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WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > May 31, 1944 W.Batz claims

Posted by: yugit November 03, 2011 08:50 pm

All : I need some expert opinion on this, since the records of W.Batz don't match the losses of the opponent . Batz alone is claiming on May 31, 1944 15 airplanes as shot down. According my info collected from the Russian archives and various books the Soviets lost on that day 23 airplanes of mixed types such as LAGG, YAK mainly P-39's and IL-2. But I would round up the Soviet figures to 30 and I still don't come up with the figures claimed by Batz, which again seems to be an example of a WWII exageration of the Germans. On 31st ,many German pilots claimed in total as much as 68 Soviet planes ,but frankly I believe that not even the half would be correct. Batz figures are claimed in full and not in group. An other example is Erich Hartmann claims in Rumania ....60% of the Rumanian claims against the 15th AF and VVS dont carry aircraft types neither specific dates....and they may have been too a product of the same war propaganda......

Posted by: Dénes November 04, 2011 06:27 am

QUOTE (yugit @ November 04, 2011 02:50 am) An other example is Erich Hartmann claims in Rumania ....60% of the Rumanian claims against the 15th AF and VVS dont carry aircraft types neither specific dates....and they may have been too a product of the same war propaganda...... What source do you base your statement on? I hope not 'The Blond Knight of Germany'... Gen. Dénes

Posted by: yugit November 04, 2011 08:48 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ November 04, 2011 06:27 am) What source do you base your statement on? I hope not 'The Blond Knight of Germany'... Gen. Dénes Denes The book I am reffering to is " Holt Hartmann von Himmel " Best Regards Al

Posted by: Dénes November 04, 2011 01:36 pm

It's the same book, translated in German. I suggest you not to use it as reference. Gen. Dénes

Posted by: yogy November 04, 2011 01:58 pm

Al, first of all: The situation which prevailed during this (aerial) battles is typical for unintentional overclaiming: Quite large numbers of planes concentrated in a very small area. In such situations, overclaiming of 100% too much is nothing special. Apart from that, at least some of the claims of Batz really seem quite high: Mission "2": four P-39 within 16 minutes, two of them in one minute at 3.000 and then 2.000 meters... how would one be "100% sure" that these two were real kills? Must have been explosion / breaking of huge parts at the first kill... Mission "3": A Sturmovik and a La-5 in one minute, and the another IL-2. Mission "4": Three IL-2 - this was quite difficult if the Me-109 doesn't carry gunpods, which afaik were at least disliked since 1943 already... On the other hand, 205.IAD alone lost nine P-39 with pilots dead/wounded or HTS, and 9.GIAD lost lost minimum seven dead pilots (incl. planes), maybe plus the same amount of planes with pilots surviving? 304.IAD seems to not have seen action. Then we would have 23 Cobras - against >40 German claims . At least we can be sure that there was a lot of deadly fighting including overclaiming (on boths sides).

Posted by: Dénes November 04, 2011 05:30 pm

QUOTE (yogy @ November 04, 2011 07:58 pm) Then we would have 23 Cobras - against >40 German claims . Don't forget the Rumanian fighter claims, too, plus flak. Gen. Dénes

Posted by: yugit November 04, 2011 06:13 pm

Denes / Yogi The Soviet aces claimed on May 31st '44 37 fighters down,strangely almost all were Germans. Most of their favourite hunt during Iasi Kishinew campaigns would remain the JU-87's. The Soviets lost 11 P-39 and 9 IL-2 the rest is a mixture of LAGG's YAK's and 1 A-20. Frankly, I think all claims led by Germans were exagerated....they were all hungry for medals and "Ehre Pokals " and the others for gold stars and Lenin orders. One need to remember that also then these medals were worth lots of money and privileges. In addition to 17 ML.Lt, 4 Lt., 2 Sgt. pilots , various enlisted gunners and other unknown lost pilots also Major V.V.Sokolov deputy Sqd.Cd. of 438 GvIAP (205 IAD ) would be lost near Iasi on that day by the Soviets. Either way I would recommend a book called "Red Star P-39" by Marinskiy(english ), all Pokrishkin and Kojedub books, Arhipenko ,Evstigneev Stroykov and Sereda memoirs..regretfully the last only for those who speak Russian. Al

Posted by: yugit November 04, 2011 06:52 pm

Denes I am not sure if I told you or Yogi in the past, but I personally knew Hartmann during his life time, He lived just 3 hrs drive from my location. I have some of his personal memoires, various other stuff he published during his post war Luftwaffe time and during his staying in the US. His aerials are not 100 % accurate and none can prove today his claims nor any other claims from WWII of any given pilot. The mentioned book was not my single reference material. BR Al

Posted by: yogy November 05, 2011 07:25 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ November 04, 2011 06:13 pm) The Soviets lost 11 P-39  and 9 IL-2 the rest is a mixture of LAGG's YAK's and 1 A-20. How do you arrive at the figure "11"? My informations say that on 31.5., the loviet 4.IAK lost nine P-39 from 205.IAD plus seven dead pilots from 9.GIAD (means minimum 9 more P-39). This is 16, not 11... ? (205.IAD from that well-known russian article, 9.GIAD from OBD-memorial)

Posted by: yugit November 05, 2011 07:36 pm

Denes I've got some classical examples of WWII aces scores inconsitancies. which I am posting herewith just as a rough reference. At page 65 "Barbarossa " of Bergstroem he is citing Pokrishkin along with Diatchenko as those who shot down Heydrich on July 22,41. This story is partially repeated by some Russian Internet sites...though the official roaster of Pokrishkim himself not showing any ME-109 brought down on the above date. At the same time the AA divisions possibly belonging the 18th Army which were spread out around Tiraspol and Balti, claimed between other also that ME-109.....additionally Pokrishkin and his wingman took off from Kotovsk. An other curious story is this of the pilot of the JG77 namely Major W.Schellmann which was claimed according Russian sources by Atrashkevitch of 55IAP then an other source citing a biplane pilot of 126 IAP etc.....so you tell me whom to believe at last. PS: By the way from what I red other than Internet, he was not executed just like that by NKVD...it seems he made an escape attempt.... execution which of course wasnt deserved by a pilot but those who condemn the execution, should remember the terrible high figures of Allied pilots executed by the Germans.....other than " The Great Escape "story...such as the 36 Soviet pilots who tried to escpae from Dachau and were executed on spot with no trial . Al BR Al

Posted by: yugit November 05, 2011 08:36 pm

Yogi This is what I have , is not simple to scroll through OBD. Tell me whats missing on 5.31.44 on the P-39 roaster: SANDALINOV SOKOLOV DEPUTY SQ CO SCHKONDIN BRASHEV VOLKOV KAMENSKI KARPOV CHISTOV SCHVETZOV YAZOV GROMOV Al PS : pse indicate the missing names in full, prefferably Russian ( copy /paste)

Posted by: Dénes November 06, 2011 04:37 pm

Returning to the original topic, here are Batz's 15 claims for 31 May 1944: Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 814: 500m 07.13 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 821: 500m 07.05 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 566: 5000m 16.45 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 814: 800m 17.05 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 813: 500m 17.08 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 683: 300m 06.50 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 678: 2000m 16.30 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 673: 3000m 11.39 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 359: 3000m 19.14 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 654: 3500m 11.33 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 672: 2000m 11.24 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 678: 3000m 11.20 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 679: 2500m 11.17 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 679: 500m 06.57 Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 823: 800m 07.15 Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Dénes November 06, 2011 04:43 pm

And here are Hartmann's claims for the same day: Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 733: 3500m 18.13 Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 647: 4000m 18.05 Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 614: 5000m 18.08 Gen. Dénes

Posted by: yugit November 06, 2011 08:09 pm

Denes In the early 30's a cartoonist designed the Superman to divert the American minds from the financial depression of that time and motivate younger minds towards progress and ingenuity...which in a way worked out. If Batz brought down 15 airplanes in one day , then he's could have well been the next Hollywood character of Superman and his name should have been Oberst Rudel and candidate for golden Oak Leaves with diamonds and swords...for wipping out an entire squadron. Other than that, I belive that this was a result of miscalculation or someone who wanted to see him promoted...or just the usual war propaganda of the Germans. Al

Posted by: Dénes November 07, 2011 08:13 am

Alex, Are you here to try to investigate the claims of Batz and match them with possible Soviet losses, or for anti-German statements? Let me know because if it's the latter, I really have no time to waste for such things. Gen. Dénes

Posted by: yugit November 07, 2011 08:44 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ November 07, 2011 08:13 am) Alex, Are you here to try to investigate the claims of Batz and match them with possible Soviet losses, or for anti-German statements? Let me know because if it's the latter, I really have no time to waste for such things. Gen. Dénes Denes Indeed I try to match the claims with those of the Sviets, so by no means would appreciate the help BR Al

Posted by: yogy November 11, 2011 08:25 am

QUOTE (yugit @ November 05, 2011 08:36 pm) SANDALINOV SOKOLOV DEPUTY SQ CO SCHKONDIN BRASHEV VOLKOV KAMENSKI KARPOV CHISTOV SCHVETZOV YAZOV GROMOV My list for 7.IAK/5.VA on the 31.5.1944 shows the following fighter pilot's names: Барышев Илья Павлович Бургонов Николай Федорович Волков Семен Иванович Евсюков Василий Кузьмич Забелин Сергей Яковлевич aviakatastr. P39 Каменский Алексей Павлович Карпов Николай Павлович Осипов Георгий Яковлевич Петухов Владимир Сергеевич Пуговский Михаил Николаевич aviakatastr. P39 Сандалинов Виктор Александрович Соколов Василий Васильевич Чистов Николай Александрович Шкондин Василий Демьянович Язов Леонид Александрович Included are 9.GIAD, 205.IAD and 304.IAD. Their IAP's pilots claimed aerial vistories during "our" operation. 12.GIAD from 1.GShAK also filed two losses from: Кощеев Георгий Федорович (183.GIAP) Назаров Тит Данилович (186.GIAP) Shturmoviks and bombers are not yet finished

Posted by: yugit November 11, 2011 10:15 am

Yogi Thank you for your follow up, though the addition is not really an addition, the names & figures I gave were those who come in question in line with the initial topic losses. The extra two names showing up on your list were not event related eventhough the dates are correct (Pugovski & Zabelin ) Both pilots seems to have been killed near their airfield during take off or perhaps during landing near Vinitza region as such they are filed as non combat related casualties . Petuhov & Osipov were from 104 GvIAP,also I found Kozinov and Tschesnokov from same mentioned GIAD and matching the date in question...though no sufficient personal ref. available. In addition I don't think that the last two pilots of 12 GIAD possibly flew P-39's but rather YAK's. Best Regards Alex

Posted by: yogy November 11, 2011 02:50 pm

QUOTE (yugit @ November 11, 2011 10:15 am) (Pugovski & Zabelin ) Both pilots seems to have been killed near their airfield during take off or perhaps during landing near Vinitza region as such they are filed as non combat related casualties . [...] In addition I don't think that the last two pilots of 12 GIAD possibly flew P-39's but rather YAK's. Al, thank you for the inspiring words "not really an addition" . To be honest, such stuff rather demotivates me to further cooperation. And still, it is two more then in your list of eleven. Anyway, let's go on: 1) How / from which source do you know that Pugovski & Zabelin were killed near Vinnitsa? Afaik, 104.GIAP was based just N of the line Botosani/Stefanesti. 2) Even if one leaves them and the two Yak-pilots out, I still count 13 other P-39 pilots being killed on that day, presumably all in combat. From that "fact" of 13, one still can only make an educated guess on the number of planes lost. But one thing is sure: The number is still huge compared to two pilots from JG52 who were KIA on that day. (Even if this still is very simplified due to Romanians and other Soviet units...) Back to the original topic: With the data which is available to me, it is just not possible to proof or disprove the claims of Batz. Have a nice weekend (everybody).Today is the most inspring date of all oru life: 11.11.'11

Posted by: yugit November 11, 2011 03:54 pm

Yogi, Ml.Lt's Pugoski & Zabelin were killed according OBD, which I am sure you can read Russian , in the Vinitza Obleasty.....Vinitzkoy Obleasti means in Russian,Vinitza region....and " after an air catastrophy " I wonder on why ,by me rectifying the events that would lead to loss of motivation at your end ? The total is more or less in line with what I've indicated earlier on . http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img256/3791/87842125.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 Alex PS : I have attached the original document for the purpose of translation

Posted by: Dénes November 11, 2011 06:13 pm

QUOTE (yogy @ November 11, 2011 08:50 pm) From that "fact" of 13, one still can only make an educated guess on the number of planes lost. 13 dead fighter pilots in one single day is a huge number. When accurate numbers of aircraft actually lost in combat is missing, you can easily multiply the number of dead pilots by two to get a ballpark number. If you count the combat damaged ones, too, you can easily reach 40-50 aircraft. However, this is speculation only. That's why archival research is so essential to get the real picture. Gen. Dénes

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