1. Communist
2. Atheistic Jewish Bessarabians
3. Evil Jews born only to conspire against the national aspirations of Greater Upper Uber Romania ?
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Eastern Front (1941-1944) > soviet ultimatum to Romania |
| Posted by: solingen January 09, 2004 09:17 am |
| Does anyone know where can I find the text of the soviet ultimatum to Romania in 1940 and the romanian answer to it ? |
| Posted by: dragos January 09, 2004 03:12 pm |
| The ultimative Soviet note delivered to Romanian Government on 26 June 1940:
"In anul 1918, profitand de slabiciunea momentana a Rusiei Tariste, Romania a ocupat in mod injust si abuziv teritoriul Basarabiei, distrugand astfel unitatea organica si seculara a acestei provincii cu restul Rusiei. Uniunea Sovietica nu a recunoscut niciodata si sub nici o forma aceasta rapire savamolnica. Necesitatea de a intretine bune relatii politice in aceasta parte a Europei si actuala situatie internationala cer o solutionare imediata a acestei probleme in litigiu. Uniunea Sovietica considera oportun si necesar ca Basarabia sa fie restituita imediat, iar - pe de alta parte - cere sa i se cedeze Nordul Bucovinei, care reprezinta o unitate organica cu restul teritoriilor locuite de ucrainieni. In acelasi timp, cedarea acestei regiuni din Bucovina constituie o compensatie justa pentru repararea nedreptatii savarsita prin stapanirea abuziva a Basarabiei timp de 22 de ani. In consecinta guvernul U.R.S.S. pretinde: 1) Cedarea imediata a Basarabiei. 2) Cedarea imediata a Nordului Bucovinei. Guvernul sovietic isi exprima speranta ca Guvernul Regal Roman va gasi oportun sa se ajunga la o solutionare pasnica a acestui conflict si asteapta raspunsul cuvenit in cadrul zilei de 27 iunie 1940." "In the year 1918, taking advantage of the momentarily weakness of the Tzarist Russia, Romania has occupied in an unjust and abusive manner the territory of Bessarabia, thus destroying its natural and secular unity with the body of Russia. Soviet Union never conceded, in any form, this abusive seizing. The necessity to maintain good political relations in this part of Europe and the actual international situation require an immediat solving of this problem. Soviet Union considers it is opportunely and necessarily that Bessarabia to be immediately retroceded, and - on the other hand - it demands that Northern Bukovina, which is an organic part of the territories inhabited by ukrainians, to be ceded. In the same time, the ceding of this region of Bukovina represents a just compensation in regard of reparations for the abusive possession of Bessarabia for 22 years. In consequence, the USSR government demands: 1) The immediat ceding of Bessarabia. 2) The immediate ceding of Northern Bukovina. The Soviet government express its hope that Romanian Royal Government will consider a peaceful solution to this conflict and awaits the answer during the day of June 27, 1940." -------- Romanian Royal Government's response on 27 June 1940: "Guvernul Regal Roman, insufletit de dorinta de a solutiona in mod pasnic conflictul dintre Romania si U.R.S.S., roaga guvernul sovietic sa desemneze data si locul, pentru a se intruni plenipotentiarii celor doua tari spre a examina nota guvernului sovietic." "Romanian Royal Government, willing to find a peaceful solution to this conflict between Romania and USSR, solicits Soviet Government to specify the time and the place for the meeting of official representatives, in order to discuss on the Soviet Government's note." -------- The second ultimative note of the Soviet Government: "Guvernul U.R.S.S. ia act de dorinta Romaniei de a solutiona pasnic conflictul si cere: 1) In terment de 4 zile, cu incepere de la 28 iunie 1940 ora 12 (ora Moscovei), teritoriul Basarabiei si al Bucovinei de Nord va fi evacuat de trupele si autoritatile romane. 2) Pe de alta parte, in mod succesiv, acelasi teritoriu va fi luat in stapanire de catre fortele Armatei Rosii. 3) La 28 iunie 1940, fortele Armatei Rosii vor ocupa punctele Cernauti, Chisinau si Cetatea Alba. 4) Autoritatile romane vor trebui sa predea in perfecta stare si in intregime: caile ferate, depozitele de orice fel, intreprinderile industriale etc. 5) Se va constitui o comisiune mixta plenipotentiara care va reglementa formalitatile predarii. Guvernul sovietic asteapta raspunsul Guvernului Regal Roman pana la data de 28 iunie 1940, ora 12 (ora Moscovei)." "The government of USSR has taken note of Romania's decision to solve the conflict peacefully, and demands: 1) In 4 days, beginning with June 28, 1940, 12:00 hours (Moscow time), Romanian troops and authorities will be evacuated from the territories of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina . 2) In the same time, the same territories will be successively taken over by the Red Army's forces. 3) On June 28, 1940, the Red Army will take control of the following centres: Cernauti, Kishinev, Cetatea Alba. 4) Romanian authorities will have to give in the railroads, depots of any kind, factories etc in perfect working condition. 5) A mixed commission of officials will be constituted to regulate the process of surrendering. The Soviet Government awaits the answer of Romanian Royal Government until June 28, 1940, 12:00 hours (Moscow time)." |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 09, 2004 03:51 pm |
| I've read this before, but I still can't believe the bastards gave us 4 DAYS to clear the whole province.
Do you know of any type of material we had to abandon? What about the stuff we were able to bring to Romania in these 4 days? |
| Posted by: dragos January 09, 2004 05:23 pm |
| After the start of evacuation, Soviet troops acted as during an offensive, hurrying to capture as many Romanian military and material as posible. They catched Romanian columns from behind, dropped paratroopers to capture key positions (Reni, Bolgrad, Frecatei) and block the retreat of Romanians, and even advanced beyond the new demarcation line on Romanian territory. Thousands of Romanian military were captured, including 282 officers. Some were killed. Even the official representative of Romanian Government that had to meet the Soviet representatives at Cernauti was taken prisoner. Russian sources mention the capture of 52,704 rifles, 298 artillery pieces and huge amounts of ammunition. A document of Romanian General Headquarters reported in the same time that in most Bessarabian towns bands of armed communist jews shot functionaries of public institutions, and also military personnel. |
| Posted by: PanzerKing January 09, 2004 11:19 pm |
| No wonder Romania was so eager to claim back these territories. I would have done the same. |
| Posted by: johnny_bi January 09, 2004 11:33 pm |
| Pretty tough ultimatum .... :| |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 13, 2004 09:13 pm |
| >A document of Romanian General Headquarters reported in the same time that in most Bessarabian towns bands of armed communist jews shot functionaries of public institutions
Well, how did they actually distinguish bands of armed communists from bands of armed communist jews at the General Headquarters ? The story ressembles the burning of the Reichstag. That's the sort of stuff which occult facts to replace them with dubious political statements. |
| Posted by: dragos January 13, 2004 09:31 pm |
| Source: Ministry of Defense Archives, fond 948, Section 2, file #941, page 558
Also: Jewish population from everywhere had a hostile and defying attitude, insulting functionaries, assassinating some of them, robing treasuries of state institutions and carrying the worse actions. Source: MoD Archives, file #155, page 3. |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 14, 2004 01:09 am |
| [quote]Well, how did they actually distinguish bands of armed communists from bands of armed communist jews at the General Headquarters ?[/quote]
Chander, I realize the statement from the General Headquarters sounds a bit strange, if not anti-semitic, but I've read literally hundreds of communiques from various division headquarters and even accounts from soldiers referring to similar events. You can argue that some people within the government or high-ranking officials were using anti-semitic propaganda, but I doubt that all field officers and soldiers were also anti-semitic. I know it sounds strange, but in the '30's and '40's, through the end of the war, the majority of Romanian communists also happened to be jewish. Perhaps this was a natural reaction for them in joining the Soviets against the German/Nazi threat. I'm not passing negative judgement in either direction, here. I'm just stating what seems to have been a trend and a fact, especially with the jewish population from Bessarabia. If you have any opinions on the matter, I'd certainly like to hear them. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 14, 2004 02:40 am |
| [quote]If you have any opinions on the matter, I'd certainly like to hear them.[/quote]
Well, I'm simply not impressed by the sources. Given the rampant anti semitism in Europe at the time, a statement from the defense department stating it's all the Jews fault, ha ha. Clever guys managed to discover that the attackers had Jewish blood amidst the shooting, smoke and confusion. False or true anyway what piece of information is really meaningfull and critical ? 1. the offenders were communist 2. the offenders were Jewish Did these people act offensively because of their communist political leaning or did they offend because of their race ? Are the causes political or racial ? Ask yourself the question and draw the conclusions on that severely loaded little sentence. |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 14, 2004 04:46 am |
| [quote]Well, I'm simply not impressed by the sources. Given the rampant anti semitism in Europe at the time, a statement from the defense department stating it's all the Jews fault, ha ha. [/quote]
As I previously stated, this was not limited to one statement from the Defense Department. I'll be glad to post tons of incident reports from soldier sentry "Joe Nobody" (i.e., regular soldiers) or NCO officers who reported that as they retreated from Bessarabia they were beaten and their rank insignia were torn off by local groups of the Jewish community. It's well documented. Now, whether you choose to believe these reports or not, that's a different story. [quote]Clever guys managed to discover that the attackers had Jewish blood amidst the shooting, smoke and confusion. [/quote] Since a lot of these soldiers were stationed in small towns/villages, they knew the local population quite well. It wasn't hard to detect who was jewish and who was not in most cases. By the way, you mention "Jewish blood", but Judaism is a religion, not a racial or social group. To imply they constitute a "race" could be interpreted as anti-semitic in itself, something which I'm sure you were not trying to do. [quote]Did these people act offensively because of their communist political leaning or did they offend because of their race ? Are the causes political or racial ?[/quote] Surely, these people acted in such manner because of their political extremist views, not because of their religion or "race" as you call it. The causes were political, however, having said that, this doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of Romanian communists during that period of time were Jewish. The more relevant question in my opinion becomes, why did they choose communism at that particular juncture in place and time? One last comment. No group of people, including Jews, can be considered as "perfect" or labeled only as "victims". Doing so would be more of an insult towards them. The important factor is that all groups be viewed as equal. Consequently, I am personally not ready to dismiss any negative action led by a Jewish majority simply because of the existing anti-semitism or because of the horrible fate they endured later on during the war. Discrimination, or racism, whatever one wants to call it, runs both ways and exists within all groups at one point or another. No particular group is exempt from it. Therefore, although one is certainly entitled to believe whoever and whatever he wishes, I find it a bit subjective that you are willing to dismiss the considerable amount of written documentation by the Romanian military in Bessarabia and simply blame it on general anti-semitism. Sorry for the length of my message, but since this may be considered a sensitive topic, I wanted to make sure that my message was not misunderstood. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 14, 2004 11:28 am |
| [quote]As I previously stated, this was not limited to one statement from the Defense Department. I'll be glad to post tons of incident reports from soldier sentry "Joe Nobody" (i.e., regular soldiers) or NCO officers who reported that as they retreated from Bessarabia they were beaten and their rank insignia were torn off by local groups of the Jewish community. It's well documented. Now, whether you choose to believe these reports or not, that's a different story. [/quote]
Precisely. Given that such behaviour was unlike any other Jewish communities in other countries one can only wonder why they acted that way in Bessarabia. [quote]Since a lot of these soldiers were stationed in small towns/villages, they knew the local population quite well. It wasn't hard to detect who was jewish and who was not in most cases. [/quote] Don’t know. I’m incredibly inefficient at it. Oh, where not some of those soldiers Jewish too ? No communist Romanians either ? That clear cut assassine sentence really bothers me. [quote]By the way, you mention "Jewish blood", but Judaism is a religion, not a racial or social group. To imply they constitute a "race" could be interpreted as anti-semitic in itself, something which I'm sure you were not trying to do. [/quote] Of course you’re right. That’s just how most anti semits interpreted it back in WWII… and again today. [quote]Surely, these people acted in such manner because of their political extremist views, not because of their religion or "race" as you call it. The causes were political, however, having said that, this doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of Romanian communists during that period of time were Jewish. [/quote] Why do nobody ever mention the other religions when refering to Romanians ? If the factor in our case is solely political why mention the religion at all ? Do we ever say "the christian orthodox (or whatever) Romanian fascists who followed Antonescu" ? Nooooo, it’s simply "the Romanian fascists who followed Antonescu". The accentuation of the religion seems always reserved to the Jewish religion. A bit suspicious I think. [quote]The more relevant question in my opinion becomes, why did they choose communism at that particular juncture in place and time? [/quote] Right. I have not a shadow of an answer and surely that raises my doubts a notch. [quote]Consequently, I am personally not ready to dismiss any negative action led by a Jewish majority simply because of the existing anti-semitism or because of the horrible fate they endured later on during the war. [/quote] Absolutely. And that doesn’t prevent looking for and finding a coherent explanation either. It feels better than just utter "those communist bastards had every interest possible in acting against us that's pretty evident to all ! But, hey, you know they were almost all Jews, go figure…". The second sentence doesn't lead to a better historical perspective as to why and how things happened. [quote]Therefore, although one is certainly entitled to believe whoever and whatever he wishes, I find it a bit subjective that you are willing to dismiss the considerable amount of written documentation by the Romanian military in Bessarabia and simply blame it on general anti-semitism.[/quote] Mabadesc, there was considerable written documentation inside the 3rd Reich explaining why the Jews were sub-humans. That doesn’t turn such trash into facts or worthwhile analysis on biology and human nature. My point is that period documentation is inevitably politically tainted. Primary source like that must be checked and studied to get at the truth and not thrown at people as proofs. Ah well let's take another example : the fact that American historical documents often wrote about indian military victories as "massacres" (ex : Fetterman trail) and labeled true massacres of whole Indian villages as mere "affairs". First, that's no proof to me that Indians were always the bad guys and white men the angels and second, I would not write that in a history book today. I have no idea to what extent the Jews in Bessarabia where involved in pro Communist activities. I’m certainly ready to discover that they did so massively. And because I also need to know why I cannot content myself with less than, say, some solid references to modern historical analysis. Otherwise all we have left to stare at is an empty shell, slowly filling with anti semitism. Cheers |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 14, 2004 02:42 pm |
| [quote]I have no idea to what extent the Jews in Bessarabia where involved in pro Communist activities. I’m certainly ready to discover that they did so massively. And because I also need to know why I cannot content myself with less than, say, some solid references to modern historical analysis.[/quote]
It looks like we're really not too far from seeing eye to eye. You just would like to see more historical proof because you don't trust the army communiques I mentioned. That's fair enough. I do not know of other historical studies done on this subject, but if I come across any, I'll definitely let you know. Perhaps someone else reading this thread has more supporting evidence? If you do, please post... |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 14, 2004 06:22 pm |
| Yes, that's about the first half of the cake :arrow: Primary sources must be taken with a pinch of salt.
The second half of the cake is that it's far more important to know why these people would have acted as they did. In what measure was their origin/religion a factor in their acts ? If the answer in none then you strongly risk drawing wrong conclusions from the primary source. On the other hand if there is a correlation it would help a lot to understand it, as it becomes the only way to understand the events. As it stands, we simply don't understand why the Jews from Bessarabia would have prefered Communist Russia to Romania. And that's a key to this part of the discussion... |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 14, 2004 07:45 pm |
| Translation from Romanian :
THE JEWISH ACTION (1st part) I. THE JEWS OF BESSARABIA AND BUCOVINA DURING THE RETREAT 1. Revolutionnary Comittees - At Cernauti, the commissar of the people is actually the Jew Sale Brull, of profession photograph, the mayor is the Jew Glaubach, mayor adviser the Jew Hitzig and prefect is another Jew, Meer or Beer. - At Chisinau, the chief of the local Soviet is the Jewish lawyer Steinberg, from Husi. - At Chilia Noua was formed a local comittee leaded by Dr. Rabinovici, doctor and mayor of the town. - The ancient gazeteers of "Adevarul" and "Dimineata", Teziman and Candea received important functions in Bessarabia. - At Soroca, the leader of the terrorist action was the Jew Leizer Ghinsberg, public guardian at the local police. 2. Attacks and murders - The Jewish-Communist bands of Chisinau plundered the refugees who didn't had the possibility to defend themselves. - In different train stations, the communist Jews, in groups with red banners, where trying to make pressures to determine the travellers to get out. In certain cases they abandonned only after the travellers defended themselves by firing with weapons. - At Chisinau, a band of communist Jews tried to lynch the students in theology, who escaped only because of the intervention of a detachment of gendarmes, who used their weapons. - The financiar inspector Preotescu and the ancient financiar inspector Padureanu, boarder, of Chisinau were both shot down. - At Chisinau, the execution lists were draw up by the Jewish communist intellectuals Carol Steinberg, lawyer Etea Dinor and Dr. Derevici. - At Chisinau, the Jewish lawer Sternberg leading a group, throwed with rocks on the Romanian troops retreating. - The perceptor and notary of the comune Ceadar-Lung (Tighina) were murdered. - The priest Dujacovschi of Tighina was assassinated. - The chief of the gendarme post of Abaclia (Tighina) was shot by three Jews. - The perceptor and perception agent of the Calaglia comune (Cahul) were retained during 9 hours and condemned to death, but succeeded to flee. - The help comissar Chela Grigore of the police of Valcov, there are indications that he was killed. - In the comunes of the Cetatea Alba county inhabited also by Bulgarians ; those ones made common cause with the communist Jews, participating at bloody events. - In Cazaclia and Ceadarlunga were killed notaries, priests and policemen. - At Reni, there very grave incidents between the Jews, who shot 2 Romanian sailors and the Romanian military autorities. The Jews were wearing red arm-bands. 15-20 communist-terrorist Jews were shot. - In the Cetatea Alba county, the Jewish communist bands maltreated priests, they burned their bores with cigarettes and devastated the churches. - At Cernauti, a group of Jews assaulted and throwed with rocks on 2 buses, in which were travelling soldiers; the Jews stopped only when the soldiers used their weapons. In face of all those horrors comitted exclusively by Bessarabian Jews, we observe a profound indignation of the Romanian population, which in certain cases cannot withstand anymore her feelings of revolt. Source : Arh. M.A.p.N., fond Marele Stat Major, Sectia 2, dosar nr. 155, f. 162-172. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 14, 2004 08:16 pm |
| Chandernagore wrote :
[quote]Oh, where not some of those soldiers Jewish too ? No communist Romanians either ? That clear cut assassine sentence really bothers me. [/quote] I can practically say that there was no Romanian ethnic communists in Bessarabia during that period, considering the general fear of Soviet Russia, and the fight against bolshevik Hungary in 1919 etc. Communists and their sympathisants were recruted by the Internationale from the local un-assimilated minorities, the most important being the Jews. The Jews acquired by Romania after 1918 were not like the Jews of the ancient kingdom (Regat) ; they did not spoke any Romanian, and where and in most cases were not interested by Romania. Transylvanian Jews were speaking fluent Magyar, and thus more loyal to Hungary (the situation will slowly change, with the arrival of the nationalist Horthy in power). Bessarabian Jews were the product of imperial Russia ; they were colonized in Bessarabia during the 19th century in order to dilute the local Romanian ethnics. Those Jews fall immediately "in love" after WWI with the new Soviet autorities which now deeply represented Jewish interests of equality between minorities. As for the "terrorist Jews", I will now cite Winston Churchill : [...]There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and an the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution: by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.[...] Source : Churchill, Winston, Zionism versus Bolshevism, Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, page 5. During WWII, Jews (appart from an insignificant minority of volunteers) did not participate as troop in the Romanian Army. But, the "assimilated Jews" from the old kingdom (Regat) financed the Romanian budget at the orders of marshal Antonescu with billions of lei (Leu = national Romanian currency). [quote]The accentuation of the religion seems always reserved to the Jewish religion. A bit suspicious I think. [/quote] It's hard to talk of "Jewish race" today, considering that today's Jews are nearly no more semitic... In fact, some 90% of the actual Jews may be of Kazar (turco-mongolic population from the Northern Caucasus and the Volga region, converted to judaism during the "Dark Age" - centuries 8-9 AD) origin ; askenades(?). Regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 14, 2004 09:47 pm |
| That's quite surprising. I had no idea Churchill held such radical opinions.
The newspaper excerpt you cite is from 1920. I would be curious to learn whether he changed his views by the time WWII rolled around or whether he still had the same views. Do you have any similar quotes by him, but from the 1940's? |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 14, 2004 11:26 pm |
| So what's your conclusion Geto ? Did they act like they did because they were ...
1. Communist 2. Atheistic Jewish Bessarabians 3. Evil Jews born only to conspire against the national aspirations of Greater Upper Uber Romania ? |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 15, 2004 12:57 am |
| Chander, you're being unfair in your third "multiple choice" theory:
[quote]3. Evil Jews born only to conspire against the national aspirations of Greater Upper Uber Romania ? [/quote] Let's leave aside for a moment the alleged involvement of jewish communists in Bessarabia. You're taking a low shot (below the belt, so to speak) at Romania. In 1940, without any conflict, Romania was forced to give up app. 35-40% of its historical territory. Within a few months, it lost 4 regions: N. Transylvania, Dobrudja, N. Bukovina, and Bessarabia. Romania entered WWII in order to escape virtual extinction (see Poland). They chose the side (Germany) which they thought offered them the best chance in recuperating these lost Romanian regions. Also, had they lined up with the Soviet Union, they would have faced the real danger of being forced into communism and into being incorporated by the Soviet Union (once again, total anihilation). During the war, Romania did not exhibit any imperialistic intent of becoming, as you put it, "Greater Upper Uber Romania". To the contrary, they were even offered Transnistria in 1941 and refused to take over that area, claiming that all they wanted was the re-unification of the regions it lost before the war started. I realize that you were half-joking, but you should not put Romania in the league of the "imperialistic nations" of WWII, such as Germany or the Soviet Union. :nope: Anyway, sorry for the brief deviation from the subject at hand. Now, let's get back to the alleged terrorist involvement of jewish-romanian communists in Bessarabia. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 15, 2004 09:44 am |
| [quote]You're taking a low shot (below the belt, so to speak) at Romania. [/quote]
Nah. The cheap shot was at good old rotten nationalism :wink: [quote]In 1940, without any conflict, Romania was forced to give up app. 35-40% of its historical territory. Within a few months, it lost 4 regions: N. Transylvania, Dobrudja, N. Bukovina, and Bessarabia... They chose the side (Germany) which they thought offered them the best chance in recuperating these lost Romanian regions. [/quote] Wasn't that the same reason Hungary choosed to side with Germany ? What percentage of it's historical territory did a country like Hungary loose comparatively to Romania ? I fear that the situation of Romania is far from unique in that regard. I admit however that in 1940 the pill must have been damn hard to swallow. Naturally it is also true that the greater your territorial claims the more problems and clashes you're likely to develop. Romania seems to have had it's share from the start of the century. [quote]Also, had they lined up with the Soviet Union, they would have faced the real danger of being forced into communism and into being incorporated by the Soviet Union (once again, total anihilation).[/quote] You must mean assimilation or occupation, not annihilation. [quote]I realize that you were half-joking, but you should not put Romania in the league of the "imperialistic nations" of WWII, such as Germany or the Soviet Unit.[/quote] I agree it must be put in the same category as Finland/Hungary. It would have been much better however not to go as far as Stalingrad in an attempt to recover the lost territories. It's never wise to kick the bear in the bottom of his cave. Being non Romanian puts me in minority here and , I fear, sometimes makes me appear anti-Romanian simply because my observator position makes me see things in a whole different light. [quote]Anyway, sorry for the brief deviation from the subject at hand. Now, let's get back to the alleged terrorist involvement of jewish-romanian communists in Bessarabia.[/quote] Yes. Nobody answered yet. Why where the Jews from Bessarabia not happy under Romanian rule ? There must have been some real problem for them to prefer the Russians who, let's recall, managed quite a lot of pogroms against the Jews along the years. |
| Posted by: dragos January 15, 2004 05:12 pm |
| [quote]Wasn't that the same reason Hungary choosed to side with Germany ? What percentage of it's historical territory did a country like Hungary loose comparatively to Romania ? I fear that the situation of Romania is far from unique in that regard.[/quote]
No, it wasn't the same reason. Hungary's act was a violation of the treaty of Trianon, which concluded the First World War for Romania. Abandoned by the signatories of the peace treaty, it was the only thing that Romania could do in order to reinstate its souvereignity. [quote]It would have been much better however not to go as far as Stalingrad in an attempt to recover the lost territories. It's never wise to kick the bear in the bottom of his cave.[/quote] Antonescu's intention was not to kick the bear, but to put it at rest once and for all. [quote]Nobody answered yet. Why where the Jews from Bessarabia not happy under Romanian rule ?[/quote] My answer was already "sketched" by Geto-Dacul. Given the background of their settlement and the separation that exited between communities (very strict at that time), the Soviet bolsheviks and the Communist Party of Romania targeted the Russian and Jews comunities in Bessarabia for their propaganda. Also we should consider the big number of Jews in high-ranking positions in the communist party, as leaders of opinion and factors of influence. Of course, I don't believe 100% the reports of that time, I am sure some of them were exagerated, if not faked, but the fact that they actioned for usurpation of Romanian administration is a reality. |
| Posted by: dragos January 15, 2004 07:37 pm |
| [quote]Trianon oh well...sure.. a treaty imposed at gunpoint, just like the stealing of Bessarabia by the Soviets. I wonder what value it could have had in the eyes of the Hungarians :roll: [/quote]
It is a serious mistake to compare Trianon with the Soviet ultimatum. For how many times must I say that Transylvania was legitimate Romanian territory? Even if it wasn't the people congregation of Alba Iulia, asking for union with Romania, this is the reason for which Romania has entered the First World War. Not to speak of the fact that Romanians were majority in Transilvania in 1919, while Russians were not in Bessarabia in 1940. [quote]Didn't Antonescu read Tolstoi ?[/quote] I don't know. But I know Stalingrad was one step further than Borodino.
[quote]So, let's say I changed my mind and I'm more or less convinced that the Romanian Bessarabians from Jewish religion (or was it atheistic ?) where acting as a 5th column for the Bolsheviks. Sure would like to know why they liked communists that much.[/quote] I don't know more the moment. But in you statement, why do you label the Jews the 5th column for the Bolsheviks, when they were the Bolsheviks? |
| Posted by: mabadesc January 15, 2004 09:40 pm |
| C'mon, guys. The Transylvania/Vienna Diktat (or Arbitration) is off-topic for this thread.
For once we were having a focused, productive debate - let's try to stick to it, please. The discussion is centered around Bessarabia, its Jewish population, the origin of its Jewish-Romanian population, and their attraction to the Communist party, which supposedly led them to undertake destabilizing terrorist acts. I do have a few questions which arose in the course of this thread, and which may help us get to the bottom of this issue. 1. Moldova, and implicitly Bessarabia, was the Romanian province (region) with the highest Jewish concentration in the entire country. Does anyone know why? Why the affinity for that particular region? 2. Getu made an interesting point in differentiating between the Jewish population with Romanian origins prior to 1918 as opposed to newly arrived Jewish-Romanians post-1918. He states that the latter group was not nearly as well assimilated in Romanian society, that they did not speak Romanian, etc... My question is, how did this group immigrate to Romania and where did they emmigrate from? Furthermore, why their desire to immigrate to Romania, and Bessarabia in particular? 3. Was this process of migration coordinated by the International or Soviet Communist party, or was it spontaneous? 4. Did the Soviet Union have its "eyes", so to speak, set on Bessarabia ever since 1918 or was it a sentiment that developed later on, during the late 1930's? 5. Getu stated a theory: "It's hard to talk of "Jewish race" today, considering that today's Jews are nearly no more semitic... In fact, some 90% of the actual Jews may be of Kazar (turco-mongolic population from the Northern Caucasus and the Volga region, converted to judaism during the "Dark Age" - centuries 8-9 AD) origin ; askenades(?). " This may be of interest in our search of the truth, but I haven't heard about this theory before. Getu, would you please expand on your statement a bit further? 6. Chander stated about the Bessarabian Jewish-Romanian population: " Sure would like to know why they liked communists that much." I would also like to know, as this may be one of the key questions to the debate. Does anyone have some statistics showing the total number of Communists in 1930's Romania as well as the percentage of Jewish-Romanians within this group? Perhaps from a census, or a poll taken during those years? Let's keep this topic focused and ongoing. Maybe we can actually reach an objective conclusion. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 15, 2004 09:58 pm | ||||
Perhaps you should present us the other one.
Not at all, same scale Lets' see further. Based on the same (or better) morale high ground, today : Germany should immediately declare war on Belgium to unify the western districts where there is a crushing majority of Germans. By entering war it completely justifies the unification of the country. Right ? Sorry, Mabadesc, you're right. Let's get back to Bessarabia. |
| Posted by: dragos January 15, 2004 10:02 pm |
| Please post this in the new Viena Diktat topic. |
| Posted by: Victor January 16, 2004 07:26 am | ||||||||||
The majority of the Jewish population there came from either Russia or Poland. Maybe they felt more at home in Moldavia than in Wallachia.
In 1918-19 there were many Jewish refugees from Volnya and Podolya, who were allowed to stay for a while, until things settled down, but eventually they remained, mostly illegally. From 1922 on, many Russian-Jewish political refugees were allowed to stay in Romania.
Who knows? I believe many fled to Romania, because the Jewish community here was numerous and strong and the country was safer for them than Russia.
1918, ofcourse. They never recognized the union. There was even a ultimatum in 1918 and a pathetic invasion attempt, but the fighting in the Ukraine with the Whites and the war with Poland did not leave the Bolsheviks too many resources. In the 20s they created the Moldavian SSR on the eastern bank of the Dniester.
In 1933 PCR (the Romanian Communist Party) had 1,665 members: 440 Hungarians, 375 Romanians, 300 Jews, 140 Bulgarians, 100 Russians, 70 Ukrainians, 70 "Moldavians", 170 others. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore January 16, 2004 08:57 am | ||
Interesting numbers. First they are very low. Second the Jews come only in third position behind Hungarians and Romanians. Surely those tons of reports cannot result from the actions of a Golden Horde consisting of a huge number of 300 communist Jews ? There is still some ingredient missing in the soup. |
| Posted by: Alexandru H. January 16, 2004 09:05 am |
| Well, in the 20s the Communists were more important than the Socialists and had many more members (a thing romanian historians tend to forget). Stalin's decisions concerning the Comintern destroyed any chance for a powerful communist party.
Second, that list means, in the eternal nationalistic spirit, that the Communists didn't represent the romanian people, thus is was ineherently wrong. Unfortunately, not all parties are build from an ethnic foundation (like the Legion) :roll: |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 16, 2004 04:41 pm |
| Victor wrote :
[quote]In 1933 PCR (the Romanian Communist Party) had 1,665 members: 440 Hungarians, 375 Romanians, 300 Jews, 140 Bulgarians, 100 Russians, 70 Ukrainians, 70 "Moldavians", 170 others.[/quote] I'd be curious to see the source of those statistics... Anyway, even in the Hungarians, most of them were Jewish Hungarians, but only recognizing themselves as Hungarians. I also heard at many occasions and in many references people saying that "the communist party had no more than 800 members"... Or that most of them were double agents, infiltrated by the SSI to better survey bolshevik activity. ... It is also interesting to see that in the top-leading post-1945 communists, Jews were occupying special functions : 1. Ana Pauker, alias Anna Rabinson - Minister of Foreign Affairs and number one agent of Moscow in Bucharest. 2. Ilka Wassermann, The actual Director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 3. Josef Kishinevski, alias Jakob Broitman, Vice President of the Council of Ministers and member of the Central Committee of the Romanian Communist Party. 4. Teohari Georgescu, alias Burah Tescovich , Minister ofthe Interior. 5. Avram Bunaciu, alias, Abraham Gutman - Secretary General of the National Assembly. The actual leader of the Assembly. 6. Lothar Radaceanu, alias Lothar Wuertzel, Minister at Large. 7. Miron Constantinescu, alias Mehr Kohn, born in Galati, Minister of Mining and member of the Central Committee of the Romanian Communist Party. 8. Moises Haupt, General, Military Commander of Bucharest. 9. Laurian Zamfir, alias Laurian Rechler, General, Chief of Security, born in Braila. 10. Heinz Gutman, Chief of the Civil Secret Service. 11. William Suder, alias Wilman Suder, Chief of Counter Espionage. 12. Colonel Roman, alias Walter Roman - Father of the Prime Minister Petru Roman, Chief of the Department of Edu-cation, Culture and Propaganda of the Army (Walter Roman's father was Rabbi Neulander, an old communist). 13. Alexander Moghioros, Minister of Nationalities. A Jew from Hungary. 14. Alexandru Badan, alias Alexander Braunstein. Chief of the Commission to Controll the Foreigners. 15. Maior Levin, a Jew and former officer of the Russian Red Army, Chief Censor of the Press. 16. Colonel Holban, alias Moscovich, Chief of Security in Bucharest. 17. George Silviu, alias Gersch Gollinger, Secretary General of the Ministry of Interior. 18. Erwin Voiculescu, alias Erwin Weinberg, Chief of the Passport Department in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 19. Gheorghe Apostol, alias Gerschwin, President of the Workers' Syndicate. 20. Stupineanu, alias Stappnau, Chief of Economic Espio-nage. 21. Emmerick Stoffel, A Jew from Hungary, Romanian Ambassador in Switzerland. 22. Harry Fainaru, alias Hersch Feiner, Chief Councilor in the Romanian Embassy in the United States. 23. Ida Szillagy - A Jewess, friend of Ana Pauker (the actual head of the Romanian Embassy in London). 24. N. Lazarescu, alias Burah Lazarovich - In charge of Foreign Relations of Romania in Paris. 25. Simon Oieru, alias Schaeffer, Under Secretary of State. 26. Aurel Baranga, alias Ariel Leibovich, General Inspector in the Department of Arts. 27. Liuba Kishinevki, alias Liuba Broitman, Head of the Anti-Fascist Women's Association of Romania. 28. Lew Zeiger - A Jew. Director General of the Ministry of Economy. 29. Doctor Zeider, Legal advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 30. Marcel Breslau, alias Mark Breslau, General Director of the Department of Arts. 31. Silviu Brucan, alias Bruekker, Chief editor of the newspaper "Scanteia", (the official publication of the Communist Party). He was in charge of the propaganda campaign to spread disinformation to the people in regard to the Communist leadership. At the same time, he was in charge of fabricating the anti-Semitic campaign in Romania. 32. Samoila, alias Samuel Rubenstein, The Governing Director of the newspaper "Scanteia". 33. Horia Liman, alias Lehman, Assistent editor of the newspaper "Scanteia". 34. Enginer Schnapp , a Jew. Governing Director of the newspaper "Romania Libera" (Free Romania). 35. Jehan Mihai, alias Jakob Michael, Chief of the FilmIndustry in Romania. 36. Alexandru Graur, alias Alter Brauer, General Director of Romanian Broadcasting System. 37. Mihai Roller, a Jew who was born in Soviet Union. President of the Romanian Academy and the author of the falsi-fied Romanian history. 38. Professor Weigel, The tyrant of the University of Bucharest, who was in charge of the elimination of the anti-communist students from the universities. 39. Professor Levin Bercovich , another tyrant of the University of Bucharest, who controlled the teaching staff and who came from Russia. 40. Silviu Iosifescu, alias Samson Josifovich, The Jew that censored Eminescu, Alexandri and Vlahuta and eliminated parts of their literary work which was not in harmony with the Com-munists. 41. Joan Winter, alias Jakob Winter, The second Marxist literary critic of Romania. 42. Alexander Sencovich, Misha Levin and Sam Asriel (alias Serban) Secretaries of the General Association of Workers. This is only a partial list of the communist Jews in key positions in the Romanian Government. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 16, 2004 04:45 pm |
| Alexandru H. wrote :
[quote]Unfortunately, not all parties are build from an ethnic foundation (like the Legion)[/quote] At least, to be representative of a people's interests, it must have the base : be made of a majority of local ethnics, otherwise it represents foreign interests. At that time, the communists were representing Moscow's expansionist policy. |
| Posted by: mg 42 January 16, 2004 04:52 pm |
| [quote]Alexandru H. wrote :
[quote]Unfortunately, not all parties are build from an ethnic foundation (like the Legion)[/quote] At least, to be representative of a people's interests, it must have the base : be made of a majority of local ethnics, otherwise it represents foreign interests. At that time, the communists were representing Moscow's expansionist policy.[/quote] after the great anti-semitic purges of Stalin and after the retreat of the red army form Romania, romanian communism became a 100% romanian business. :ro: so maybe we didn't bring communism into the country, but we sure continued it very methodically and with desastrous effects until 1989. so it's no use blaming the jews : " they started it" :nope: . Because we continued it...big time. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 16, 2004 05:15 pm |
| mg 42 :
[quote]after the great anti-semitic purges of Stalin and after the retreat of the red army form Romania, romanian communism became a 100% romanian business. [/quote] False ; many old dignitaries who remained in power were of Jewish origin. For example, at the III'rd Congress of the Romanian Worker's Party, on Tuesday June 21, 1960, in the chiefs of the Congress were the following Jews : -Apostol Gheorghe -Borila Petre -Coliu Dumitru -Draghici Alexandru -Isac Martin -Moghioros Alexandru -Pantelie Maria -Pas Ion -Rautu Leonte -Salajan Leontin -Trofin Virgil -Voitec Stefan (not sure - maybe Romanian) (see Scinteia, Anul XXIX Nr. 4866, Marti 21 Iunie 1960, 8 pagini - 40 de Bani :mrgreen: ) [quote]so maybe we didn't bring communism into the country, but we sure continued it very methodically and with desastrous effects until 1989. so it's no use blaming the jews : " they started it" . Because we continued it...big time.[/quote] When you make big statements of the type "black/white" like socialism was only a disaster etc., please bring sources and proofs because it is an opinion, not a fact. Getu' |
| Posted by: mg 42 January 16, 2004 05:24 pm |
| on what grounds do you say these people were of jewish origin? |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul January 16, 2004 05:45 pm |
| mg 42 wrote :
[quote]on what grounds do you say these people were of jewish origin?[/quote] Their names, my dear, their original names! -Apostol Gheorghe (Gerschwin) -Borila Petre -Coliu Dumitru -Draghici Alexandru (Dulbergher) -Isac Martin -Moghioros Alexandru (Moghiorosch) -Pantelie Maria -Pas Ion -Rautu Leonte (Oigenstein) -Salajan Leontin (Silaghi) -Trofin Virgil -Voitec Stefan (not sure - maybe Romanian) Getu' P.S. : You can also add Silviu Brucan (Saul Bruckner), Alexandru Barladeanu, Grigore Raceanu, Valter Roman Neulander (father of Petre Roman), Sergiu Celac, V. Tismaneanu (Tesmenetski)... All from USSR :laugh: ... |
| Posted by: petru January 16, 2004 07:27 pm |
| Yeah, it is true. The only Romanian was Gheorghiu Dej. That is the reason for his chosing as a leader. Other even had diffculties in talking correctly in romanian. Someone interested in this topic should read Dennis Deletant "Romania under the comunist rule". I think there are more books of the same author.
This book treats pretty well the topic. Beside it will give you an ideea about the Romanian Communist Party. I don't remeber the exact words, but one of the ideeas was that in the moment in which the Soviets presented the ultimatum to Romania in 1940 the RCP, being ordered, supported this claim. As a result it was seen as a party of foreigners, and the numbers of its members decreased to around 300 (from 1500). It needed the soviet tanks to get to power in Romania. There were not too many romanians in the party. |
| Posted by: Alexandru H. January 16, 2004 11:31 pm |
| That is the same excuse Dej and Ceausescu used it to explain the 1948-1952 criminal acts: those were the acts of the jews, good romanians like us are innocent...Crap :blbl:
The Communist system was criminal through its own nature, it didn't require jews, germans or nubians to work...As seen in Europe, Asia, Africa, America, the human material can be as diverse as possible, crime is a feature from which everything else derives... |
| Posted by: Victor January 17, 2004 07:07 am |
| Can we get back on topic? |
| Posted by: Le_Conducator January 18, 2005 12:27 am |
| The ultimatum was an act of enormous cowardice, just four days after France(Romania's protector) was defeated. |
| Posted by: Le_Conducator January 18, 2005 12:34 am |
| It's true what they say about the jews starting their own war against the Romanians, they acted so violently 'cause stalin promissed them a jewish sovietic republic between the Prut and the Bug, it's no joke just read Paul Goma's Saptamana Rosie. |
| Posted by: dragos January 18, 2005 07:06 am | ||
What is the source for this statement: "stalin promissed them a jewish sovietic republic between the Prut and the Bug" ? |
| Posted by: Victor January 18, 2005 07:53 am | ||
Generalizations aren't productive. I wouldn't go so far to say "Jews", but "some Communist sympathizers, of which a part were Jews". There were over 200,000 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina and certainly only a small part of them actually killed or beat up Romanian soldiers or refugees and in some cases there are even names of the individuals mentioned. My grandmother fled with her sister and mother from a village near Telenesti all the way to Iasi and she did not see anything similar to the events portrayed by Goma. Throughout his book Goma repeats the idea of the Jewish Republic in Bessrabia, but I did not see (maybe I missed it) any actual reference to an official document. I wouldn't take for granted anything he writes, as he obviously has some bias. |
| Posted by: Le_Conducator January 18, 2005 09:16 pm | ||
OK, not all the jews, most of them, 90%, there are documents and testimonies of the survivors - almost all the crimes and violences commited against the Romanian soldiers and civilians were made by jews(it's true a tiny part was made by bulgarians). Almost all the communist sympathizers were jews, I sayd almost 'cause there were some bulgarians too. How do you explain the sudden fierce hatred of the majority of the jewish population(80-90%) for the Roumanians, very tolerant people who never did anything bad to the jews, never persecuted them????? There is only one answer: stalin promised them(for gaining their support) a jewish socialist sovietic republic between the Prut river and the Bug river including northen Bucovina. Maybe you find another logical expanation for the violences, crimes and the jews(not the russians) shouting: we want Moldova as far as the "Seret"(Siret). At that time there was no israel state. Read the book(it has all the documents you need) and some testimonials of the time(the articles of Iorga, Carol's II diary) for more information. |