Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format |
WorldWar2.ro Forum > The Interwar Period (1920-1940) > Well made film |
Posted by: C-2 February 06, 2011 07:17 am |
http://roncea.ro/2010/10/28/un-documentar-cutremurator-a-fost-odata-in-transilvania-marturii-si-filmari-despre-atrocitatile-maghiare-la-ocuparea-ardealului-video/ |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 06, 2011 09:02 pm |
God rest in Peace on those who were killed innocent! God forgive the killers who have stained their hands and hearts for ever to these atrocities! God comfort these people who had endured a lifetime the memory of the close ones so brutally murdered! God forgive us and keep us away from Evil! Just can't say anything else... |
Posted by: 21 inf February 07, 2011 03:53 pm |
Maybe God will forgive those who killed with cold blood inocent women and children, as those who could did such horible crimes are not humans and they deserve no mercy and no excuses. Regardless of their nationality they are rabbied dogs. Let's protect our future by not promoting extremism and God will also help us! The people speaking are from Trăznea and from Ip, Sălaj county. They are telling the truth. My grandfather, one of the only six romanian survivors from Ip, told me the story himself. His wife and 7 years little girl were killed in the night of 13/14 september 1940 at Ip. He, aged 80, passed to my father and to me exactly the same legacy that the people from the movie told: "Do not forget!" He never in his life asked for revenge against the killers. He died in 1987, aged 87, in the same house were his wife and little girl was killed and he is buried few meters away from them, at Ip cemetery. I'll pass to my son, Horea, the same legacy left by my grandfather: "Do not forget!" and as my grandfather, I will tell him not to revenge. |
Posted by: Dénes February 07, 2011 07:52 pm |
I was waiting this film to pop up here, too, sooner or later. I see, eventually it did. I have seen it earlier, and I must tell that unfortunately this is not a documentary, as it purportedly is, but rather a very professionally made artistic movie, with clear tendencies to politicize the tragic events that have actually happened in Ip, without the goal to find out the actual, complete historical background. There are several issues, which make the movie one-sided and subject to doubt as what was its real purpose. For example: - why weren't any Hungarians interviewed? After all, the village was not a purely Rumanian one, but with mixed population. There were local Hungarians who also witnessed the events. - why weren't the names and the age of the interviewed persons given? This way, we could see if they actually witnessed the tragic events, or they have heard about it as an oral history? - why weren’t any Hungarian historians interviewed (only Rumanian ones), to offer a chance to the viewer to see the same events from the other side, too, thus to have a more balanced view? Also, there are a few details, which are clearly distorted, or not spoken about. Namely, why was the population of this particular village decimated (along with the nearby Trasnea), with dozens of civilians killed in cold blood, and not the over one thousand other localities in Northern Transylvania, ceded to Hungary in August 1940? It is also said that the Hungarian soldiers started the killings unprovoked, which is not true. In this era of information flow, even a casual search of the internet, lasting a couple of minutes by a person with passing knowledge of Hungarian, would yield several sources, which give answers to these key questions. One such study is this one, written by a noted young Hungarian historian, Péter Illésfalvi, where he also discusses the atrocities committed by Hungarian soldiers against local Rumanian population, placed in the general context of the events: www.hungarianarmedforces.com/kapcsolat.doc Or, this study is focusing particularly on the aforementioned atrocities: http://adatbank.transindex.ro/html/cim_pdf948.pdf , see ‘Szilágyipp és környéke’ Chapter In this article, based on archival documents, it is clearly stated that the Hungarian troops were shot at from the local church’s tower with a machine gun, even the name of the sniper, Victor Chifor, being given. Also, the main person guilty of the atrocities that happened after this - which were not justified by any means - is clearly identified, namely company commander főhadnagy Bedő Zsolt (1st Lt. Zsolt Bedő). During these cold blooded killings, a total of 157 local persons were indeed killed, including elderly, women and children. After these killings, the Hungarian troops left the village, taking with them the captured machine gun as proof. It is also stated in the quoted text that the events were investigated by the military authorities, but – shamefully - the conclusion was that the killings were justified due to the generally hostile environment and the sniping. Thus, Lt. Bedő was let go free from jail. Perhaps 21inf can translate some excerpts from these studies, so all of us would have a clearer and more balanced view of those tragic events, a task for which the mentioned artistic movie unfortunately did not live up to. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 07, 2011 09:31 pm |
It is just too painfull for me to continue this discussion, I'll just put a fragment of a poem from 1940 which reflects the emptiness and great sorrow I feel after remembering all this horible things. I am not ashamed to recognise that I painfully cried with those 2 survivors from Ip from the movie, as I know one of them. I spent a part of my childhood in the house were those killings happened....................... În pădurea de la Ip Nu auzi cirip-cirip, Numai vântul hăulind, Oase de români jelind, Ce tot cheamă şi blesteamă... |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 07, 2011 10:07 pm |
@21inf, Sincere condolences to you, your family and all the survivors of this heinous crimes! I share your message which is sent also by the Holocaust survivors : forgive but not forget! For the purpose that something like this not ever happen again! @Denes A crime can never have any excuse anywhere! -Even if it were just one innocent victim of murder is still murder! And in the case of a massacre, like this one, it's no longer appropriate to talk -only to grieve what happened and swear, all of us, that something like this never ever happen again! |
Posted by: Dénes February 08, 2011 05:21 am |
21inf, your grief is totally justified and humane. I am also personally deeply sorry for what has happened to the innocents. My above words were directed solely to the film and its shortcomings. I don't intend to tackle the topic any longer. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 08, 2011 06:25 pm |
@ Denes: Thanks for understanding. I know that you didnt wanted to hurt me and your post was only to clarify some things. I was just too troubled last evening remembering all this old memories. @ others: Hungarian army was already very stressed that romanian civilians will fight them. I dont know why they were so. In the link Denes provided above, the hungarian sources state that in Ip a horse drawn wagon exploded. In that moments hungarian military believed that romanian civilians atacked them and arested four romanian villagers acused for the atack. They were released later, but in the first moments, romanian sources state that hungarian army wanted to revenge imediately upon romanian civilians. Later it was found by hungarian army that the wagon exploded by the fault of the soldier driving it, it was loaded with ammo which was improperly stored. In any romanian source, including my grandfather memoirs, no one speaks about Victor Chifor, so I dont know if the incident is real. In Ip the massacre was organised after 6 september 1940 by Farago baron, local landlord from Ip and hungarian ethnics from the village. Reunions were held in his mannor, nowadays transformed in kindergarten. The hungarian mailman from Ip was in charge to count each romanian from each house, in order no one can escape massacre. That's why the killings took so many victims, almost entire romanian population from the village. Only 6 romanians managed to escape that night of 13/14 september 1940. What the survivors form Trăznea said in the movie was true. A machinegun fire was heard outside village and after that massacre begin. Romanian sources says that it was fired by hungarian army to provide a pretext for the killings. I found this kind of pretext in many romanian villages where hungarian army entered in 1940 in Transylvania. Romanian sources state the case of a girl, daughter of a romanian priest from a village, shot dead by hungarian army and put in front of the church, with a machine gun in hand, to look like a partisan who shot upon hungarian army. Romanian eyewitness says she was inocent. (I cant cite the book or names cos I'm citing from memory as I dont have the books available right now). The episode of a romanian officer crossing the Vienna Diktat border is true, I found it in many other romanian books citing survivors from Trăznea. There were killings in many villages and towns in Transylvania, but none so complete as in Ip and Trăznea. Maybe in other places were no such radicals as Farago baron as in Ip. I dont know why was like this in Trăznea. There were also hungarians saving their romanian neighbours during masacres and killings. I have to cite the hungarian neighbour of my grandpa who saved him when the killers went into his yard for the first time. When they came second time, the good hungarian neighbour was not there and they killed the two inocents. Grandpa escaped runing. Another case, a must to rememebered, is a hungarian mayor from a nearby mixt village. After Ip massacre, he heard what happened there. A hungarian army platoon marched toward his isolated village. He went in it's way asking the oficer why he is driving his men into his village. Answer was "to protect hungarian ethnics from romanians". The hungarian mayor asked the oficer to turn back, as in his village romanian and hungarian are good neighbours and need no army protection. Everyone is convinced that if honveds entered village, the same would happened as in Ip. The mayor remained in his post as late as 1960's or 70's when he died respected by both romanians and hungarians. A romanian eyewitness from another village from Sălaj county, which I saw filmed some years ago, says that in his mixt village hungarian civilians asked hungarian army oficer in charge with order in the village what they have to do with romanian ethnics: shoot them? The hungarian army oficer forbided this thing and nobody was killed. The eyewitness I speak about was demobilised from romanian army and just arived home. He was hunted in his village by hungarians soldiers who wanted to kill him, so he had to hide for a while. On his way back from romanian army to his village he was almost twice shot by hungarian honveds because he speak to them in hungarian language. This kind of atitude I also readed in other cases too, even if I cant understand why they wanted to shoot romanians speaking hungarian language. After a while, he was sent to Budapest to work in factory, forced labour. I dont give the name of this eyewitness and his village as I am not entitled to do so. I also know who is the survivor from Ip speaking in the movie, but as they didnt gave away his name, I feel that I'm also not entitled to present it. The movie above might be a "lucrare de diploma" of some students from romanian film academy, as I saw some similar movies in last year, even not with exactly the same subject. |
Posted by: 21 inf February 08, 2011 07:51 pm |
Killings of civilian happened in any military conflict, had they having weapons or not. It happened to russians, poles and czechs in ww2, to vietnamese in Indochina and later Vietnam war, to ex-yugoslavian citisens and examples could continue to forever. Sometimes civilians were killed cos they had weapons, sometimes because they didnt had. Sumarising, war is hell and creation of sick minds, so it would be better if every politician from the World think well his moves, not to bring another damn war upon us. Common citisens is better to think more and with better quality, not to allow the unproper politician to take the power somewhere and to start another war, being it local or worldwide. Unfortunatelly, hidrogen and fools are the most often found on this planet. |
Posted by: Agarici February 09, 2011 02:24 am | ||||
The anexation of Transylvania in 1940 wasn’t overwhelmingly peaceful. The tightly censored Romanian press of the time, through which the authorities had (at least) the visible interest to minimize their foreign policy failure by minimizing the consequences of the “diktat”, was full of the accounts of those abuses and atrocities. Their impact shouldn’t be neglected, and the “thesis” denying them, or saying that they were justified is not a new one. As a side question, could anything justify the mass killing of innocent/civilian women and children? Perhaps Aurel Munteanu, the priest from Huedin tortured to death by several Hungarian civilians on the street, in broad daylight (an episode which, because of its shocking and hard to believe details, I would label as one of the most gruesome occurrences from the history of torture of WW 2, a history with a not at all scarce list of such events), was guilty of provoking his murderers? We cannot talk about an overwhelmingly peaceful installation of the Hungarian/Horthyst administration exactly because of these facts. On the one hand the atrocities were, even if not a rule in term of numbers, outrageous and repulsive by themselves (ex. Ip, Trăsnea, the brutal murdering of Aurel Munteanu, etc). On the other hand the abuses were quite widespread (ex. one of my grandfathers, a quite well-of peasant from an area near Dej, not involved into politics, was “only” beaten and threatened/intimidated in order to accept the administrative change of his name/"magyarisation" from Vasile to Ladislau - and he was not an exception in his village; perhaps it was thought to be a good thing if he and some of the “gospodarii satului” would became, overnight, Hungarian - at least for the statistics). I mention the latter episode "en passant" only, because it was told by him to me when I was a child, in a without grudge and jokingly “Stan Păţitul”-like manner - like in the jokes with Transylvanians/ardeleni. Now of course I didn’t search for any witness from the “Hungarian side” - in order not to be biased or to counter-check his story - nor do I care about the possible macro-explanation or justification of a Hungarian historian about this fact. Maybe that’s why someone from that site, more or less educated, mention his/her suspicion towards a “magyarised” education law. Because more and more people fear the fact that, as some Hungarian leaders (holding administrative offices) from Harkov made a rule/habit in the last few years from publicly displaying some Hungarian private organizations’ symbols or the Hungarian national flag on the public buildings (in spite and against the laws, and in defiance of the requests of the Romanian minority living in those counties), the official history learn in Romania in Hungarian language by the Hungarian children could became an equivalent of the collection of Revisionist and negationist myths circulated by some Hungarian politicians and self-styled historians. Remember the so-called “documentary movie” “Trianon”? I think that some fear, perhaps with some substance, that a collection of that sort of clichees could become a substitute for the history learned in school. And because they do not agree with the double standards in Romanian-Hungarian relations. As an example, on the one hand, the ethnic Hungarians from Romania can celebrate, from years now and in a normal environment, the all-Hungarian national holyday. Sometimes the Romanian officials (such as the president) send them public and official greetings on that occasion. On the other hand, the UDMR/RMDS leaders, members of the governing coalition(s) from 2000 onwards, boycott on a regular basis the Romanian national holydays. Hear and then, in their absence, they sent a "coroana de flori". When in last December a public building (the Hungarian National Theater main hall in Budapest) was subcontracted by the institution manager (in exchange for a sum money) to the Romanian embassy in order to celebrate the national day (December 1), the episode was considered a scandal, a defiance - a “lack of sensitivity for Hungary’s loss” (!) - the manager was labeled as sort of a traitor so the deal had to be called off and the poor fellow to apologize publicly. It is indeed very comfortable to be non-conformist, anti-nationalist, “sine ira et studio” and open-minded - and to take all the details into account - when it suits us… |
Posted by: SATHOR February 09, 2011 09:41 am |
Hello, can somebody give us an example or more if there are, with Romanian army doing this kind of "things" to Hungarian minorities during ww II? I'm curious to find out if this problem happent in both sides or just to Romanians. Another story, Hungarian languadge is not so common and probably there are not so many Hungarian speackers and i mean no more than Hungarian's and few which are interested in it's culture or have something to do with it, so there are not to many outsiders who can clarifie if Hungarian authorities or historians saying are true or not. When a human is accused about something like this, he start to defend it self in differnet ways, he start to lie in the first moment and to invent things or circumstances favorable to him, but when is about a country, who is accused about this ..... i can say or write whatever i want to look more ...nice, so the witness testimonies in this chase are important. Why the Hunagrians dont come in front and defend the motherland of such acuse...? whit witness also, i think there are at leas 2 soldiers who escape the war and are still alive. One thing i am half Hungarian, half Romanian, for me this problems are stil open wounds on both sides, especially when my roots are from Bobalna/Cluj-N. county and my Romanian grandfather was involved in this kind of "thing's" and one the other hand a cousin of my grandgrand mother from Hungarian side was a general in Hungarian army..... and who know's which other relatives of my Hunagrian side deed in those time. In the end, one thing is good, i am the results of a mixed familly ![]() |
Posted by: C-2 February 09, 2011 12:17 pm |
Denes , This forum is about war in particular. If we can post a link to a movie like the "Portret of a fighter..." I don't see any harm about links to any other film who treats resonably a war subject. That's as long as we learn from mistakes and get wise. |
Posted by: 21 inf February 09, 2011 07:29 pm |
SATHOR, no such events as in Ip and Trăznea happened to hungarian ethnics from the part of romanians in ww2, I mean not so extensive. Some hungarian ethnics were killed by romanians, military or civilians, in 1944 and 1945. The cases were either isolated or little groups, up to 5 or 6 individuals, were killed, all men as far as I know. The cases I know were civilian hungarians from Transylvanian villages acused by romanians that they helped hungarian army or they turned in romanian civilians who helped romanian army and those romanians were killed by honveds. It was a unfortunate situation "eye for eye". I am sure there are enough romanians speaking hungarian and enough hungarians speaking romanian in order that each side read or listen what the other side have to say. Maybe they are not prepared yet, psichologically, to speak to each other, or they lack the capacity to do so, yet. I saw some years ago a hungarian documentary about romanian war crimes in 1944 in the counties from central Transylvania, mostly inhabited by szeklers. I was horipiled to see this documentary, with old hungarian men and women speaking and crying in the same manner as the romanians from the linked movie above. The grief and the tears were the same as of romanians. Those old hungarian men and women said that the killers were romanians, mostly inmates (puşcăriaşi, deţinuţi), freed from prisons, and that they belong to Maniu Guards. I know nothing about Maniu Guards and who were they. I also dont know if the hungarians massacred by those so called inmates were guilty of something or they were inocents. Even if they were guilty of something, the horible things described by those elders, were far too cruel and too savage. Let's hope that nothing such this will ever happen again! |
Posted by: Dénes February 09, 2011 08:32 pm |
Gentlemen, let's not highjack this thread, which suppose to deal with gun control and the movie C-2 posted in supporting this topic. All threads regarding Hungarian and Rumanian atrocities against civilians should be moved to the already existing thread, where many of the details have already been discusses and detailed: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&hl=crimes&st=0 Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 09, 2011 09:02 pm |
Ok, Denes, you are right, a lot of discussions here are now off-topic. |
Posted by: Amicus_Plato February 10, 2011 06:37 pm | ||
Agarici, I am a Romanian citizen of mixed ethnicity, fully dedicated to Romania. My father is Romanian, my mother is of Jewish, German, Greek and Aromanian ancestry. In the day when the Iasi pogrom started, my Jewish grandfather and his father were arrested only after the sunset and just beaten, so they escaped the shootings, but the next day they had to bury half of my grandfather's former highschool colleagues (no joking!!!). The pretext was that the Jews signaled by lights to the Soviet planes. No need to tell you that few of the dead really did any politics, the less other things. As I dislike the double measure which Magyar propaganda uses (Horthy was good, just a nostalgic of former Austria-Hungary, as he writes in his Memories, it was the Nyilaskeresztes Párt who were bad, but those didn't appertain to Hungarian spirit, whilst we, the true Hungarians, always suffered atrocities and are wronged by others - by the way, Denes, one of the most stupid things I found in that Magyar propaganda is that Hungarians from Romania - I quote almost literally - had to Romanianize their names during the Ceausescu's times), so I dislike the double measure when used by any others. Measure all the things with the same measure. |
Posted by: Victor February 11, 2011 06:16 pm |
The discussion has wandered wildly of topic. There is already a thread about Gun control. Take the discussion there. |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 11, 2011 10:18 pm |
http://www.maftei.ro/revista/2005/cronica-cornelia-cedarea-ardealului.shtml Cornelia Marusca about the territorial cession of Northern Transylvania The questions that haunt me are : Why nobody (military or civilian) set up an armed resistance movement in Northern Transylvania? Why was our army so disciplined and fully withdrawn as agreed with the occupants? Why no Romanian general had made a gesture of honor (resignation from the Army) after such a national catastrophe? |
Posted by: Dénes February 12, 2011 07:09 am | ||
Where was this city, Odorhei, located? Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Dénes February 12, 2011 07:12 am | ||||
The answer was already given by Dragos two pages earlier: had some civilians resisted the entrance of Hungarian troops in Northern Transylvania, there would have been bloodbath in many Rumanian-inhabited villages, just like in Ip (discussed earlier). It made no sense at all, and would have brought only grief and sorrow to many families.
This question is pointless. The army simply followed orders and made no politics. Otherwise, it would not have been an army, but a bunch of armed persons, wearing the same uniform, but acting as civilians. By the way, the Hungarian soldiers were "occupants" only for a part of the population of Northern Transylvania, for the other part they were "liberators". This fact should not be overviewed by anyone wanting to have a balanced picture of those events. That's why I believe the best is to call them what they were, Hungarian soldiers, or Honvéds, without any negative or positive connotation. If one wants to stay neutral, or course. Gen. Dénes P.S. These questions do not fit this thread. Admin., can you move it to the proper location? |
Posted by: 21 inf February 12, 2011 08:34 am |
The part of population who saw honveds as ocupants was almost 50%-50% as the one who see them as liberators. And those who see honveds as liberators were not only hungarians from Transylvania, but also jews, and who knows, maybe other minor ethnicities from Transylvania. |
Posted by: MMM February 12, 2011 08:44 am | ||
Difficult questions, but I have to point out that many soldiers and officers commited acts of "indiscipline" during the retreat; on the whole, the Army did not want to withdraw and one of the reasons Antonescu was entrusted with the power was that he could be listened when commanding the retreat; btw, almst everybody regarded this retreat as temporary... My source is Mr. Otu's book, http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5216. |
Posted by: Dénes February 12, 2011 08:46 am | ||
21inf, since there was no census done in August 1940 in the disputed territory, there are no hard figures on the exact and true ethnic division of the area. Rumanian calculations (based on a census done almost ten years earlier) show a slim Rumanian majority, while the Hungarian census of 1941 (following a shuffle in population after the Vienna Resolution) shows a slim Hungarian majority. Therefore, there is no hard proof of who were the majority ethnic population in the area. Moreover, not all Rumanians regarded the Hungarian administration as "occupation", and the behaviour of other ethnic minorities (and not minor ethnicities, as you said) was often ambivalent, making the actual and true picture more diffuse. That's why I avoided referring to this uncertain issue, and used a general term: "part of population". Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Dénes February 12, 2011 08:53 am | ||
Gen. Antonescu rose to power and became the Conducator on 6 Sept., while the retreat of Rumanian troops and administration from the ceded territory started earlier, on 1 Sept. 1940. BTW, ironically, the Hungarians also regarded this move as temporary [so you were right in your statement ![]() Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Hadrian February 12, 2011 09:04 am |
And maybe some Transylvanian saxons regarded all this movements as temporary and were thinking about Sudetenland... ![]() |
Posted by: dragos February 12, 2011 10:46 am |
Since the topic was mixed 50%-50% with gun control and the massacre, I decided to move all the gun control posts in their proper topic in General Discussion: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5352&st=90entry79754 |
Posted by: 21 inf February 12, 2011 12:17 pm | ||||
Yes, Denes, you are right. That's why I didnt said that the majority of population was romanian in ceded teritory. I know both romanian and hungarian evaluation of population in ceded teritory in 1940, that's why I gave 50-50 percent. My expresion of minor ethinicities was due to the fact that I am not a native english speaker. I meant what you corected, ethnic minorities. To be honest, I doubt that the percent of romanians who didnt see hungarian take-over as an ocupation was significant, as was surely not significant the percent of hungarian seeing the romanian take-over in 1944 in the same manner. Most of the urban romanian population in Transylvania was frightened by the hungarians, while most of the rural romanian population regarded the 1940 take-over with fear mixed with the atitude "it will pass" (o să treacă şi asta). The father of my father-in-law was working as employee (kisbiro, chişbirău) of the local mayor in a village from Transylvania in 1940. He spoke excellent hungarian (he was romanian) and also hebrew, as there were a significant number of hebrews in their village. When hungarian administration come in his village, hungarian gendarmes in charged with the census of the population entered their house either. They asked the head of the family to declare their nationality and as the father of my father-in-law spoke so good hungarian, he declared himself hungarian. My father-in-law, a teenager at that time, was able only to understand hungarian language, not to speak it, and when asked, he declared himslef also hungarian, with his name Togyer instead of romanian Toader, being the few words he spoke in hungarian. Interesting is that their family name was not asked to be declared magyarised, it was left pure romanian! He was given so to hungarian school in the village and after 4 years he was still in the 4th grade, even if he had more years as he normaly used to had in the 4th grade. I asked him why he didnt passed the first classes and he said to me that he was not interested to learn hungarian and in hungarian language. He knew that he was romanian and he declared himself hungarian only because at the hungarian school the food was better. When romanian troops liberated his village, he instantly forget about hungarians and openly helped the romanian troops. |
Posted by: Agarici February 12, 2011 12:38 pm | ||||||
I agree with Denes on all the accounts mentioned, with two observations: 1. There are consistent and convergent indications that the Ip massacre was a civilian mass killing, full stop. From what I red until now (including references to the Hungarian "official" version), the "justification" with a (as in "one person") Romanian sniper opening fire on the Hungarian columns from the church tower seem at least as illogical as the Natzi set-up with the Polish attacking the German Gleiwitz radio in 1939. Secondlly, a oficial justifications presented by the perpetrators which nevertheless killed inocent women and children, and whose superiors pardoned the officer found responsible, worth nothing to me. It's first of all a matter of principle, something like asking the guards and the executioners from a extermination camp about their justifications, after they exterminated the people. Honestlly, I'm not interested in Ip killers post-factum justifications, and I will not go as far with my tollerance as considering them reasons for action. From what I remember, there must had been a German-Italian comision charged with supervising the "adminstrative transition" and the first stages of the installment of a Hungarian administration in the NV Transylvania after its cession. That comission was bombarded with complains made by the Romanian authorities (and the civilian population?). Did it make any official inquiry in the Ip and Trasnea cases? 2. I find the ideea, presented by Denes in a subseqvent post, that some of the ethnic Romanians did not regarded the Hungarian Honvedseg as occupants (implying that they were perhaps seen as liberators) as completelly irrelavant and void of any sense. If there were such isolated individuals, what was their representativity for the mass of the Romanian population? Do you know of any Romanian socially or politically articulated group which subscribed to the Wienna diktate? What I can assure you, as a person with direct (and collateral) ancestors in that area (some of them married in mixed Hungarian-Romanian families), and form multiple oral history sources, is that the collective recollection of the Hungarian field gendarmes "jandarmii cu pana de cocos" from 1940-1944 was not at all a positive one, since they were rather fearfully associated with a brutal and sometimes abussive force, and not at all with the law and order of a state. |
Posted by: Dénes February 12, 2011 12:39 pm | ||||
I agree with you.
That's a normal behaviour, fully understandable. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Agarici February 12, 2011 01:06 pm | ||||
Amicus_Plato, I'm taking the liberty to quote myself, from an older post (2005) in a quite heated topic ( http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&hl=crimes&st=120 ) "[It is possible that] you didn’t understand... what I was trying to say. I was implying any such reality, not only the abuses of the Hungarians in North-Western Transylvania. I had in mind the deportation of Gypsies by the Romanians during WW2, and the executions which occurred during the reinstauration of Romanian administration in Bassarabia, in 1941." I hope my point is clearer now. My stance on this issue is unchanged. |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 12, 2011 06:51 pm | ||
Hallo Denes, because I don't see you as being a naive, I am sure you understand what I wanted to say : an army as the romanian, hungarian or bulgarian f.i. can not serve a country or a leader, but the nation who raise it! At least so was normal to be in the XX century, in Europe's small countries. In this logic of things my question isn't pointless, but fully motivated! A national army as the romanian was not only defend its territory but citizens also, and the example of the revolution of October 1956 in Hungary or December 1989 in Romania should be obvious! The army should be with her people not with the sometimes irresponsible leaders! Did the Hungarian army back in 1956 fraternized with the Soviet Troops and stayed with the traitors leaders (the part of them who called the Soviets) or fought alongside the people of Budapest? |
Posted by: contras February 13, 2011 12:07 am |
Romanian soldiers executed orders, and, they were sure they will return, because the war was iminent. I read and discussed with many veterans, all said the same. They were sure they'll come back. Another point is that Hungarian army respected advance graphics estabilished, and Romania and Hungarian army do not interfere (in Bassarabia and Bukovina, Soviets devansed Romanians, provoked them and were many incidents). Another point, to Romanians soldiers who were from nothern Transylvania were granted permissions to go to their homes. Anyway, were some incidents, one at Hidiseul de Jos (Bihor county), where shots occured. Incidents were on Eastern front, at leat at one occasion, when Romanian and Hungarian troops shouted one another when they exchanged positions. |
Posted by: Dénes February 13, 2011 09:49 pm | ||
No need to laugh. The Saxons from Transylvania did dream not of another Sudetenland (which was physically impossible, being far from Germany), but an autonomy, so they could handle their owen issues without much interference from the capital (be it either Budapest or Bucharest). Here, Saxons from a Northern Transylvanian village greet the entering Honvéd cyclists with the so-called 'German salute' (which had not much to do with the Nazi Party, being rather a fashinable form of salute among German ethnics). Photo taken by a Hungarian soldier of the cyclist unit in early September 1940. ![]() [Photo: Fortepan] Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Agarici February 13, 2011 10:31 pm | ||
Wasn't it rather/also "the Roman salute"? It also was the official salute adopted by the Romanian FRN/PN (Frontul Renaşterii Naţionale/Partidul Naţiunii - National Renaissance Front - The Nation's Party) from 1938 until September 1940. |
Posted by: Dénes February 14, 2011 08:30 am |
Agarici, you're right in both assumptions. Although - on what I've seen on photos - there was a difference between the angles how high the straight arm was lifted (if it means anything at all). Here is another photo of the same series, this time taken in a Hungarian village in Northern Transylvania (not the Seklerland, based on the national costumes): ![]() [Photo: Fortepan] Notice the plate with the word: Honvédség attached to the staff car's front bumper. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: Agarici February 14, 2011 09:33 pm |
Interesting photos, Denes! The only ones in colors from September 1940 in NV Transylvania (and among the few with the Hungarian Royal army) I’ve seen. Do you have more? ![]() |
Posted by: Hadrian February 15, 2011 11:25 pm |
The costumes could be also hungarian. I would think that the Sachsen would rather not see the hungarians as liberators. In 1848 they fought beside Avram Iancu against the hungarians (well, my presumption is that predominantly they wanted to be ruled by an emperor that could speak proper german ) ![]() http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Ludwig_Roth In 1872 they were taking actions to create an autonomous saxon region, but in 1876 the Budapest government disolved the Saxon Universität and started a magyarisation policy. So, in 1918 they voted for the union with Romania (the fact that the romanian King was a Hohenzollern might have helped). |
Posted by: Dénes February 16, 2011 06:25 am | ||
This is one of the major problems with such discussion forums. Even when one particular detail is clearly explained and even illustrated with a photo, which acts as a proof, someone still casts doubt, just for the sake of further stirring controversy (Gica contra). These villagers are Transylvanian Saxons. Their popular customes are Saxon. They do greet the Hungarian soldiers with the 'German salute' - as clearly explained (Hungarians did not use that form of salute). The rest of what you have written about the Saxons from Transylvania and their attitude against the HUngarians is also either not true, or only partially true. But this is off topic here. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: dead-cat February 16, 2011 03:18 pm | ||
concerning the more or less divided loyalties of the saxons or danube swabians during the '48 revolution, there is a proper thread in the "ancient and medieval" subforum to discuss this. |
Posted by: Hadrian February 16, 2011 04:42 pm |
My mother was a transylvanian Saxon from the Mediasch region. The costumes (die Tracht) are different from what I know, women`s headgears especially. But of course there were regional variations, even from village to village. The combination white shirt black vest is common in all Transylvania as you can see by comparing the two photos. If you compare the hungarian girl in foreground with the first saxon woman from the left (the one by the man in black suit) you can see that even the design of the vest (the decorations) are similar. ![]() That is why I told the costumes could be also hungarians or saxon, it is dificult to discern from the picture. Dénes, can you please tell if you have informations about the name of the village? |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 16, 2011 05:49 pm |
Hallo, Some weeks ago I had an interesting talk with a neighbor, 81 years old, Carol Z. (have no permission to say his family name) whose father joined the Waffen SS in late 1942 (so he said) in the CAVALRY SS DIVISION (probably the 8th SS Division called later Florian Geyer) on the eastern front and later in the Balkans. His family lived at that time in Arad (like he today), so even after 1940 in Romania (not in hungarian occupied territory like many saxons from Central Transylvania). He said that his father told him after the war (he survived the war, but with invalidity) that the worst moment was in autumn 1944 when he had to fight against the Romanian Army. He said to the family that a greater shame than this has never lived his entire life (shame to fight against the Romanians who were so good to him and his family) even if he was only a driver and mechanical maintenance sergeant on the Sturmgeschütz (my guess since Mr Carol said that his father work with the tanks of this division but as I know the division never had tanks only StuG-s). I don't exclude the possibility that Mr. Carol is trying to improve the image of his father, although his father was never persecuted by communists after 1945 (when he returned home), but I believe that he was ashamed to fight against the Romanians with his family living in Arad (so in Romania). He told that his German comrades from Hungary and Transylvania never really sympathize the Hungarians, unlike the Germans from the Reich who appreciate them very much, especially before march 1944. |
Posted by: 21 inf February 16, 2011 06:03 pm |
I think that only one photo of saxons from Transylvania greeting the hungarian army is not relevant to present the entire saxon population as seeing the hungarians as liberators. It is the same generalisation as let's say, for example, that in one photo a romanian soldier from ww2 was acompanied by a pet. Would be in this example the logical conclusion that romanian soldiers in ww2 were adopting pets? |
Posted by: Dénes February 16, 2011 07:05 pm | ||
I agree. However, even in worst case the Saxons were indifferent, but not hostile, towards the new administration. As for how Transylvanian Saxons regarded the Transylvanian Hungarians, that would also differ, I assume, from region to region, from village to village. I don't know how much the old Saxon person you've interviewed told you, a Rumanian, the entire story, and how much he hid, or 'enflowered'. What I can tell you is that my mother was born in a village called Teke (Teaca in Rumanian, Tekendorf in German), with mixed population - back then mainly Saxons, as well as Hungarians and Rumanians (nowadays the Saxons, the predominant ethnic group in the village, have practically vanished, they being replaced by Rumanians). She has only nice words to say about the Saxons and vice versa. We were often invited to two particular Saxon villager families, even in West-Germany after they've emigrated there in the early 1980s. Same with another Saxon family from Sibiu (Szeben/Hermannstadt), who even recently told my mother to visit them in Germany - all expenses paid. Dead-cat may have a more detailed input here. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 16, 2011 07:23 pm |
In 1848 also the saxons were not so anti-hungarian as their feelings developed later in the events. Even after saxons saw their requirements not being fulfilled by the revolutionary hungarian government, they didnt go so hostile against hungarians as the romanian from Transylvania did. In the mixed saxon-romanian villages I know in Transylvania, the feelings were not so sharp between these ethnics as in the case of mixed hungarian-romanian villages. It is posible that saxons didnt greeted hungarian army necesarily as liberator, but in any case saxons didnt went very sad about changing administrations. They were more probably enthusiastic-neutral than against. In other topic on this forum we debated the situation of hebrews from Transylvania, who were more enthusiastic when hungarian administration entered Transylvania in 1940 and that hebrews often regarded romanian administration as their opressor. I propose a delimitation like this between diferent main ethnics from Transylvania when hungarian administration enter this province in 1940: hungarians - fully enthusiastic; hebrews - fully or at least very enthusiastic; saxons - enthusiastic to neutral; gipsies - a posible level of enthusiasm to neutral; romanians - scared and against new hungarian administration. How do you agree on this, gentlemen? |
Posted by: dead-cat February 16, 2011 07:38 pm |
well, i'm not saxon, nor do i have any saxon relatives, so i couldn't tell. i'm from TM; the Banat is a different issue when it comes to the attitude vs. hungarians, even back in '48. |
Posted by: 21 inf February 16, 2011 07:48 pm |
Yes, the Banaters had a soft atitude toward hungarian revolution in 1848. Eftimie Murgu, the leader of Banat romanian 1848 revolution, had a mild atitude toward hungarian revolution and actually except the Lugoj gathering, there was no more sign of romanian revolution in Banat. The latter events in Banat regarding 1848 revolution were related to austrian army fighting hungarians. Eftimie Murgu was targeted by hungarian revolutionary leaders to be atracted on hungarian side. Some romanians claimed later that E Murgu had "sold himself" to hungarians and he was looked unreliable for the romanian cause. |
Posted by: Dénes February 16, 2011 07:48 pm |
I largely agree with your assumption, 21inf. However, the picture was not that black and white. For example, not all Rumanians were against the Hungarian troops and administration - at least at the beginning. As proof, here is a photo taken in my mother's native village, where a Rumanian boy (marked with a black arrow) can be seen greeting the Honvéds entering the village of Teke on 9 Sept. 1940. ![]() Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 16, 2011 07:53 pm |
I am sure that not all hungarians disagreed the come-back of romanian administration in 1944, but this doesnt change significantly the general overview of the feelings diferent ethnicities had toward each other. Anyway, a little boy could salute any soldiers, as he is a child and most probably doesnt make any diference between who are the soldiers entering his village. PS: how do you know that the pointed boy is romanian? He is not in national clothes (port popular). Do you know who he is? |
Posted by: Dénes February 16, 2011 07:59 pm | ||
My mother identified him as such, and I have no reasons to doubt her (he was caught by the camera by chance, there might have been more like him among the greeters lined up along the Nagyidai street, who knows?). And I am pretty sure he knew who those soldiers in strange looking uniform are... Just imagine, if he did something despicable to his fellow Rumanian ethnics by saluting the Hungarian troops, how would his peers look at him? Would he risk doing something for which he would have been outcast? When you're a youngster, peer pressure is paramount. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf February 16, 2011 08:41 pm |
Well, not all romanians were so ferocious anti-hungarian as not all hungarians were so deeply anti-romanian. There are individuals and individuals in all nations, from one extreme to the other extreme, having in the middle the main part of their conationals. My grandpa from Sălaj had nothing against hungarians and he had never spoke a bad word against them even after some hungarian elements killed his family. He was also initially saved by his old hungarian neighbour. Why he didnt spoke anything bad against those who killed his family, I cant figure out. Why he didnt joined romanian army to fight back hungarians after loosing his family to them, I also dont know. Why he never hunted down those who killed his family (he knew them by their names, as they were his neighbours) I dont know. I know just that he kept living a humble life as a poor iliterate peasant. |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 16, 2011 08:45 pm |
I think it is time to tell what our history teacher from high school, a person which was known by common sense, moderate attitudes and and tolerance, and who told us only once his memory about cession of Northern Transylvania in september 1940. He was then a child 7 years old (primary school) and and lived in Salonta, a city with a majority Hungarian population. He remembers with displeasure that he lost in a few days (end august) most of his pals he played with in the neighborhood, all Hungarians. Worse than that he was mocked and even hit by his former hungarian buddies he played with in the Kindergarten, and then he don't understand why... also remembered the family extreme fear not so much from the hungarian military administration but from the neighbors who became enemies over night... this aspect was something new for us and was was hard to find in the analysis or stories about that tragic events. |
Posted by: Hadrian February 16, 2011 08:49 pm |
Regarding the feelings of the Sachsen toward hungarians, here is a ballad published by a saxon from Kronstadt/Brasov in the interwar period, about the execution after a process simulation of Pastor Roth in Klausenburg/Cluj: http://www.sibiweb.de/ge_mu/slr_ball.htm Rather only in german. Tells about seckler guards with bayonets... Most of the perpetrators received a swift punishment by the hand of other germans (well, austrians) before an execution squad months later. Unfortunately, some (like Bem and Kosuth) got away by running. Nobody mess with the Sachsen... ![]() Anyway, in ww2, most of the saxons fought with the germans. One of the cousins of my mother did it also, returned from Russia only long years after the war. |
Posted by: ANDREAS February 16, 2011 08:58 pm |
I almost forgot to say that he was fluent in Hungarian, even as child, as his entire family was... so that this (language issue) can't be a reason. Then he said, he first heard the famous expression "budos olah" from his pals... He believes that the reason can be in the person of his father who was then a romanian teacher... |
Posted by: Hadrian February 16, 2011 09:22 pm |
Transylvania is an unique culture of mixed romanian, hungarian and german sources, a kind of Switzerland of the east. The place where one can eat a decent Sarmale, gulash (mmmh) and schnitzel, drink good wine, palincă or beer, with people living in peace for centuries, without caring about what language is spoken at home by his neighbour. I love it this way, and hope to remain so in the future. Unfortunately, from time to time, some frustrated politicians from outside Transylvania (be them from Budapest or Bucharest) choose to agitate the waters. Then, it is some, or all, of the transylvanians who have to suffer the consequences.... ![]() |
Posted by: dead-cat February 16, 2011 10:25 pm | ||
unfortunately without the Kanton structure. |
Posted by: Hadrian February 16, 2011 10:40 pm |
There were the Sieben Stuhle, as a model. It worked ok. ![]() |
Posted by: Agarici February 16, 2011 11:47 pm | ||||
I'd say that it is a mixture (as much as it is) especially because tha lack of a canton structure. But this is an entirely different story. |
Posted by: Agarici February 17, 2011 12:21 am | ||||
I think it is perfectly plausible that the boy was Romanian. My only observation, as already said earlier, is that this thing is irrelevant. In my opinion is that Denes theory with the despicable fact and the pressure from the peers is, in this case, built into thin air. We cannot expect such a precise and complex insight from some teenagers. Their perception, back then and at that age, wasn’t our perception from today, and not even that of their parents. What I think can be said is that they were in no way means inherently anti-Hungarian. In the meantime, they were too young/immature to have a solid political perception/interpretation of the reality. Not to mention the fact that the young kids (boys) are fascinated by soldiers, weapons, uniforms, the army and the like. An example: my father (5 years old in 1940) told me how he and his peers, mostly Romanians but Hungarians too, gather near the railway station from the small town of Năsăud when the trains with German troops moving towards the frontline were passing, giving the German/Nazi salute. The result: a shower of chocolates and candies, thrown by the soldiers from the train. But I do not think that made them (young) Nazi sympathizers. ![]() By the way, in/after 1940 my old man experience himself, for the first time, the same “famous” “budos olah” label. The somewhat strange thing was that he wasn’t called like that by his playing mates, but by some of their patents, after he/they did some of their childish goofs. |
Posted by: Agarici February 17, 2011 12:34 am | ||
Are the troops in the photo Hungarian? Then how come they (and the Hungarian civilians) are using the German (Roman?) salute, if it wasn't a common form of salute for the Hungarians? Couldn't they be Germans, passing through the village at a later date? Also, what type of truck/car is that? There is an inscription above the radiator, which I cannot see clearly. |
Posted by: Dénes February 17, 2011 06:49 am |
The soldiers are certainly Hungarian and the truck is a Hungarian-made Raba Botond (note the steering wheel located at right). The precise date and location is also known: 9 Sept. 1940, Nagyidai utca (street). The Hungarian soldier does not use the straight arm salute (which, by the way, was done with the right hand), he merely salutes the cheering crowd. Since Teke was predominantly a Saxon village, I assume the lady at right, with keys in her hand, was a Saxon - hence the 'German salute'. Gen. Dénes P.S. As for the "budos olah" pejorative, unfortunately that was used occasionally, I've also heard about that. Should I now mention the even more "famous" and widely used word of "bozgor", used by Rumanians against Hungarians, what I personally (not only my grandparents) "experienced" (the very first time in the army, and back then I wasn't even aware of its meaning)? ![]() There is no need for that, as stupid and incult people, easily influenced by daily politics, exist everywhere... |
Posted by: Victor February 17, 2011 07:17 am | ||
It's mostly Romanian and Hungarian now, as there aren't that many Germans left unfortunately. |
Posted by: Imperialist February 17, 2011 08:49 am | ||
You forgot to mention gypsies. |
Posted by: Agarici February 17, 2011 01:27 pm | ||
It is clear now, thanks. It should have been obvious for me too. I agree with your PS. |
Posted by: Florin March 03, 2011 05:33 am | ||
A slight difference exist, I think. While I am not aware for Romanian radio channels to use "bozgor" in their broadcasting, radio broadcasting from Hungary was using in 1939...1940 "budos olah" quite often. I agree with you that "stupid and incult people, easily influenced by daily politics, exist everywhere" on all sides, but when official radio channels lower themselves to this, it is actually like a slap over their face, not to their target. Now I got into this, instead of staying in sidelines. As I got involved, I have another one: There was a case of a pregnant Romanian woman being impelled through her uterus with a cart's pole by some Hungarians. It was mentioned in at least one Romanian book, and people may ask themselves if it was a true story. Not only it was real, but she happened to be the niece of Nazarica Balaneanu, who was the landlord of my grandparents and my mother when they were tenants in Zalau, Salaj county. I am optimistic regarding a common peaceful future for all nations belonging to the European Union, but I do not see anything wrong in remembering and reminding real things happening in the past. |
Posted by: Dénes March 03, 2011 06:33 am |
What's the point of your post, Florin? It is not related to the topic and only incites more hard feelings. I was happy that the thread finally died down, now it's on again... I am not knowledgeable of pre-war Hungarian radio broadcast, but I am sure there was anti-Hungarian propaganda broadcast by the Rumanian radio, too. Those were the times. Also, Rumanians committed crimes against Hungarian civilians both in 1918/1919 and 1944. These were all detailed in a separate thread. Please, stick to the topic and post only facts proven with documents, so we can debate them (if worthy of debate). Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: contras March 03, 2011 10:40 am | ||
Can you give me the thread, please? Thank you. |
Posted by: Dénes March 03, 2011 12:39 pm |
I gave it already earlier. Check the thread. Or, just do a search in topic titles, with keywords like rumanian/romanian and hungarian war crimes, attrocities, genocide, etc. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: C-2 March 03, 2011 09:25 pm |
And I was expecting to have some constructive talks about gun control....... |
Posted by: Hadrian March 03, 2011 10:44 pm |
Conclusion of the thread would be: don't allow guns, bad things will happen... ![]() Just joking. I think that all the issues touched are now things of the past, we are all now europeans. |
Posted by: Florin March 04, 2011 02:12 am | ||
I agree, now we are all European_. |
Posted by: C-2 March 04, 2011 06:59 am |
What I ment was the fact that if romanians had arms either the hungarian soldiers wouldn't do those acts or some fighting could take place. In bouth cases things were better:Romanians fighting for their lifes,hungarians couldn't be accused of killing unarmed civilians . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1geyoxeifk0 |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 04, 2011 10:59 pm | ||
If the defense of the natural ethnic borders of a nation (the romanian nation) can be interpreted as an anti-Hungarian propaganda, then of course you are right! So it was probably! ![]() |
Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2011 07:41 am |
Rumania's current western territorial limits are no natural or ethnic borders. The natural and ethnic borders of the Rumanian nation to the West is the Tisza/Tisa River (and the Dnestr to the East). Remember Eminescu? "De la Nistru pin' la Tisa, tot romanu plinsu mi-sa" (or similar, I quoted by heart). Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf March 05, 2011 08:18 am |
In the past some say that existed far more developed romanian comunities in some areas in the space between nowadays romanian west frontier and Tisa (Theiss), even if they were not such big and such numerous as in actual Transylvania, Banat and Crisana. This comunities participated to 1 December 1918 gathering from Alba Iulia ("din Transilvania, Crişana şi părţile ungureşti"). Today, they are almost vanished. I dont know if the myth of romanian frontier "până la Tisa" was actually true or it was only romanian propaganda. The idea of "romanian" Cadrilater I know it was a romanian myth, as Cadrilater was never romanian, even if it consisted some percent of romanian ethnics (small percent, and they might consider themselves not romanians, but aromanians or "machedoni"). For sure, Cadrilater was bulgarian province and romanians just took it in 1913 and developed the myth of it being romanian. A stupid propaganda, which has echoes even today. Some romanian consider Cadrilater as a lost romanian province and when I was in trip there, I heard a lot of romanians saying to bulgarians that they have to learn romanian, as Cadrilater was or is romanian soil. I was quite disturbed by this kind of atitude as I was thinking how my ancestors were forced to learn hungarian in Transylvania. On the same time, during other trips in Bulgarian Cadrilater, there were people aproaching us and speaking voluntarily to us in an old fashion and bad romanian. Asking them if they were romanians, they suddenly shut up and didnt answer, even their initial aproach was very friendly and open. They were most probably of romanian origin, but feared to declare so. |
Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2011 11:53 am | ||
You did not quote the proclamation properly. The actual quote is: "romanii din Transilvania, Banat si Tara Ungureasca". (Rumanians from Transylvania, Banat and The Hungarian Lands). The latter term (Hungarian Lands) actually referred to the area West of geographical Transylvania (i.e., beyond the Western Carpathian Mountains), most probably as far as the River Tisza/Tisa/Theiss. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf March 05, 2011 05:01 pm |
You are right, Denes, it was Tara Ungureasca. |
Posted by: Radub March 05, 2011 05:13 pm | ||
The whole of Dobruja used to be part of Bulgaria until 1877, not just the Cadrilater. As for "Aromanian"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians This is very interesting and enlightening reading, especially the etymology of the name "Aromanian". Remember the other thread about "Rumelia" as the "Land of Romans"? This ties in quite neatly. Radu |
Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2011 05:40 pm | ||
Now, the main question is: how far this "Tara Ungureasca" span, in view of the 1918 December events (taking into consideration that Rumania's current Western borders were arbitrarily traced by the Entente Powers at the Trianon Peace Treaty of 1920)? |
Posted by: 21 inf March 05, 2011 06:58 pm |
I personally dont know what Tara Ungureasca use to mean. The western border of Romania was drawn in 1920 by Allies in conection with the railway which crossed the Crisana Plain from north to south and in Banat giving to serbians 1/3 of Banat. Romanians asked for more than that but were not given. |
Posted by: Dénes March 05, 2011 08:00 pm |
I also don't have a reliable confirmation on how large "Tara Ungureasca" actually was. I checked Enciclopedia României, but found nothing. Perhaps this title by the renowned historian Nicolae Iorga could shed a light on the issue: 'Neamul romanesc in Ardeal si Tara Ungureasca la 1906'. Has anyone read it? Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 05, 2011 10:07 pm | ||
Fortunately for us never! Bulgaria does not exist as a state before 1878, only as an ottoman province (and even this province did not include the entire future bulgarian country, only the eastern part with Dobrogea included). I mentioned this in order to discourage the stupid ideas of some Bulgarian revisionists which even today claim Dobrogea as old bulgarian land (no matter how embarrassing it sounds ![]() |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 05, 2011 10:45 pm | ||
According to the book "Granita de vest" ("The western border") written by Stefan Manciulea and published by Tipografia Seminarului Teologic Greco-catolic, Blaj, 1936, the name "Tara Ungureasca" was given to the territory known in the Middle Ages as "Partium". There are no further details on territorial delimitation of this land but we can get an idea about how large it was. |
Posted by: 21 inf March 06, 2011 06:10 am |
It is true that Dobrogea was never part of Bulgaria. Before 1877 Bulgaria didnt even existed, it was just a otoman province. This kind of affirmation that Dobrogea was part of Bulgaria until 1877 show a "great" knowledge of era's history and is unusefull and damaging. Today, the bulgarians are teached at school that russians freed them from turks in 1878. The romanian contribution to liberate nowadays Bulgaria is never remarked and if one tells this to a bulgarian, it is very probably to be look very unfriendly and with suspicion. For bulgarians, only the russians fought in 1877-1878 in Bulgaria. The Tutrakan (Turtucaia) battle from 1916 is praised by bulgarians as "Tutrakan Epopeea", being considered one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) bulgarian military victory ever achieved. Bulgarians regard Cadrilater as valuable for them as romanians consider Transylvania, just to have a image how they look at the issue. Bulgarian propaganda, even today, it is beating the drum that Dobrogea used to belong to Bulgaria. Dobrogea was bulgarian as much as Cadrilater was romanian, but try to explain this to square wooden heads of nationalists, being they bulgarian or romanian. |
Posted by: Dénes March 06, 2011 08:33 am |
Partium (literally, Parts), is still used today by Hungarians, denoting only the area up to the Western Carpathian Mountains in Rumania - thus not part of Transylvania - which were formerly part of the Hungarian Kingdom. However, this term, as it is used today, exists only from 1920 on, when Rumania's Western borders were drawn at Trianon, by the winning Powers. However, historically Partium covered a much larger area, as shown in beige in the map below: ![]() In 1920, this area was divided between Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Hungary. I haven't heard before this term being used by the Rumanian historiography. Therefore, I am not convinced in 1918 "Tara Ungureasca" actually meant only historical Partium. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 06, 2011 11:37 am | ||
Because I have not read the original version of the Leopold diploma (Diploma leopoldina) from 4 december 1691, who functioned as a constitution for the habsburgic contolled Transylvania, I can't say for sure if what I read is text quote or not : the Western Territories "Partium" are included in Transylvania, so Maramures, Satu Mare, Crasna, Solnocul de Mijloc, Bihorul, Zarandul, Aradul with parts of Ugocea, Szabolcs, Hajdu, Bekes, Cenad are now parts of the Principality of Transylvania. The territories liberated from the Turks from Banat (Caransebes, Lugoj, Orsova) are also included in Transylvania at that time. What I wanted to emphasize was that, apparently, the name Partium for the western territories of Transylvania was known and used (I repeat and say "apparently"!). Maybe 21inf can help us? |
Posted by: Agarici March 06, 2011 11:38 am | ||
Another wikipedia-inspired piece of science? ![]() That's hopeless! ![]() ![]() |
Posted by: Agarici March 06, 2011 11:40 am | ||
C, back to the topic (hopefully): even if initially I was against such a perspective, I must admit that the way you put it has an appealing logic. Of course it could had led to (more) violence, but on the one hand in this case the violent acts took place nevertheless (but unilaterally, perpetrated by the Hungarians against the Romanian civilians), and on the other the it is hard to imagine a war-related situation (as the whole cession of NW Transylvania under the threat of force was) without violence. I must admit that I never before gave a chance to this type of "militia-type" (in the sense of the American Independence War) resistance, but the truth is that it could had been a strong anti-violence deterrent, AND it would had made possible a more appropriate (from the perspective of the majority of the Romanian citizens) stance for Romania than that taken by its then-government. Remember that the rank and files in the army, the majority of the officer corps, and the public opinion were overwhelmingly pro-resistance in August-September 1940, as mentioned by the (secret) official reports. The existence/tradition of a weaponry practice among the civilian population could had also radically improve their performance as conscripts and their proficiency in a war, especially in a defensive one, as clearly seen in the case of Finland in the Winter War. Any other opinions? |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 06, 2011 12:07 pm |
Agarici, is indeed an interesting problem, that it's worth thinking at... With the risk of saying a dumb I remember the tactics used by the JNA (Jugoslav Federal Army) in his "withdrawal" (apparent withdrawal of course) from the serb-populated regions from Croatia and Bosnia... they withdrew a portion of heavy weapons, the officers and NCOs and a small part of the troops in Serbia, leaving in the barracks mostly of light weapons and ammunition taken immediately by the Serb local militias, in fact territorial troops already mobilized... Of course this happened in 1992 not in 1940! But the idea was interesting and I guess applicable in 1940... Of course with the assistance of High Military Command of our Army... What do you think? |
Posted by: Radub March 06, 2011 12:22 pm | ||
Just because you do not like what it says, it does not mean that wikipedia is wrong. Look at the really, really, I mean really long list of books quoted as references in that Wikipedia article. Are they ALL wrong? Another flaw in the "argument" of "Wikipedia deniers" is that anyone, including YOU, especially YOU, can write there, so if there is a mistake, any mistake, YOU have opportunity (if not the duty) to correct it. If YOU do not correct what YOU know is wrong, then YOU are just as (if not more) guilty for any mistakes there. Radu |
Posted by: Agarici March 06, 2011 12:35 pm | ||||
Also, even though this is sensitive and might be used as a pretext for self-inflaming by some, I would not equate the two offensive labels, even thought they are both irremediably disqualifying those using them. For our non-Romanian (or Hungarian) speaking fellows from the forum, budos olah literally means “filthy (or stinky) Wallachian”. It was used largely in the state-sponsored Hungarian revisionist propaganda (brochures, leaflets, etc) during the interwar years. That was made on such a scale that it led to at least one official protest by the Romanian ambassador in Budapest to the Hungarian prime-minister Csaky. According to a (non Romanian) historian, in between-the-wars Hungary, the shop owners who would refuse to publicly display the map with “the crime from Trianon” or the (in)famous slogan “Nem, nem, soha!” (“No, no, never!” - with reference to the acceptance of the Hungarian post-1918 borders) were subjected to constant harassment by the police or by various “patriotical organizations”. Since those materials were regularly distributed - officially in Hungary and clandestinely in Transylvania - the common public (and private) use of such terms after the Diktat was not simply the deed of some “stupid and ignorant” people, and the violence & the abuses against the Romanian civilian did NOT appear out of the blue, or because some isolated civilian sniped on a Hungarian army column in the middle of the day, from the church tower. The anti-Romanian prejudices and hatred were build in time and systematically, from 1919 to 1940, by that type of propaganda, with the blessing (or rather under the guidance) of M. Horthy government. If someone would find discussing this part of pre-1940 Hungary official policy in any way inappropriate, I think this would rather be his problem. Bozgor or boanghen have no strict literal sense, meaning “people without a country”. From what I know they are post WW 2 "creations", and were (and unfortunately are still used) in some less educated (or with less discernment) social environments. When I first heard about these terms, in secondary school, I didn't know what they mean either. From some of my Hungarian friends, I also heard that the terms were used in the military (with/among the conscripts). I never heard any source claiming that these insulting terms were officially or publicly used by the Romanian side in any sort of anti-Hungarian propaganda, ever. The comparison speaks for itself, and I will stop here with this subject. |
Posted by: C-2 March 06, 2011 01:52 pm |
Agarici, All I ment in this topic was to try opening the eyes those who doesn't want to accept the fact that massacres like that take place only where civil population is unarmed. Back in 73 ,the Yom Kipur war. A Irakian tank brigade,armed ith the latest soviet tehnology,entered Israely border facing a reserve israely tank brigade ,armed with...WW2 Shermans.Yes upgraded ,but without night vision. After a short battle most Israeli Shermans were either distroyed or without fuel and amunition. Historians say that the Iraqi comandant was afraid of an ambush.(What ambush? no other Israeli tanks were available). I belive that he didn't pushed his luck to cover another 70-80 km till the sea shore (and cutting Israel in two) since he knew that he's gonna get bullets from every window and every streat corner. And examples are endless. You take population weapons-you can do to them whatever you please. Not very much on the subject,but the Mondial guy,who was arested for almost killing a rival familly member,had a licence for 2 fire arms.He has endles accusations for violence..... |
Posted by: Agarici March 06, 2011 02:52 pm | ||
C, I recently saw a History Channel documentary on that subject, but weren’t the attackers Syrian with T 62 (thermical night vision included), aiming for the Golan Heights, and the Israelis using British Centurions? The Centurions were also outgunned (105 vs. Syrian 115 mm tank gun). The rest of the story was identical, and many veterans (and actually Yom Kippur combatants) were interviewed for the movie. And the Syrian thrust was indeed stopped during the night by order form the Syrian commanders. But then what about the example of the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. Wasn’t that one an example in the opposite sense, since (at least initially) the fact that the noncombatants/irregulars owned guns triggered, or at least justified, the high level of Soviet violence and abuses against civilians? |
Posted by: C-2 March 06, 2011 06:57 pm |
I wasn't talking about the fight at the Golan hights. The Iraqi tanks invaded from south of the sea of Galilei. I'm sure 100% about what I wrote. The conflicat on the Golan hights was indeed as you wrote. About the situation in Afganistan,we all know from own experience about Soviet troops. |
Posted by: Florin March 07, 2011 07:14 am | ||
According to what I saw in "Greatest Tank Battles" (The Military Channel) the Israeli tanks were able to fire at further distance than their Syrian counterpart. (The average tanks, not some occasional WW2 Shermans.) In plain English, they could kick off Syrian tanks from distances where the Israeli crews were out of reach. However, the Arabs had advantage in numbers. Now, drifting the subject a little, we should not forget that during Yom Kipur war all available fleet of Hercules planes belonging to the United States (22 planes, or something close) supplied Israel with military equipment 24 hours of 24, non stop. Of course, I don't claim it was from the very first day of the war, but it was neither too late. That was the root of the "forever war" between the Muslim world and the U.S. Sorry for drifting the subject, but it already slid away from the original topic shown in the starting message - before my input. |
Posted by: Florin March 07, 2011 07:29 am |
I had read all these posts about the historical impact of civilians having personal weapons en masse. I am not that sure if this is deterrent for atrocities or crimes against civilians. It works only if the armed groups of civilians are able to keep the other force completely out of their controlled land (most recent example: western and eastern halves of Lybia). If the occupying force is still in control of the territory, armed resistance from some civilians can turn into a disaster for all civilians. Examples: - The Germans as occupiers in Yugoslavia, Poland, Soviet Union, France, Italy Later, after 1945, in Allied occupied Germany: - for one Soviet soldier shot dead, the Soviets rounded up and executed 200 German men, all in the same city - for some shots in a French occupied German town, the French shelled the town (yes, they really fired with canons against the German town - and it was 1946...) |
Posted by: Radub March 07, 2011 06:19 pm | ||
The whole of Dobruja was part of the "Vilayet of Rumelia" between 1420 and 1878. During that period, the whole of Dobruja was part of an administrative region called "Bulgaria". I agree, there was no "Bulgaria" as a state before 1878. But the same applies equally to "Romania". Radu |
Posted by: 21 inf March 07, 2011 07:46 pm | ||
I never heard about this. Can you tell more about this examples, please? |
Posted by: C-2 March 07, 2011 08:02 pm | ||
Welll in Libia we have gun control. So it was in the Soviet Union. I belive that in Italy there also was a gun control. Poland and france never had a tradition of armed population. And I fell missunderstood here... I'm not talking about some civilians starting killing invading soldiers as guerillas. I'm talking about an ocupation force that starts from aparently no reason killing unarmed ,undefended civilians. |
Posted by: Florin March 07, 2011 09:17 pm | ||
The habit of killing unarmed undefended civilians is as old as known history, and unfortunately it seems humans cannot evolve to a higher level. It is pointless to mention certain nations here: it happened so often, and in every nation live together good apples with rotten apples. Unfortunately, quite often good guys falling prisoners to the other side are subject of revenge for what their bad comrades did. |
Posted by: Florin March 07, 2011 09:33 pm | ||||
I had the chance to learn this from a recent documentary on the Military Channel. They even mentioned the name of the French occupied town and the Soviet occupied city. Like you, I did not know about this until seeing the documentary. They mentioned that the British and the American did not go that far. Let me believe it, until we may learn something else. The subject of the documentary was exactly this: German resistance against occupiers after May 1945. The Soviets filled with German civilians the Nazi concentration camps conveniently found already built. The Americans arrested whole categories of population as a first step, and then they started to filter the arrested people to see who is going to be freed. The detention place: former Nazi concentration camps. It is interesting that the German resentment against Allies was widespread, regardless the fact that they were anti-Nazi or pro-Nazi before. Eventually the mass resistance took an interesting form: the refusal to denounce the people they knew they were pro-Nazi or SS before. This was quite effective, because it stopped the Allies to build prosecution cases for many people. |
Posted by: Radub March 08, 2011 09:37 am | ||
Not anymore, it seems. Every news report from Libya shows that an awful lot of weapons of all calibres are now in the hands of civilians. And the number of civilian casualties is growing every day. I guess there must be a link... ![]() Radu |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 08, 2011 05:53 pm | ||
radub Sorry Radu I must disagree... even if I'm not a fan of military weapons (automatic or semi-automatic rifles or machine-guns and so on) in civilian hands, I think it is legitimate to revolt against such a demented and criminal leader as Gaddafi is! Sure I deplore the victims of this revolt, but the responsibility belongs not to the revolted people, but the crazy dictator and its mercenaries... It is my opinion of course, but I don't think the situation is due the civilians posess weapons, but due to the criminal nature of the regime, and the and violence unleashed by him... |
Posted by: Radub March 08, 2011 06:57 pm | ||
Absolutely! I have no qualm with revolution. But there are many reports on TV showing people firing the guns in "celebration" or firing them just "to look good on camera" at all kinds of angles, vertical, oblique, anywhichwhere, with crazy abandon while posing in Rambo stances. Those bullets have to come down (gravity always wins ![]() Such misuse of lethal weapons is a serious problem and has nothing to do with dictatorship. On Euronews this morning there was a doctor from a "town held by rebels" saying that he had been treating wounds to the head and shoulders "as if someone was shooting from above". ![]() Radu |
Posted by: ANDREAS March 08, 2011 08:14 pm | ||
I totally agree with your statement! I was always disturbed by this kind of scenes... that I remember I've seen on TV by albanese, iraquis, palestinians and libanese "warriors" participants in various conflicts... young people who show off, probably without much of military training (maybe none), sure victims in the case of a serious fight... |
Posted by: Hadrian March 08, 2011 08:44 pm |
They will die if a fight with trained people occurs. Because they have also guns, the first victims will be innocent civilians... |
Posted by: Florin March 10, 2011 05:07 am | ||
Once upon a time, before drifting like logs down the river, this topic started with a movie from a link offered by C-2 . . . I found quite interesting the information presented at seconds 7:39...7:40. But you have to stop the movie (freeze the image), because that text cannot be read in 2 seconds. |
Posted by: 21 inf March 10, 2011 06:59 am |
Partially back on the topic http://muzeulrefugiatilor.eu/muzeul_national.html read this. At the section Crimele contilor Vass, the romanian priest, killed in his own house, was listed in the documents, by hungarian authorities, as "killed in action". Might be the case in other situations, as I said that I met in other writings: romanian civilians executed by hungarian troops and after that they were said were partisans killed in action. |
Posted by: Dénes March 10, 2011 01:53 pm |
I started to read the story until I stumbled over this passage: "...Hitler got scared by the perspective that by the ratification of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the annihilation of Rumania by fascist Hungary and Soviet Russia, the Russians will end up in Central Europe, he imposed the Vienna Diktate...". This peculiar and strange view on history, with several intentional distorsions in one half sentence, is enough for me to have an idea what the rest of the text most probably contains. Gen. Dénes |
Posted by: 21 inf March 10, 2011 03:26 pm |
Denes, you are right to consider the text as peculiar regarding how found is the author. The fragment of text I pointed is cited from another book, is not by the author of the site. |
Posted by: Florin March 10, 2011 05:13 pm | ||
After the war with Soviet Union was already on, Hitler declared to his inner circle of collaborators at Berghof, his home in the Bavarian Alps: "The Russians missed an unique opportunity in 1940. With only 60 divisions they could conquer all Romania and cut Germany's access to the Romanian oil." |
Posted by: Victor March 12, 2011 06:51 pm |
C-2, there is already a topic about gun control. Post there if you wish to discuss it: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5352&st=90entry79754 Otherwise gun control has nothing to do with the inter-war period. |
Posted by: C-2 March 12, 2011 10:29 pm |
I have mine obssesions..... |