| Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format |
| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Royal Navy > VVS-ChF attacks on Romanian ships |
| Posted by: Victor September 06, 2005 05:24 pm |
| I am trying to determine which Soviet units (presumably belonging to VVS-ChF) made the following attacks: -17 April 1944: several bombers damaged the cargoship Oituz in the vicinity of Sf. Gheorghe -18 April 1944: 6 Pe-2s (maybe of 40 BAP?) severely damaged the Alba Iulia Hopefully Miroslav Morozov is still logging on from time to time. |
| Posted by: Michal September 08, 2005 07:50 pm |
| Attackers were probably planes of 5. GMTAP and 36. MTAP ChF. Both attacks are described from Soviet view in chapter Победы и утраты of book Минаков В.И. Гневное небо Тавриды. — М.: ДОСААФ, 1985. According to this memoirs, on April 17 1944 recce found two convoys (one of them consists of 2 transport ships (1000 t, 2000 t), 1 minesweeper, 4 patrol boats; second one consists of 1 transport ship, 4 escort ships) First convoy was attacked by 4 Il-4 (5. GMTAP) which took-off at 10.30 and result was 1 sunken ship Second convoy was attacked by A-20 Boston (36. MTAP) and result was damaged ship. on April 18 1944 recce found out convoy consists of 3 transport ships, 1 destroyer, 1 patrol boat 300 kilometers out of Sadovsk. After 12 o´clock 4 Il-4 (5.GMTAP) and 5 A-20G Boston (36.MTAP) attacked convoy and damaged one transport (6000 t). Soviet planes attacked convoys two times more and result was all transport ships were damaged. But it is need to say that Soviet literature upon WW2 are usually not correct and there is lot of untrue. |
| Posted by: Victor September 09, 2005 01:31 pm |
| Yes, it is true that not as many ships as they were claimed were sunk, but at least you cleared up what airplanes made the two attacks: -Oituz - A-20s of 36 MTAP -Alba Iulia - 4 Il-4s of 5 GMTAP and 5 A-20Gs of 36 MTAP Thank you. |
| Posted by: Miroslav Morozov October 01, 2005 10:13 pm |
| Hello, Victor! Oituz was damaged by six Pe-2 40 BAP at 11.00 17 April (Moscow time) at 45.25 N/30.50 E. Alba Julia damaged by eight A-20 (four as skip-bombers, three made only straffing attack, one - foto recon) from 13 GDBAP (guard long-range air regiment). Two A-20s shot downed by flak. The attack was made at 13.11 18 April in 43.48 N/31.26 E. Regards, Miroslav |
| Posted by: Victor October 02, 2005 05:56 am |
| Thank you, Miroslav. I will make the corrections to the article on Operation 60,000. |
| Posted by: Miroslav Morozov October 02, 2005 08:43 pm |
| Hello, Victor! I red your article Operation "60,000" – 1944 with great interest. I should congratulate you – the great job! I worked on this theme for some years and published my own article in the Russian navy history magazine in 2000 year. It is very pity that you didn’t use information from the German (like KTB SKL, KTB Admiral of Schwarz meer, KTB 10th Sicherungs division) and Russian sources. So I want to sent you some of my comments: 1. M-35 didn’t attack and hit Ossag on 23.4.1944. She unsuccessfully attacked UJ-103 when she sailed towards Ossag from Sevastopol. The attack was located by Germans. 2. M-35 didn’t received any damages on 23.4.1944. The German Uj-103 dropped only two dc. The sub returned to the base on 25.4.1944 and on 29.4.1944 sailed for the next patrol. 3. The VVS of ChF didn’t loss any plane in attacks on Ossag and Uj-103 on 23.4.1944. The only real losses of VVS on that day – a Pe-2 and a P-39 in the morning attack on the convoy (probably, with Danubius, Budapest and Totila) in the entrance of Sebastopol. 4. The returning convoy with Danubius (24.4.1944) was attacked by A-20 of 13 GDBAP not for the four, but only one time – at 10.45-10.48 (Moscow time) with 12 A-20 (6 skip-bomber, 5 strafing planes, 1 photo-recon plane). An A-20 shot downed by flak. 5. PTA-406 wasn’t seriously damaged by VVS and immobilized on 26.4.1944. By the German documents her crew escaped during the air attack and later was picked up from the water by the German R-boat. – Please, see my attachment (KTB of 10th division). 6. Erzherzog Karl received her damages not on 2 May, but on 4 May. On 2 May the VVS didn’t acted at all due to the very bad weather (very low fog). 7. Junak was sunk by 9 A-20 from 13 GDBAP, not by Pe-2 from 40 BAP. 8. Sch-201 didn’t finish Geiserich, because Sch-201 missed heavily damaged Tisza from the another convoy. 9. A-5 didn’t finish Durostor – Durostor sunk some minutes after bombs’ hits. Really A-5 missed Kassa from the another convoy. 10. The real losses of VVS ChF during the operation (8.4-12.5.1944): Il-4 – 7 combat, 3 non-combat, Pe-2 - 1 combat, 3 non-combat, A-20G - 9 combat, 8 non-combat, A-20B – 6 combat, Il-2 - 14 combat, 5 non-combat, P-39 - 2 combat, 1 non-combat, P-40 - 4 combat, 1 non-combat, Yak-9 - 4 combat, 1 non-combat, Lagg-3 – 1 non-combat, MBR-2 – 1 non-combat. In all – 47 combat, 24 non-combat. Ships losses – L-6, TKA-332 and TKA-302 (struck a drifting mine in night search off Sebastopol on 9.5.1944). Regards, Miroslav |
| Posted by: Victor October 03, 2005 01:35 pm |
| Thank you for the feedback and I will make modifications to the article. I used what I had at hand. The Koslinski&Stanescu book uses Soviet sources, although probably outdated. Thus the info regarding the damaging of M-35 is mentioned as taken from V. I. Dimitriev Atakuiut Podvodniki, VIMOSSR, Moscow, 1964. According to Romanian sources, PTA 406 was hit by two bombs and immobilized. The agitated sea prevented Rb 37 from towing the pontoon and crew was evacuated by the R-boot. One man drowned during the operation (master gunner Lazar Staicu). A tug and a R-boot were later sent from Sevastopol to bring it in. It was found only on 27 April by a seaplane and towed to the port, where it was repaired. And now the questions: 1. From the 47 aircraft lost in action during the operation, how many were lost to flak from the ships and how many were shot down by fighters? 2. Do you have any more info on the aircraft that sank the Ossag? Type, numbers, units? |
| Posted by: Miroslav Morozov October 03, 2005 05:38 pm |
| 1. The losses in air battles were: 1 Il-4, 2 A-20G, 2 Il-2, 2 P-40, 2 Yak-9, but planes, which MIA (3 Il-4, 6 A-20B, 3 Il-2, 2 P-39, 1 P-40, 2 Yak-9) usually suffered the same fate. Losses by flak were: 1 Pe-2, 5 A-20G, 4 Il-2. The rest lost planes crashed due to the different combat damages. 2. Ossag served as a target for some attacks: 22.4.1944 (Moscow time): 09.30 – 13 Il-2 of 47th ShAP – missed, no own losses. 09.50 – 18 Il-2 of 8th GShAP – missed, 1 Il-2 lost in air battle. 10.31 – 12 A-20G (8 skip-bombers) of 13th GDBAP – Ossag heavily damaged by at least one hit in the bow and began to sink. 2 A-20 shot downed by fighters, the third fell in the sea by unknown reason (probably, by motor failure). 12.10 – 6 Pe-2 of 40th BAP – missed, no own losses. about 15.00 – 6 Pe-2 of 40th BAP – as above. 18.40 – 16 Il-2 of 8th GShAP and 47 ShAP – some hits in tanker, no own losses. 23.4.1944 12.40 – 5 A-20 of 36 MTAP (level bombers) – missed, no own losses, 6 P-39 shot downed an Ju-88 from German fighter escort (confirmed by German KTBs). 12.51 – 13 A-20 13 GDBAP (skip-bombers) attacked Uj-103 – heavily damaged. 17.02 – Ossag sunk by R-boats. By the German dates she had nine hits by this time. 18.32 – 6 Il-2 of 47 ShAP attacked Uj-103 – new damages by straffing. Regards, Miroslav |
| Posted by: Victor October 05, 2005 03:39 pm |
| Thank you for your co-operation. I have made modifications according to the corrections you pointed out. |