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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Biographical Research > Aurel Vlaicu.


Posted by: C-2 June 14, 2010 09:08 pm
Thursday 17th at the Afi Mall Cotroceni a celeb. of Vlaicu's first flight.
Not many know that the flight took place from the exact place where the Mall stands today.
THe Chief Ing. of the MAll ,who is a aviation fan,is org. the event.
All are welcome.

Posted by: 21 inf June 19, 2010 08:30 pm
How it was at this action? What happened?

Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2010 11:15 am
Sorry for the late reply....
http://img823.imageshack.us/i/dsc02950b.jpg/

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Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2010 11:21 am
The army and the church took over (like usual).
What was strange was that Vlaicu's relative (the one who was present at the last Av.Day) wasn't present.
http://img202.imageshack.us/i/dsc02951s.jpg/

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Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2010 11:26 am
There was a replica of Vlaicu's plane,inside the Mall,but I have no photos of it.
http://img821.imageshack.us/i/dsc02955l.jpg/

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Posted by: C-2 June 20, 2010 11:34 am
The tall guy,who stands in the back-right,white shirt and sun glasses ,is Mr .S. Shai.
He was the "head" of this ceremony,after finding the marble plate that mentioned Vlaicu's flight from the same place where Afi MAll stands.
What is somehow sad,is the fact that a total stranger was more interested in the romanian heritage,then "others".
Anyhow,it went just fine,all were pleased (exept maybee from the puppet guards ,who had to stay in the burning sun.
http://img80.imageshack.us/i/dsc02954n.jpg/

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Posted by: 21 inf June 20, 2010 01:27 pm
Thanks for the info and for the photos!

What a shame that a foreigner had to have the initiative to celebrate this event and the romanians did nothing, only when they were pushed from the back! Congratulations for that foreign gentleman and shame to romanians. There is no excuse for them for doing nothing.

Posted by: cainele_franctiror June 21, 2010 05:23 am
ARPIA had the initiative...

ARPIA means Asociatia Romana pt Propaganda si Istoria Aviatiei

Posted by: C-2 June 21, 2010 11:58 am
I was talking about the comemorative plate on the entrance of the Mall.
Gen. Dobran was also present at the event.
Unfortunatly he was guarded so well,that I even couldn't see him.

An old romanian/international proverb says: "After the BAttle ,there are many heroes".

Posted by: 21 inf June 21, 2010 07:16 pm
QUOTE (cainele_franctiror @ June 21, 2010 05:23 am)
ARPIA had the initiative...

ARPIA means Asociatia Romana pt Propaganda si Istoria Aviatiei

Then, this is good and ... congratulations!

Posted by: 21 inf June 22, 2010 05:18 pm
QUOTE (C-2 @ June 14, 2010 09:08 pm)
Thursday 17th at the Afi Mall Cotroceni a celeb. of Vlaicu's first flight.
Not many know that the flight took place from the exact place where the Mall stands today.
THe Chief Ing. of the MAll ,who is a aviation fan,is org. the event.
All are welcome.

Now I see that the chief ing. of the mall was the organiser. ARPIA says that she had the initiative. What is the truth?

Posted by: C-2 June 22, 2010 08:49 pm
THe Mall is a private property.
Unless invited,no one could make the ceremony there.
I'm sure that ARPIA wanted to comemorate this event.
I quess there was a joinventure.....

JUst n front of the MAll,ther's a military unit.
MAny army trucks are there.
To tell the truth,no one knows is Vlaicu flew exactly from the place where the MAll stands,or 10 m on the right or on th left.
THe army could make the comemoration very well in his oun yard if wanted....

Posted by: cainele_franctiror June 23, 2010 06:25 am
QUOTE (C-2 @ June 22, 2010 08:49 pm)

JUst n front of the MAll,ther's a military unit.
MAny army trucks are there.
To tell the truth,no one knows is Vlaicu flew exactly from the place where the MAll stands,or 10 m on the right or on th left.
THe army could make the comemoration very well in his oun yard if wanted....

The Army commemorated at the Boboc Air Base for three days (15-17 June). Well, it seems no one important from political scene was interested these days to celebrate a century of military aviation in Romania.

Posted by: Radub June 23, 2010 07:47 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 22, 2010 05:18 pm)
Now I see that the chief ing. of the mall was the organiser. ARPIA says that she had the initiative. What is the truth?

Does it matter?
What should be celebrated, praised and encouraged is the fact that such events take place.
Congratulations to everyone involved!
Radu

Posted by: 21 inf June 23, 2010 06:19 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ June 23, 2010 07:47 am)
...
Does it matter?
...

Yes, it does matter.

It does matter because we romanians should be the one who remember that we must not to forget our forefathers, not the foreigners to come and remind us about our own history. Of course it is ok when this kind of events are celebrated, but let me wonder what would happened if that foreign gentleman would not read about the event and he didnt spoke it out in order to organise something. Almost sure romanians would do nothing.

So, it does matter and it does matter a lot. Is the celebration of the first flight of Wright brothers organised by foreigners in the USA? No. It is organised by americans....

In conclusion, if the event was initiated by romanians it is ok. If not, it is not ok, even if eventually all went well. Hope one got the idea. wink.gif

Posted by: cainele_franctiror June 23, 2010 06:52 pm
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 23, 2010 06:19 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ June 23, 2010 07:47 am)
...
Does it matter?
...

Yes, it does matter.

It does matter because we romanians should be the one who remember that we must not to forget our forefathers, not the foreigners to come and remind us about our own history. Of course it is ok when this kind of events are celebrated, but let me wonder what would happened if that foreign gentleman would not read about the event and he didnt spoke it out in order to organise something. Almost sure romanians would do nothing.

So, it does matter and it does matter a lot. Is the celebration of the first flight of Wright brothers organised by foreigners in the USA? No. It is organised by americans....

In conclusion, if the event was initiated by romanians it is ok. If not, it is not ok, even if eventually all went well. Hope one got the idea. wink.gif

I see it this way> ARPIA had the initiative and contacted the Mall Executive (that I know for sure). The Mall see it as a great opportunity to promote themselves and gave the money. Of course, giving the money and location they became organizers. Anyway, in many Romanian places Aurel Vlaicu was celebrated. I don't like many things in Romania, but I don't have nothing to reproach to the Romanians concerning this centenary. I know there were no money, it is really a big big crisis here.

Posted by: Dénes June 24, 2010 05:47 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 24, 2010 12:19 am)
It does matter because we romanians should be the one who remember that we must not to forget our forefathers, not the foreigners to come and remind us about our own history.

Pardon me, but I don't agree with this nationalist way of thinking. History is not owned by anyone, it's international. Imagine, what would be the situation if German history were commemorated/written about only by Germans, Russian (Soviet) only by Russians, French only by French people, etc. It's nonsense.

When I wrote my book on the Rumanian air force, published in the USA, and went to Bucharest to present a complimentary copy to those who assisted me, someone - a well known Rumanian aviation historian - noted something exactly along this line of thinking: "Why do you write about our history? Why don't you write about the Hungarian air force instead?" I felt offended then and still find it a stupid remark...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: cainele_franctiror June 24, 2010 06:08 am
QUOTE (Dénes @ June 24, 2010 05:47 am)

When I wrote my book on the Rumanian air force, published in the USA, and went to Bucharest to present a complimentary copy to those who assisted me, someone - a well known Rumanian aviation historian - noted something exactly along this line of thinking: "Why do you write about our history? Why don't you write about the Hungarian air force instead?" I felt offended then and still find it a stupid remark...

Gen. Dénes

I agree

Posted by: C-2 June 24, 2010 08:21 am
I agree too.

Posted by: Radub June 24, 2010 08:24 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 23, 2010 06:19 pm)
It does matter because we romanians should be the one who remember that we must not to forget our forefathers, not the foreigners to come and remind us about our own history.

Romanians often complain that "foreigners do not care about us" and keep saying that we must prove to the world that we are worthy of notice. Well, here you are! Foreigners noticed us and not only they noticed us, but they celebrarted and appreciated what they noticed. In other countries, such a "foreigner" would probably get a medal and be called a "honorary national". You should applaud this man (wherever he was born) because he "simte romaneste".

Let us celebrate and praise the event. The praise for the "Vlaicu century celebration" should be about the event, not the organiser behind it. Long may such events continue. Well done!

Radu

Posted by: 21 inf June 24, 2010 07:08 pm
I am very "happy" to get as answer to my post all the frustration gathered by you guys, during years, for which I am not responsible. What is my fault that one sent Denes to write about other history than romanian one or what is my fault that other romanians wanted that foreigners to care more about Romania?

Denes, I didnt put labels to you or to your judgements in the past, even we were sometimes more or less in disagreement to each other, so I consider an insult and an offence to label my thinking as "nationalist". I respect you even if we had oposite opinions sometimes, because it is your right to have them, as well as I have the same right.

In a simplified way, let's say that I wanted to say that if a foreigner would came to John Doe and remind to that John Doe that he has to comemorate his grandfather who died some X tens of years ago, because John Doe forget about his dead grandfather because of his own ignorance and lack of responsibility, almost sure John Doe will feel if not responsibilised, than at least ashamed that someone from outside family honoured his own ancestor instead of himself, the ignorant John Doe. Also, of course, the intervention of the foreigner is to be apreciated.

Posted by: Radub June 25, 2010 07:55 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 24, 2010 07:08 pm)
I am very "happy" to get as answer to my post all the frustration gathered by you guys, during years, for which I am not responsible.

Yes, there is frustration in some posts, especially yours. You are frustrated that foreigners care more for Romania than Romanians do? OK then! Channel this energy towards a positive change. "Omul sfinteste locul". Join in. Join ARPIA or Aripi Romanesti. Join your local Aeroclub. Start a campaign (The Coanda anniversary is coming). Do your bit. Change things. Organise events. No one stops you. Or is this a case of the perennial Romanian: "sa se"-ism? "Da sa se faca", "da sa se dea", "ce se da aicea doamna?". YOU should step out of this "diateza pasiva" and be more active.

I cannot possibly see what is wrong with a "foreigner" remembering and commemorating your past. The best Luftwaffe historians are British and American, Max Axworthy (not a Romanian, as you probably guessed) wrote about the Romanian Army, Eric Mombeek (not a "pui de Dac" either) wrote about the Romanian aviation, etc.

It is a good thing when others get involved in our history. We often saw how our own historians distorted and falsified history to serve their own (or the Party) interests.

In any case, I cannot possibly see what the whole fuss is about. The Vlaicu centenary anniversary was a good thing. It took place. That is all that matters.

Radu


Posted by: Taz1 June 25, 2010 09:06 am
Seems that Aurel Vlaicu was emploied at Opel factory in 1908 : http://www.wall-street.ro/articol/Auto/87363/Galerie-foto-Prima-editie-a-Bucharest-Classic-Car-Show-Opel-111-ani.html

http://www.wall-street.ro/articol/Auto/87363/Galerie-foto-Prima-editie-a-Bucharest-Classic-Car-Show-Opel-111-ani/galerie/Prima-editie-a-Bucharest-Classic-Car-Show-Opel-111-ani/469/4996.html.

Posted by: Radub June 25, 2010 10:21 am
Yes, he was. He also patented a numebr of car-related inventions that were later purchased by Opel. Also, another forgotten thing about him is that he invented and patented an efficient "Schalldose" (pick-up diaphragm) used on most grammaphones afterwards.
The book "Vlaicu" by Dan Antoniu is an excellent source of information about his life and his work. He was a very intersting man, a true genius, and deserves a lot of praise, more than that heaped on others. Funny thing is that he was the kind of man that always attracted cranks and weirdos who kept complaining about him and his work. Interestingly, one of the main complaints about him was that he was not "Romanian enough". laugh.gif
Radu

Posted by: cainele_franctiror June 25, 2010 02:12 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ June 25, 2010 07:55 am)
[ Join in. Join ARPIA or Aripi Romanesti. Join your local Aeroclub. Start a campaign (The Coanda anniversary is coming). Do your bit. Change things. Organise events. No one stops you.

Starting this year, we have one, two or three centenaries per year in aviation.

e,g
1911 firt military pilot license Stefan Protopopescu

1912 The first military flying school
100 years from birth of Al. serbanescu
100 years from firt Romanian casulties in air accident - Lt Gh. Caranda

etc

and btw of anniversaries, this July 20th we celebrate The Air Heroes Monument - 75 years

Posted by: Victor June 25, 2010 07:52 pm
QUOTE (Radub @ June 25, 2010 09:55 am)
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 24, 2010 07:08 pm)
I am very "happy" to get as answer to my post all the frustration gathered by you guys, during years, for which I am not responsible.

Yes, there is frustration in some posts, especially yours. You are frustrated that foreigners care more for Romania than Romanians do? OK then! Channel this energy towards a positive change. "Omul sfinteste locul". Join in. Join ARPIA or Aripi Romanesti. Join your local Aeroclub. Start a campaign (The Coanda anniversary is coming). Do your bit. Change things. Organise events. No one stops you. Or is this a case of the perennial Romanian: "sa se"-ism? "Da sa se faca", "da sa se dea", "ce se da aicea doamna?". YOU should step out of this "diateza pasiva" and be more active.

I cannot possibly see what is wrong with a "foreigner" remembering and commemorating your past. The best Luftwaffe historians are British and American, Max Axworthy (not a Romanian, as you probably guessed) wrote about the Romanian Army, Eric Mombeek (not a "pui de Dac" either) wrote about the Romanian aviation, etc.

It is a good thing when others get involved in our history. We often saw how our own historians distorted and falsified history to serve their own (or the Party) interests.

In any case, I cannot possibly see what the whole fuss is about. The Vlaicu centenary anniversary was a good thing. It took place. That is all that matters.

Radu


Radu, 21inf is part of the people that actually do something. Actually he is one of the people who do more and speak less. He was just trying to emphasize the thing that it would be shameful for Romanians to forget their own heroes. That's all. The fact that you and others misunderstood is really not his fault and does not call for yet another flame war.

Posted by: 21 inf June 25, 2010 08:50 pm
Victor, thank you for understanding exactly what I mean and thanks for knowing my "work".

For all those who want to know why Victor said that about me, please read the following links (texts provided only in romanian language), describing the last 3 actions from this month, which were done or to be done by the association I founded 3 years ago in order to keep our romanian traditions alive and to keep our respect to our forefathers. All the members of our association are volunteers and they are financing the actions from their own pocket, on their free time.

http://6dorobanti.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276976217

http://6dorobanti.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1277443464

http://6dorobanti.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1277442951

Posted by: Radub June 25, 2010 09:57 pm
QUOTE (Victor @ June 25, 2010 07:52 pm)
The fact that you and others misunderstood is really not his fault and does not call for yet another flame war.

I still believe that the Vlaicu anniversary was a good thing. I congratulate yet again the organisers, whoever they were. Long may they continue to organise such events.

Radu

I am also involved, and also as a volunteer. wink.gif (Ask Cantacuzino)

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 08:45 am
Mr Denes don't likes nationalism at all, but when it is about hungarian nationalism, I don't doubt he likes it.

I remember you that Mr Denes, in his book "Rumanian air force. The prime decade" not even said A WORD about Vlaicu. Nor about other romanian aviation's pioneers until WW1.
Mr Denes, who writes books about romanian ("rumanian", in his ortography) aviation, never heard about Vlaicu, Vuia, Coanda, Paulat, Goliescu, Brumarescu... No, romanian aviation begans with... Bleriot, in 1909 ! What a shame !

Posted by: Radub May 02, 2011 10:18 am
Many Romanians confuse their hatred of Hungarians with nationalism. Nationalism is about what you love not about what you hate.

It is evident that Denes loves the subject of Romanian aviation. Shall we list the large number of books on the subject that he authored or contribued to? In all of these works, he is extremely positive about Romania and Romanians.

Without his contribution, we would be a lot poorer in knowledge.

Just my two cents,
Radu

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 10:48 am
Non multa sed multum.

(sorry it is not in English)

Posted by: Radub May 02, 2011 10:58 am
Non liquet

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 11:09 am
Not the number of Denes' books is important, but what he writes there, and how he writes. I don't care about the number, the quality is important, and the TRUTH.


Posted by: Radub May 02, 2011 11:40 am
I appreciate Denes Bernad's work and I hope he will continue to release books on Romanian aviation.

Radu

Posted by: Victor May 02, 2011 02:40 pm
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 02, 2011 01:09 pm)
Not the number of Denes' books is important, but what he writes there, and how he writes. I don't care about the number, the quality is important, and the TRUTH.

Having a rather good knowledge of the Romanian involvement in WW2, I think I can have an educated opinion the books written by Denes on Romanian aviation and airplanes (I have read I think 5 of them). I haven't come across many errors in them and the quality was high enough for me.

In the end of the day what matters most is that he filled a blank in English language aviation history publications that no Romanian ethnic had done until then and made the story of our WW2 military aviators known to a wider audience.

The fact that Denes is stubbornly sticking to the term "Rumania/Rumanian" and that he is a Hungarian ethnic, should not even be relevant.

Posted by: 21 inf May 02, 2011 04:16 pm
I dont know why Denes didnt wrote about Vlaicu and others, but my opinion is that this fact is not important and Denes has nothing to be imputed. If authors or others forget to mention or dont want to mention romanian contribution to world aviation, it is the fault of romanians. We dont have to expect from others to promote romanians, until we ourselves dont make enough efforts to promote what we or our ancestors did. Denes did his part of contribution regarding romanian aviation history, while romanians did less than him. I had some arguments with Denes during years, in relation with romanian-hungarian history. Sometimes I was wrong, sometimes him. I ended respecting him, as I have to learn some things from him. We are all humans, so we owe respect to each other, doesnt matter ethnicity. So, to Denes, a hungarian fellow, a great salute from me, a romanian motz!

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 05:55 pm
I see Denes is more important to you than Vlaicu. Congratulations.

Posted by: Dénes May 02, 2011 06:39 pm
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 02, 2011 02:45 pm)
I remember you that Mr Denes, in his book "Rumanian air force. The prime decade" not even said A WORD about Vlaicu. Nor about other romanian aviation's pioneers until WW1.

Why this sudden attention to my person? You had many months to vent your anger towards me, "a Hungarian" (if you wish to see primarily the ethnicity in me), so I am wondering what triggered your outburst?

Anyhow, as for my book, "Rumanian air force. The prime decade", please quote the full title that also includes "(1938-1947)". i.e., the prime decade. That explains clearly to those who are open minded why I did not write about Vlaicu, Vuia, Coanda, and other Rumanian aviation pioneers being active almost 30 years earlier.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. If you insist in addressing me with Mr., then please do it properly. That's the least I can ask. Or, just call me Dénes, like all other poeple on this forum do.
And many thanks for the moral support given to me by fellow forumites...

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 07:23 pm
Mr Denes, you written a foreword to "Rumanian Air Force", where you are telling about... Bleriot and the beginning of romanian air force. Do you want I remember you your own book ?

And also, do you want to remember thant the map of ROMANIAN KINGDOM you put on the second cover of this book, is an horthyst, irredentist map ?


Posted by: Mihai Popteanu May 02, 2011 08:01 pm
Vranceanu you received a very clear answer from Denes . What do you want in fact ? Are you envy about the contribution of other authors related to aviation history ? About map, Romania suffered territorial losses in 1940. What do you want to see about this in a history book related to that period ?

Posted by: Vranceanu May 02, 2011 10:05 pm
Mihai Popteanu, have you see the book which is in discussion here ?
The book is about the years 1938 - 1947, but the map concerns only the years 1940 - 1944. Why ?
And why romanian towns on this map are named with magyar names ? Brasso, Nagyseben, etc ? Why Constanta is "Konstanza" ?
I didn't notice that Mr Denes use alternative names for magyar towns, for exemple Szeged must be called also Seghedin, Debrecen is Debretin, etc.
Have you read, Mihai Popteanu, the first words of this book ? I give for you, here (dont't forget this topic is about Vlaicu, so I do this for his memory):

"Rumanians can claim a rich aviation heritage. The first flight from rumanian soil took place on the morning of 18 October 1909 when fames french pilot Louis Bleriot flew from Baneasa hippodrome outside Bucharest. The following year, four aircraft - two Farman biplanes, Wright Type B and a Santos Dumont Demoiselle - arrived from France to establish the nucleos of Rumanian militaruy aviation.
On 1 April 1913, ........ etc etc".
The beginnings of romanian aviation is treated like this. Vlaicu don't exist for Mr Denes, nor the other romanian pioneers. Without Bleriot's flight - nothing.
Shame on the author who mistify like this romanian history.

Posted by: 21 inf May 03, 2011 03:36 am
The first flights made by Aurel Vlaicu in 1908 were not in Romania, but in Austro-hungarian Empire, were was the village he was born. Then he was austrian or hungarian subject, of romanian origin.

In 1909 Vlaicu went to Romania. Maybe then he became romanian citisen of romanian origin.

Binţinţi, village of Vlaicu, is in Romania only from 1918, after the Marea Unire.


Posted by: MRX May 03, 2011 03:47 am
QUOTE (21 inf @ May 03, 2011 03:36 am)
The first flights made by Aurel Vlaicu in 1908 were not in Romania

You wanted to say in 1909 ... wink.gif

Posted by: C-2 May 03, 2011 05:54 am
What's funny is that my inocent posts always turn into regional wars...

Posted by: 21 inf May 03, 2011 05:58 am
No, I wanted to say 1908. Some sourves point the first flights of Vlaicu in 1908 in Transilvania, while his first flights in Romania were in 1909. As the source pointing 1908 is wikipedia, the year might be wrong, as wiki is not quite accurate.

Posted by: Radub May 03, 2011 08:51 am
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 02, 2011 10:05 pm)
The book is about the years 1938 - 1947, but the map concerns only the years 1940 - 1944. Why ?

Vranceanu,
Look at the bottom left corner of the map, just below the scale. The explanation says: "place names and boundaries shown in the map reflect the situation existing in June 1941 - at the beginning of 'Operation Barbarossa' "

That map is accurate for that time frame. It matches very well similar maps published in the following books:

- "Armata Romana in al doilea razboi mondial" Editura Meridiane, Bucharest 1995
- "Third Axis - Fourth Ally" by Max Axworthy, Cornel Scafes and Cristian Craciunoiu, Arms and Armour 1995
- "Romania in anii celui de-al doilea razboi mondial, Vol. 1" by Comisia Romana de Istorie Militara, Editura Militara, Bucharest 1989

The map is correct and based on the historic truth. If you are unable to assess the accuracy of that map, how can anyone believe that you are able to assess the accuracy of anything that Denes Bernad wrote?

Radu

Posted by: Vranceanu May 03, 2011 11:10 am
Radu, this discussion is not about me but about Mr Denes's book.
But, for your general culture, I am historian (graduate of University of Bucharest, History) and I have written and published two books and many articles of aviation's history. Who are you to give lessons to me ?

Daniel Focsa

Posted by: MRX May 03, 2011 11:54 am
Daniel, Radub is Radu Branzan.

user posted image

Posted by: Radub May 03, 2011 11:55 am
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 03, 2011 11:10 am)
Radu, this discussion is not about me but about Mr Denes's book.
But, for your general culture, I am historian (graduate of University of Bucharest, History) and I have written and published two books and many articles of aviation's history. Who are you to give lessons to me ?

Daniel Focsa

Hi Daniel,
YOU turned it into a public character asssassination of Denes Bernad. Sow wind, reap storm.
I know your work. Congratulations.
Radu

Posted by: Vranceanu May 03, 2011 02:36 pm
OK, thanks.
I do not intend to make a public assasination of DB biggrin.gif , only to notice a regretable missing in his book, "The prime decade". I apreciate too Denes' work.

Posted by: Dénes May 04, 2011 05:17 pm
Mr. Focsa. If what I wrote in my book is not up to your taste, I suggest you to channel your energies you seem to have a lot of into writing a book about the same topic that shows the events as you perceive it. And find an English language publisher who would actually publish it. This way, everyone would be better off, as any reasonably written book on Rumanian aviation is to the benefit of all.

Finally, if you will decide to take up my suggestion, be brave enough to include in your book details that are not "pleasant", or "politically correct", but were actually part of history regardless if one likes it or now (like the map of Rumania in 1941 I drew, you were for some reason so much upset of and called it "horthyst" - whatever that means).

All these in the name of the word you capitalised in your previous post: (historical) TRUTH.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Vranceanu May 04, 2011 07:22 pm
Mr "general" Denes, I have the liberty to comment a book without an obligation to write another book on the same subject.
You still don't tell us why, in your book, mention Bleriot in 1909 but do not say anything abour ROMANIAN pioneers of aviation.
And why you put only a map with our Transsylvania being part of Hungary (of diktator Horthy), but no other map with the geopolitical situation before 1940 and after 1944 (your book is about "the prime decade" 1938 - 1947, isn't it ?)
And why a town like Constanta is called on your map Konstanza ? In what language is Konstanza, in hungarian ? I am shoked by this, I am born in Constanta and never heard about "Konstanza". (The turkish name is Kustendje, if you don't like romanian names of romanian towns).

I apreciate your work, your books, this is no personnaly what I write here.

Posted by: RedBaron May 05, 2011 12:12 am
@Vranceanu

save your efforts... you cannot fight the wind mills can you?

believe me, whatever arguments you will bring, they wont satisfy wink.gif because they wont... there is only one truth and you cannot question it.

and if you dont like a book (!!!) write yourself a better one! dont criticize it =))

regards wink.gif

av cmd RedBaron (RUM) biggrin.gif

Posted by: Vranceanu May 05, 2011 09:11 am
"and if you dont like a book (!!!) write yourself a better one! dont criticize it =)) "

Really ?
How old are you ? 16 ?

Posted by: Radub May 05, 2011 02:03 pm
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 04, 2011 07:22 pm)
And why a town like Constanta is called on your map Konstanza ? In what language is Konstanza, in hungarian ? I am shoked by this, I am born in Constanta and never heard about "Konstanza". (The turkish name is Kustendje, if you don't like romanian names of romanian towns).


Konstanza is the German name for "Constanta".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan%C8%9Ba
A number of German documents from WW2 mention Konstanza or Konstanz.
The Romanian name "Constanta" is clearly written on the map. The German name "Konstanza" is written in brackets below it.
Radu

Posted by: RedBaron May 05, 2011 09:12 pm
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 05, 2011 09:11 am)
"and if you dont like a book (!!!) write yourself a better one! dont criticize it =)) "

Really ?
How old are you ? 16 ?

in fact that message had a hidden irony in it... you must have missed it. I was hoping the extra signature line would point out the irony... that in italics.

smile.gif in a direct translation I was trying to support your opinion on the matter at hand - there is no such argument "do yourself if you dont like" so that is false.
I have seen the book in question and did not buy it on the grounds presented here, but there were other issues too. Though it has value to it which I wont deny, it misses on some key points in my subjective opinion.

And "you cannot fight windmills" meaning I found it useless to try and debate things. Say if Vlaicu is not recognized because... then... you can present whatever proof you want, it wont make a difference. I also tried to suggest to stop using the term "RUMANIA" (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4262&st=0&#entry81171). All countries refer to us as Romania (RO) or Roumanie (ROU). While in theory not an error, calling us rumanians and using in titles Rumanian wont earn anyone sympathy points IMHO.

FYI I am almost the same age as you are and one less book published than you, if my numbers are correct, but... I think that is totally irrelevant, as it is irrelevant anyone's ethnic background within this issue. smile.gif

Posted by: C-2 May 06, 2011 04:47 pm
Ok guys,
I had enought of you.
All those who took part in this wild discussion are banned for life.
And I may ban also those who never took part.
I'm also banning those who even red those posts.
Hmmm that includes me....

Posted by: Vranceanu May 06, 2011 05:41 pm
smile.gif

Posted by: Radub May 06, 2011 05:43 pm
QUOTE (RedBaron @ May 05, 2011 09:12 pm)
I also tried to suggest to stop using the term "RUMANIA" (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4262&st=0&#entry81171). All countries refer to us as Romania (RO) or Roumanie (ROU). While in theory not an error, calling us rumanians and using in titles Rumanian wont earn anyone sympathy points IMHO.

"Rumania" is perfectly acceptable in English.
It is in the Oxford Dictionary:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0716840#m_en_gb0716840

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Rumanian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania

In a very large number of other languages, their word for "Romania" is spelled with a "Ru..."

Albanian = Rumani
Basque = Errumanian
Bulgarian = Румъния
Croatian = Rumunija
Czech = Rumunsko
Danish = Rumænien
Estonian = Rumeenia
Filipino = Rumanya
German = Rumänien
Icelandic = Rúmenía
Indonesian = Rumania
Latvian = Rumānija
Lithuanian = Rumunija
Maltese = Rumanija
Polish = Rumunia
Russian = Румыния
Serbian = Румунија
Slovak = Rumunsko
Spanish = Rumania
Swedish = Rumänien
Welsh = Rwmania

I know that some have already said that when Denes Bernad used the perfectly acceptable word "Rumania" in his book, he did that to make it sound "Hungarian". Well, the Hungarian word for "Romania" is... Románia

Radu

Posted by: RedBaron May 07, 2011 12:05 am
yes but of course it is.
that is exactly what I said in my prev message. "in theory is not an error" was the exact wording, but thank you for displaying the list - it would have been nice to include the anglo saxon countries also and some others... but wales will do. biggrin.gif

Posted by: C-2 May 07, 2011 05:04 am
I'm gonna close this topic........

Posted by: Radub May 07, 2011 08:36 am
QUOTE (RedBaron @ May 07, 2011 12:05 am)
it would have been nice to include the anglo saxon countries also and some others... but wales will do. biggrin.gif

RedBaron, I was merely replying to your inaccurate statement that "All countries refer to us as Romania (RO) or Roumanie (ROU)."

"Anglo-Saxon"? There is only ONE "Anglo-Saxon" language and that is "English" (hence the "Anglo" bit). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language
As already pointed out, the word "Rumanian" is perfectly acceptable in English and is included in the English Oxford Dictionary and other (no less pretigious) dictionaries.

The "Saxon" bit in "Anglo-Saxon" is a major part of Germanic and Scandinavian languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Low_German
I listed some "Saxon" examples above, but here they are again:
Danish = Rumænien
German = Rumänien
Icelandic = Rúmenía
Swedish = Rumänien

"Wales" is neither "Anglo" nor "Saxon". It is "Gaelic". Even in Romanian it is called "Tara Galilor" as a recognition of that.

Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue" is a great book explaining the origin of English as a language and the reason why there are so many variations in the way words are spelled.

Radu

Posted by: Dénes May 07, 2011 10:10 am
Wow! I didn't realise there are so many "irredentist, horthyst" authors and publishers who deliberately use Rumania in their books! ohmy.gif
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=rumania&sts=t&x=39&y=19
(4240 results listed).

Gen. Dénes

P.S. The French Roumanie (ROU) quoted above also sounds as a "u", doesn't it?

Posted by: C-2 May 07, 2011 11:45 am
Enought!
DEnes,you schould write 100 times rumania or romania/
Vranceanu same with you ,only with Constanta/Konstanza.
I'll write myself (only 10 times cause I'm the host of this area) -Adiss-Abebba.

Posted by: Vranceanu May 10, 2011 02:02 pm
Denes, je ne savais pas que vous maitrisez aussi le francais !

In French, Hungary is "Hongrie" [ongri] , in my next book I shall write "Ongaria" not "Ungaria" !

Posted by: dead-cat May 10, 2011 09:23 pm
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 04, 2011 08:22 pm)

And why a town like Constanta is called on your map Konstanza ? In what language is Konstanza, in hungarian ? I am shoked by this, I am born in Constanta and never heard about "Konstanza". (The turkish name is Kustendje, if you don't like romanian names of romanian towns).

don't be [shocked].
Konstanza is simply the german name, or better said, the german phonetical spelling for Constanta, just as Nuremberg is used in romanian publications instead of Nürnberg. The english speaking world can't be bothered to use München instead of Munich and the french still call Mainz, Mayence.
Now what if Denes used "Kreuzburg an der Bistritz" for Piatra Neamt or even "Kronstadt" for Brasov! oh, the outcry!

Posted by: Dénes May 11, 2011 05:34 am
QUOTE (dead-cat @ May 11, 2011 03:23 am)
Now what if Denes used (...) even "Kronstadt" for Brasov! oh, the outcry!

On the top of that, the German name of Brasov (Kronstadt), along with the Hungarian name (Brasso), are written on the official town signs posted at the entrances to the town. This is also part of what is known as 'Transylvanism', some people don't seem to comprehend.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Radub May 11, 2011 08:54 am
QUOTE (Vranceanu @ May 10, 2011 02:02 pm)
In French, Hungary is "Hongrie" [ongri] , in my next book I shall write "Ongaria" not "Ungaria" !

Vranceanu,
do you somehow think that anyone reading "Ongaria" in your book will automatically think "Denes is a horthyst"? blink.gif Who do you think is going to appear a "fool"? This is like cutting your own nose to spite your face!

The word RUMANIA is perfectly acceptable in English. Bucharest (Not Bucuresti) is perfectly acceptable in English. Transylvania (not Transilvania) is perfectly acceptable in English. Dobruja (not Dobrogea) is perfectly acceptable in English. Carpathians (not Carpati) is perfectly acceptable in English.

Iarna nu-i ca vara, engleza nu-i ca romana.

Radu

PS
It is not my intention to cause further shocks, but this is how others call Constanta:
Greek = Κωνστάντια
Turkish = Köstence
Russian = Констанца
Shall we picket these horthyst/irredentist embassies or can be express anger via this forum? huh.gif

Posted by: bansaraba May 11, 2011 03:13 pm
user posted image

Posted by: Vranceanu May 11, 2011 03:33 pm
Radu B, I didn't said "Denes is a hothist" but "the map on the second cover of his book is hothist".
Guys, you tell a lot of things, but nobody answered me to my normal questions:

1.- why Denes write about romanian aviations' beginnings, and mention only Bleriot, but no romanian pioneer, until 1913 ?
2. - why he put ONLY the map 1940 - 1944, with mutilated Transsylvania, but not the map with Great Romania before 1940, and no map with Romania after 1944 ? Why, if the book is about 1938 - 1947 ?

I have not else to say until I receive logic and normal and common sense answers to theese questions. ph34r.gif

Posted by: dead-cat May 11, 2011 05:34 pm
he didn't write about Otto Lilienthal or the creation of the solar system either.
huh.gif
why this glaring omission? hmmm...
perhaps because the book is called "Rumanian Air Force, The Prime Decade 1938-1947". The focus is ww2. not ww1. not the first decade of the 20th century. perhaps because the scope of the foreword was not to deliver a list of every contribution to manned flight.

i'm all for critical reviews. especially when it comes to books. but let it be facutal, perhaps a disagreement on the conclusions drawn, the language, the format, the quality and why not, the price.
but a percieved omission of persons the book isn't about in the introduction or the display of a map, which turned out the be historically accurate with a proper description, from a period of time some readers have come to dislike, the usage of foreign names and/or spelling for places, when the rest of the world does exactly the same thing, fits in none of the above.

Denes writes books for aviation enthusiast with a focus on ww2. I have yet to meet one who never heared of Vlaicu. or Vuia. and so forth.

Posted by: Dénes May 11, 2011 06:44 pm
Dead-cat, the answers you mentioned are obvious to most good-willed readers and usually would not need any further explanations.

The title gives clearly the topic of the book. Also, I wrote the note on the map exactly to avoid any attacks from those who, for some reason, don't like it, even if it is historically accurate. Also, it is clear to everyone who flicked through the book that there is no more room for maps (this one, too, ended up on the rear side of the front cover - an unusual occurrence - and I had hard time to convince the Publisher to do it due to lack of printing space).

However, I am afraid all these obvious explanations would not satisfy the few persons who harbour some anti-this, anti-that feelings, who have some sort of agenda. These belong to the minority "club", whose "prominent" representant told me many years ago in Bucharest, as quoted, "why do you write about our aviation history? Why don't you write about Hungarian aviation instead?"

I am more than open and willing to have an academic debate on what's in the book, which would further our knowledge on the history of Rumanian military aviation. However, I have no patience left for those who are acting like “Gica contra”. That's why I keep telling them: "if what I wrote is not up to your liking, please write your own version of the topic", knowing that any reasonable explanations would be futile anyhow.

Everyone would be better off if more books were published, in English, on this highly interesting topic unfortunately still little known in the so-called "West". I will be among the first one to buy such a book and initiate a fair debate on it - right here, on this very forum.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Vranceanu May 11, 2011 07:02 pm
Dead cat, you do not understand or do not want to.
Ok, Denes was not forced to write about Vlaicu, but, in this case, he musn't write about the beginnings. Ok ? He could began with 1913... But, to not mention Vuia, for exemple, is like sombody write about american pioneers but do not mention Wright brothers ! If this is Ok to you, I have nothing to say.

Posted by: Vranceanu May 12, 2011 07:39 pm
I must say I respect and even admire Mr Denes Bernad, and this is not a personal attack.
He is for me a great author and his books are very wellcome, very usefull and rich in information.

Posted by: Dénes May 13, 2011 05:49 am
OK, issue closed.
Let's get back to Aurel Vlaicu, one of the greatest Rumanian aviation pioneers.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: cainele_franctiror May 14, 2011 05:40 am
... and Austro-Hungarian citizen ...like Vuia biggrin.gif

c'mon DDD, that's all you got? you can do more!

DDD = Daniel & Denes Direct

I have an ideea: why don't you write together a book? About Romanian born Austro/Hungarian citizens in Romanian Aeronautics. I have another name: Titus Pahone.

Posted by: C-2 May 14, 2011 11:11 am
Hahaha .
That's fun!

Posted by: RedBaron May 21, 2011 09:54 pm
Thanks for taking the time to reply with such details to my foolish comments. Now, at last, everything should be clear. The hair was split into 4 =)) =))

Final point on the matter being we are ROMANIA, not RUMANIA, not whatever... it is plain and simple. In theory both terms are correct (any many others for that matter) as I said initially, before the hair splitting...

I am pretty sure next time I go in Germany I will call them Allemangne or Duitsland (that is in Africaans for the hair splitters) or whatever accepted name I will come up with that is officially correct, so they will really respect me for naming them like that. If the Germans dont like it, I will say... hey - its correct so do not kick my... But wait, when I will go to Austria, yeah the Austrians are really open people when it comes to their country, so I will be sure to find a foreign/ancient term when speaking there and referring to Austria... yeah they really will appreciate it. Like hell they will smile.gif)

Ok this was my final point on the matter. Do not delete my message, it was my reply to some "arguments", my final reply, no matter what comes next smile.gif) I keep my word.

The work of Denes is appreciated, its not the first time I say it, but... its maybe just my narrow view on things, but when one is guest/host whatever on a forum and some people do find it bothering the use of a specific term... its kinda... I wouldnt use it anymore, out of respect if nothing else. But of course, I dont have a lot of "anglo-saxon" culture in me. Please do excuse me smile.gif

Posted by: Radub May 22, 2011 11:27 am
Maybe it would be easier for everyone if you clearly explained what exactly is wrong with the use of the word "Rumania" in English.
To all intents and purposes, the word is perfectly acceptable in English. I have no shadow of a doubt that if anyone were to hear/read the word "Rumania" in an English conversation/text he/she would know exactly what that meant.
I never came across a situation in which the word "Romania" symbolised only great things and the word "Rumania" symbolised only bad things.
It is evident that the word "Rumania" used in an English context causes you severe distress, but what is unclear is the reason why.
Radu

Posted by: Dénes May 22, 2011 01:28 pm
Radu, I suggest you las-o balta!

Apparently, people like RedBaron are not intereseted in actually learning, or opening their minds. They are actually feeding on controversy. They are enjoying the attention they get, as RedBaron confessed above. The more controversy they stirr, the better for them.

Forum trolls, as they say.

If one cannot comprehend that the English and Rumanian languages have nothing in common, the fact that the name of a particular country in the official language of that country has nothing to do with the name it was given to her in English, and the fact that the pronuntiation of Rumania with U is more common than with O if all non-Rumanian languages are considered, and spelling Rumania with a U is not "bad" to the image of the country - as it was clearly explained - it means that they are not here to learn, but rather to cause controversy and flame.

This off-topic discussion was closed a while ago and request was made by me to return to Aurel Vlaicu. Yet, after a couple of days of 'peace' it was stirred again, now yet again, just for the sake of stirring more controversy. Hence my advice, just las-o balta. I will try to do the same...

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: Radub May 22, 2011 03:59 pm
QUOTE (Dénes @ May 22, 2011 01:28 pm)
Radu, I suggest you las-o balta!

Agreed! wink.gif
Radu

Posted by: RedBaron May 30, 2011 08:12 pm
/noted the troll thing ("daca taceai filozof ramaneai"). I will see to reply to this another time since... now its back on topic

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