| QUOTE (Agarici @ Jul 19 2005, 05:02 PM) |
| Thanks a lot, Victor. But shouldn't your post have been added to the topic about the Romanian Aeronautics in 1940? |
I haven't noticed it when I first made the post.
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The Interwar Period (1920-1940) > Romania 1940 - the Possible War: Romanian Airforce |
| Posted by: Agarici July 18, 2005 09:52 pm |
| Organization, order of battle, planes (types, numbers) and additional information; photos; doctrines (cell vs. "flying circus"). |
| Posted by: Victor July 19, 2005 02:44 pm |
| ARR strength, August 1940: Fighters: -95 P.11f -30 P.24E -30 He-112B -11 Bf-109E-3 -12 Hurricane Mk. I -possibly some further 30 P.11c Total: 178 (208) Bombers: -22 S-79B -10 MB-210 -20 Potez 633B2 -32 He-111H-3 -22 P.37A&B -possibly some further 19 P.23B -possibly some further 10 Potez 543 Total: 106 (135) Recon: -50 IAR-37 -75 IAR-38 -95 IAR-39 (I am not sure how many were built by August 1940) -40 Blenheim Mk. I Total: 260 This list is a starting point. I am waiting for corrections/observations from the rest of you. As seen above, ARR seemed more powerful when compared to airforces of Bulgaria or Hungary, at least numberwise. The large diversity of aircraft deployed meant a lot of serviceability problems, which would obviously diminish the number of aircraft ready for action. Also, many types were practically obsolete and their characteristics were modest. |
| Posted by: Agarici July 19, 2005 03:02 pm |
| Thanks a lot, Victor. But shouldn't your post have been added to the topic about the Romanian Aeronautics in 1940? |
| Posted by: Dénes July 19, 2005 03:42 pm | ||
Victor gave a very good overall view. However, the numbers he mentioned are the theoretical overall numbers. Serviceability was much lower. ARR was clearly superior in both the numbers and combat capability to their hostile neighbours - except for the USSR, of course. Small wonder, though, as both Hungary and Bulgaria was prohibited by the post-war treaties to arm themselves (until the fall fo 1938). Finally, a small note, out of the 40 Blenheims ordered only 37 actually reached Rumania. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Victor July 20, 2005 04:28 am | ||
I haven't noticed it when I first made the post. |
| Posted by: Agarici July 20, 2005 06:17 pm |
| ROMANIAN AERONAUTICS, SUMMER 1940 - AIRPLANES: First, let’s take a look to how the situation evolved in the late 1930’s: Romanian Aeronautics, October 1938*: - 120 “information” (“informatie”, in the original text)/observation planes [IAR 37, IAR 38, Potez XXV?] - 72 fighter planes [PZL 11 F] - 16 bomber planes [Bloch MB 210 Verdun, Potez 543] - 64 liaison planes [Fleet 10 G] - 4 transport planes - 16 seaplanes [Savoia 55, Savoia 62 bis] Romanian Aeronautics, April 1939**: - 50 observation planes: 30 Potez XXV and 20 SET-K 7 - 40 recon planes: IAR 37 - 96 PZL fighter planes [PZL 11 F] - 19 bomber planes: 7 Bloch 210 [Bloch MB 210 Verdun], 6 Savoia 79 [Savoia-Marchetti 79] and5 Potez 54 [Potez 543] - 40 liaison planes: Fleet [Fleet 10 G] - 17 seaplanes: 12 Savoia 62 bis, 5 Savoia 55 Observation: all the dates in the brackets above belong to this post’s author. Various plans were elaborated in order to improve the existing situation, at different levels - the general political lidership, The Air and Navy Ministry (Ministerul Aerului si Marinei), the Defence Ministry (Ministerul Apararii Nationale), The Superior Council for National Defence (Consiliul Superior al Apararii Tarii) or the army General Staff. From 1936-1937 onwards IAR designers started the work on a monoplane, low wing, all metal fighter plane, which had to be powered by a Junkers Jumo engine. In the end, the engine failed to be delivered by its German manufacturer. Also in the late 1930’s it was decided that the IAR factories should produce under license a twin engine version of the Italian Savoia-Marchetti tri-engine bomber. Until the end of 1938, contracts were signed with foreign or indigenous manufacturers for 30 recon planes, 144 fighter planes, 80 bomber planes and 8 sea planes***. Until the beginning of 1940 procurement orders were placed for at least: - 50 Hawker Hurricanes Mk 1 fighters from Great Britain - 50 (according to “Top Gun” magazine, 100 - ordered in Spring 1939, to be delivered within a year; none entered service until September 1940) IAR 80 fighters from IAR factories - 36 (according to "Top Gun” magazine, up to 100) S 79 B (Savoia-Marchetti 79 modified) twin engine “fast bomber” from IAR factories - 50 Messerschmitt Me 109 E-3 fighters from Germany The situation for the Summer of 1940 was: - Fighter planes: • 96 PZL 11 F • 24 (36) PZL 24 E • 30 (36) Heinkel He 112 B 1&B 2 • 12 (24) Messerschmitt Me 109 E 3 • 12 Hawker Hurricane Mk 1 • (possible 24-36 PZL 11 C, ex-Polish?) a total of 174-204 fighters (228-240, adding the ex-Polish planes) - Bomber planes: • medium and medium heavy bombers: - 32 Heinkel He 111 H 3 - 24 (32) PZL 37 "Los" A&B - 10 (16) Bloch MB 210 Verdun - 8 (10-16) Potez 543 (total 74-96 planes) • medium light bombers: 24 Savoia-Marchetti S 79 B (+ another 24 IAR assembled?) • assault planes: - 30 (32) Potez 63 B 2 - 24 (32) PZL 23 “Karas” B (total 54-64 planes) a general total of 152-192 bombers - Observation planes (source - Victor’s previous post): • 50 IAR 37 (observation/light bomber) • 75 IAR 38 • IAR 39 - unknown number a total of at least 150-200 planes, judging also by the statistic for 1938 - Recon planes: 37 (40) Blenheim Mk 1 (recon/light bomber) - Liaison planes: Fleet 10 and Messerschmitt Me 108 Taifun, at least 40-52 planes - Seaplanes (mainly info from this site): • 16 (24) Savoia-Marchetti S 62 bis (recon/light bomber?) • 8 Savoia-Marchetti S 55 A (torpedo bomber) • 8 SET 4 H/7 H (what role?) • (12 CANT Z 501) • (12 Heinkel He 114 B ) a total of 32-64 seaplanes So, the estimated general total for the Romanian Aeronautics in the Summer of 1940 would be around 513(minimal figure)-672(maximal figure) planes (without the seaplanes; 545-736 with the seaplanes included). The liaison planes, being unarmed, have not been added to this number. Observation: the statistical situation presented above is complied from different sources. From large parts of it I used an article by Ion Taralunga, (“IAR 80”) published in “Modelism” magazine no. 24 (4/1989), p. 6, and info from this site. When the data was uncertain, I’ve tried to apply the existing organizational structure of the ARR (12 planes per fighter squadron, 8 planes per bomber squadron) to sort things out, so both the minimal and the maximal figures tend to force the existing data into this pattern (the first downwards, the second upwards). NOTES: * Ministry of the National Defense Archive, Ministry of Air and Navy section (“fond”), old inventory, dossier no. 501/1338, page 4, in Pascu, S., Ceausescu, I., Musat M.., Ardeleanu I. (coord.) - Romania in anii celui de-al doilea razboi mondial, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1989 (vol. 1), p. 205 ** Ministry of the National Defense Archive, General Staff section (“fond”), Section 1, dossier no. 1786, p. 7, in Pascu, S., Ceausescu, I., Musat M.., Ardeleanu I. (coord.) - Romania in anii celui de-al doilea razboi mondial, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1989 (vol. 1), p. 205 *** Ministry of the National Defense Archive, Ministry of Air and Navy section (“fond”), old inventory, dossier no. 501/1338, page 4, in Pascu, S., Ceausescu, I., Musat M.., Ardeleanu I. (coord.) - Romania in anii celui de-al doilea razboi mondial, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1989 (vol. 1), p. 205 |
| Posted by: Agarici April 05, 2006 04:38 pm |
| I've found a site containing an impressive database with cammo and markings for military airplanes, since WW 1 up to present: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/266/12 . Using it, I’m trying to create a list with the profiles of the airplanes in use in the Romanian air force, in 1940. Most of the profiles represent the pre-axis cammo and marking pattern. Here I should add that a particularity of the Romanian pre-WW 2 air force was the use of the national roundels in four position (on wings, below and above), and of national colors on the plane’s tail - similar with the pre-WW 2 Yugoslavian or US air forces. Also there was a preliminary “Axis-type” model of cammo (and markings), including the national roundels and the yellow fuselage band, wingtips and engine cowling (from the end of 1940 until the spring-summer of 1941); I use “pre-Axis” expression for the profiles use before that autumn 1940. Some of the profiles might be mistaken; if it’s the case, I’m waiting for suggestions. FIGHTERS: - PZL 11 f (pre-Axis): http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/237/213/0/2 http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/237/213/0/2_b1 PZL 11 c (b?), 1935-1936: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/237/213/0/1 - PZL 24: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/36/213/0/1 - Heinkel He 112 B-1&B-2(pre-Axis): http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/228/213/0/1 http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/228/213/0/2 Camouflage model around June 1941- a He 112 B-1 from Grupul 5 vanatoare. According to that site, “Romanian He.112's has two distinct paint schemes, half of them retained the original overall RLM63, while the other half were camouflaged with a wavy two-tone Green (RLM70/71) upper surfaces and Light Blue (RLM65) undersurfaces, the spinner was 3/4 Yellow and 1/3 Black”: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/228/12/0/3 - Messerschmitt Me 109 E-3: Me 109 E-3, the intermediary pro-Axis cammo&markings: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/32/213/0/1 - Hawker Hurricane Mk. 1: British cammo, Romanian Axis-type markings; again, try to picture it without the Michael cross and the yellow “nose” and fuselage band: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/79/12/0/2 |
| Posted by: Agarici April 05, 2006 05:18 pm |
| BOMBERS: - Heinkel He 111 H-3: German H-3, no reliable profile found for a Romanian one; the Romanians He 111s were probably painted in green (two-tones?)-light blue, with the national roundels on the wings and national colors on the direction: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/315/2/1/11 - PZL 37 Los A&B: PZL 37 B, summer 1940: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/266/12/0/4 - Bloch MB 210 Verdun: Roundels instead of crosses, no markings and yellow band on the fuselage: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/858/12/0/1 - Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 B (with K 14 engines): Spring 1941; I wonder if the profile is correct, even without the white fuselage band: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/314/12/0/3 |
| Posted by: Agarici April 05, 2006 05:19 pm |
| ASSAULT AIRPLANES: - Potez 63 B-2: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/346/213/0/1 - PZL 23 Karas B: Romanian pro-Axis markings: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/35/12/0/1 |
| Posted by: Agarici April 06, 2006 04:07 pm |
| OBSERVATION AND RECONAISSANCE: - IAR 37 (light bomber, observation): http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/o/319/12/0/8 - IAR 38 (observation-bomber) - Axis-type cammo and markings: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/o/319/12/0/12 http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/o/319/12/0/5 - IAR 39 (observation-bomber) - Axis-type cammo and markings: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/o/319/12/0/3 http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/o/319/12/0/6 - Bristol-Blenheim Mk. 1 (reconnaissance-bomber): British cammo, Axis markings, june 1941: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/50/12/0/3 |
| Posted by: sid guttridge April 07, 2006 12:19 pm |
| Hi Agarici, At least some of those drawings are illegal captures from French aircraft magazines. I imagine that their publication on the net is illegal as it deprives the artists and publishers of their rightful dues. Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge April 07, 2006 12:23 pm |
| Hi Guys, A war requires two sides. What was the orbat of the Hungarian air force in August 1940? Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Dénes April 07, 2006 12:35 pm | ||
Damn right. Other drawings were copied from other publications (including my books). If only the sources would be properly mentioned at least... Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Ruy Aballe April 10, 2006 01:04 pm |
| It is true. Several profiles were indeed copied from Dénes' book published by S. Signal. Btw, the P.23 "Karaś" B profile was pirated from T. Kopański and K. Sikora monograph on the P.23, published by AJ Press (Gdańsk, 1995). The rest of the profiles were scanned from issues of French periodicals "Avions" and "Airmagazine"... Ruy |
| Posted by: Agarici October 05, 2010 02:09 pm |
| Dear all, I have a new interrogation concerning the 7th Fighter Group and the number of Me 109 E in service in the Romanian Royal Aeronautics in June 1940. According to this site, that unit was created on June 1 1940, including the 53rd squadron (with Hawker Hurricane Mk. 1) and the 57th squadron (with Messerschmitt Me 109 E). As it is already known, 12 Hurricanes were delivered from UK in the end of 1939 in kits and assembled in Romania, and their number was to remain constant (in any case not increasing), unless after the fall of Yugoslavia to the Germans. But what about the Messerschmitts? According to both Istoria aviatiei romane (1984) - quoted by P. Out in Imbrăţişarea anacondei... - and Denes Bernard's Rumanian aces of World War 2 (2003), by June 1940 there were 20 Me 109 E in Romanian service. So, if the figure is accurate, were all those planes part of a single squadron - which would be quite unlikely, in my opinion? And another thing, when din the 53 squadron became independent? |
| Posted by: Agarici October 30, 2010 09:13 pm |
No info, no details... nobody?  |
| Posted by: MMM October 30, 2010 09:37 pm |
| As long as I don't have the exact figures, I'll refrain from making assumptions; but sometime next week I'll check some (other) documents I have. Until then, I have some new things to worry about: http://img545.imageshack.us/i/img0958large.jpg/ http://img213.imageshack.us/i/img0956large.jpg/ Mihai Jr. appeared on this world on 16.10 and in my home on 22.10! Since then, some things changed - some for better... |
| Posted by: Agarici October 30, 2010 11:47 pm |
| Ha-ha, congratulations, and God bless him! You must be one proud and happy father.  |
| Posted by: Victor October 31, 2010 08:16 pm | ||
Sorry for the late reply. I completely forgot about this topic. There were 11 Bf-109Es in June 1940 (see Air Mag Hors Serie no. 1 - Les Bf 109 roumains). After the remaining 39 Bf-109Es ordered were delivered in February 1941, the 7th Fighter Group was reorganized to include the two new Bf-109 squadrons. That is probably when the 53rd Fighter Squadron became independent. PS: Congratulations MMM! |
| Posted by: Agarici November 08, 2010 02:51 pm | ||||
Thanks a lot, Victor! But, does the French magazine specify any documentary source for that? Because if it doesn't, as I see it, we have a version in two sources and another one in a third. I can also imagine that both "Istoria aviatiei romane..." and D. Bernard had a documentary backing for the figure used. Denes, any oppinion or suggestion on that? |
| Posted by: Victor November 08, 2010 03:52 pm |
| The author of the French text is Vasile Tudor AFAIK. He has good access to the archives in Pitesti. |
| Posted by: Dénes November 08, 2010 09:58 pm | ||
I am in France right now, have no access to my files. However, whatever I wrote in my book is certainly backed-up by documents. I will try to reply on this coming week-end. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Florin November 11, 2010 06:05 pm |
| So, after reading the lists with airplanes shown in this topic, I understand that no I.A.R.-80 were available in August 1940. Quite a surprise to me, knowing that the prototype flew more than one year earlier. I learned something here... |
| Posted by: MMM November 11, 2010 08:22 pm |
| Well, this is a "common" mistake! Some weeks ago, while presenting some stuff I've written for my thesis, a (very old) professor told me (I quote from memory) "we had some of the best / most performant fighters at the beginning of the war", and I replied to him that the numbers of such planes in the RoAF of that time (1939-1940-1941) were very small, at which he was quite surprised; fortunately, I could byck up my affirmations with documents... |
| Posted by: Dénes November 11, 2010 09:10 pm | ||
The first order was placed by MAM with the I.A.R. Works only in December 1939. The first 20 aircraft reached their units (Esc. 59 and 60 van. of the newly created Gr. 8 van, assigned under command of Flot. 2 van.) in Febr. 1941. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Agarici November 13, 2010 09:56 am | ||||
OK, but, according to Denes Bernard, Romanian Aces of World War 2 (2003), page 9: “On 12 August 1939, the influx of Western-built aircraft meant that the ARR had 121 combat-ready fighters. Besides the Polish gull-winged PZL P.11s and P.24s, which still formed the mainstay of the ARR’s fighter force, the inventory also included the first He 112s and Hurricanes. By the following June, when the war had been raging in Europe for more than nine months, 122 fighters were among the total of 587 frontline aircraft. This number comprised 30 PZL P.24 Es, 30 He 112 Bs, 20 Bf 109 Es and 12 Hurricanes, together with 30 IAR 80s of indigenous manufacture. However, the latter type had not actually been delivered because the first batch was still undergoing acceptance testing at the factory. So, apart from the latest Bf 109 Es, the most noticeable difference compared to the previous year’s line-up was that the obsolescent IAR-built PZL P.11 B/Fs were no longer listed as being in the frontline service. This meant that by mid-1940 all tha ARR’s main fighter squadrons were equipped with modern equipment.” So using this source it appears that 30 IARs were completed and undergoing tests by June 1940, and in case of emergency could had been pressed quickly into action. This is an important info in my opinion, since by that time the Soviets had no similar airplane in their inventory, and ~ 30 IAR 80s in plus on the Romanian side on the “Eastern front” could had made a difference. |
| Posted by: Dénes November 13, 2010 01:08 pm |
| Yes, your assumption is correct. However, as stated, those 30 I.A.R. 80s were still undergoing factory tests in August 1940, so it is unclear how quickly could they be impressed into combat service, ready for action. I would note that the Soviet A.F. did have aircraft types comparable to the I.A.R. 80 in the Summer of 1940 (what they called 'modern types') - albeit in small numbers only. I refer here mainly to the in-line fighters, notably the Yak-1 (albeit, the first deliveries happened only in late 1940, AFAIK). Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Agarici November 14, 2010 10:00 am |
| Thank you for your answer, Denes! I think the picture is a little bit clearer now. But what about those 20 (vs. 11) Bf. 109 Es? If they were already delivered, I think the 7th Fighter Group must have had two 109 squadrons by that time, and perhaps 53rd squadron (with the Hurricanes) was already independent. I would say that, although significantly weaker, especially number-wise (and it wasn't at all my purpose to challenge that), ARR wasn't at all defenseless in June 1940, facing the VVS. The sintagm use by A. Calinescu in his notes at a certain point in 1939, that the planes in service with the Romanian military aeronautics were "vechi si proaste" (old and useless), and taken from him by some political and military top figures in 1940, was clearly an understatement of the real situation. |