Romanian Army in Budapest 1919

[Florin]

QUOTE

Actually the Entente and the US were friendlier in those years to Hungary than to Romania.

You are so right. . .
When the Romanian army started her successful counterattack against the Hungarian agression, Londra and Paris sent messages after messages to stop, to don't over-react, and so on.

It is said that Ferdinand, the king of Romania, sent a letter in accordance to the will of the Western Powers to the Romanian general commanding the campaign, but the latter, guessing what the letter is about, broke the seal and opened the letter after the Romanian army reached Budapest.

Florin

[Bernard Miclescu]

I come on putting some gas on the fire. I was surprised that Mr Nagy Talavera in the introduction to his study about the life of N Iorga, talks about the Romanians injusties in Hungarian territory in 1919. But he is also telling that those injustice (loot, murders, rapes etc.) were less important than the injustice done by the Hungarian administation from the last decade of XIX century till 1918. So maybe those injustice made by Romanian troops ( documents approve (documents à l'appui) in french) had a cause.

Unfortunatly both people didn't knew (even know) how to live together in peace.

BM

[Bernard Miclescu]

Even if i'm a little bit off topic, when I was in "première" in France (clasa a 11-a in Romanian in English = ???) my History teacher was quite interested about Romania. Those days he was teaching about the WWI and he mentioned to the class the predominent role of the Romanian Army between the wars to maintain the democracy system and security in the Balkans against the communist/socialist threats comming from Russia. After him, the Western democracies let the formation of Great Romania for beeing a wall in front of the borning URSS and its ideas. He described also the" well done" anti-comunist action in Hungary in 1919.

Yours,
BM

[Korne]

QUOTE

QUOTE Actually the Entente and the US were friendlier in those years to Hungary than to Romania. You are so right. . . When the Romanian army started her successful counterattack against the Hungarian agression, Londra and Paris sent messages after messages to stop, to don't over-react, and so on.

I quote from Lucian Leustean's book "Romania, Hungary and the Trianon Treaty - 1918-1920"(Ed. Polirom, 2002):

The British diplomat George Russel Clerk said, referring especially to the British and American Generals (Gorton and Bandholtz): "Now the generals are all very comfortably lodged in various palaces of Hungarian magnates, they are smiled over by all Hungarians, and they have about as much sense of political realities as a stuffed dog".

General Bandholtz was clearly biased against the Romanians, as his diary (which was to be published later) proved. "There are some extenuating circumstances for Bandholtz' attitude: it was hard to come from somewhere in the Midwest and to understand such complex realities of a Europe whose century old history could not be anything but enigmatic for beginners [as Gen. Bandholtz was]. This didn't prevent Bandholtz - probably an enthusiastic stamp collector - to request stamps from the Romanian authorities for his own private collection".

[codrin]

hmm...as far as I am concerned, I know that Hungarian elites were very enthousiastic about Romanian troups staying in Budapest...perhaps their ideas were that Romanianans are 2nd class humans and a nation of peasants.I have read a book (forgot its name) in which a member of aristocracy described her fear for the Romanians, but later, she said, she loughed about her fear, when talking with Romanian officers, that spoke french and had impecable manners...after the Bela Kuhn regime which she describes whith horror-she did not left Budapest for Wien, as her husband and other aristocrats did : nationalisation, her house being nationalised and forced to live with all sorts of people("jewish" mostly, she said...), the hunger-there was not any food in Budapest because the bolsheviks "au rechizitionat"(??) everything, the irrational arrest of her father after the well known formula now etc who was worse: the communist hungarians or the romanians...

[dragos]

QUOTE

I have read a book (forgot its name) in which a member of aristocracy described her fear for the Romanians, but later, she said, she loughed about her fear, when talking with Romanian officers, that spoke french and had impecable manners...

However, there was a great rift between the officers and the bottom ranks, mostly illiterate peasants and sheperds. This was a characteristic of most armies of that time, but more pronounced in the East.

[Scipio]

How much resistance was there to repel the Romanian invasion? :oops:

[aerialls]

i really need some links on that.. someone? besides Corvinus.
"invasion"... yes it could be. read again the causes.

[dragos]

The last major battle was during 20-26 July 1919 along the Tisza river. There were two phases: 20-23 July - the Hungarian offensive, 24-26 July - the Romanian counteroffensive. On 20 July Hungarian troops launched their offensive, establishing bridgeheads on the eastern bank of Tisza, at Szolnok and Tokaj. The Romanian counteroffensive, aimed at maneuvering the Hungarian forces and throwing them over Tisza was successful, on 25 July Hungarian army starting general retreat, which turned into a rout, Hungarians abandoning weapons and wagons as they crossed the Szolnok bridge. On 3 August Romanian troops entered Budapest.

[Victor]

QUOTE

Based on what I've read, and sounded convincing to me, the Hungarian delegation to Paris was clearly sidelined and their arguments completely ignored. On the contrary, the Rumanian delegation's inflated claims were taken at face value.

Not exactly true. You make it sound like everything the Romanians asked, they received. It was not that easy.
The Romanian delegation was not at all treated that well, especially because Bratianu's stubbornness not to sign the minorities treaty, which allowed the Major Powers to intervene in the internal affairs of the country. Wilson, especially, did not like him as did Clemanceau. The borderline was actually not the one asked by Bratianu initially, but one settled by a Commission of experts. And there were many times when even this was not sure, because of the very changing attitude of the Peace Conference towards both Romania and Hungary. I believe that this fragment of Stefan Cicio-Pop's letter to Alexandru Vaida-Voevod is pretty suggestive:
The world had never seen a more disgusting comedy like the one played by this Entente! It ties down the hands and feet of its allies and on the other hand screams after help and forces Romania to supply troops to defend it against Russian Bolshevism! Not even among madmen we see such things. We can find more logic in a mental institution.

QUOTE

Also, it was stated to the Hungarian delegation, lead by Count Apponyi, that Hungary has to take the brunt for the Bolshevik episode of 1919. Back then - one always have to place himself/herself in the spirit of those times he/she studies! - the emerging Soviet Union and the spread of Bolshevism into Europe was a major threat, not taken lightly by the Entente members.

Not exactly true. Wilson was initially ready to negotiate with the Bolshevik government, as did Lloyd George. With the exception of France, which was the main promoter of the anti-Bolshevik intervention, the other two Major Powers were not that radical at all.

[aerialls]

canteen of the romanian army in Budapest.

[dragos]

It seems to me they are distributing food to civilians.

[Dénes]

It seems to me that it's a typical propaganda photo. Have you seen photos of Soviet troops distributing food to German civilians in 1945?
Of course, the Rumanian army did serve food for the needy, no question, but based on what I've read it was hardly the norm.

[johnny_bi]

QUOTE

It seems to me that it's a typical propaganda photo. Have you seen photos of Soviet troops distributing food to German civilians in 1945?   Of course, the Rumanian army did serve food for the needy, no question, but based on what I've read it was hardly the norm.

Yeah, sure ... and the Romanians were pretty diabolic since they did that propaganda some 25 years sooner than the Soviets in '45 :wink: ...

[Dénes]

Your point, Johnny?
Which part of my above post you wish to deny?