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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Eastern Front (1941-1944) > Soviet evacuation of Odessa |
| Posted by: MMM December 09, 2011 04:37 pm |
| Some "old news" on the Historia front: the October issue has a story called "Odessa was not conquered by the Romanians, it was evacuated by the Soviets", from the memories of a certain Dumitru Arapu, artilerry lieutenant. Finally, I've seen the awful truth printed in bold letters! |
| Posted by: Dénes December 09, 2011 07:44 pm |
| This sentence has some truth (un simbure de adevar)... Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: dragos December 09, 2011 10:30 pm |
| The evacuation was ordered when it was clear that Odessa was going to fall after a long and bloody fight. If the sentence is given as a summary, it's simply false as it implies that Odessa fell without fighting. I doubt the Soviets would have given the title of Hero City to a city that was served on a plate to the enemy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_city |
| Posted by: Radub December 10, 2011 08:23 am |
There is a saying: "When you wrestle a gorilla, you do not stop when you get tired, you stop when it gets tired." The Odessans got tired first.  That applies to any siege. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM December 10, 2011 08:39 am |
| It's not that simple! Odessa was evacuated due to the German threat to Crimeea; otherwise, as it was seen, the Romanian troops (with the small German help they had) would have just bled to death in the trenches! The proof is the succesful counter-attack issued by the Red Army to mask the retreat intention. Nobody ever implied that Odessa fell without a fight! Simply there wouldn't have been any use for maintaining it and let Sebastopol fall - which didn't happen until July 1942, more than half a year AFTER Odessa's conquest. And without the Soviet reinforcements used there, perhaps Odessa would have fallen from September or so; in the meantime, the Romanian reinforcements were almost absent! About the gorilla, Radu, it seems that in this particular case it managed to pull out an arm (and a leg) of the Romanian assailant; so, before getting tired, perhaps it (the gorilla, that is) would have ripped the head of, as well!  |
| Posted by: Dénes December 10, 2011 09:56 am | ||
Not necessarily. The evacuation was ordered when priorities of the Stavka shifted (i.e., the defence if Crimea became strategically more important). The Soviet decision makers were not particularly reknown for evacuating a key city just because pressure by the enemy was mounting. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: MMM December 10, 2011 12:00 pm | ||
So, in other words, the Wehrmacht finally conquered Odessa when it entered the Crimea!!!!!!  When we look at the number of victims from each side, questions begin (well, they begun back then, actually...) to rise. Yet few were found responsible, as the main reason for this "Romanian-only" siege was Antonescu's will to proove to Hitler the worthiness of the Romanian army, to "wash" the shame of 1940's retreats and so on... |
| Posted by: dragos December 10, 2011 02:25 pm | ||||
I did not say that the evacuation was ordered because it was going to fall, but when it was clear it was going to fall, under the simultaneous pressure on Odessa itself and on Crimea. Indeed, Soviets estimated that they could not defend both Crimea and Odessa in the same time, and given the fact the home of Soviet Black Fleet base was then Crimea, the decision to evacuate Odessa came on 30 September / 1 October. This decision came after a long siege, but the Romanian troops were slowly closing in and outcome was predictable. The evolution of many battles was related to fronts elsewhere, so it's like saying that the Battle of Kursk was lost by the Germans because Hitler cancelled the offensive due to Allied landings in Sicily, although more honest is to say that the offensive was progressing miserably and was going nowhere. |
| Posted by: MMM December 10, 2011 03:35 pm |
| And yet the counter-attack mounted by the Red Army was quite succesful - so, given the rate of Romanian losses (some divisions remained at less than 20% fighting capacity from June), given the fact that both on sea and in the air we (Romanians) did not have the superiority much-needed, given the fact that the besieged received far more supplies and reinforcements than the Romanian Army, well, I wouldn't be so sure about the outcome! |
| Posted by: dragos December 10, 2011 04:11 pm |
| The main defense belt was penetrated and the Odessa harbor was in range of Romanian heavy artillery, so it was a matter of time. The last strong Soviet counter-attack was to divert attention from the evacuation. It's hard to believe OKW would have allowed such a obstacle behind for an undetermined amount of time, looking how the events unfolded in 1942. So even if it took German units being redeployed there, the mop up was necessary to secure the Fall Blau operation. We can speculate a lot but the fact remains that over the entire operation the Romanian army progressed constantly towards Odessa albeit with stalls and heavy losses. The situation was not changing at the moment the evacuation was decided. |
| Posted by: MMM December 10, 2011 07:10 pm |
| I do not disagree, but: 1) there was some German support, which was about to increase if Odessa didn't fell; 2) the Romanian troops would have simply waned away if no replacements were issued in a matter of weeks; 3) the Romanian army (and its operations) was just a fragment of OKW's plans for the Eastern Front, so the ultimate decision was not in our hands. |
| Posted by: dragos December 11, 2011 03:38 pm | ||
What do you base this affirmation on? On 25 September three new divisions have been put at the disposition of the 4th Army and the ratio of forces was constantly favorable to Romanian troops and increasing throughout the operation from 2.8/1 at the beginning to 3.1/1 in the end. |
| Posted by: MMM December 12, 2011 08:15 am |
| First of all, I shall address this issue in a more documented manner in the next days; right now, from what I recall, most of the divisions were at about 25 to 35% of their fighting capacity (L.E. - in the moment of "conquering"). Above all, Odessa shown the severe limitation of the Romanian Army logistics' department, because supplies and reinforcements were too scarce for such a close destination (compared to what followed the next year...)! |
| Posted by: MMM December 18, 2011 02:04 pm |
| First of all, I shall admit that "waning away" was quite an overstatement, based on a confusion of mine: the "Situation of the monthly effectives of the army starting from 01.09.1940", whose copy I have, has a drop in numbers from 703.055 (total effectives) to 668.380, from July to September 1941; I inadvertently remember the drop as going to 509.180, which was the case in December, after demobilisation... Second, the losses among officers were really high, the losses at 4-th Army alone being (from June 22) of 4.599 frrom a total of 4.821! The numbers were as follows: 324.647 involved, of which 98.156 losses: 17.729 KIA 63.345 WIA 11.471 MIA Quite a lot... at least until Stalingrad!  |
| Posted by: guina December 19, 2011 03:01 pm |
| BTW,in the recent russian movie " Jajda" { dir. A. Kolmogorov,2011 ),which depicts the siege of Odessa,the moment when the soviet command realized that the fate of the city is sealed, is the start of romanian artilery bombardments of the port. Well,its a movie...but.. |
| Posted by: MMM December 19, 2011 05:08 pm |
| The Soviet Command of Odessa, I presume... But the real decision factor would've been (it was actually) the Supreme Command, aka STAVKA, aka Stalin! |
| Posted by: guina December 19, 2011 05:39 pm |
| Yeap,local command. |
| Posted by: Petre December 19, 2011 08:46 pm |
| From a russian memorialistic (e-)book : Rear-admiral Jukov informed us he received the Directive of Stavka of the Supreme Command for the evacuation of Odessa, and he read it: "Due to the threat of loss of the Crimea, the main base of the Black Sea Fleet, and to the fact that at present the army is not able to simultaneously defend the Crimean peninsula and the Odessa Defense Area, Stavka of the Supreme Command decided to evacuate the ODA and with its troops to strengthen the defense of the Crimean peninsula. Stavka orders : 1. Bravely and honestly fulfilled their mission, the soldiers and the commanders of the ODA, in the shortest time evacuate the troops from the Odessa area on the Crimean peninsula. 2. Commander of the 51. Separate Army - put all the forces of the army to keep the Arabat Spit, the Chongar Isthmus, the southern coast of Sivash and the positions in Ishun until the arrival of the troops from the ODA. 3. Commander of the Black Sea Fleet - proceed to the transfer from Odessa troops, material and equipment to the ports of the Crimea: Sevastopol, Yalta and Feodosia, or other suitable places. 4. Commander of the Black Sea Fleet and Commander of the ODA - to plan the troops disengagement from combat, their cover and the transfer, with a particular attention to mentain of both flanks of the defense till the end of the evacuation. 5. Commander of the ODA - all which can not be evacuated ( weapons, equipments and plants, communications and provisions ) must destroy, by designating responsible persons. 6. On landing in Crimea, the troops of ODA will subordinate to the 51. Army. 7. To confirm the preparation and the execution." Stavka of the Supreme Command I.Stalin B.Shaposhnikov |
| Posted by: Dénes December 19, 2011 09:04 pm | ||
That's exactly what I've said earlier. Thanks for posting the source, Petre. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: dragos December 19, 2011 10:17 pm |
| But what is the source? Indeed, here is an excerpt from N. Krylov, Defence of Odessa 1941   However all this "splitting the hair in four" discussion seems to sound like: unless there was some bloody street fighting in Odessa and the Soviets fought to the last man then Romanian troops did not conquered Odessa, which is childish IMO. Some points to consider: - Early in the war the German doctrine advocated to avoid urban fighting and to besiege and bomb the cities into surrender. This changed as the war progressed and Hitler became more and more involved into direct military strategy. - Battle for Odessa means more than fall of the city itself. It was an entire operation along the southernmost Easter Front. It's like the Battle of Kiev, no major urban struggle, but major blow for the Soviets with some 400,000 captured. Of course, the Romanian victory pales in comparison because of the the amount of losses sustained to achieve objective. - The Battle of Odessa was the largest independent military operation carried by an ally of Germany on the Eastern Front. |
| Posted by: Petre December 20, 2011 09:40 am |
| Sorry ! I was rushed and I missed : Ilya Ilyich Azarov, "Besieged Odessa", 1962 The author of the memoirs I. Azarov was member of the Military Council of Odessa Defense Region. The Directive of Stavka no. 002454. to the COs of BlackSea Fleet, Odessa Defense Area, 51.Separate Army and the People,s Commissar of the Navy, on the evacuation of the ODA Sept.30, 1941/ 01.10 - here : http://www.oboznik.ru/?p=9846 From the same book : With the loss of Crimea, we can lose Odessa too, because the supply from Caucasus, if the enemy captures the Crimean airfields, would be almost impossible. The Military Council of the Sov. Navy reported the situation in Stavka and made suggestions : while the fights in Crimea are at Perekop, it is possible an orderly withdrawal of troops from Odessa and to strengthen with them the defense of Crimea. The loss of Odessa, as reported by the Military Council of the Sov. Navy, if we manage to keep Crimea – is the lesser evil. The demands of the Fleet Military Council were accepted. Now our challenge is the best implement of Stavka Directive. (...) The loss of Crimea will entail the loss of Odessa. Sea communication will be under the constant air attacks of the enemy. He immediately will bring his aircraft in Crimea. The tragedy is that there is no force that could deter the enemy. The 51-th Army is unable to ... |
| Posted by: MMM December 20, 2011 04:29 pm | ||
I never implied we didn't actually conquer Odessa! I also do not wish to cast any shadow upon the Romanian Army, including its performances at the Odessa action. I am aware, though, of the fact that the decision and the very moment of the actual conquering of the city belonged to the Soviet authorities - THAT was my point! Nobody ever said that Odessa was conquered without a battle or anything like that! As for the splitting the hair, I think a consistent number of threads on this forum fit the description very well...  Some comrades have even surpassed 2.000+ posts by splitting hairs!!!Oh, one last thing about the independent action: some German troops participated along the Romanian ones; the planning of the operation, purely Romanian, showed the results quite adequately, when we also have to see the replacement of commanders because of their attitude - see General Ciupercă! It's loke we really wanted to buy a candy just for ourselves, but when we finally managed to do it, the price was too high, the candy was out-of-date and the Wehrmacht pretty much wanted a taste as well!  My guess is that Odessa was a pretty good lesson for all the sides involved, but only the Red Army understood it in time! |
| Posted by: udar April 21, 2012 06:59 am |
| What was the actual German involvement, something like an infantry regiment and two artilery batteries or so? It wasnt something significant, or to make any big diference. If we go on that line, the Romanian participation in Crimeea (and even Caucasus) was procentual way bigger and much important compared with German involvement in Odessa assault. |
| Posted by: Dénes April 21, 2012 07:40 am |
| Don't forget the Luftwaffe. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: udar April 22, 2012 07:36 am | ||
And how big was the Luftwaffe involvement there? More then one or two Stukas squadrons? |
| Posted by: Dénes April 22, 2012 02:08 pm |
| Definitely yes, because the Rumanians did not have any Stukas at that time. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Victor April 22, 2012 06:10 pm | ||||
KG 27 Boelcke KG 51 Edelweiss II./JG 77 The latter was moved from the sector on 28 August. In September, III./StG 77 was brought in to support the anti-shipping raids and they did manage to sink one destroyer and damage several others. So two flotillas and 2 groups. |
| Posted by: udar April 23, 2012 08:30 pm | ||||||
I see, thanks for answers to everyone. So, what was the exact number of airplanes involved? I just want to see how important this was, because the German ground troops involved wasnt at all significant as far as i know (related to their number). |