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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Awards & Badges > Fake Grand Cross Order of the Crown? |
Posted by: boonicootza November 08, 2004 01:16 pm |
This cased Order of the Crown Grand Cross is now on sale on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2283635062&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting It is my impression that the breaststar of the order is fake. It looks suspiciously new. There are some obvious differences betweetn this breaststar and the others i've seen so far. The most striking is the missing holes in the crown on the center medallion. The enamel is also different. ![]() There is also a difference in the arms of the cross: ![]() ![]() The neck badge seems good. Ofcourse, I may be wrong and this is a variant that i've never seen. So, what do you think? Peace! |
Posted by: boonicootza November 11, 2004 01:07 pm |
Oppinions? Anybody? Peace! |
Posted by: cipiamon November 11, 2004 07:34 pm |
Is clealy there are major fabric diferens between them, the golden border for example is thicker, see below. And why reason would they have to build an other matrice for the respective medal? A good dexplication can the fact that the "fake" one it was build later, who knows for what reason. |
Posted by: Carol I November 15, 2004 08:34 pm |
It eventually went under the hammer for 1035 USD. |
Posted by: Carol I November 16, 2004 10:26 pm |
Also on http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2284577310 is this Knight's Cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania. The swords seem to have a peculiar appearance. |
Posted by: Carol I November 16, 2004 10:28 pm |
The reverse of the swords seems to be completely flat. |
Posted by: cipiamon November 16, 2004 11:31 pm |
at that price, they shold do verry explicit pictures of it |
Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 18, 2004 03:51 pm |
In my humble opinion the breast star could be okay. There were a lot of manufacturers who had different enamel or dies . So I think it's not appropriate to consider that there is just one model , an all the others types should be the same. ![]() |
Posted by: mihai November 23, 2004 02:16 am | ||
This bidders is the collectoer of Grand cross of ant order in any countries. But this price is too high, Mihai p.s I list the scan of my collection of GK |
Posted by: cipiamon November 23, 2004 02:18 pm |
Different constructors build the same medal? Even on different matrices? That sounds strange, for example when they made coins it was done in the same fabric. |
Posted by: b737 November 23, 2004 04:26 pm | ||
Why do yo say that it's sounds strange????It was normal that orders where made by more than one manufacture !!!! For example , the order of the crown was made by: - Resch and sons in Bukarest - Heinrich Weiss in Bukarest - Zimmermann in Pforzheim-Germany -and from a lot of small manufactures (ceaprazarii ) |
Posted by: cipiamon November 23, 2004 05:41 pm |
I thoght it was strange because they produced different medals. |
Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 23, 2004 06:20 pm | ||
You can't compare the orders manufacturing with the coins stricking. There is no resemblance. The orders manufacturing is related rather to the jewellery then the coins stricking. |
Posted by: Carol I November 23, 2004 08:22 pm | ||||||
Resch did indeed make both first and second type badges of the Order of the Crown.
Did Weiss and Zimmermann manufacure first type badges?
Did they? Do you have any reference for this? |
Posted by: b737 November 24, 2004 08:50 am | ||||||||
Yes,H.Weiss made both models from this order! If Zimmermann have made also the first type?I dont't know! The initial question was if this order was made from more than one manufacture! I know from a good friend of mine , who's interest is more the historical orders documentation,that this small manufactures(ceaprazarii),have made also this order.You will find a lot of "strange looking" and unmarked pieces wich are NO FAKES,they were only made by this small manufactures!!!! I saw pieces made by: - Depozitul Decomed - Croitoria si ceaprazaria militara "La Principele Bibescu" - Carniol/Radivon..... And I have forget to mention the .....Monetaria Nationala (national mint)!!!!!! |
Posted by: b737 November 24, 2004 09:31 am |
I have found on the backside of a military magazine(revista infanteriei) from 1931 this advertising....! |
Posted by: Carol I November 24, 2004 11:19 am | ||||
Thanks for this information.
I have always thought that they manufactured only order cases, not the badges themselves. |
Posted by: b737 November 25, 2004 10:01 am |
I don't think that Resch and Weiss have ever used cases with a different logo for the orders they made. |
Posted by: boonicootza November 25, 2004 10:51 am |
The problem I see with this cased order is the difference between the neck badge and the breaststar. The seller said that it's marked by Resch. It is possible that the set was made up by joining the breaststar with the neck badge and the case. Maybe the breaststar was lost by the owner and this is a private purchase. Anyway it looks suspicious to me. Does anyone have a picture of a similar breaststar or one of a different maker than Resch? Peace |
Posted by: Carol I November 25, 2004 06:09 pm | ||
As far as I know, during the reign of King Carol II there was the rule (though not strictly enforced) that the orders had to be returned upon the death of the recipient. I therefore thought that "Depozitul Decomed" (i.e., Depozitul "Decoraţii şi medalii" - The Store for Decorations and Medals) manufactured cases for the orders that have been returned without the original case and which had to be presented to another person. But it is only a supposition and I could be wrong.
I think I have seen some cases when a Resch badge came in a case from the National Mint, but the question is whether the case was original or not. I agree however that no self-respecting jeweller would present his badge in a case made by someone else. |
Posted by: Carol I November 30, 2004 08:16 pm |
Interesting version (from eBay) of a first type Commander's cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania. The suspension ring seems to have some hallmarks. Any idea about the manufacturer?![]() ![]() |
Posted by: b737 November 30, 2004 09:29 pm | ||
Are you sure that this is a comander's cross? To me,it seems to be a grand cross. Ask the seeler about the size of this cross and for a better scan of the hallmarks. |
Posted by: Carol I November 30, 2004 11:19 pm | ||
Well, it seems to be a Commander's cross as it is said to have only 5 cm. Anyhow, the actual size of the cross is not that important. I was interested in the particular characteristics of this badge: small lettering on the white ribbon, tall letters on the red medallion etc. Do you know what manufacturer used them? |
Posted by: b737 December 01, 2004 10:44 am |
Well, then this is a strange type of a commander's badge.If you are looking at the ribbon ring you will see that he's made from a simple piece of wire!!The round ring with this size is tipical for the grand cross badges.The size of the badge is also strange!I have in my collection a knight's grade badge with allmoust the same size(4,8cm!!!). Consulting the book of N.T. Ionescu - Decortiunile Romane,ordine cruci si medalii,from 1915,the sizes for the badges are: -knight and officer - 40mm -commander and grand officer - 60mm -grand cross - 70mm Otherwise,I saw original badges with strange size,all of them made by this small manufactures or in case of my knight's badge by Lemaitre in Paris! |
Posted by: Carol I December 01, 2004 11:17 am | ||||||||||
I agree that the badge is strange from many points of view. Yet, the hallmarks seem to indicate that it is worked in silver. Was it then made in a small workshop or in a larger one of a renowned jeweller? Have you seen a similar badge before?
The size of the Maltese crosses is a tricky question. If you measure between the lower points of the horizontal arms you get less than if you measure the diameter (for example between the lower point of the left arm and the upper point of the right arm). In my opinion this could explain to a certain extent the differences between sizes quoted by various sources.
Do you happen to know how many such small workshops produced badges of the Romanian orders? Do you have a list for example? Do you know what are their distinctive characteristics?
Does your badge have any hallmarks? Could you post an image of the badge and the marks (or at least describe them)? Do you know when it was manufactured (before or after WWI)?
I am interested in consulting this book. Do you know how/where I may obtain a copy? Thanks. |
Posted by: b737 December 01, 2004 11:55 am |
Yes I saw similar badges, but not with this kind of ring!For me the size of a badge is the external diameter!Unfortunately I don't know how many workshops have produced orders/decorations.I think they were a lot of them.I don't even know if the manufacturing in Romania,was concentrated only in Bukarest ! My badge has no hallmarks but I have it from the son of the recipent-in original case and with the "brevet". It is a so called 1916 model.The 1916 model is a little bit "flowery" than the normal 1st type! For aditional information contact me on email. |
Posted by: Carol I December 02, 2004 08:28 pm |
Thanks for the information. I will contact you in private for details. |
Posted by: Carol I May 29, 2005 03:34 pm |
Authentic or fake? Grand Officer's star of the Order of the Crown of Romania ... ![]() ... but with rather poor quality reverse and no markings. ![]() From http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535264669 |
Posted by: boonicootza May 29, 2005 06:26 pm |
Original. It's mine ![]() The only thing I believe it's replaced it's the center piece on the back. |
Posted by: Carol I December 08, 2005 11:08 am |
I have seen this cross described as the "Order of the Crown of Romania for Ladies", in spite of being a Leopold cross than the traditional Maltese cross of the Order of the Crown of Romania. Could it rather be the Austrian Order of Leopold with which it shares both the shape and the colours?![]() |
Posted by: Carol I December 29, 2005 07:55 pm |
Is this cross genuine? The swords seem to be added rather clumsily. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7733697395 |
Posted by: Ahile December 29, 2005 10:58 pm |
FAKE have you bought this medal? ahile |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR December 30, 2005 02:12 am |
Looks good to me. Possibly late WW2 war time issue. A civil order modified later with sword attachments. They probably ran out of military issues at the end of the war and modified a civil piece. I really don't think that someone would fake a common inexpensive order. |
Posted by: Ahile December 30, 2005 10:16 am |
REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR , let me tell you something.This medal that is in the photo , I have seen it and I had it in my hand.It is a fake, sorry to disapoint you,only the case it original, or maybe the ribbon. AHILE |
Posted by: Carol I December 30, 2005 10:30 am | ||||
Why do you say this? What are the particulars that made you consider it a fake?
No, I did not. I just wanted to know whether it is a genuine piece or a fake and why it is either of these two. |
Posted by: b737 December 30, 2005 10:49 am | ||
This order is ok! Not every piece had the quality like from a jewelery made one! Regal Uniforma Collector has right, it is a late ww2 production maybe from the National Mint. |
Posted by: Ahile December 30, 2005 01:19 pm |
Thay is your opinion about this.Check some books to see haw it looks, or go to the National Military Museum. I have the same medal , but not in this kind of shape,even tje Carol trademark is diffrent.Sorry HAPPY NEW YEAR, Ahile |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR December 30, 2005 01:35 pm |
Towards the end of the war, medals and insignia became very crude in manufacture. There are many examples of cast pieces. During the 1920's we saw alot of cast insignia. During the 1930's and early 40's we had very fine jeweler made pieces. Carol 2 was a fanatic in looking good in uniform and the medals and badges reflected this. Late WW2, orders and insignia became crude and cast again. Probably due to shortage of money and materials. This also reflects on uniforms and swords of the same periods. |
Posted by: b737 December 30, 2005 03:44 pm | ||
Dear Ahile please don't trust to the books you have! I told you that I have also the complete literature regarding the romanian phaleristic! It is very far to be complete , full of mistakes and in some cases it would be better if the writers shouldn't print the book at all(catone, bedivan...)!!! Regal Uniforma Collector's argumentation is very good, it is also mine! You are too radical in your argumentation, you can belive us ... sometimes...:-) We are collectors with a lot of years of experience and study! I wish you also a Happy New Year! |
Posted by: dragos03 December 30, 2005 07:47 pm |
I also think this order is authentic. There are many variants of the Crown order. And unfortunately there was no attempt so far to study all these variants. |
Posted by: Carol I December 31, 2005 10:46 am |
One more piece: Order of the Crown with swords from WWI. Does the central crown have the usual shape? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6592542679 |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR January 01, 2006 01:26 am |
Today, I decided to go through my collection just to see how many different variations of the Knight's Cross of the Order of the Crown I have. So far, I have counted over 50 different variations. I see on Ebay and on other medals sites that there are even more variations available. It may be very difficult to catalog these variations. |
Posted by: Carol I January 01, 2006 07:14 pm | ||
Yes, this may be quite a difficult task, but on the other hand, we can use this thread to exclude the known variations that are definitely suspicious. |
Posted by: b737 January 02, 2006 03:48 pm |
a strange model from my collection http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 15, 2006 07:37 pm |
What do tou think about this piece, it's quite strange because the back of King Carol's emblem is flat. What do you think? http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 15, 2006 07:37 pm |
http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 16, 2006 03:56 am | ||
Made in France. |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 16, 2006 04:00 am | ||
I beleive this piece to have been made in the late 1800's. The white enamel has a lot of black specs in it. These imperfections were typical of early made pieces. |
Posted by: Carol I March 16, 2006 07:47 am | ||
I have seen a similar piece before. Look for hallmarks on the suspension ring. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 10:40 am |
Is it a good piece? What period is it ? It's made by "Resch" *(this is written on the box). |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 10:44 am |
Is it from the 1900's, 1920's ore late 1930's ? |
Posted by: Carol I March 16, 2006 11:03 am | ||
Did you find a hallmark on the suspension ring? What was it? |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 12:21 pm |
No it isn't marked. ![]() |
Posted by: Carol I March 16, 2006 12:27 pm | ||
This means the badge is not made in silver. Can you please post an image of the box as well? It might give an indication about the period. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 12:52 pm |
Here is the box. http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 12:55 pm |
http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 16, 2006 01:27 pm |
The box and order is of the WW1 period. The blue ribbon 1920's period. Probably awarded and issued in the 1920's, but made earlier around WW1. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 16, 2006 02:45 pm |
Thanks REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR |
Posted by: Carol I March 16, 2006 05:13 pm | ||
I have always thought this type of boxes was characteristic to the pre-WWI period or maybe even earlier. |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 01:26 am |
You are also correct by saying this box could be pre-WW1 period. I compare the box with the style made for Imperial Russian orders during WW1 and it is very similar in construction, style and color. |
Posted by: Carol I March 18, 2006 02:49 pm | ||||
If the badge is however made in silver it might indicate a piece older than 1906. |
Posted by: Carol I March 18, 2006 02:53 pm | ||
I think that had the box been made in Russia during WWI, then it would be more likely to sport the cipher of King Ferdinand than that of Carol I. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 March 18, 2006 04:27 pm |
Commander's Cross for Civil, 1st model (1881). Marked "JRF" (Joseph Resch). Extremly rare model with Carol I cipher in the center instead of the crown. http://imageshack.us Do you know more info about it ? Source:La galerie numismatique Auction III |
Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 18, 2006 05:38 pm | ||
What makes this commander cross extremly rare ??? In my oppinion is an ordinary commander's cross. The medalion was changed with other one from the model II. |
Posted by: b737 March 18, 2006 06:52 pm | ||||
Its a "transition" piece from 1932, after King Carol2's reform! They have used old pieces from the stock and have replaced only the crown! Maybe an emergency piece until the new model was estabilished.They are also breaststars with caracteristics from both models.Indeed, this kind of pieces are rare. |
Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 23, 2006 06:23 pm |
You can be right , but also someone with not too many skils could replace the crown with the cypher. I think is a 10 minutes job. All you need is to have the both models. |
Posted by: Carol I October 19, 2006 03:56 pm |
A Commander's Cross with odd-looking lettering on the reverse (from eBay)![]() |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 April 20, 2007 06:00 pm |
What can you tell me about this Crown of Romania: the period??? It's quite a strange piece. http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 April 20, 2007 06:02 pm |
http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: Cuza April 21, 2007 01:57 pm |
Early issues of the Order of the Crown in Knight, Officer and Commander had a flower or floral type design between the top of the topmost arm and the circular piece holding the ribbon ring. |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR April 21, 2007 03:10 pm | ||
In my experience, the floral suspension on the ribbon ring indicates a WW1 period made piece. Other characteristics of the tapered edge of the arms on the cross indicate foreign Manufacture, possibly French or Austrian. Earlier versions of the cross are indicated by impurities in the white enamel. Example black specs are found in the white enamel. This would indicate 1870's-1880's period. |
Posted by: Cuza April 21, 2007 11:19 pm |
Floral topped commander with poor white enamel and non-Romanian manufacture. What do you think RUC? http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR April 22, 2007 05:26 pm |
A nice heavy and early piece. I have one identical to this. The ribbon loop on my piece has 2 assay stamps on it, But I cannot make them out under a magnifier. Crude or not very well stamped. As for which country ? My guess is French Manufacture, but this is only a guess. |
Posted by: mabadesc June 26, 2007 03:19 pm |
I'd like to get your opinion on these two orders. Time of manufacture, any particularities? Thanks. The first one: http://imageshack.us http://imageshack.us The second one: http://imageshack.us http://imageshack.us |
Posted by: boonicootza June 26, 2007 05:06 pm |
I think that the first one, knight with swords, is made by the national mint, typical ww2 construction. Both are originals in my opinion. |
Posted by: mabadesc June 27, 2007 04:45 am | ||
Thanks for your feedback, Boonicutza! I didn't have any doubts about their being original - they were awarded to family members (unfortunately, all dead by now) and have been in the family ever since. However, I didn't know one of them was ww2 construction, and I didn't know who the manufacturer was. About the one with swords - any idea if it was early ww2 or late ww2 construction? About the other one - what do you think: pre-ww1, ww1, or pre-ww2? One more thing: any particularities or unusual design that you can spot? Something to note: the one with swords clearly looks like it has had the swords tips and handles added to a medal which was originally minted or manufactured without swords. I remember earlier in this thread, someone showed a similar example (with "added" swords) and thought that this meant that the order was fake. Since the one I posted is not a fake - guaranteed - I guess this proves that the other example shown earlier was also original. Your help is appreciated. Thanks. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 June 27, 2007 09:49 am | ||
This is a second model Crown of Romania 1932-1947, Knight. |
Posted by: Claudiu1988 September 09, 2008 03:29 pm |
Who made this order of the crown?? It's quite strange, the big crown in the center. It's from Okazii http://imageshack.us http://g.imageshack.us/img137/64674561sk7.jpg/1/ |