Romanian Army in Budapest 1919

About feeding of Hungarian population in Budapest:
Five days after entering in Budapest, Romanians opened the biggest antreposit in Budapest, that one of the "Change and scount Hungarian Bank" keeped by bolsheviks. From here, were gave to budapestan population: 170 tons wheat, 28 tons wheat mixed with rye, 400 tons flour, 10 tons marmalade, 700 tons sugar, 20 tons coffe, 400 tons alimentar oil, 650 tons salt, 20 tons paprika, 40 tons dry vegetables, 10 tons dry onion, 35 tons dry apples, 700000 meat tinned conserved, etc.
There were just the firsts measures to evoid Budapest population from starving.
I'll come sooner with other measures, and about the "looting" of Hungaria, with figures.
By the way, I quotted by declaration of Major E. Nancovici, who was detached with suplly (Intendenta) at Central Romanian Commision in Budapest.

The biggest problem with these posts - containing statements and quotes from various Rumanian secondary sources (books and articles) - is that they lack the most basic attribute a credible historical overview should have: a balanced, unbiased presentation of the events, drawing from sources from both sides, as well as third parties, if possible.

The quoted Rumanian books already show the events of the 1918/1919 campaign solely from the Rumanian side, filtered of any negative aspects that were unquestionably part of this regional war, including attrocities, crimes and widespread looting (some of them were already detailed on this forum, check the appropriate threads). The same problem would exist if only Hungarian sources were used.

In order to have a more balanced view we would need someone to present the same events from the Hungarian side. Until then, the picture remains incomplete, unreliable and one sided.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 04, 2010 10:35 pm

A secondary info from a hungarian language newspaper from Bihor county, issued sometime in 2007 or 2008 (i cant rem exactly) , internet edition, who stated about "romanian atrocities" which occured at the begining of romanian offensive in April 1919: in a hungarian village from Bihor county a young 19 years old hungarian peasant was shot dead by romanian troops while he runing after he refused to give up his light machine gun and it's ammo. The young hungarian peasant fellow was clothed in civilian and he was inhabitant of that very village.

Was it atrocity from romanian side? Was it something else, like shooting armed enemy non-regular combatants?

For sure was an romanian atrocity, this is the opinion of that nowadays hungarian language newspaper from Romania, clearly stated as it.

A sample of hungarian view of the events, not to be said that no one listen the other side as well. Readed in original hungarian language by yours trully.

PS: didnt posted the above post to take one someone or to inflame the spirits, just giving an example not suitable for "listening the other side too", cos there are a lot of biased examples in hungarian sources, too, primary or secondary sources, as everywere around the world.

@Denes

And what about baronnes Dora de Taxis? Is she on "Romanian side"?

Look bellow, it represents Romanian troops delivering bread daily to the Budapest population.

This event, and other positive ones mentioned in the previous posts, might have very well been true. No question that good things also happened during the Rumanian occupation of Hungary.
However, as I've stated above, these events included in various published published Rumanian sources are filtered of any negative aspects of the occupation. For example, at the same time this mass feeding took place in Budapest, it might very well have happened that in the countryside entire livestock of Hungarian peasants were confiscated by the Rumanian military authorities, leaving those families hungry and pennyless. This is why I strongly recommended to use sources from all warring parties, and if possible third (supposedly) neutral ones, too. Otherside the picture drawn is biased and misleading, thus practically pointless.

Gen. Dénes

Just as much as a Rumanian princess (let's say Ms. Catherine Caradja) was pro-Soviet after having a pleasant chat at her estate at Nedelea while drinking a cup of tea with a well educated high ranking Soviet officer during the "liberation" of Rumania by the Red Army in 1944.
Is this relevant to the general picture?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 05, 2010 07:37 pm

It a difference between, a baronnes who endured the bolshevik regime and later stayed 3 month under Romanian occupation, and a princess who drank a cup of tea with an soviet officer. The last cannot distiguesh the reality, but the first had seen it with their eyes, during 3 month of occupation.
And I never saw photos, even in German, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Austrian or Turks sources, of their soldiers feeding local population in Bucarest during occupation, that lasted not 3 month, but almost 2 years.

Bellow, a sample of "lootings":
A Romanian church big bell, stolen from Romania by retreating Hungarian troops, and find in Hungary by Romanian troops.

I didn't find the episode you talk about, but I give you so information about this princess, from where you can find why it is believed she was a prosovietist. By the way, she escaped from Romania in 1952, by boat. Hardly to imagine for a prosovietist.

"The princess first became known internationally as a result of her opposition to Romania's alliance with Nazi Germany during the Second World War (see Romania during World War II). When the oilfields at Ploieşti were bombed by the Allies in August 1943 in Operation Tidal Wave, she personally took custody of surviving Allied crews, saw that they were cared for in her hospitals, and facilitated their escape to Italy.[1] During the Allied bombings of spring and summer 1944, several American airmen landed on her estate at Nedelea, after either emergency landing or parachuting. Throughout the war, she eased the burden of captivity for more than one thousand flyers who had been shot down.[2] Those deeds earned her the nickname "Angel of Ploieşti" among the airmen.[1][4] One of the pilots who survived crash landing, and escaped thanks to her efforts, was Richard W. Britt, who recounted the story in a book, many years later.[4][5]

According to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, Princess Caradja had an affair during the war with Frank Wisner, who was working in Bucharest as chief of OSS operations in southeastern Europe. Claiming that Caradja was a Soviet agent, Hoover passed that information to Senator Joseph McCarthy, who was investigating at the time Wisner and the Office of Policy Coordination.[6]

After the Communist regime was established in Romania, her orphanages and foundation were nationalized in 1949. Her daughter, who had left for Paris in 1948, helped the princess escape in early 1952, with assistance from the French secret services;[4] she left the country on a Danube tanker, arriving after 8 weeks in Vienna.[1] During the winter of 1954-55, the princess directed relief efforts for children in Algiers, in the wake of the September 9, 1954 earthquake.[2] She traveled widely, giving talks in France on "Life Behind the Iron Curtain", and speaking at the BBC.[1][3]"

If you want to find more, about her activity in ww1 and later, look here:

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Caradja

Another sample of lootings (without quote marks):
1292 steam engines, 2006 passenger rail cars and 32,154 freight cars of the Hungarian National Railway (MAV) were taken to Rumania in 1919/1920 (obviously not empty). [Source: Encyclopaedia of Hungary in W.W. 1].
I don't have the relevant figures handy, but I would say this huge number exceeded the total train park of Rumania.
I can post more examples, if requested.

Gen. Dénes

Bellow, romanian sanitar material, taken during occupation of Romania, and find later in large quanrities in military deposits of Hungarian army. You can read an the boxes, in Romanian: Pansamente. Bandaje mici (Pansaments. Small bandages).

Gents,

@contras
@Denes,

I fail to understand the point and reason of this debate... what do we have to learn from all this argument ?

Personally, when I do my research, I try to see the points of view of all parts involved... just as Denes said, and I am trying to find a middle line... as they say in "Dune" - the history of the losing side will always be the more interesting one that the victor's...

Just my 02 cents on the matter.

Happy New Year all,

Al

Another sample of lootings (without quote marks):
1292 steam engines, 2006 passenger rail cars and 32,154 freight cars of the Hungarian National Railway (MAV) were taken to Rumania in 1919/1920 (obviously not empty). [Source: Encyclopaedia of Hungary in W.W. 1].
I don't have the relevant figures handy, but I would say this huge number exceeded the total train park of Rumania.
I can post more examples, if requested.

Gen. Dénes

Another sample of lootings (without quote marks):
1292 steam engines, 2006 passenger rail cars and 32,154 freight cars of the Hungarian National Railway (MAV) were taken to Rumania in 1919/1920 (obviously not empty). [Source: Encyclopaedia of Hungary in W.W. 1].

hello to all,
i saw that this post is very ...hot for one reason or other... so i decide to speak a bit about it.

we can discuss all month about looting and atrocities and everything and not haveing an final answer.

so my opinion is that mr.denes is a bit alone in this topic and i dont understand why is trying to change a perception which is all ready well formed in each side about what happent.no one from this topic wasnt born at that time and all what we talck is what other want to left to posterity whit good and bad so in my opinion this discussion is regardles.i thinck our ancesters talck about it enough...

regarding the looting stuf that i quote.... maybe thouse things that are presented to being stolen from MAV where in romania at the begining and belong to it ...
you konw i notice that many times hungarian history present the things in her defend on her one interes (which is good some time) pasing the evident truth.i read many books which i dont remeber the titles now, but in all you can fell the injustice made to all the opresed people from tha AH monarchy and not only to us and one thing i can say that some time i fell that the romanian was the most opresed....when you think that somwhere in 15 century a diet give a law that say that anybody who is not a hunagian declared must die ... and only in 19 century a hungarian noble decide to talck about injustice made in translivania...or what can we say as humans about what happent at ip and traznea where a 2 years old child was kiled by a grenade given by a hungarian soldier to play whit .... many hunagarians which are now revisionits have to think at 900 years of atrocityes in transilvania and not only...and after speak about this to other peoples....maybe they will find an answer .... is sad to talck about this

i visit all transilvania in tha past year and i talcked whit everybody that i meet (hunagarian or romanian) about this problem and at the end my conclusion was that comon people dont have anything to do whit the bad things that happent in the past and they are liveing now togheter in peace
excuse my bad english ,hope that everyone understand what i wrote


p.s. by the way i'm an hungarian ethnic

the whole point is against any attempts of whitewashing, what should not be whitewashed. it's against justification of deeds that should not be justified, especially not if it is supposed to make someone feel better because of an association by nationality.
this is just as stupid as trying to beat up your hungarian neighbour, because allegedly "they" murdered Mihai Viteazul. or any other example the other way 'round.
also it is against generalization. for example such as "900 years of atrocities in Transsylvania".
or against picking sides.