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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > Question about Germans capturing the Romanian Army |
| Posted by: eternal_sin March 18, 2009 04:06 am |
| Hello, I'm currently doing some research for a college paper about my family. My grand father comes from Romania and I've been asking several questions to family members about his involvement in the war but something isn't clear. I was told that he was part of the Romanian Army as a doctor and that at some point, his unit (or perhaps even more) was captured by Germans. He was then forced to march towards Germany and he was later liberated by the Americans and he stayed in Germany for 2-3 years after the war. I've been searching online for details and I haven't found any evidence whatsoever of Romanians being forced to march towards Germany. In fact, it seems rather bizarre that his unit would of been captured. Can anyone possibly try to clarify all of this for me? Thanks a lot for your help, -Matt |
| Posted by: MMM March 18, 2009 04:15 pm |
| Of course, you cannot supply more details... |
| Posted by: eternal_sin March 18, 2009 05:29 pm |
| I don't really have any more details but I discussed it with my mother last night and she said it's possible he was first captured by the Russians and then by the Germans but that doesn't really help me since I still can't find information on any Romanians being forced to march to Germany. |
| Posted by: 21 inf March 19, 2009 06:07 am |
| Maybe he was on general Platon Chirnoaga division, which was almost entirely captured by germans? The germans tried to draft from this prisoniers members for a SS romanian regiment. They couldnt try to draft romanians in later stages of war only if the POWs were on german teritory. Just my 2 cent opinion  |
| Posted by: Victor March 19, 2009 06:54 am | ||
Romania fought against Germany for 8 months. Ofcourse there were Romanian prisoners in Germany. Why would you considered it as "bizarre"? For instance, as 21inf already pointed out, large parts of 4th Infantry Division (commanded by general Platon Chirnoaga) was captured in a bridgehead over the Tisza River in late 1944. |
| Posted by: MMM March 19, 2009 07:00 am |
| Actually, AFAIK, many of the captured soldiers and officers of Chirnoaga's division re-allied themselves with the Germans and were treated as allied troops again. It is a real possibility, however... |
| Posted by: Dénes March 19, 2009 08:06 am |
| A significant number of Rumanian soldiers were captured by Hungarians during the battle of Budapest in the winter of 1944/1945. I published such a photo in one of my books. I don't know their fate, however. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: 21 inf March 19, 2009 06:57 pm |
| To Denes: (off-topic) Denes, you just pointed an info that i didnt was aware about, the romanian POWs taken in Budapest. Please, Denes, are you so kind to point how many were taken, at least aproximately? It is interesting to know how many POWs were taken from romanian ranks, because usualy the atacked suffer less loses due to prisonier taking than the defender. It is known to which units they belonged when they were taken POW? Can you also share the photo you mentioned, cos i never seen such an image and i am curios about it? Thank you in advance, B. |
| Posted by: Alexei2102 March 19, 2009 07:04 pm | ||
Same goes for me. Please Denes, share the picture with us. Thank you in advance, Al |
| Posted by: Dénes March 19, 2009 08:48 pm |
| Right now I am in Germany, and have no access to my archive. I will post the mentioned photo hopefully on the week-end. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: eternal_sin March 20, 2009 04:37 am | ||
He would have been captured much earlier in the war than 44/45. I got another side of the story today and in fact he might not have been forced to march from Romania to Germany. It might have been my grand mother trying to romanticize his story. His niece told me that her grand mother had said he had been captured but put in prison for years. I'm currently trying to get my hands on some of his old documents but thanks for your help guys. |
| Posted by: MMM March 20, 2009 08:52 am |
Was he legionnaire?  |
| Posted by: Dénes March 22, 2009 09:42 am |
Here is the requested photo (I didn't find the original, so I simply scanned the photo published in my book on the Hungarian Army): Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: 21 inf March 22, 2009 03:43 pm |
| Thanks Denes! |
| Posted by: Alexei2102 March 22, 2009 06:21 pm |
| Thank you very much Denes, Alex |
| Posted by: MMM March 22, 2009 06:56 pm |
Great! Undoubtedly, details are to follow...  |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 23, 2009 10:54 pm |
| Hallo Gen. Denes, Very interesting photo indeed. But it comes with a question : what's your definition of the Battle of Budapest. Do you include here the prelude operations from the so-called Battle of Debrecen -october 1944-or the Budapest Operation from november 1944 to february 1945. Cause I foud doubtful to have so many romanian POW in an offensive operation -so like the Budapest Operation was. It's more likely that these romanian soldiers were captured in the Debrecen Operation - especially the battles near Szolnok . Otherwise I has no logic. Waiting your answer. |
| Posted by: MMM March 24, 2009 05:10 am |
| Right, Andreas! Especially when we know that Budapest was surrounded, we can't but wonder: why would they even take prisoners? |
| Posted by: Dénes March 25, 2009 07:45 pm | ||
The Battle for Budapest (not the siege itself) started in late October 1944 and for the Rumanian troops ended in mid-January 1945. I published an extensive study on the Rumanian army's participation in this battle. Interestingly, Rumanian primary sources do not give the number of missing in the list of casualties, so there is no information on the prisoners captured by the Hungarian-German defenders of 'Fortress Budapest'. Unfortunately, I don't have more details on the photo I posted. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: MMM March 27, 2009 11:12 am | ||
What do you mean
?!?! Did you research the military archive of the divisions/regiments participating there and didn't find out the numbers? It's shocking - I see no appearent reason to conceal that, because it was "trendy" to fight against "fascism", and nonetheless against Hungarians - at least after 23.08.1944... |
| Posted by: Alexei2102 March 27, 2009 11:21 am | ||||
Looks very logic to me - similar to the Hurtgen Forest situation IMO. |
| Posted by: MMM March 27, 2009 11:43 am | ||
Not quite similar - at the Budapest Siege, the city (thus the troops) were encircled totally, with no links on the ground with the rest of the Wehrmacht and Hungarian troops. So their situation was quite hard; why bother to take prisoners instead of killing them on the spot (as it happened, for example, at Stalingrad or Cherkassk encirclements, where German troops took no prisoners). You wanted to make a parallel, maybe, with the German offensive of the Ardennes from 16-th of Dec. 1944... then, yes, they took a couple of prisoners, mostly because of confusion. But I repeat myself: there was no encirclement! |
| Posted by: Alexei2102 March 27, 2009 01:25 pm |
| No, I was talking about the American defeat in the Hurtgenwald battle (September - November 1944), where the casualties figure (over 30,000 dead and wounded) was not released untill some years ago. Al |
| Posted by: MMM March 27, 2009 02:10 pm |
| Oh, I thought you reffered to the Hurtgen Forrest battle in Jan. 1945 as part of the Alsacian offensive led by Himmler... Sorry |
| Posted by: Dénes March 27, 2009 03:06 pm | ||
I didn't say I actually researched myself the Rumanian archives for Army documents. What I said is that I (also) used primary documents (courtesy of someone else), and also documents published in facsimile form. There is info on dead and wounded casualties, particularly the officers, but not on missing (or prisoners). As for the topic of taking prisoners, as I said earlier, the battle for Budapest started in late October 1944. Budapest was encircled completely only at around Christmastime. That leaves about 8 weeks when prisoners could still be evacuated to West. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: MMM March 27, 2009 03:42 pm | ||
Perhaps the proud and mis-informed Romanian authorities believed there were NO prisoners taken and the few that were taken were also released? Just a thought... |
| Posted by: Dénes March 27, 2009 09:11 pm |
| The casualty reports I was referring to were done usually the very same day in the evening, or early next day. So we are not talking of 'sanitized' summaries published after the war. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: dragos March 28, 2009 12:04 am | ||
In conclusion, there were no Romanian POWs, just Hungarian soldiers posing in Romanian uniforms as prisoners  |
| Posted by: Dénes March 28, 2009 06:16 am |
Or, the Rumanians are indeed Rumanians, but the Hungarian is also a Rumanian in Hungarian uniform and with a fake moustache. Photo staged to confuse stupid historians of the XXIst Century...  Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: MMM March 28, 2009 07:16 am |
| Well, they succeeded, didn't they... |
| Posted by: MMM March 28, 2009 09:48 am | ||
Not really possible, as before 23.08.1944, we were allied with the Wehrmacht - hence no prisoners! It has to be a mistake... |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 03, 2009 10:15 pm |
| About the photo again, As I looked more carefully I am more and more convinced that the prisoners were taken in autumn 1944 for the following reasons: -it looks like a massive group of soldiers, not few tens of battle-captured soldiers, who seems to be lightly guarded by a hungarian soldier -the autumn-type uniforms /not winter-type/ of the prisoners and the fact that no snow seems to exist make me believe this was made in late 1944, when the fair-weather allow the hungarian soldier to have no overcoat. -the cavalry romanian sergeant/or noncommissioned officer/ seems to have also autumn-tipe uniform and no cap. What you think about that? |
| Posted by: Radub April 04, 2009 09:09 am | ||
I do not know what you mean by "autumn" dress. The Romanian army had only two types of dress: "summer" and "winter". The "winter" dress was usually worn from around the end of September until roughly around Easter time. Apart from the thicker material, a feature of the "winter" dress was the trenchcoat. Those soldiers are wearing trenchcoats, therefore it is "winter" dress. It is extremely likely that the Romanian troops fought the entire Western campaign from the 25th of October ("Liberation of Transylvania") until the 8th of May (VE Day) in "winter" dress. Radu |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 04, 2009 08:29 pm |
| Thanks Radub, What I ment was only the missing of the cap, which can be seen by many photos of our troops on the Czechoslovakian front. So I believe this element can't actually help. But still no answers to the other elements I posted... What about the hungarian soldier guarding the prisoniers f.i.? No winter uniform for sure... |
| Posted by: Radub April 04, 2009 10:31 pm |
| Andreas, in as far as I can figure out, you are trying to clarify whether these troops were captured in Debrecen in 1944 or in Budapest in 1945 and you are using the type of uniform to pinpoint it in time. In my opinion, the type of uniform does not tell anything other that the soldiers were wearing treanchcoats, which is not a "surprise revelation". Trenchcoats were part of the "winter" dress which was issued in late October. It is very likely that the Romanian troops wore trenchcoats from the moment they crossed the border until they returned home, so the same trenchcoat was worn at any time between late autumn 1944 and spring 1945, whether they were in Debrecen, Budapest, Vienna or Bucharest. To return to the original question. The original poster said that his grandfather was possibly first captured by the Russians then he was captured by the Germans, marched to Germany and then released by the Americans. All of this possibly happened before 1944. I was thinking, is it possible that his grandfather was a member of the Tudor Vladimirescu Division? Radu |
| Posted by: 21 inf April 05, 2009 05:08 am |
| There it is a posibility that the man was sent from Romania to Germany before 1944 for forced labor and lately drafted in german army. |
| Posted by: Victor April 05, 2009 06:09 am | ||
We would then be talking about the same time frame, because the TV Division entered action in August 1944. |
| Posted by: Radub April 05, 2009 07:37 am |
| True, but the vague timeframe of "before 1944" may mean that he was possibly captured by the Russians let's say in late 1943 or early 1944, added to the TV Division in 1944, then captured by the Germans after August 1944 and sent to Germany from where he was released by the Americans in 1945. The Americans could not have released him "before 1944" anyway. It is just a supposition anyway. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM April 05, 2009 08:14 am |
| I see no real result coming from incomplete data! I may repeat myself, but the only explanation I could give if the person in cause was captured before 1944 would be that he was a legionnaire, deported in Germany in january 1941. Otherwise, if he might have been captured by Soviets, and then re-captured by Wehrmacht, at some point he would have been shot either as spy or as desertor |
| Posted by: MMM April 06, 2009 02:24 pm | ||
I never heard of Romanians sent to Germany for forced labor and then recruited to Wehrmacht! Maybe recruited in KZ-Lagers |
| Posted by: Cantemir April 08, 2009 12:00 pm |
| You may remember that I posted a message earlier about the (Romanian) father of a friend of mine who was captured by the British at the Battle of Monte Casino, well before Marshall Antonescu had agreed to Romanian troops being recruited by the Germans. I wrote that I was surprised because I had understood that Antonescu had insisted that Romanian troops should only face the Russians. If he had been a deported Legionary then he would have been beyond the reach of the Marshall and as a Legionary probably would have had fewer scruples about facing the British. You may remember, however, that I also wrote that we weren't completely sure if he was Romanian-speaking or German-speaking (he came from Timiscoara). If he was German-speaking, my understanding is that before 1944 Marshall Antonescu refused to allow German-speakers to be recruited into the Wehrmacht, so if he was not based in Germany before Antonescu's decision I cannot explain how he came to be in the German army. Also, when Swabians were recruited into the Wehrmacht, it was done on the basis of conscription, not as volunteers. On the other hand, if he was in Germany before the Battle of Monte Casino, he would have been a Swabian in the Iron Guard, were there many German-speakers in the Guard? If he was Romanian-speaking, his enlistment in the German army would have been before Antonescu agreed to Romanian-speakers being recruited as volunteers. |
| Posted by: MMM April 08, 2009 12:29 pm | ||
What?!?!?! It was about Romanian citizens, nothing else. And, AFAIK, the German Ethnics (you may have heard about GEG, the German Ethnic Group, under the leadership of Andreas Schmidt) were encouraged to fight under the banner of the SS. Also, take a look at this: http://www.itcnet.ro/history/archive/mi2001/current11/mi75.htm |