Romanian & Hungarian war-crimes

I am showing that the atrocities presented in the book "Teroarea" are common to ethnic cleansing actions whatever the time, place or party. And therefore, it is hard to consider them mere politically ordered fabrications.

Hi Denes,

I agree with much of your reply, so I will just address the parts I disagree with.

I do not agree that the book is entirely useless for historical studies. Firstly, once one is aware of its limitations these can be factored into one's analysis.

Secondly it gives sources to follow up.

Thirdly, it is not the last word on the subject. Quite the reverse. It is only the first word on the subject. As such, it is merely the foundation upon which better informed studies can build. However, until they are available it is all the general public has, so we have to make the best of it.

However, anyone who believes this book is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is on shaky ground. It would be like accepting the validity of a trial in which only the witnesses for the prosecution were available.

My recommendation is that the book is worth reading, because it deals with a real issue, but with a great deal of sceptical reservation because it contains only one side's perspective.

Cheers,

Sid.

This evening, while driving home, I heard on the radio, in the 'Without borders' program, a detailed report on the commemoration of the massacre of Hungarian civilians in the village of Ginta (in Hungarian Gyanta), in Bihor/Bihar county, by Rumanian troops, committed this very day 63 years ago, in 1944.

The report stated that 41 Hungarian civilians - from 11 to 60, men, women, and children - were killed by Rumanian troops entering the village in pursuit of Hungarian troops. Further six villagers were shot in the nearby Hălmăgel (Kishalmágy).

A small monument was recently raised in the memory of the victims, erected in the local protestant church's yard.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I did not want to open a separate thread for this topic. This thread should suffice for all similar incidents happened in this area.

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 27, 2007 07:06 pm

In October 07, 2004 mr. Takacs Peter, a Hungarian member of this forum, informed us at http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=274&st=0 that “1944.September 24.:Gyanta,48 dead innocent Hungarians” by Romanian troops.

It were 48 or 41?
It was on 24 september 1944 or it was on 27 september 1944?

Both Mr. Takacs and I give the date as 24 Sept., not 27.

As for the victims, I mentioned that according to the radio programme and the sources I consulted later at home, there were 41 victims shot in the village, plus six more in a neighbouring village. That's a total of 47. One more could have died of his wounds.
By the way, if anyone wants to know the exact number of the victims and their names, he/she should visit the mentioned memorial erected in the village.

Gen. Dénes

You said that the massacre and the comemoration was in the very date that you posted the message.
The date when you posted is 27 september 2007.

It was on 24 (mr Takacs's date) or in 27 september (radio's date)?

Or maybe the sources used by the radio program were not reliable?

Mr Takacs is mentioning 48 in Ginta alone, not mentioning the other village.
1 is still missing on the number to be 48, even if one count the both villages together.
The presumption that that one died of wounds is only a hypotesis if not proved.

In Oarba de Mures a number of romanian peasants (childrens and adults) were victims of fight for the area between axis and romanian forces, as they didnt evacuated the war zone.

If the radio post is not from Europe (and even if it is) it is amazing how interested was this radio to mention such an local event.
I'm sure they sent on the air also news and a detailed report about the comemorations from 9th september from Traznea, Salaj county and from 14th september from Ip, Salaj county.

This is very interesting, I'm interested in more details (I don't care if they were 41 or 47 or 48 or if it took place on 24 or 27 September) I want to know how were the civilians killed? Executed or were hit by artillery or they were covering in a church and were killed all at the same time. Also the circumstances regarding this incident (unfortunately I’m 100% sure it wasn’t a lonely event).

@ 21 inf : I don't see the connection between Gyanta and Traznea/Ip , these war crimes were done by different armies.

This post has been edited by mihnea on September 28, 2007 08:14 am

For some it seems too soft the sugestion...

Mihnea, isnt it very strange that a radio post, excepting probably a hungarian or romanian one, to be interested in such detailed way by a such small event as a local comemoration? And it is even much odd if this radio is not from Europe or it is outside Hungary or Romania. And I bet that the radio wasnt from Romania. In this circumstances, what is the purpose of this kind of very detailed report about a very local event? As far as I know, this kind of detailed investigations require a sum of money. Who is intested to spent money on this kind of local events? And in what purpose, like I said above?

You said that at Ginta and Ip/Traznea were war crimes.
Please define war crimes. Please define it because you said very true thing: it is not the same if civilians are killed in a war zone due to combat or they are killed in an organised way by their own village neighbors. In the case of Ip/Traznea it was an organised crime.
Will one consider a war crime if the civilians from Ginta died because an artillery shell felt on their shelter?

The numbers are important, even if not relevant. 1 more or less victim does not change the tragedy of loosing human lifes and it also does not matter if it was on 24 or 27 september. Try to review the posts of romanian members about linked articles when the autors of the posts were asked in a very demanding way to give numbers and 100% certain facts to be believed.
Some members around here contested the book "Teroarea hortysto-fascista..." because the facts are not true. My own grandfather, a survivor of Ip massacre, was interviewed by the authors of that book, he donated his ww2 era photos, and he was also put on the book with his photo, in his own garden were the killing took place. So, again, can one say that the book is not well written, and with what arguments? That the book was written under comunist rule and published at Editura Politica?

To be clear for some people who will disagree me after what I said above: to loose a single human life, is a very big tragedy and i dont like things like this.

21 inf dixit.

Mihnea, I didn't post deliberately any details on this regrettable incident as not to further exacerbate the already tensioned spirits of this highly sensitive topic on war crimes.
Suffice to say that the killings at Ginta/Gyanta were carried out execution style, with the villagers - ranging from 2 to 80, men, women, children - lined up then shot. They were victims of no shelling, no accidental fire, etc.

If you wish to learn more, I suggest you to find a good Hungarian-English on-line translator programme, so I can point you to a few links, that discuss the event. Then you can decide for yourself how accurate and how truthful the described killing were (and you're correct, these were not the only such mass killings in the area). Here is one such link:
http://www.emi.erdely.ma/?id=125
This particular site mentions that the Rumanian army unit that entered Ginta that very day was the 3rd Mountain Division. This info can be checked.

To Bogdan. Apparently, I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posting talking of the radio programme 'Without Borders'. It aired a report made on site, on 24 Sept., including testimonies of survivors and eyewitnesses. They were all talking of the same date, the 24th. It was only the programme that was aired on the 27th, which I've heard in my car.

As you can see from my above post, the killings were done deliberately, and not some sort of 'collateral damage' as you try to imply. You should come to terms of the fact that such war crimes committed by Rumanian troops did occur in the Autumn of 1944 - even if these regrettable events are not mentioned in the Rumanian literature. And yes, Hungarian troops did also commit war crimes.

As for the exact number of victims, I just found on the nets (thanks to Google) a short video clip posted on YouTube with the mentioned memorial erected in the village's protestant church's yard. There you can see the names of the identified victims, including their ages, thus you can count them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94P_T3R5LZw

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 28, 2007 06:43 pm

Just as academic interes, because one cant find reports on romanian literature about the events as above done by romanians, are there any mention in hungarian literature about such events like the much mentioned Ip/Traznea, or Marca, Cerisa and so on?

Cos looks like some alcoholic treatment this disease. Before start the treatment, it is important to recognise...

In romanian literature there are not such event mentioned, so we need more time.
What about the hungarian part?

Yes. For example, those events you're referring to are mentioned, in details, in a scholarly written book I have posted here information about earlier:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=40334

Gen. Dénes

i dont have the book.
"Transylvania on War Path"-your description says that it speakes about military actions.

That hard cover book is quite cheap, about 5 Euros. You could try to find it somewhere on-line, particularily as I've read that you know some Hungarian.

Gen. Dénes

For Gen. Denes and Takacs Peter,

I wonder what do you think of the massacre from Sarmas (Sarmash) in 1944. Do you think the culprits were from another planet ? Did somebody punish them ?

Source: http://isurvived.org/Romania-Holocaust_Sarmas.html

Holocaust Survivors' Network
iSurvived.org



The Holocaust within the territories of Romania: Take Sarmas

Photo Exhibit



Memorial to Jews massacred at Sarmas, Romania in 1944
Photo Credit: Scott Edelman
(The United States Library of Congress Archives)

I am sorry, Mateias, but stupid questions only warrant stupid answers. I refrain to give you one such answer and ask you instead to contribute to this serious and sombre thread with new and relevant information, not mockery.

Gen. Dénes