plut
qlut
rlut
slut
tlut
ulut
vlut
wlut
xlut
ylut
zlut

This is definetly off-topic trolling.


Posted by: Victor August 20, 2005 10:08 am
This is going nowhere.

Posted by: Imperialist August 20, 2005 10:11 am
QUOTE (Victor @ Aug 20 2005, 10:08 AM)
This is going nowhere.

I'll edit my last post, to eliminate personal references. But the *lut/slut discussion is pointless.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 20, 2005 10:16 am
Hi Agarici,

Thank you for your considered post.

What you write about the limitations of internet sources is absolutely correct, as I have already said in an earlier post. However, mine are not quite as limited as you suggest. The "illustrious anonym" you mention would appear to be Dr. Cynthia L Hallen, who runs a lnguistics course at Brigham Young University. The "travel guide" is composed by the Romanian community in Belgium and Luxemburg and Belgian and Luxemburger "friends of Romania", and so, if hardly academic, may at least be presumed to be friendly toward Romania.

That still leaves the statistics contained in those internet sources. If they are wrong, there is presumably another set of statistics that corrects them. So far nobody has supplied any apart from Imperialists's completely unsourced "80%" of Latin origin, which triggered this particular discussion in the first place. (In the interests of ballance, will you also be pressing him on this matter of HIS source?)

I should point out that what I have posted was never based entirely on the internet. I have only consulted the internet since this disputation began. My initial questions were based on previous casual reading over the years. I think it also worth pointing out that however limited my sources, you didn't offer any at all in your entire last post.

I have never suggested that at 20% direct Latin inheritance Romanian did not have a "proportion similaire dans toutes les autres langues neo-latines". On the other hand, Imperialist thinks 20% is too low and wants to co-opt the unattributed 15% as Latin without any evidence. (In the intersts of fairness, will you also be pressing him on this?)

I have always recognised that "Les mots roumains herites du Latin representent depuis toujours dans le roumain, le noyau de base du vocabulaire". Please do not suggest otherwise.

I would ask you to withdraw the allegation that I "deliberately" omitted to reproduce what you have quoted. It is untrue and there is no evidence for it. All that you have quoted is freely available via links that I have provided to you. The whole point of supplying a link is to get the reader nearer a source and to save oneself the time consuming task of copying it word for word. Both are entirely reputable reasons. In all reasonableness, you can hardly accuse me of deliberately omitting something when simultaneously using my link to it. Please modify the unworthy suggestion that I "deliberately omitted" the passages concerned. In fact I made them available and for that you should be grateful, not accusatory.

"Re-Latinisation" was not my term. It came from the university linguistic link I gave. What is more, I have already proposed an alternative - Romancisation - to more accurately reflect the intermediate role of other Romance languages (predominantly French) in supplying words to the modern Romanian vocabulary. (Aug 16 2005 11:10AM).

Thank you for the more detailed survey of Romanian scholarship before the advent of French linguists. As it is, Imperialist has already satisfactorily demonstrated to me that the Lexiconul de la Buda did not have any French authors and pre-dates by some ten years the first French connection I found. I would also point out that I repeatedly stated that perhaps there were older Romanian dictionaries and "wouldn't be surprised at all if there are some", but it took a fair amount of prodding to get details of it. (I would also point out that the Lexiconul de la Buda fails Imperialist's own objection to my mention of Vaillant's later Romanian-French dictionary. Imperialist was after a monolingual Romanian dictionary, but the Lexiconul de la Buda is apparently in four languages.)

As a matter of interest, when was the first monolingual, all-Romanian dictionary published?

Back in a minute.......

Posted by: sid guttridge August 20, 2005 10:20 am
Hi Victor and Imperialist,

Absolutely right. Firstly, here was no reason to use "*lut" in the first place and secondly, once it had been used, a straight answer to a straight question would have cleared it up.

If you want to edit out all posts with "*lut" in them, I would be fully in favour.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 20, 2005 10:23 am
Let me smile.Just a bit-> smile.gif

Here is another gem :

QUOTE
"Re-Latinisation" was not my term. It came from the university linguistic link I gave. What is more, I have already proposed an alternative - Romancisation - to more accurately reflect the intermediate role of other Romance languages (predominantly French) in supplying words to the modern Romanian vocabulary.


He proposed!To whom?With who's authority?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 20, 2005 11:33 am
Hi Agarici,

.......What you write about the utility of importating neologisms to provide a vocabulary for modernisation is self-evident. Equally self-evident is the fact that French had a disproportionate influence in this, even though France was not the leader in 19th Century modernisation. If purely organic growth based on modernisation accounted for 19th Century neologisms, one would perhaps expect English and German to have been the main sources of neologisms, with French third.

Furthermore, if organic growth of the language was unrestricted, as in the Anglo-Saxon world, there would be no need to make Romanian an official language and no need for an official academy to regulate the language. There is little doubt that Romania made a deliberate differential decision in favour of France and French models on a number of major subjects, including, I would suggest, as the preferred source of neologisms in the 19th Century. This was something that the core Romanian language's own Latin roots and French policy both coincided on. Nor is there anything wrong in this. I am making no value judgements here.

(As an aside, although not a direct threat like Austria-Hungary or Turkey or Russia, France was definitely not a great power without interest in the area - as the Crimean War illustrates. In the 19th Century France tried to expand its influence widely by emphasising shared Latin roots. For example, the term "Latin America" first came into vogue in France during this period. 19th Century France, especially the Second Empire, definitely saw itself as having vested interests in all the Latin world, even in Bucharest, the "Paris of the Balkans". This interventionist tradition continues today in the rather less ambitious form of defending "Francophonie".)

I would suggest that a low rate of literacy is an advantage, not a disadvantage, if one wants to modify a language. It affords an opportunity through the first public education and text books to influence the development of an illiterate majority. Indeed, I would suggeast that there are few better moments to shape a language than at the start of a national literacy campaign.

I have at no point referred to the replacing of Cyrillic by Latin script in the 19th Century. Imperialist has suggested I might be confusing this with vocabulary changes, but in fact I have never mentioned it. As a matter of interest, why was this change adopted if the relatively few literate Romanians in Wallachia and Moldova already used Cyrillic?

I never implied that the Slavic languages were "undefended" (an interesting choice of word perhaps implying that they were under attack?). I have suggested that the Slavic percentage of the Romanian vocabulary appears to have declined in the last 200 years and that much that remains is apparently archaic. I have seen no evidence produced here to contradict these propositions. Have you some?

I have never suggested that the Latin core of the Romanian language, which my "amateur" sources put at about 20%, was changed by French influence. I was talking about the impact of French on the whole modern Romanian vocabulary, which my amateur, but Romania-friendly, sources put at 38%. All vocabulary is not used with equal frequency. I have previously used the example of English on this thread. English has a similar proportion of Germanic- and Romance-derived words in its current overall vocabulary. However, the core language is Germanic and Germanic-derived words are used in everyday speech far more frequently than Latin-derived words. Similarly, in Romania it is prfectly possible, even likely, that words from a 20% Latin core would be used far more frequently than words from a French-derived 38% of the overall vocabulary. This could account for the difference between the day-to-day observation of native speakers and the actual contents of the vocabulary as represented in dictionaries.

My argumentation is not "undocumented". It is certainly "under-documented", but this doesn't of itself actually make it wrong.

Why are you looking to me in particular for some sort of "agenda" other than the pursuit of the facts? In the interests of ballance, will you also be questioning the "agendas" of others? This thread wasn't started by me and my contribution to it has grown organically in response to the posts of others - without an "agenda". I would point out that, as a complete outsider, I am inherently less likely to have an "agenda" on these particular issues than Romanians, so why is my "agenda" in particular question?

I beg to differ. Personal anecdote is no sustitute for the distilled essence of more widely accumulated knowledge and experience. That way lies irrationality. It is more rational to accept the opinion of a linguist than an individual native speaker. One has a great body of accumulated evidence behind them, while the other is essentially reliant on more limited personal observation. It is no reflection on the personal merits of the individual to prefer a specialist or collective opinion, but on the ballance of probablilities one would be better advised to heed the specialist or collective source.

I am not "giving lessons". I am essentially asking questions and responding to questions. I reserve the right to disagree or question further the replies I receive if I consider they are inadequate and others are entirely at liberty to do the same with me.

With regard to my attitude to Imperialist. He has a history on earlier threads of making allegations and then refusing either to substantiate what he alleges or withdraw it. This is deeply discreditable. It seems to be part of his debating style. In English vernacular this is known as "Playing the Man not the Ball" or "Blaming the Messenger, not the Message". If my attitude to him looks patronising, then this is undoubtedly a fault of mine, but there is a reason.

As you may have noticed, I check Romanian words used on the thread in my Teora 2004 dictionary. "Boier" is, if I am not mistaken, a Slavic-derived word for nobleman. I then looked up "nobleman" in the English end of the dictionary. It didn't give "boier". Instead it gave "nobil", "gentilom" and "pair", the English equivalents of which are all of medieval French origin according to the Oxford English Dictionary. As you are keen on "good old fashioned questions", are any of these in the Lexiconul de la Buda? If not, when did they arrive in the Romanian language and why, given that there was already the functional word "boier". (In this connection, it is perfectly acceptable to reply that such research is beyond your immediate resources. We can't all know the answer to everything and I fully accept that.)

Also, several days ago I asked for sourced Romanian definitions of "grai" and "dialect". These have not yet been forthcoming. As you are a particular advocate of "grai", can you supply such definitions?

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstandings you had about my earlier posts.

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 20, 2005 11:43 am
Hi Zayets,

How about actually engaging the proposition about "Romancisation"?

Who, precisely do we need "authority" from to make proposals?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Imperialist August 20, 2005 11:43 am
QUOTE
The "travel guide" is composed by the Romanian community in Belgium and Luxemburg and Belgian and Luxemburger "friends of Romania", and so, if hardly academic, may at least be presumed to be friendly toward Romania.


Or designed specifically to attract french-language tourists by emphasizing the francophile nature of Romania and the very close relation between French and Romanian. Why didnt you think about that possibility too?
Undoubtedly true, french and romanian have/had a close relationship, but maybe there's an exaggeration in that 38%...

QUOTE
That still leaves the statistics contained in those internet sources. If they are wrong, there is presumably another set of statistics that corrects them. So far nobody has supplied any apart from Imperialists's completely unsourced "80%" of Latin origin, which triggered this particular discussion in the first place. (In the interests of ballance, will you also be pressing him on this matter of HIS source?)


My source is Adrian Horodnic, "Istoria Romana. Compendiu pentru Bacalaureat si Admiterea la Facultate", pg.30:

QUOTE

Componenta lexicala:
-- lexicul latin: 80%
-- lexicul daco-moesic: 160-170 cuvinte
-- lexicul slav: 15-16%

  Lexicul slav reprezinta imprumuturi tarzii si izolate (cu o felxibilitate redusa).
[...]
  Limba romana este o limba romanica avand un superstrat slav (spre deosebire de italiana, spaniola, portugheza si franceza, care au ca superstrat elementul german). Ea este cea mai unitara limba romanica si cea mai apropiata de latina populara.


QUOTE
On the other hand, Imperialist thinks 20% is too low and wants to co-opt the unattributed 15% as Latin without any evidence. (In the intersts of fairness, will you also be pressing him on this?)


I dont want to co-opt anything.
It just seemed very interesting that the site mentions 63% of romanian lexicon of direct and indirect
latin origin, and 15% to unmentioned origin (other...). I also noticed that 63%+ missing 15% = 78%, very close to the 80% I mentioned in my initial post. Given my example with "imprejurare" - the fact that the latin origin is not explicitly mentioned in words that are made up of words of latin origin, I wonder if the 15% is not the result of faulty statistics casually discarded as "other sources" in order to cover that fault.



Posted by: Imperialist August 20, 2005 07:41 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 20 2005, 10:16 AM)


What you write about the limitations of internet sources is absolutely correct, as I have already said in an earlier post. However, mine are not quite as limited as you suggest. The "illustrious anonym" you mention would appear to be Dr. Cynthia L Hallen, who runs a lnguistics course at Brigham Young University.

Sid, the link you gave besides the travel site was this:

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html

The limitations of this link are obvious.

Mrs. Melodie Hanners gives as sole examples of re-latinisation in the 19th century the opinions of 2 or 3 writers.
It does not clarify the issue (if their efforts were sucessful) and it does not say a word about the role of the Academy in all that re-latinisation.

Moreover, by saying this:

QUOTE
Heliade’s movement began by selecting Italian words and eliminating contributions to the language from German, Russian and Greek.


it is clear she referrs to the Latinists. You denied ever referring to the Latinists, but this source does so. I thought you knew about that movement, as it appeared even though not explicitly (with the name Latinists) in your source.
This convinces me more, that the Re-latinisation efforts the source referrs to, are the efforts of the Latinists, which failed.

However, the source makes a mess of it when immediately after associating Heliade with the Latinist movement, she goes to quote from his 1828 book, a time when he was against that movement and wrote the book as a criticism of that movement.

So, why do you now change Re-latinisation to Romancisation? If by the latter you understand borrowing from related romance languages, it certainly is not what you claimed at the start of the thread -- the policy of eliminating slavic words and purifying the language.
For me it is obvious you are trying to morph your argument into something else.


Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 21, 2005 12:45 am
The easiest way to settle the french vs. latin issue would be the experiment I already said: one should go to ANY part of Romania and talk to a simple man first in Italian then same thing in French, tell me when did he understand you. Repeat experiment in different places around our country. I will tell you the result now: unless they learned french NONE of them will understand what you say when you use that language, when you will speak in italian most of them will understand a little of what you say. Now, the logical conclusion is: romanian language is very close to italian and quite different from french. I hope this will shad some light into the issue. Sid it must be hard for you to understand it, but unless you are a romanian you have to rely on what others wrote about it and a travel guide is not what we should call a reliable source. Besides, you should check romanian sources first and foreign sources second. Those who know best about this are the ones who speak the language.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 21, 2005 02:42 pm
Hi D13th Mytzu,

Talking to Romanians doesn't actually resolve the problem of the percentage origin of the vocabulary of the Romanian language today, for reasons I have already explained.

On the other hand, taking a representative sample of words from the DEX+S is much more likely to produce a more acurate % sample of the current Romanian language's vocabulary.

I have proposed to Imperialist that this might help resolve the question, but because it has over 1,000 pages he has refused. Have you a DEX+S? If so, would you be prepared to make a survey for us of the bottom right word of each page of the DEX+S in order to give us a rough idea of the origins of words in the current Romanian vocabulary?

I am prepared to do so, but it will take some months before I am in a positon to get access to a copy of the DEX+S.

I think you will agree that the DEX+S is about the best qualified Romanian source available on this subject, so you see, I have already tried to initiate the check of Romanian sources that you want.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 21, 2005 02:53 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 21 2005, 02:42 PM)

Talking to Romanians doesn't actually resolve the problem of the percentage origin of the vocabulary of the Romanian language today, for reasons I have already explained.

Of course not.You have to talk with English people.You did not explain a thing.Grow up.A read some books.Those things made from paper.They have some signs on their pages.We call them letters.Any combination of letters makes a word.Yes, is that simple.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 21, 2005 05:37 pm
QUOTE
Talking to Romanians doesn't actually resolve the problem of the percentage origin of the vocabulary of the Romanian language today, for reasons I have already explained.


It does prove something VERY important: romanian language is similar to italian and different from french. I hope at least you will agree to that.

Posted by: Imperialist August 21, 2005 08:06 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 20 2005, 11:33 AM)


As you may have noticed, I check Romanian words used on the thread in my Teora 2004 dictionary. "Boier" is, if I am not mistaken, a Slavic-derived word for nobleman. I then looked up "nobleman" in the English end of the dictionary. It didn't give "boier". Instead it gave "nobil", "gentilom" and "pair", the English equivalents of which are all of medieval French origin according to the Oxford English Dictionary. As you are keen on "good old fashioned questions", are any of these in the Lexiconul de la Buda? If not, when did they arrive in the Romanian language and why, given that there was already the functional word "boier". (In this connection, it is perfectly acceptable to reply that such research is beyond your immediate resources. We can't all know the answer to everything and I fully accept that.)


QUOTE
"Boier" is, if I am not mistaken, a Slavic-derived word for nobleman.


I think you are mistaken, because the meaning of "Boier" is "Mosier" according to DEX, not "Nobil".
Moreover, according to the Dictionary of Synonyms, the word "Boier" is not synonymous with "Nobil".

QUOTE
I then looked up "nobleman" in the English end of the dictionary.


Yes, unfortunately on a mistaken premise you looked for nobleman.

QUOTE
It didn't give "boier".


Rightly so. However, at this stage you should have wondered why did that happen, if according to your starting premise, the word boier is a slavic-derived word for... nobleman.

QUOTE
If not, when did they arrive in the Romanian language and why, given that there was already the functional word "boier".


Instead of doing more research to eliminate your own doubts about the
starting premise ("if I am not mistaken"), you concluded by including this new entry in this discussion, wondering why did nobleman replace the functional boier...

Sid, you can hereby understand once more why people (mostly me)
ask you about "agenda" or "goal". Because you are engaged in faulty half-scientific (semi-doct would be maybe the harsh? romanian word) proceedings and are adamant in continuing to do that despite our warnings about your info, sources, or logic. Let go....

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 21, 2005 09:38 pm
I think Boier is best translated as Landowner. It takes more to become a nobleman then owning land, that is probably why "boier" is not sinonim with "nobil". However I do not know the words origins.

Posted by: Dénes August 21, 2005 11:41 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 22 2005, 03:38 AM)
I think Boier is best translated as Landowner.

Wouldn't landowner be rather 'mosier'?
Historical English translation of 'boier' is 'boyar'.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 05:30 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 21 2005, 11:41 PM)
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 22 2005, 03:38 AM)
I think Boier is best translated as Landowner.

Wouldn't landowner be rather 'mosier'?
Historical English translation of 'boier' is 'boyar'.

Gen. Dénes

"Boyar" is used only to phonetically accomodate the Romanian word "Boier".

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 22, 2005 08:32 am
QUOTE
Wouldn't landowner be rather 'mosier'?


Denes as far as I know "mosier" is a new word compared to "boier" - I read Grigore Ureche's "Letopisetul .." and I only found the word "boier". Same thing for Miron Costin's "Letopisetul... ".

Edited: good thing I rememberd about "Letopisetul Tarii Moldovei", Sid this is for you - the latin origin of romanian language was being pointed out even in the 17th century by our historians, also: any romanian from these days can read the books written those days.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 10:48 am
Hi Imperialist,

It doesn't matter whether the motivations of the "Romanian community of Belgium and Luxemburg" were to attract francophone tourists or not. What matters is whether their proposition that 38% of Romanian vocabulary is of French derivation is accurate or not.

I have suggested two possible ways to help confirm or deny this figure - a sample word count of the DEX+S dictionary or a direct question as to sources put to the forum of the Romanian community of Belgium and Luxemburg. You have declined to attempt either. Maybe the 38% is an exaggeration, (I have already said that I was suprised myself to read this), but without any alternative figures on offer, or a willingness to search out its sources, or take one's own survey your instinctive scepticism must remain just that.

Thanks for your "80%" source.

Thank you also for explaining why you think the missing 15% might account for most of the gap between "63%" and "80%". I see some merit in it, but I would suggest that numerous other languages that have made less than 1.7% contributions to the Romanian vocabulary, such as Dacian and English, must also necessarily be included in this unaccounted "15%".

There are certainly limitations to the Brigham Young University source. However, they are not the limitations that Agarici incorrectly stated. Firstly, the author is not an "anonym". Secondly they are teaching a university course in a linguistics department and so must necessarily be qualified to do so. Thirdly, he was incorrect to state "for your info, all those guys are historians". In fact, of the five sources given (not 2 or 3 as you state) the first, Dennis Deletant, (who I have personally met in the distant past) is a professor of linguistics at University College London. Another is a distinguished French linguist with many papers to his name. A third, while certainly a historian, was also a member of the "Academia Romana" and so cannot be dismissed too lightly in this matter either. I couldn't trace the other two.

As you will see, both you ("2 or 3") and Agarici ("anonym", "all.... historians") have been factually inaccurate in reporting the Brigham Young University link.

I am not trying to morph the "argument" into something else. This discussion has grown organically as we question each other's propositions. As new information becomes available we all, hopefully, modify our positions. It would be wrong not to do so.

I suggested the term "Romancisation" for reasons already stated - that Re-Latinisation didn't sufficiently accurately reflect what actually happened. According to the Romanian community of Belgium and Luxemburg link, the adoption of new words into the modern Romanian language directly from Classical Latin was relatively uncommon - a couple of percent - compared with new words adopted from other Romance languages (mostly French) at about 40%. In doing so I am recognising that direct "Re-Latinisation" was much rarer than the adoption of new words indirectly from Latin via other Romance languages - hence "Romancisation".

I think you will agree that the Slavic portion of the Romanian vocabulary has (1) shrunk in proportionate terms in the last 200 years and that (2) this is likely to continue because according to one source already quoted, up to half the Slavic words in the Romanian vocabulary are already "archaic". The only question is whether this was entirely coincidental or whether differential decisions were made to favour the introduction of Romance loan words, some of which appear to have duplicated existing Slavic words?

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 11:10 am
P.S. As regards "boier".

The full entry read: "boier s.m. 1. ist. boyar; nobleman. 2. (dregator) court official. 3. (mosier) landowner. 4. fig. lord, master."

Some other words with the same root are:

"boieri l. vt. ennoble. II vr. to do the grand"

"boierie s.f. 1. dignity / title of a boyar; nobility. 2. fig. lordliness, grandness."

"boierime s.f. (landed) gentry, squirearchy."

the source is p.555 of the Teora Romanian-English, English-Romanian Dictionary (2004) by Andrei Bantas - described on p.501 as the "amplest" available so far.

(I believe the word "boyar" arrived in English because of the famous story about the Russian Czar Peter the Great cutting off the traditional beards of Russian boyars in order to symbolise the westernisation he demanded of the Russian aristocracy.)

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 11:15 am
Sid,let's be straight here.You said :

QUOTE
I suggested the term "Romancisation" for reasons already stated - that Re-Latinisation didn't sufficiently accurately reflect what actually happened.


I thought we all agreed that re-latinization failed.Moreover.This is a term which was also introduced by an obscure source.Well,I know the link,read what's in there.Nothing is historicaly backed up. Why do you insist in this "romancisation" ?

I will attempt to check this Romanian community in Belgium and Luxemburg to see what is all about.Counting DEX words will only lengthen the discussion although if I'd have some spare time I can attempt that.

Furthermore:

QUOTE
Thank you also for explaining why you think the missing 15% might account for most of the gap between "63%" and "80%". I see some merit in it, but I would suggest that numerous other languages that have made less than 1.7% contributions to the Romanian vocabulary, such as Dacian and English, must also necessarily be included in this unaccounted "15%".


he expressed an oppinion,you did the same. Both you have to prove it.Odds goes for Imperialist since he speaks Romanian fluently.You apparently don't.Sorry to say that. I am not saying that knowing perfectly a language makes you expert.But definitely helps.

So,for the third time:
QUOTE
I suggested the term "Romancisation" for reasons already stated - that Re-Latinisation didn't sufficiently accurately reflect what actually happened.


And how Romancization can be used here in place of Re-latinization? Why?We talk about language,not culture as a whole here.You are going past the subject of conversation.And even if we go in the direction you pointed you are again wrong.Simply because there was no flashback to the Roman culture except,yes,you guessed , Latin language.Please note the word "flashback" , I am not using something else to suggest such action (re-latinization).

As for the Slavic portion of the ROmanian language,I am totally surprised that you didn't mentioned the period after 1945 when "Slavicisation" happened to the Romanian language.One of its exponents is main author of the today's DEX (A. Graur). Thus, if we rejected the slavic expresions (or supposing they fell into oblivion) why would be keeping the Latin ones?Maybe because Romanian is Latin at origins?You see,is an endless circle you started and every time we go back from where we started.Is like ok,let's make another round,maybe some other things will show up.

Finally:
QUOTE
The only question is whether this was entirely coincidental or whether differential decisions were made to favour the introduction of Romance loan words, some of which appear to have duplicated existing Slavic words?


Don't you find it quite suspect that Latin origin words were favoured to some other ones?Seriously.We already agreed that:
1)Relatinization failed
2)Scholars could not spread such ideas in a rural Romaina without a huge logistic effort.This I rule out right now.

Thus...

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 11:31 am
QUOTE
In fact, of the five sources given (not 2 or 3 as you state) the first, Dennis Deletant, (who I have personally met in the distant past) is a professor of linguistics at University College London. Another is a distinguished French linguist with many papers to his name. A third, while certainly a historian, was also a member of the "Academia Romana" and so cannot be dismissed too lightly in this matter either. I couldn't trace the other two.


QUOTE
As you will see, both you ("2 or 3") and Agarici ("anonym", "all.... historians") have been factually inaccurate in reporting the Brigham Young University link.


I was talking exclusively about the Re-latinisation part of that course. Deletant is not a source in that part. Sources are Heliade Radulescu and another romanian writer, both quoted randomly and without sufficient clarification of the issue. I am not questioning the University or the teacher who wrote this introductory course, but the course itself being brought as a source in the discussion, when obviously its limited and most likely a simple introduction.

QUOTE
Thank you also for explaining why you think the missing 15% might account for most of the gap between "63%" and "80%". I see some merit in it, but I would suggest that numerous other languages that have made less than 1.7% contributions to the Romanian vocabulary, such as Dacian and English, must also necessarily be included in this unaccounted "15%".


Whatever the case, that site is no longer a valid source in this discussion,and I dont see why you hang on it so hard.
There are 2 options:
-- the 15% are actually latin origin and by not adding them to the 63% but to "others" the site made an error or lacked further info to attribute them correctly
-- by limiting the latin origin (direct or indirect) words only to 63% the site is in complete contradiction with my source which mentions 80%

Either of the options puts a stain on the validity of the source in this discussion.
And because of that I am not going to do:

QUOTE
a sample word count of the DEX+S dictionary


You may not realise, but for that sample to be representative a huge amount of work has to be done. Its not just about counting the bottom right words or what you said.
I am not going to be engaged in such an enterprise to disprove a percentage from a site already with errors or dubious statistics.

take care


Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 11:55 am
To clear up the things.Here started everything :

CODE

Voici la composition actuelle du vocabulaire roumain, selon l'origine des mots : 20% de mots hérités du latin ( proportion similaire dans toutes les autres langues néo-latines), 38,4% au français, 14% d'emprunts aux langues slaves (ancien slavon, le bulgare, le serbo-croate, le russe, l'ukrainien), 3,7% au turc, 2,4% au grec, 2,3% à l'allemand, 2,4% au latin classique 1,7% à l'italien et autres influences moins importantes. Donc 63% de mots venus directement ou indirectement du latin.


Let's see : 20 + 38,4 + 2,4 + 1,7 = 62,5% this is the first flaw. For someone giving such precise percentages 62,5 could not be equal with 63.

Furthermore 14 + 3,7 + 2,4 + 2,3 = 22,4 . 62,5 + 22,4 = 84,9 % which leaves 15,1% . They are from?

Sid,this is your source.I write this post now just for everyone to judge what you cite as sources.

On the other issue,this community from Brussels is quite difficult to be found as nothing reliable can be used as address.Moreover , the forum is disabled for a while. If you have any information I can gladly use it. I live 2 hrs drive from Brussels and I work at least 3 months/year in Brussels. I'd be more than happy to discuss these with Romanian community there.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 11:56 am
Hi Zayets,

Please read again my earlier posts for why I suggested "Romancisation" as a better alternative to "Re-Latinisation". If you disagree with the logic, please explain why.

Please do follow up the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg link. I have already suggested that Imperialist contact them, but if he won't I am perfectly happy for you, or anyone else, to do so.

Counting the origins of the bottom right hand words of the DEX+S (something over a thousand) would take up rather less time than some of us have already spent on this thread. What is more, I will do it as soon as I can get access to a DEX+S, but this may be several months away. (Am I the ONLY one prepared to make this effort? Come on guys. It is your language and some of you already have the DEX+S available).

One's native language is irrelevant to this discussion as both Imperialist and I are using secondary sources. Secondly, the figures from the "Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg" link are more detailed than those of Imperialist's and, as he has himself pointed out, there need not necessarily be a significant difference between our figures. Mine might just be a breakdown of his, but stripped of the "Latin" umbrella.

Actually, I HAVE touched on the "Slavicisation" of the Romanian language attempted after 1945. Not only has the reintroduction of Cyrillc in the Moldovan SSR been mentioned, but I also raised the subject of the orthographic change that resulted in "Romania" being spelt "Rominia" in the late 1950s and and/or early 1960s and then reversed.

I would suggest that there was exactly the sort of massive logistical effort spreading ideas throughout Romania that you "rule out right now". It was called the introduction of mass literacy through the establishment of primary and secondary education in the Romanian language across the whole of Romania. The language of instruction was that approved by the Academia Romana. The campaign for full literacy lasted about 100 years and was backed by the authority of the state.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 22, 2005 11:59 am
FACTS:

1. Simple romanians from rural areas (those who did not learn english or italian in school) will udnerstand some italian but WILL NOT understandfrench => romanian language is similar to italian and different from french.

2. Romanian historians pointed out to our latin roots both as people and language at least from 17th century (if you read Grigore Ureche or Miron Costin you will actually find sources mentioned by them who said that even earlier).

3. Romanian language from 17th century is quite similar to todays language (with the "arhaismele de rigoare")


Will you at least agree to those facts or will you be as stuborned as ever Sid ?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 12:00 pm
P.S.

Imperialist has already raised the question of the missing 15% and both he and I have already suggested possible solutions. Please read our back posts.

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 12:09 pm
QUOTE
Counting the origins of the bottom right hand words of the DEX+S (something over a thousand) would take up rather less time than some of us have already spent on this thread. What is more, I will do it as soon as I can get access to a DEX+S, but  this may be several months away. (Am I the ONLY one prepared to make this effort? Come on guys. It is your language and some of you already have the DEX+S available).


You need a scientific methodology for that to have scientific relevancy.
But if you want to do it and reach a result, please do and let us know what that result is.

QUOTE
Secondly, the figures from the "Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg" link are more detailed than those of Imperialist's and, as he has himself pointed out, there need not necessarily be a significant difference between our figures. Mine might just be a breakdown of his, but stripped of the "Latin" umbrella.


If I have to choose between more detailed but inexact and less detailed but exact, I'd choose the latter.
The words of direct and indirect latin origin are 80% of lexicon. The site mentions only 63%.



Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 12:09 pm
QUOTE
Actually, I HAVE touched on the "Slavicisation" of the Romanian language attempted after 1945. Not only has the reintroduction of Cyrillc in the Moldovan SSR been mentioned, but I also raised the subject of the orthographic change that resulted in "Romania" being spelt "Rominia" in the late 1950s and and/or early 1960s and then reversed.


No,not touching.That was already discussed.Don't SHIFT the discussion ONCE AGAIN.My question was totaly different. Here it is,a short recap for you : "Thus, if we rejected the slavic expresions (or supposing they fell into oblivion) why would be keeping the Latin ones?" Please stick to discussion.From now one I will accept no other shifting if you really want to continue this (useless) discussion.

QUOTE
One's native language is irrelevant to this discussion as both Imperialist and I are using secondary sources.


It is relevant, my friend.Not highly but it is relevant.How would you know (read feel) that a word has a certain origin?Or how would you understand (read feel) a certain expression?

QUOTE
I would suggest that there was exactly the sort of massive logistical effort spreading ideas throughout Romania that you "rule out right now". It was called the introduction of mass literacy through the establishment of primary and secondary education in the Romanian language across the whole of Romania. The language of instruction was that approved by the Academia Romana. The campaign for full literacy lasted about 100 years and was backed by the authority of the state.


You see?You suggested,now prove it because what the sources you have quoted didn't made such assumptions.They merely suggest a certain course of action.Wether this was put into action or not,I guess we already agreed now.If it failed,then why bring it (again) into discussion?Is pretty hard to enforce something when there are few Romanian schools across the country.And ,if you bothered to read some books, you'd find that the overhelming majority of the Romanians could not afford at that time to even follow the primary classes.Yep,logistics again.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 12:15 pm
Hi D13th Mytzu,

sorry to be slow to get back to you. I am having to juggle three or four conversations and sometimes I will necessarily be slow in replying.

I don't actually think that you and I have any significant points of disagreement.

1) I see absolutely no reason to disagree with your proposition that Romanians from rural areas will find it easier to understand Italian than French. I would guess that this may well always have been so for the last 1,900 years because Latin originally came to Romania from Italia, not Gallia.

2) I see no reason to doubt that 17th century historians recognised the Latin roots of Romanian. I don't know of anyone reputable who thinks otherwise than that the core Romanian language is Latin based, as I have already said several times.

3) I see no reason to doubt that today's Romanians can by and large understand the Romanian of the 17th Century. However, given the large number of mostly Romance words introduced into the Romanian language since the 17th Century and the adoption of the Bucharest region dialect/grai as its basis, I would suggest that a typical 17th Century Romanian would probably have far more difficulty understanding modern Romanian. The same is certainly true of English and I would imagine most, perhaps all, other languages.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 22, 2005 12:20 pm
Thank you for the stright answers Sid, however I do have one question: what is the " Bucharest region dialect/grai" ? I (and probably others) are totally unfamiliar with this.

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 12:22 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 12:15 PM)


3) I see no reason to doubt that today's Romanians can by and large understand the Romanian of the 17th Century. However, given the large number of mostly Romance words introduced into the Romanian language since the 17th Century and the adoption of the Bucharest region dialect/grai as its basis, I would suggest that a typical 17th Century Romanian would probably have far more difficulty understanding modern Romanian. The same is certainly true of English and I would imagine most, perhaps all, other languages.


There was never a deliberate effort to introduce the Bucharest "grai"/dialect.
Because probably what you call Bucharest grai/dialect
was nothing but the literary language agreed upon by writers and linguists of the times.
Moreover, today there is no such thing as a Bucharest grai/dialect. Do you have a London dialect in Britain?

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 12:23 pm
QUOTE
However, given the large number of mostly Romance words introduced into the Romanian language since the 17th Century and the adoption of the Bucharest region dialect/grai as its basis, I would suggest that a typical 17th Century Romanian would probably have far more difficulty understanding modern Romanian.


I really think you had a major sun stroke. They said on the news : it was very hot this summer.

So Mytzu,when we met in Bucharest in July which grai/dialect you spoked to me?Because you see? I am from Transylvania and you from Bucharest. Next time please tell me to come with the dictionary with me because I might find very difficult to understand you!

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 12:25 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Aug 22 2005, 12:22 PM)
Moreover, today there is no such thing as a Bucharest grai/dialect. Do you have a London dialect in Britain?

Of course they do!Is called Soho.At least that's what I learned from various web sites mantained by Comunitatea Romana din Marea Britanie wink.gif

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 12:32 pm
Hi Imperialist,

So, I really am the only one of us really interested in pursuing the facts! No problem. As I have said already, I will do a word count by origin from the DEX+S when I am next in the British library.

Taking a random sample, such as every "umpteenth" word or the word at the bottom/top left/right will satisfy the requirement of a sound methodology. That is why I suggested it. In order to increase further the random nature of the test,
I will let you choose. Top or bottom, left or right?

What makes you think "80%" is "exact"? It would be statistically extremely remarkable if the Latin vocabulary of Romanian is exactly "80%", don't you think? In fact, the Romanian Community on Belgium and Luxemburg figures are both more detailed AND more exact than yours. Their figures use decimal points. Yours do not. Your figures leave 20% unexplained, theirs apparently leave 15.1%. By you logic you should prefer the figures offered by the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 12:37 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 12:32 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

So, I really am the only one of us really interested in pursuing the facts! No problem. As I have said already, I will do a word count by origin from the DEX+S when I am next in the British library.

Taking a random sample, such as every "umpteenth" word or the word at the bottom/top left/right will satisfy the requirement of a sound methodology. That is why I suggested it. In order to increase further the random nature of the test,
I will let you choose. Top or bottom, left or right?

What makes you think "80%" is "exact"? It would be statistically extremely remarkable if the Latin vocabulary of Romanian is exactly "80%", don't you think? In fact, the Romanian Community on Belgium and Luxemburg figures are both more detailed AND more exact than yours. Their figures use decimal points. Yours do not. Your figures leave 20% unexplained, theirs apparently leave 15.1%. By you logic you should prefer the figures offered by the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid,you start counting and then come back.OK?Be a good boy and start investigating.

Oh,one more thing, what facts you were interested? If anyone has any other doubts then these should be answered by now.Your source is a travel tourist info site (not even mantained anymore) and that's the bottom line.

Good luck in counting the words.And don't forget to submit your work to the Academy.They need briliant minds like air.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 12:51 pm
Hi D13th Mytzu,

The origin of the Romanian language today in the Bucharest region is mentioned in the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica I quoted somewhat earlier. I will dig out the exact quote for you.

It is possible that if the Bucharest region dialect/grai was the root of the modern national language, it would now be indistinguishable because it would be in daily use by all educated Romanians. As Bucharest became the national capital, it would not be impossible that it provided the roots of the literary language Imperialist just mentioned.

In Britain we have "RP" - Received Pronounciation (much the same as "BBC English" or "Queens English") - which is used by the upper-middle and upper classes across the whole country. It originated amongst educated people in the Home Counties around London and spread via the universities and Public Schools they sent their children to.

Cheers,

Sid.




Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 12:55 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Thank you for your endorsement.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. If you have any preference in the top/bottom, left/right debate, let me know. In the absence of an expressed preference I will choose bottom/right.


Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 12:55 pm
According to this site Romanian is DIRECTLY descendant from Latin.

http://turismro.tripod.com/ghid/istorie.html

Oh,did I forgot to mention that this site is a touristic one.Now you've been warned.

And for some fun a la Sid , here's another one.Actually I believe that Sid will start investigating this one thorougly :

http://www.geocities.com/dacgerula/files/limba_romana.htm

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 12:59 pm
QUOTE
What makes you think "80%" is "exact"? It would be statistically extremely remarkable if the Latin vocabulary of Romanian is exactly "80%", don't you think? In fact, the Romanian Community on Belgium and Luxemburg figures are both more detailed AND more exact than yours. Their figures use decimal points. Yours do not. Your figures leave 20% unexplained, theirs apparently leave 15.1%. By you logic you should prefer the figures offered by the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg.


My source gives 80% for latin origin, and 15-16% for slavic origin. That leaves 4-5% for "others". Compare that to your huge 15% "others" and your way off 63% latin origin. If my source has a possible error of +/- 5% (lets say) for that 80% latin origin, yours must have a 80%-63% error.

Also I find it distressing that you now contest the authority of my source (previously you thought I had no source at all, I guess that would have made your efforts far more easier), while continuing to uphold the authority of your travel site! Unbelievable!


take care

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 01:00 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Aug 22 2005, 12:59 PM)
[...] while continuing to uphold the authority of your travel site! Unbelievable!

Ditto!

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 22, 2005 01:02 pm
QUOTE
The origin of the Romanian language today in the Bucharest region is mentioned in the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica I quoted somewhat earlier. I will dig out the exact quote for you.

It is possible that if the Bucharest region dialect/grai was the root of the modern national language, it would now be indistinguishable because it would be in daily use by all educated Romanians. As Bucharest became the national capital, it would not be impossible that it provided the roots of the literary language Imperialist just mentioned.


Sid, I am afraid there is no "Bucharest dialect/grai" as you udnerstand it, the Bucharest problem is a little more complex considering that during comunism many people from rural areas were brought to the capital. Even more about this matter: during University (which lasted 5 years) most of my colegues (70% or more) were not from Bucharest but from allover the country, all of us spoke the same "grai" smile.gif it is true that some had different accents depending on the region they came from, but we all spoke SAME language, same words, same grammar.
What you could say is that in Bucharest we speak with a "muntean" accent but that's about it.


Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 01:09 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 22 2005, 01:02 PM)
BTW: have you seen the movie "Snatch" ?

Of course I did. It had the same impression on me as it had Braveheart.A Scott played by an Aussie in a Holywood picture as far as it goes for accuraccy.Neverthless,big bang for the buck.But that's Holywood.Funny speach a la con (pardon my French).But that's it.Or that one was a "grai" and I failed to understand the whole image.
But this is off topic.Mods feel free to mod my comment down if necessary.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 01:19 pm
Hi D-13th Mytzu,

I am not saying that there necessarily IS a Bucharest dialect/grai today. I am suggesting that there WAS a Bucharest regional one from which the current national Romanian language emerged. I will produce a quote that supports this, as promised.

If this is true, this might well explain why a Bucharest regional accent is not detectable today.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 01:26 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 01:19 PM)
I am suggesting that there WAS a Bucharest regional one from which the current national Romanian language emerged.

I am totaly speechless.

QUOTE
I will produce a quote that supports this, as promised.


You'd better do that.And faster.

Posted by: dragos August 22, 2005 01:26 pm
Cool down.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 22, 2005 01:39 pm
Zayets, "graba strica treaba" smile.gif sorry admins - but translating it into english loses all flavour.

Sid, I am also curious of what you may find, for I never heard that there was a Bucharest dialect. Also, please keep in mind that Bucharest was not the only town with great cultural influence in the last 200 years, actually there was more activity in Moldova during the 19th century (this conclusion is based on what I read from "Istoria Romanilor Vol. VII" issued by Academia Romana).

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 01:42 pm
I have no problem in waiting as long as the wait takes a reasonable amount of time.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 02:05 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Yes. I checked your original posts. Your source did offer the figures you produced. However, it did so in round figures or generalisations and offers only three origins - Latin, Slavic and Other. By contrast the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg source offers a breakdown of the "Latin" figure and several other specific languages, besides the 15% unaccounted for.

Look back carefully. I never even asked you for your source. You belatedly offered it when I took Agarici to task for employing double standards in only pursuing my sources and not yours. You then rushed to provide it in order to cover your back. Please check.

I was extremely easy going about your failure to give a source by not pressing you on it once. Please don't distort the truth by suggesting that I thought you had no source at all. All I did was point out to a third party that you hadn't offered one. This was absolutely true. You hadn't. Please check.

We have thus come back to two of my perennial complaints: (1) Your tardiness in providing sources and (2) misrepresentation of what I have posted.

Your complaints about the agreed limitations of the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg link ring rather hollow, when you have a much more authoritative source in your own hands - the DEX+S - but refuse to undertake any systematic analysis of it. This I will happily do.

Do you yet have a top/bottom, left/right preference?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 02:09 pm
Hi Zayets,

As I have said before, it may be several months before I can get to a copy of the DEX+S. If this is too long, please reproach Imperialist, who apparently has a copy available now, and not me.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 02:13 pm
P.S.: Back tomorrow.

Sid

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 02:27 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 02:09 PM)
Hi Zayets,

As I have said before, it may be several months before I can get to a copy of the DEX+S. If this is too long, please reproach Imperialist, who apparently has a copy available now, and not me.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid, this is a nice way to
get away from this thread, but its totally childish what you propose, the "random count". Thats why I dont even bother to do such an absurdity. What is your methodology, what are your variables, error ranges etc.?
Can you comprehend that out of 100 words you randomly count maybe 5% will be of indirect latin origin from french? How will you project that random result on the whole lexicon of the Romanian language????
I can only wish you good luck in your endeavour, as it will probably last years in order to be peer-reviewable and scientifically decent.
I for one preferr the works of romanian linguists.

take care

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 02:29 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 02:05 PM)


Your complaints about the agreed limitations of the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg link ring rather hollow, when you have a much more authoritative source in your own hands - the DEX+S - but refuse to undertake any systematic analysis of it. This I will happily do.


Yes, you do that systematic analysis if you so please but then when posting the findings of your research please provide the methodology too, so we form an idea of your methods.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 22, 2005 02:49 pm
Hi Imperialist,

I am glad I popped back.

I think it is best if we agree the methodology in advance, don't you?

I have already explained my proposed methodology two or three times and offered to let you play a role. I give it here in more detail:

I propose that I take a representative sample of words from the 1998 DEX+S chosen at random. Any objections?

I propose to take this representative sample by selecting one word from each page of the DEX+S 1998 edition. Any objections?

I further propose to guarantee the randomness of this selection by taking the words in question from exactly the same place on each page on the grounds that origin cannot in any way govern their position on that page because they are positioned alphabetically. Any objections?

I further propose that I take either the top/left, top/right, bottom/left or bottom/right word and that you select which in order to further guarantee that I cannot slant the selection. Any objections?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 03:12 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 02:49 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

I am glad I popped back.

I think it is best if we agree the methodology in advance, don't you?

I have already explained my proposed methodology two or three times and offered to let you play a role. I give it here in more detail:

I propose that I take a representative sample of words from the 1998 DEX+S chosen at random. Any objections?

I propose to take this representative sample by selecting one word from each page of the DEX+S 1998 edition. Any objections?

I further propose to guarantee the randomness of this selection by taking the words in question from exactly the same place on each page on the grounds that origin cannot in any way govern their position on that page because they are positioned alphabetically. Any objections?

I further propose that I take either the top/left, top/right, bottom/left or bottom/right word and that you select which in order to further guarantee that I cannot slant the selection. Any objections?

Cheers,

Sid.

The question was not about you slanting anything, but about the scientific relevancy of a random count of words from the DEX.
I've read your "methodology". What you have presented was the methodology of the count, but not of the research. This methodology will be useful in understanding the dynamics of your random count, but you will need a more thorough methodology in order to scientifically project your findings on the total composition of the romanian lexicon.
I wish you goodluck, and await the results.
It will also be useful to know the total number of pages that you will thus cover.
I'm curious what conclusions you will reach.

take care

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 03:30 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 22 2005, 02:09 PM)
Hi Zayets,

As I have said before, it may be several months before I can get to a copy of the DEX+S. If this is too long, please reproach Imperialist, who apparently has a copy available now, and not me.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid,I have also the DEX (not the newest though) with me but simply I don't have the time to count every word and note down their origins.This is the only thing you have left now and you're also not so keen in undertaking this. Several months is quite some time and then some other several months and so on.
I wish you best of luck, but before you leave (if that's your intention) then I have to agree with Imperialist.Sorry to say that,all you did is just making ... well , you just embarassed yourself.
Take care

Posted by: Imperialist August 22, 2005 03:44 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 22 2005, 03:30 PM)

Sid,I have also the DEX (not the newest though) with me but simply I don't have the time to count every word and note down their origins.

Zayets, Sid will not count all the words, but randomly.
I wonder what results he will find and the way he will project those results. Because my DEX page is split in 2 columns, each with ~ 10-20 words. Thats ~ 20-40 words for page. He will take 1 word out of those 20-40, and combining the results from several pages, will try to project the result for the rest 19-39 words/page.
I'm not sure either that he really wants to do this.
But at least he'll get a copy of DEX and he'll be better prepared to discuss things here.

take care

Posted by: Zayets August 22, 2005 04:32 pm
Then it must be a very significant number to make at least half sense.
Neverthless,good luck Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 10:47 am
Hi Guys,

Fortunately I only have to account for the methodology of the count, to which no objections have been offered, and not for the methodology used to compose the DEX.

As the opinion polls in this country usually sample just over 1,000 people out of an electorate of 30 million, I think that if I take one word from each page of the DEX as prescribed above (also apparently just over 1,000), this will be statistically significant because there are nothing like 30 million, or even 3 million words in the DEX.

All objections having been met, I will therefore proceed as described above.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 11:01 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 10:47 AM)

Fortunately I only have to account for the methodology of the count, to which no objections have been offered, and not for the methodology used to compose the DEX.

Well, go ahead then. The results you will give will be representative for "Sid's random sample of the DEX". I doubt they will tell us anything of relevance in the 38%-15%-63%-80% issue at hand.


Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 11:21 am
Nah,if he chooses carefully he can end with 95% Slavic origin words.Then he can publish his thesis.I wouldn't miss that show either.
Go ahead Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 11:27 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 10:47 AM)


As the opinion polls in this country usually sample just over 1,000 people out of an electorate of 30 million, I think that if I take one word from each page of the DEX as prescribed above (also apparently just over 1,000), this will be statistically significant because there are nothing like 30 million, or even 3 million words in the DEX.


No, your comparison is not accurate.
You want to count a population (in this case of words), not to gauge opinions on a certain event or the choice between A or B in the next elections.

What you propose to do (randomly counting 1 word/page to reach a scientific result for the total make-up of romanian lexicon -- is this it?) is like doing a population count (recensamant) by randomly picking 1 apartment block/street then projecting the result of that count to the whole city. If you have 30% black and 70% white in your random count sample, you cannot reach the conclusion that the city has a racial composition of 30%-70%. You would actually have to go at each and every apartment block for that conclusion to have scientific value.
The same with words.

I write this only to save you your work and save further arguments when you come back with the results of your count only for me to dismiss it as irrelevant for the general composition of romanian lexicon, and only valuable for your random sample. Then you'd be pretty upset given the work you did, and you'd start blaming me that I didnt do it myself etc. etc. etc.

take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 12:29 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Oh yes you can! The statistical rationale is exactly the same, with the proviso that a word count will probably be more accurate than an opinion poll because words can't change their opinions overnight!

Agreed! Each page is the equivalent of an apartment block. I will therefore be doing exactly as you suggest and visiting every apartment block.

Any other objections of a more substantial nature?

Actually, I already do blame you for not doing this work yourself. Personally I think it disgraceful that a Romanian in possession of a DEX not only won't do it himself, but is actively discouraging others from doing it. From an outsider's point of view it looks very, very bad. I doubt some Romanians are too impressed either!

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 12:46 pm
Sid,why don't you go counting your words?

Besides,what are you doing here is not a poll is a count.But I guess you can't make the difference.Imperialist couldn't be more clearer.You are not looking to see what Joe Doe likes to drink.You are looking to see how many Joe Doe are in the apartment block.
Is that simple.

Personally I find it disgraceful that someone coming here presenting some obscure sources wanted US to demonstrate that your sources are wrong.In fact you did nothing to prove yours,why should we accept it?

Posted by: dragos August 23, 2005 01:03 pm
http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=latinism&source=

LATINÍSM, (1) latinisme, s.n. 1. Cuvânt, formă sau construcţie sintactică împrumutate (fără necesitate) din limba latină (şi neasimilate încă în limba care a făcut împrumutul). 2. Curent apărut în lingvistica şi în filologia românească din sec. XIX, care, pentru a demonstra caracterul latin al limbii române, a încercat să elimine din ea cuvintele de alte origini şi să modifice astfel forma celor latine, încât să le apropie cât mai mult de forma originară; a contribuit la generalizarea scrierii cu caractere latine şi a adus noi argumente în sprijinul originii latine a limbii române. – Din fr. latinisme. Cf. 1 a t i n.

Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 01:11 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 23 2005, 01:03 PM)
a încercat să elimine din ea cuvintele de alte origini şi să modifice astfel forma celor latine, încât să le apropie cât mai mult de forma originară;

Thus they were Latin at origins anyway? Or what?I don't quite understand.Modify the EXISTING LATIN WORDS in order to make them CLOSER TO THEIR ORIGINAL FORM ?

Posted by: dragos August 23, 2005 01:16 pm
Here is the definition of latinism from my Dictionar enciclopedic vol IV - 2001

2. Curent in lingvistica si filologia romana din sec. 19 care a continuat unele idei ale Scolii Ardelene, aducand noi argumente in sprijinul originii latine a limbii romane; a contribuit la generalizarea scrierii cu caractere latine. Pentru a demonstra caracterul latin al limbii romane si din dorinta de "a restabili puritatea ei intergrala", a ajuns la exagerari ca: inlocuirea cuvintelor nelatine, modificarea formei cuvintelor latinesti mostenite din latina potrivit unei ortografii latinizante. Reprezentanti: T. Cipariu, A.T. Laurian, I.C. Massim s.a.

Translation:
Current in the Romanian linguistics and philology of the 19th century which continued some ideas of the Transylvanian School, bringing new arguments for the latin origin of the Romanian language; it contributed to the full implementation of writting in latin characters. In order to demonstrate the latin character of Romanian language, and from the desire "to reestablish its intergral purity", it got to exagerations like: replacing the non-latin words, modification of the morphology of the words of latin origin according to a latinizant ortography. Representants: T. Cipariu, A.T. Laurian, I.C. Massim etc

Posted by: dragos August 23, 2005 01:23 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 23 2005, 04:11 PM)
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 23 2005, 01:03 PM)
a încercat să elimine din ea cuvintele de alte origini şi să modifice astfel forma celor latine, încât să le apropie cât mai mult de forma originară;

Thus they were Latin at origins anyway? Or what?I don't quite understand.Modify the EXISTING LATIN WORDS in order to make them CLOSER TO THEIR ORIGINAL FORM ?

It seems that there was indeed a deliberate effort to make the vocabulary look more latin that it appeared. It doesnt say that part of the vocabulary was not latin at origins.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 01:31 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 23 2005, 01:16 PM)
a ajuns la exagerari ca: inlocuirea cuvintelor nelatine, modificarea formei cuvintelor latinesti mostenite din latina potrivit unei ortografii latinizante.

Reprezentanti: T. Cipariu

Yes, thats the ethymological principle in orthography I was talking about earlier in the thread.

Titu Maiorescu wrote a scathing article against that Latinist school, "Cercetari Limbistice si Critica Sistemului Etimologic".

So that it will be clear that the Latinists did not succeed in doing the changes they intended, I shall quote from Titu Maiorescu, giving an example of mr. Cipariu's latinist changes he proposed:

QUOTE

"Si astfel d. Cipariu scrie:

mesa  - in loc de - masa
vera   - " - vara
feta    - " - fata
fia      - " - fie
chiamu - " - chem
bene  - " -  bine
volia  - " - voie
[QUOTE]

I also gave other examples earlier in the thread (zboara - svola etc.)

Any speaker of romanian language will instantly realise that the Latinists did not manage to impose these changes.

Posted by: Agarici August 23, 2005 01:53 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 23 2005, 01:16 PM)
Here is the definition of latinism from my Dictionar enciclopedic vol IV - 2001

2. Curent in lingvistica si filologia romana din sec. 19 care a continuat unele idei ale Scolii Ardelene, aducand noi argumente in sprijinul originii latine a limbii romane; a contribuit la generalizarea scrierii cu caractere latine. Pentru a demonstra caracterul latin al limbii romane si din dorinta de "a restabili puritatea ei intergrala", a ajuns la exagerari ca: inlocuirea cuvintelor nelatine, modificarea formei cuvintelor latinesti mostenite din latina potrivit unei ortografii latinizante. Reprezentanti: T. Cipariu, A.T. Laurian, I.C. Massim s.a.

Translation:
Current in the Romanian linguistics and philology of the 19th century which continued some ideas of the Transylvanian School, bringing new arguments for the latin origin of the Romanian language; it contributed to the full implementation of writting in latin characters. In order to demonstrate the latin character of Romanian language, and from the desire "to reestablish its intergral purity", it got to exagerations like: replacing the non-latin words, modification of the morphology of the words of latin origin according to a latinizant ortography. Representants:  T. Cipariu, A.T. Laurian, I.C. Massim etc


The things were more complex than that; and in the end the Latinists didn’t have the last word to say on the matter. See my earlier post on that here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2382&st=105

Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 02:04 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Aug 23 2005, 01:31 PM)
Any speaker of romanian language will instantly realise that the Latinists did not manage to impose these changes.

And how would you explain this to Sid? He thinks that having no clues about a certain language is not a show stoper in understanding it (the whloe idea.I won't go back to the post he said that.I'm too lazy today).

Besides,doing what Cipariu said we would basically speak Italian today.Not French btw.Funny enough,as Myztu said,a person from anywhere in Romania would understand nowaday much more easy Italian than French.French has to be cultivated to the masses smile.gif
Is not an easy language.Obviously,it helps a bit if your langauge has Latin roots.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 03:00 pm
Hi Zayets,

Indeed, you don't have to accept anything from my limited sources.

On the other hand you haven't put up anything as detailed against them. Indeed, you haven't actually put up any statistics at all!

My solution is to go the DEX and do a random word-origin count. Then neither of us will have to accept my limited sources because we will have gone to a source that presumably even Imperialist approves of.

To your credit, at least you are encouraging me to proceed with this word-origin count. The only person still throwing spurious obstacles in my way, is Imperialist.

Do you know why Imperialist is being so obstructive? After all, it is not as if I am likely to make any great new discovery about the origins of the Romanian language by using the DEX, is it?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 03:21 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 03:00 PM)
On the other hand you haven't put up anything as detailed against them. Indeed, you haven't actually put up any statistics at all!

I don't have too. I just pointed out that your (or your source if you please) arithmetic is wrong. There are 15% not accounted. Which make your source doubtful.Besides,I have pointed out a link where the same percentage is given as French & Italian. You look back in the thread.

In fact Sid I am more cynical here. At least Imperialist tries to warn you that when you'd be finishing counting your conclusion will be wrong.And he will be right,you know.I explained you why,but you go ahead.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 03:22 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 03:00 PM)


My solution is to go the DEX and do a random word-origin count. Then neither of us will have to accept my limited sources because we will have gone to a source that presumably even Imperialist approves of.

To your credit, at least you are encouraging me to proceed with this word-origin count. The only person still throwing spurious obstacles in my way, is Imperialist.

Do you know why Imperialist is being so obstructive? After all, it is not as if I am likely to make any great new discovery about the origins of the Romanian language by using the DEX, is it?


Sid, you are only making more talk around your future plan of analysing the DEX.
I have nothing against you randomly counting words, I just want you to know I will demand a very scientific methodology from you if you want to project the result of your random sample to the totality of the romanian lexicon.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 04:20 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 12:29 PM)

Oh yes you can! The statistical rationale is exactly the same, with the proviso that a word count will probably be more accurate than an opinion poll because words can't change their opinions overnight!


I just realised to what your "oh yes you can!" replied.

It was to my statement:

QUOTE

If you have 30% black and 70% white in your random count sample, you cannot reach the conclusion that the city has a racial composition of 30%-70%. You would actually have to go at each and every apartment block for that conclusion to have scientific value.


Wow, Sid! You say "yes, you can!". ohmy.gif blink.gif
OMG, I dont want to think about the erroneous conclusions you will reach after your random count, if you start off with that premise....

edit -- and mind you that the 30%-70% ration/aprtment block is reached by checking each and every person living there, not just randomly

Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 05:15 pm
Hi Imperialist and Zayets,

You have been offered ample opportunity to:

1) Yourselves make the sample word count, for which you are both better equipped than I am by virtue of both already possessing the DEX.

or

2) Contribute in advance to the methodology to be employed by me in assembling that sample.

If you do neither, you will have surrendered all right to criticise any result by virtue of being contributory to any failings.

As it is likely to be a couple of months at least before I get access to a DEX myself, you have plenty of time to make a positive contribution and I look forward to it.

Cheers,

Sid.








Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 05:27 pm
QUOTE
You have been offered ample opportunity to:

1) Yourselves make the sample word count, for which you are both better equipped than I am by virtue of both already possessing the DEX.


Life is full of opportunities arranged by prioritising. For me at least starting to randomly count the words in the DEX is not on the list of priorities for now and not in the foreseeable future.

QUOTE
If you do neither, you will have surrendered all right to criticise any result by virtue of being contributory to any failings.


Allow me to laugh.gif . Like I said, you do it scientifical or better not do it at all. Because we will criticise any generalisations you do based on a random count. Just imagine that 75% of the words in your random count (lets say out of 1000) are of french origin. Should we accept your conclusion that 75% of romanian lexicon is of french origin? Think again, and think better what you want to do. For your sake, not ours... we are not afraid you will discover a secret or something...


Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 05:40 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Did the Latinists only try to tamper with the spellings of existing Latin words in Romanian? Their success or failure in the word list you gave wouldn't even show up in the DEX because the Latin root in all cases remained the same.

Surely changing an introduced French word like "circonstance" to "circumstanta" is also a form of Latinisation?

And what about the 2.4% of Romanian words apparently drawn directly from Classical Latin?

And what about the changing of the script from Cyrillic to Latin?

Is this not all evidence of "Latinisation", whether directly promoted by your "Latinists" or not?

And then, on top of that we have very large numbers of French and some Italian words adopted into the Romanian language, which I was happy to sideline under the suggested heading of "Romancisation", but which you and your source originally happily subsumed under the term "Latin" in origin without differentiation?

Here are a couple of the questions that I have asked several times and are still to be answered:

Can anyone offer sourced Romanian definitions of dialect and grai? What does your DEX say?

When was the first Romanian dictionary, written entirely in Romanian, published? We have the 1825 Lexiconul de la Budapest offered as the first multi-language dictionary, but you have expressed so reservations over the use of multi-language dictionaries. OK. When was the first Romanian dictionary, written entirely in Romanian, published?

And one new one:

Are there any grammatical terms used in Romanian that are not of French origin? If so, what?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 23, 2005 05:48 pm
P.S. Whether you agree or disagree with any results of the random sample word-origin count won't much matter if you don't make any effort to either do it yourself or contribute in advance to the methodology when given the chance, will it?

Still plenty of time to change your mind.................

Posted by: dragos August 23, 2005 05:52 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 08:40 PM)
Can anyone offer sourced Romanian definitions of dialect and grai? What does your DEX say?

You can use http://dexonline.ro/

QUOTE (sid)
When was the first Romanian dictionary, written entirely in Romanian, published?


http://www.acad.ro/academia2002/acadrom/pag05_01.htm

Posted by: dragos August 23, 2005 06:03 pm
Another problem with the word count from DEX would be:

DIALECT (< fr., lat.)

Which one do you pick?

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 07:00 pm
The Dialect Issue

QUOTE
- Dialect divergent (atipic) -- fara contact geografic si lingvistic cu celelalte unitati teritoriale ale unei limbi, fara perspectiva unirii sale cu limba nationala careia ii apartine din punct de vedere genetico-structural si fara perspectiva de a deveni limba independenta.
  De exemplu: dialectul cosican in raport cu italiana, dialectele romanesti sud-dunarene (aroman, meglenoroman si istroroman) in raport cu limba romana.

  In mod traditional, cei mai multi lingvisti romani considera ca limba romana a dispus si dispune de patru dialecte distincte:
  a) dialectul daco-roman, rezultat din scindarea limbii romane comune (intre secolele al IX-lea si XIII-lea) vorbita in nordul si in sudul Dunarii - cel mai raspandit si mai dezvoltat dialect, singurul devenit limba nationala si literara.

  [...] (enumerarea dialectelor sud-dunarene)

  Limbii romane actuale, care are la baza dialectul daco-roman, ii sunt proprii, dupa parerea majoritatii lingvistilor romani, cinci subdialecte:
  subdialectul muntean  [...]
  subdialectul moldovean                  [...]
  subdialectul maramuresean
  subdialectul crisean
  subdialectul banatean


  [...]

  Baza dialectala a unei limbi literare o constituie un anumit (sub)dialect. Altfel, pentru romana: subdialectul muntean; pentru italiana: dialectul florentin; pentru spaniola: dialectul castillan etc.


QUOTE
O parere cu totul opusa privind dialectele limbii romane au G. Giulea, acad. Al. Graur si acad. Ion Coteanu, care consider ca [...] fiecare dintre aceste idiomuri ar reprezenta cate o limba aparte (romana, aromana, meglenoromana si istroroomana).
  In conceptia lor subdialectele limbii romane actuale nu ar fi altceva decat niste dialecte, fata de care se subordoneaza anumite graiuri.


The Grai Issue

QUOTE

Trebuie spus ca pentru romana actuala parerile in privinta graiurilor sunt impartite: unii lingvisti considera graiurile unitatile care pentru altii sunt dialecte (muntean, moldovean, crisean, banatean) in timp ce alti lingvisti considera graiurile unitati care pentru ceilalti sunt subdialecte (oltean, ialomitean, vrancean, putnean, osan etc.)


source:
Mic Dictionar de Terminologie Lingvistica

Posted by: Zayets August 23, 2005 07:08 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 05:15 PM)
Hi Imperialist and Zayets,

You have been offered ample opportunity to:

1) Yourselves make the sample word count, for which you are both better equipped than I am by virtue of both already possessing the DEX.

or

2) Contribute in advance to the methodology to be employed by me in assembling that sample.

If you do neither, you will have surrendered all right to criticise any result by virtue of being contributory to any failings.

As it is likely to be a couple of months at least before I get access to a DEX myself, you have plenty of time to make a positive contribution and I look forward to it.

Cheers,

Sid.

Dear Sid,
I realy don't care which opportunity you offered me to prove that YOUR source is not wrong! I said, and I will say again,your math sucks. Just add the percentage and then come back and tell us what you found.
I don't want to count all DEX words , is not in my task list. A sample in this case (which obviously,is less than 100%) is a false result.As I said earlier we dont make a poll here but a count.If you can't understand that then go ahead and smash your head into the DEX with your method.Which by the way it will be contested the very moment you will present your results.
Your second point only made me smile.And BTW, I did not surrendered anything since I did not know I wasn't right. From the very begining you were on the wrong side,I was on the good one. I have lost nothing and I hardly doubt I will lose this one.Unlike you , I am a contributor to the Romanian language by speaking it daily.You are just someone that came in fishing trying to endorse (that's a long shot anyway) something you didn't even thought will turn against you.
As for your couple of months until you'll get your DEX,I don't worry,you will not even get one.Is not even your plan.
Cheers and have a good one.I am waiting your results.To contest them,scientifically as I did until now,obviously.

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 07:15 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 05:40 PM)





QUOTE
Surely changing an introduced French word like "circonstance" to "circumstanta" is also a form of Latinisation?


Hello... remember I told you the DEX gives circumstanta a direct latin origin???

QUOTE
And what about the changing of the script from Cyrillic to Latin?


What about it?

QUOTE
Is this not all evidence of "Latinisation", whether directly promoted by your "Latinists" or not?


Maybe yes, maybe no, but you initially referred to the purification of the language and rooting out slavic words when you first introduced the term re-latinisation on this thread. You didn even take back those statements, and now morph again. At least admit you were wrong about what you initially claimed.

QUOTE
And then, on top of that we have very large numbers of French and some Italian words adopted into the Romanian language, which I was happy to sideline under the suggested heading of "Romancisation", but which you and your source originally happily subsumed under the term "Latin" in origin without differentiation?


So? My source offered the total of 80%. Direct and indirect, no doubt. So? Yours offered a total of 63% and a missing unaccounted for 15%. Hmm... tough choice, which source should we pick?

QUOTE
Are there any grammatical terms used in Romanian that are not of French origin? If so, what?


Sid, do you take us for fools here?
Do you have a project for school or a research to make?
We should now ask you, are the grammatical terms used in Romanian, in your view, exclusively of French origin? And if so, whats your source?

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 07:21 pm
QUOTE (dragos @ Aug 23 2005, 06:03 PM)
Another problem with the word count from DEX would be:

DIALECT (< fr., lat.)

Which one do you pick?

Dragos, Sid may be unaware of the existence of something called multiple ethymology.
Usually the introductive part of the DEX should clarify which one of the 2 origins mentioned is the one from which the word entered use.
But for some words its unclear or more complicated (multiple ethymology).

take care

Posted by: Imperialist August 23, 2005 08:18 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 23 2005, 05:48 PM)
P.S.  Whether you agree or disagree with any results of the random sample word-origin count won't much matter if you don't make any effort to either do it yourself or contribute in advance to the methodology when given the chance, will it?

Still plenty of time to change your mind.................

laugh.gif

Sid, I spent 1 year attending both statistics and research methodology courses. I have also taken polls in Bucharest. I have done several researches using the knowledge I gained.
All I wanted here was to warn you that your intention of random counting words and deriving percentages from that random count will have no scientific relevancy for the entire lexicon unless you engage in far more complex things than that.
I dont intend to give you directions, nor do your work. I think I was pretty fair-play to warn you. I could've left you to embarass yourself again, and I could have thrashed your results. But I didnt want to do that to you and presumably your good-intentended research.

As for the general thread here, I do feel you continue to search for something and press us to give you sources and info on things. But you have long ceased to bring your own source contribution on this thread. You just ask question which have a certain character ( cu substrat -- would be the romanian saying).

take care

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 24, 2005 09:31 am
QUOTE
- Dialect divergent (atipic) -- fara contact geografic si lingvistic cu celelalte unitati teritoriale ale unei limbi, fara perspectiva unirii sale cu limba nationala careia ii apartine din punct de vedere genetico-structural si fara perspectiva de a deveni limba independenta.
  De exemplu: dialectul cosican in raport cu italiana, dialectele romanesti sud-dunarene (aroman, meglenoroman si istroroman) in raport cu limba romana.

  In mod traditional, cei mai multi lingvisti romani considera ca limba romana a dispus si dispune de patru dialecte distincte:
  a) dialectul daco-roman, rezultat din scindarea limbii romane comune (intre secolele al IX-lea si XIII-lea) vorbita in nordul si in sudul Dunarii - cel mai raspandit si mai dezvoltat dialect, singurul devenit limba nationala si literara.

  [...] (enumerarea dialectelor sud-dunarene)

  Limbii romane actuale, care are la baza dialectul daco-roman, ii sunt proprii, dupa parerea majoritatii lingvistilor romani, cinci subdialecte:
  subdialectul muntean  [...]
  subdialectul moldovean                  [...]
  subdialectul maramuresean
  subdialectul crisean
  subdialectul banatean

  [...]

  Baza dialectala a unei limbi literare o constituie un anumit (sub)dialect. Altfel, pentru romana: subdialectul muntean; pentru italiana: dialectul florentin; pentru spaniola: dialectul castillan etc.



Sid let me know if you need this translated. Basically it says the only true dialects are not in Romania but South of the Danube and within Romania we have 5 subdialects (that would mean something less then a dialect), as you can see they cannot name dialects within the country.

BTW: I am reading now in "Istoria Romanialor vol VII" issued by Academia Romana, about the cultural development in Romania (Muntenia, Moldova and Transilvania) in the fisrt half of 19th century, there was an attempt to implement french language in schools as official teaching language but that failed - some of the enlighten heads strongly oposed this and saw it as a threadt to our own language and culture.

Also, about the chirilic writings - how did it get in Romania ? Did it come from slavic cultures ? I think not - my opinion is as follows: there were 2 major religions in Europe Catholic and Orthodox (untill the 15th century), considering that romanian official church was always orthodox and the center of Orthodox church was in Greece/Byzantium and also the most writings in early times were provided by the church, it was only normal that we used greek writing which is just like chirilic writing, ofcourse after some time the slavic entities around us having the same religion and using chirilic writing (with the byzantin empire gone) we started using same type of writing as them. As far as I know the oldest writings made in our teritory after being conquered by romans, date from around 9th century and belong to the church, it would be great if we were able to see those unfortunatelly I was told only a special few have access to them.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 10:11 am
Hi Dragos,

Many thanks.

I had seen the Academia Romana site, which mentions a first academic grammar from 1859 and a first academic dictionary from 1871. However, I got the impression from Imperialist's posts that there was at least one earlier all-Romanian dictionary predating the 1840s, which was before the Academia Romana was founded.

With regard to the "Fr., Lat" issue. It is clear that most French words are derived from Latin. However, if a French reference appears in the DEX my working assumption would be that the current word arrived in Romanian via French, almost certainly since the early 19th Century because earlier contact was minimal. If the word had come directly from Latin, there would presumably be no need for a French reference in the DEX at all.

Thus the word "circumstanta" would appear on my list as of French provenance (circonstance), even though it originally arrived in French from Latin. Similarly, the word "imprejurare" would appear on my list as Latin, even though its stem is of Greek provenance (yupo/guro).

Any suggested refinements would be welcome.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 10:34 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 24 2005, 10:11 AM)

With regard to the "Fr., Lat" issue. It is clear that most French words are derived from Latin. However, if a French reference appears in the DEX my working assumption would be that the current word arrived in Romanian via French, almost certainly since the early 19th Century because earlier contact was minimal. If the word had come directly from Latin, there would presumably be no need for a French reference in the DEX at all.

Hi Sid,
Now if you readed carefuly my posts you'd understand what I meant.For example :
CODE

brother - frate/fratern


First one is directly Latin descendant,secondly is also although most probably you'd find fr.,lat. Thus? What gives? Why would you choose French instead Latin?
Also,do you read what others said about multiple etimology?

Finally,why not a French refference for a certain word next to the Latin one? As was already pointed out ALL Romance language keep a base of around 20% Latin (including Romanian unless you suggest otherwise),right?
Given this fact then why rule that a word having multiple etimology (in this case fr,lat) has French origin???? Your rationament does not make sense.

Take care

Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 10:35 am
Hi Imperialist,

Thanks very much for the answer on dialect and grai.

So, in essence:

1) Romanian as used in Romania is a dialect, not a language.

2) The five forms of the Romanian speech I originally called "dialects" are actually "sub-dialects" according to the majority of Romanian linguists, but not all (see your last quote).

3) Some Romanian linguists think graie are dialects and others think they are sub-dialects.

My strong inclination is to leave this issue alone. As it would appear that the experts have yet to reach a consensus on it, our inexpert input would seem to be entirely superfluous.

Thanks again for some strong quotes.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 10:36 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 24 2005, 10:35 AM)
1) Romanian as used in Romania is a dialect, not a language.


And pardon my humble question. A dialect of which main language if I dare to ask?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 10:56 am
Hi Zayets,

The on line DEX gives both frate and fratern as Latin without French mediation.

Have you a better example?

I am delighted that you are now beginning to use my sources (20%, etc.). Welcome aboard.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 24, 2005 11:01 am
QUOTE
I am delighted that you are now beginning to use my sources (20%, etc.). Welcome aboard.
laugh.gif biggrin.gif lol, Zayets you should have taken more time to write that.



Sid: "1) Romanian as used in Romania is a dialect, not a language." I think you did not understand what you read in that quote.

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 11:05 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 24 2005, 10:56 AM)
Hi Zayets,

The on line DEX gives both frate and fratern as Latin without French mediation.

Have you a better example?

I am delighted that you are now beginning to use my sources (20%, etc.). Welcome aboard.

Cheers,

Sid.

I thought you don't have the DEX.
Anyway, the 20% was never in dispute.Is signaled first time by Agarici as a part that you intentionally left aside when you posted your "research". We are talking about 20% base here for every Romance language,watch out. This was never in dispute.
I guess I gave you more exaples in a previous post.Anyway, look very attent at what I wrote , I said probably not for sure. So please don't twist my words.

Secondly,Romanian is a dialect you conclude when it was pointed out that Romanian has dialects as explained here : http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Romanian_language

I am sorry,but you are wrong again.

later edit : I said earlier water ->apa/acvatic

ACVÁTIC, -Ă, acvatici, -ce, adj. 1. De apă, care trăieşte în apă. 2. Format din apă. ◊ Mediu acvatic = apă ca mediu de viaţă. – Din lat. aquaticus, fr. aquatique.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 11:07 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

Thanks for the translation offer. I think I got the sense right, but if I haven't, please let me know.

Yes. I also think that Cyrillic arrived through the Orthodox Church, which invented the script in one of its southern Balkan monasteries, if I remember correctly. Had Romanian speakers been Roman Catholic I guess they would have inherited the Latin script in the same way.

As a matter of interest, are any of the diacritical marks/accents used in Romanian an attempt to convey a Cyrillic sound in Latin script? I am thinking particularly of the sedila under "s" and "t"?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 11:11 am
Did not know that Latin had a "sh" sound.Definitely it has "tz" . But maybe I am wrong.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 11:17 am
Hi Zayets,

Please justify or withdraw the accusation that I "deliberately" left anything aside. It is particularly ridiculous as it was on a link I supplied. You wouldn't even know about it if it wasn't for me, would you?

Actually, it was Imperialist's post that stated that Daco-Roman (i.e. "Romanian as used in Romania") is a dialect of Romanian. Even the source you gave states that. Please check.

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge August 24, 2005 11:31 am
P.S. In the given case of acvatic it would go on my list as a French introduction. However, I imagine that apa was always in the Romanian language ("water" is one of the 100 base words used by glottochronologists) and so would go on my list as Latin.

P.P.S. I am so glad that we are agreed that the 20% direct Latin origin given in the Romanian Community in Belgium and Luxemburg link is plausible. After all, as you say, it is typical for every Latin language. This only leaves the 60% between it and Imperialists 80% Latin origin to account for.

Perhaps you would care to offer some suggestions? You don't like my source that suggest 38% French, so perhaps you would care to come up with some other suggestions?

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 11:42 am
No Sid,you are wrong and as usual you shift the conversation. The whole 20% was never in discussion.Was the source.Is that simple. Your source can't be EVEN PLAUSIBLE for the missing 15% Imperialist pointed out to you.
The 20% you are so keen to agree with me (or anyone else for that matter) is not the point here. If you are saying that French has almost 39% and the same French has also 20% Latin as base where the rest (making indirect Latin words) are? 19% For crying out loud Sid, these are numbers.Unlike words they can't have nuances.They are plain numbers,cold numbers.And your math is wrong.What is so difficult to understand?

QUOTE
P.S. In the given case of acvatic it would go on my list as a French introduction. However, I imagine that apa was always in the Romanian language ("water" is one of the 100 base words used by glottochronologists) and so would go on my list as Latin.


That proves Imperialist point. You can't even conduct such count since your assumptions are wrong from the start.And also proves my point(in fact lingvistic since they researched that) that words were re-introduced in Romanian.

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 12:23 pm
Sid,I took some 30 mins to check somethings about your percentages.Everywhere where I look it says (as I pointed out before) that this 38,x% comes from French AND Italian. The only rwmark that this amount of words are inherited from French only are in your (francophone) source bad in math.So this is for you,information is duplicate sometimes,but I am sure you are an inteligent person and pick whats best for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language
http://www.answers.com/topic/romanian-language
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Romanian:language.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/r/ro/romanian_language.htm
http://language.school-explorer.com/info/Romanian_language
http://encyclopedie-en.snyke.com/articles/romanian_language.html
http://www.onelang.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Romanian_language
http://july.fixedreference.org/en/20040724/wikipedia/Romanian_language
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Romanian-language
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/ital/romanian.html

Oh,in case you did not know,Romania is not a francophone country. Was never francophone. Probably francofil but I don't think it was fully francofil ever given the fact that France could care less about Romania in the last 200-300 years.But maybe I am wrong,who knows

Posted by: Dénes August 24, 2005 01:20 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 24 2005, 06:23 PM)
Oh,in case you did not know,Romania is not a francophone country. Was never francophone.

Rumania is part of La Francophonie for 12 years now:
QUOTE

Et voilà, que la Roumanie a célébré déjà 8 ans depuis son admission en qualité de membre à part entière de la Francophonie (Sommet de Maurice -le 16 octobre 1993).


BTW, according to the web site of the Republic of Rumania's Paris Embassy,
QUOTE
«un Roumain sur quatre connaîtrait le français et le pays compterait 27% francophones».
or [more than] every fourth Rumanian knows French... ohmy.gif

And:
QUOTE
950.000 Roumains sont des francophones réels
3.000.000 Roumains des francophones occasionnels.


This contradicts the above information, however. Based on a 23 million census, 950.000 persons represent only 4.13% of Rumania's population.

[Source: http://www.amb-roumanie.fr/francofonie.html]

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 01:25 pm
Sorry to say,Romania's national language is not French. Romania is only part of OIF but that does not means is francophone.
Is Albania francophone?Or Bulgaria?Or Egypt?Or Dominica?Or Macedonia???
Because they are members of teh same organisation.Here's the link:
http://www.fll.vt.edu/French/francophonie.html

PS: let's not deviate from the thread subject
PPS: francophone means french-speaking isn't it?

Posted by: Imperialist August 24, 2005 04:31 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 24 2005, 10:35 AM)

Thanks very much for the answer on dialect and grai.

So, in essence:

1) Romanian as used in Romania is a dialect, not a language.


No, in essence Romanian is a language based on the daco-roman dialect which is common for all the territory north of the Danube, but which has regional subdialects.
What the heck lead you to the conclusion that Romanian as used in Romania is not a language, but a dialect?

Posted by: Imperialist August 24, 2005 04:54 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 24 2005, 10:35 AM)


My strong inclination is to leave this issue alone. As it would appear that the experts have yet to reach a consensus on it, our inexpert input would seem to be entirely superfluous.


Oh, but why should we leave the issue alone now, Sid? I am waiting for you to clarify that Bucharest dialect issue you were speaking about... So, what Bucharest dialect were you talking about?

Posted by: Zayets August 24, 2005 06:26 pm
I have seen this somewhere on internet,so called Bucharest dialect. I believe they wanted to say Muntenia/Tara Romaneasca accent.Simply because they don't know any other city in the southern Romania. Simply.Bunch of "experts".

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 24, 2005 06:33 pm
Sid I think you didn't understand very well what was stated in that text. Here is the text again:

QUOTE
- Dialect divergent (atipic) -- fara contact geografic si lingvistic cu celelalte unitati teritoriale ale unei limbi, fara perspectiva unirii sale cu limba nationala careia ii apartine din punct de vedere genetico-structural si fara perspectiva de a deveni limba independenta.
  De exemplu: dialectul cosican in raport cu italiana, dialectele romanesti sud-dunarene (aroman, meglenoroman si istroroman) in raport cu limba romana.

  In mod traditional, cei mai multi lingvisti romani considera ca limba romana a dispus si dispune de patru dialecte distincte:
  a) dialectul daco-roman, rezultat din scindarea limbii romane comune (intre secolele al IX-lea si XIII-lea) vorbita in nordul si in sudul Dunarii - cel mai raspandit si mai dezvoltat dialect, singurul devenit limba nationala si literara.

  [...] (enumerarea dialectelor sud-dunarene)

  Limbii romane actuale, care are la baza dialectul daco-roman, ii sunt proprii, dupa parerea majoritatii lingvistilor romani, cinci subdialecte:
  subdialectul muntean  [...]
  subdialectul moldovean                  [...]
  subdialectul maramuresean
  subdialectul crisean
  subdialectul banatean

  [...]

  Baza dialectala a unei limbi literare o constituie un anumit (sub)dialect. Altfel, pentru romana: subdialectul muntean; pentru italiana: dialectul florentin; pentru spaniola: dialectul castillan etc.




And here is your first conclusion:
QUOTE
1) Romanian as used in Romania is a dialect, not a language.



What is called here "Dialectul Daco-Roman" appeared betwen the IX-th and XII-th century, it was called a so to make a difference between the language spoken by romanians and those living south of Danube, so basically the Daco-Roman dialect was the language inherited by today Romanians some 12 centuries ago and the others you may call dialects are those languages spoken by NON-Romanians found South of the Danube. Also it is stated that the Daco-Romanian dialect was "cel mai raspandit si mai dezvoltat " the most spread and developed (meaning the Daco-Roman dialect was the srongest and the most widespread thus it was powerfull enough to remain here for cenutries to follow). This means we all speak the same language without any dialects. About the sub-dialects mentioned - why is it called "sub-dialect", it is called so because the differences are not enough to call them dialects (as I said many times before: same vocabulary, same grammer, different accent amd VERY few different words). Also, considering there is only 1 Romania with only 1 language spoken, I would not say our language is a dialect - a dialect of whom ?
Aromanii, macedoromanii, etc. are not romanians and do not speak romanian (they speak aromana, macedoromana...) it is like Spain and Portugal: two similar languages but different, you would not call portugese a dialect of spanish or viceversa, right ?

Posted by: Victor August 24, 2005 08:38 pm
QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 24 2005, 11:31 AM)
Also, about the chirilic writings - how did it get in Romania ? Did it come from slavic cultures ? I think not - my opinion is as follows: there were 2 major religions in Europe Catholic and Orthodox (untill the 15th century), considering that romanian official church was always orthodox and the center of Orthodox church was in Greece/Byzantium and also the most writings in early times were provided by the church, it was only normal that we used greek writing which is just like chirilic writing, ofcourse after some time the slavic entities around us having the same religion and using chirilic writing (with the byzantin empire gone) we started using same type of writing as them. As far as I know the oldest writings made in our teritory after being conquered by romans, date from around 9th century and belong to the church, it would be great if we were able to see those unfortunatelly I was told only a special few have access to them.

The use of the Slavonic language in the court documents started after the formation of the two states: in 1374 in Walachia, during the reign of Vlaicu I, and in Moldavia in 1392 during the reign of Roman I. Until then it was Latin.

Why Slavonic? Because the ties with the Orthodox Patriarchy in Constantinople could only be kept through the Bulgarian and Serbian states, which themselves were also part of the Byzantine cultural sphere.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 24, 2005 11:18 pm
QUOTE
The use of the Slavonic language in the court documents started after the formation of the two states: in 1374 in Walachia, during the reign of Vlaicu I, and in Moldavia in 1392 during the reign of Roman I. Until then it was Latin.


Any ideea what type of writing was used in church writings from the 10th century ?

Posted by: Victor August 25, 2005 04:53 am
I don't think they did that much writing then. There wasn't any Romanian episcopy back then, no organized structure. There were some monastaries in the Banat, but like I said many times before, most of my books are packed up and stored in a friend's cellar.

Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu August 25, 2005 08:45 am
Victor I know for sure that the oldest writings within our country were made by church members during the 10th century, also these writings are kept safe and only a few have access to them, however I wonder what type of writing would they use.
One more thing: the need for writing is not 100% dependant on an episcopy. There are many reasons why an organized entity would feel the need to write something somewhere.

Posted by: Olaf The Viking August 25, 2005 10:00 am
Isn't the oldest writtings found in Tartaria, on ceramic tablets? They are dated to be before sumerian tablets, which were the first writtings (pictograms) in the world?

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 10:27 am
Hi Imperialist,

I don't much mind whether Romanian is a language or dialect.

However, if it is a language, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "dialect", not "sub-dialect"?

On the other hand, if it is a dialect, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "sub-dialect"?

My personal inclination is to regard Romanian as a distinct language on a par with Italian or Spanish. The logical extension of this is therefore that the next level of regional speech subdivisions are dialects.

Anyway, as I said above, in view of the fact that the relevant experts haven't yet sorted this one out themeselves, I doubt we can contribute much to the debate.

Fear not. The quote about the Bucharest area (i.e. Wallachia as was) dialect being the basis of the modern romanian language, is on its way.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 10:51 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 10:27 AM)
Fear not. The quote about the Bucharest area (i.e. Wallachia as was) dialect being the basis of the modern romanian language, is on its way.

Cool.I hope this time is not an internet address not mantained anymore or not backed up with bibliography and so on.
Take care.

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 10:54 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 10:27 AM)
Hi Imperialist,

I don't much mind whether Romanian is a language or dialect.

However, if it is a language, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "dialect", not "sub-dialect"?

On the other hand, if it is a dialect, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "sub-dialect"?

My personal inclination is to regard Romanian as a distinct language on a par with Italian or Spanish. The logical extension of this is therefore that the next level of regional speech subdivisions are dialects.

Anyway, as I said above, in view of the fact that the relevant experts haven't yet sorted this one out themeselves, I doubt we can contribute much to the debate.

Fear not. The quote about the Bucharest area (i.e. Wallachia as was) dialect being the basis of the modern romanian language, is on its way.

Cheers,

Sid.

QUOTE
I don't much mind whether Romanian is a language or dialect.


The question is not about minding, the question is about accuracy and truth. Romanian is a language formed on the basis of the daco-roman dialect.

QUOTE
However, if it is a language, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "dialect", not "sub-dialect"?

On the other hand, if it is a dialect, then the next subdivision of regional speech is surely "sub-dialect"?


The 5 subdialects mentioned, muntean;moldovean;banatean;crisean;maramuresean are subdialects in relation to the daco-roman dialect which is at the basis of the Romanian language.

QUOTE
My personal inclination is to regard Romanian as a distinct language on a par with Italian or Spanish. The logical extension of this is therefore that the next level of regional speech subdivisions are dialects.


See the above.

QUOTE
Anyway, as I said above, in view of the fact that the relevant experts haven't yet sorted this one out themeselves, I doubt we can contribute much to the debate.


I think they very much did. A majority of them share a common opinion. See the original quote on the dialect issue.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 10:55 am
Hi D13th Mytzu,

As far as I can tell, the quote is ambiguous.

It says that the "limbii romane actuale" is descended from "dialectul daco-roman" and according to most Romanian linguists has "cinci subdialecte".

Surely, the logic of this is that if Romanian has sub-dialects it must itself be a dialect? Other wise the sub-dialects have no "dialect" of which to be "sub-".

If Romanian is considered a language, logically its next regional subdivision will be into dialects.

If Romanian is considered a dialect, logically its next regional subdivision is a sub-dialect.

However, I would suggest that it is inherently irrational for Romanian to be a language and its next regional subdivision a sub-dialect.

Personally, I have always thought of Romanian as a full language on a par with Spanish or Italian, and it therefore seems logical to regard its five subdivisions as dialects, as my original source said.

I think that Victor's much earlier suggestion that it is all a matter of definition is well advised, especially as it appears from Imperialist's quotes that there is no concensus on these issues amongst specialist Romanian scholars.

That is why I suggest that it is fairly fruitless for us to continue debating this particular topic. If the experts can't agree, what hope have we?

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 11:11 am
Hi Victor or D13th Mytzu,

Could you confirm whether in translation "Limbii romane actuale, care are la baza dialectul daco-roman, ii sunt proprii, dupa parerea majoritatii lingvistilor romani, cinci subdialecte:....." refers to five subdialects of daco-roman or five dialects of the current Romanian language?

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 11:16 am
P.S. The final "dialects" should read "subdialects",

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 11:32 am
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 11:11 AM)
Hi Victor or D13th Mytzu,

Could you confirm whether in translation "Limbii romane actuale, care are la baza dialectul daco-roman, ii sunt proprii, dupa parerea majoritatii lingvistilor romani, cinci subdialecte:....." refers to five subdialects of daco-roman or five dialects of the current Romanian language?

Cheers,

Sid.

You earlier said that using logic the relation is subdialect-dialect-language or in reverse order languag-dialect-subdialect.

So, in your view, when saying "the Romanian language, based on the the daco-roman dialect, has 5 subdialects..." whats unclear? blink.gif

Its pretty clear. Use your logic man.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 12:18 pm
Hi Imperialist,

1) You at 1054AM: "The five subdialects mentioned........ are subdialects in relation to the daco-roman dialect, which is at the basis of the Romanian language". Meaning: Daco-Romanian had five sub-dialects.

2) You at 1132AM: "The Romanian language, based on the Daco-Roman dialect, has 5 subdialects....". Meaning: Current Romanian has five sub-dialects.

You see the problem?

I appreciate that you are writing here in a second language, so I am not going to make a big issue of it, but I would appreciate clarification as to which you mean.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 12:24 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 12:18 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

1) You at 1054AM: "The five subdialects mentioned........ are subdialects in relation to the daco-roman dialect, which is at the basis of the Romanian language". Meaning: Daco-Romanian had five sub-dialects.

2) You at 1132AM: "The Romanian language, based on the Daco-Roman dialect, has 5 subdialects....". Meaning: Current Romanian has five sub-dialects.

You see the problem?

I appreciate that you are writing here in a second language, so I am not going to make a big issue of it, but I would appreciate clarification as to which you mean.

Cheers,

Sid.

Jesus Christ Sid!
You take the whole doodoo out their context and you posted a conclusion based on that! And then you wonder why this discussion started.Unbelieveable how tard some people are.

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 12:27 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 12:18 PM)


1) You at 1054AM: "The five subdialects mentioned........ are subdialects in relation to the daco-roman dialect, which is at the basis of the Romanian language". Meaning: Daco-Romanian had five sub-dialects.

2) You at 1132AM: "The Romanian language, based on the Daco-Roman dialect, has 5 subdialects....". Meaning: Current Romanian has five sub-dialects.

You see the problem?


No, I see no problem.
There are 4 dialects -- 3 south of the danube, 1 north of the danube. The one north of the danube has 5 subdialects. The same north danube dialect, due to particular historical development has lead to the development of the Romanian language.
So you either accept that the Romanian language developed on the basis of the daco-roman dialect has 5 sub-dialects, either you accept that the daco-roman dialect, the basis of the Romanian language, has 5 subdialects. Either way, its pretty much the same things, hence, I see no problem. Why do you want to create a probelm out of this too?

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 12:48 pm
QUOTE (Olaf The Viking @ Aug 25 2005, 10:00 AM)
Isn't the oldest writtings found in Tartaria, on ceramic tablets? They are dated to be before sumerian tablets, which were the first writtings (pictograms) in the world?

I think you should open a new thread for this Olaf, especially if someone has some images with those clay tablets.
Yes, some say they are the earliest, but they certainly are not written in Romanian... wink.gif

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 01:10 pm
Hi Imperialist,

Why am I not suprised that you see no problem in giving two diametrically opposed renditions of exactly the same piece of Romanian and then contending that both are accurate?

I will continue to ask D13th Mytzu and/or Victor how the passage actually translates, as you are patently incapable of giving a straight answer.

Cheers,

Sid.

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 01:21 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 01:10 PM)
Hi Imperialist,

Why am I not suprised that you see no problem in giving two diametrically opposed renditions of exactly the same piece of Romanian and then contending that both are accurate?

I will continue to ask D13th Mytzu and/or Victor how the passage actually translates, as you are patently incapable of giving a straight answer.

Cheers,

Sid.


QUOTE

I will continue to ask D13th Mytzu and/or Victor how the passage actually translates, as you are patently incapable of giving a straight answer.


OK, this is a gratuitous personal remark. I hope the moderators will take the appropriate measures.

I have gone at length to find sources, give explanations and examples so as to answer to your questions or assertions. My patience has limits. This is another deliberate attempt of yours to flame the thread by using personal remarks.

This was my message to which you replied:

QUOTE
No, I see no problem.
There are 4 dialects -- 3 south of the danube, 1 north of the danube. The one north of the danube has 5 subdialects. The same north danube dialect, due to particular historical development has lead to the development of the Romanian language.
So you either accept that the Romanian language developed on the basis of the daco-roman dialect has 5 sub-dialects, either you accept that the daco-roman dialect, the basis of the Romanian language, has 5 subdialects. Either way, its pretty much the same things, hence, I see no problem. Why do you want to create a probelm out of this too?


Are there ANY personal remarks from me against you? No, just a "patently incapable" explanation... dry.gif


Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 01:24 pm
But then I ask what are the 5 subdialects of the Daco-Roman dialect?

And Sid, cut the **** and stick to the conversation.You are drifting away again and you put your own words into somebody else's mouth. Please.

Posted by: Imperialist August 25, 2005 01:28 pm
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 25 2005, 01:24 PM)
But then I ask what are the 5 subdialects of the Daco-Roman dialect?


What do you mean?

Posted by: dragos August 25, 2005 01:34 pm
Avoid the personal remarks and stay on topic.

Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 01:39 pm
QUOTE (Imperialist @ Aug 25 2005, 01:28 PM)
QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 25 2005, 01:24 PM)
But then I ask what are the 5 subdialects of the Daco-Roman dialect?


What do you mean?

Sid drawn this conclusion:

QUOTE
1) You at 1054AM: "The five subdialects mentioned........ are subdialects in relation to the daco-roman dialect, which is at the basis of the Romanian language". Meaning: Daco-Romanian had five sub-dialects.


And I wonder which are the five subdialects of the Daco-Romanian.

Posted by: Victor August 25, 2005 02:36 pm
QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 25 2005, 03:10 PM)
I will continue to ask D13th Mytzu and/or Victor how the passage actually translates, as you are patently incapable of giving a straight answer.

The second translation is the correct one:

"The Romanian language, based on the Daco-Roman dialect, has 5 subdialects"

Personally I feel that this discussion has long since lost its purpouse. I am also fascinated by the interest shown in this topic, not really related to the forum's direction, although I feel that it is more of a stubborn desire of some to have the last word.

Imperialist, calm down, you are not being insulted.

Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 03:11 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ Aug 25 2005, 02:36 PM)
although I feel that it is more of a stubborn desire of some to have the last word.

Amen to that. I feel the same.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 25, 2005 03:33 pm
Hi Guys,

Now that that is cleared up by a straight answer.....

The earlier promised quote regarding the origins of the current Romanian national language in the dialect of the region around Bucharest is as follows:

"The Rumanian literary language is based mainly on the Daco-Romanian dialect of Walachia. It assumed importance only at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries. Before that all literary output was dialectical." Encyclopedia Britannica (1962), Vol.19, p.653.

And before anyone thinks that this is some sort of value judgement, I would draw your attention to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol.13, p.701:

"The term dialect carries no connotation of opprobrium to the linguist, and he uses it about the standard literary language of a world capital ("the dialect of Paris") as well as about the language of some isolated mountain village".

Cheers,

Sid.


Posted by: Zayets August 25, 2005 04:58 pm
QUOTE
Before that all LITERARY output was dialectical

I am sorry ,but you can do better than that.This reffer to the literary language.You were so quick in dismissing Mytzu's example,now you see he was right.
But that's just a remark.You still failed to give a quote stating that Bucharest "dialect" is the backbone of today's Romanian.

On a related note here , it is said that the purest Romanian is spoken in 2 counties,Arges and Dambovita.

Posted by: sid guttridge August 26, 2005 11:14 am
Hi Zayets,

Would that be the "Dambovita" in the former Walachia, that borders today on the municipality of Bucharest? And is it the "Arges" also in the former Walachia that borders today on "Dambovita"?

Thank you for your unexpected support.

Cheers,

Sid.

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