Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

Well, there goes my hero...down the drain of history's 1001 fairy tales )
I do admit, Alex, that the story of Anastasecu sounded overly heroic, but it was a good "hook" for me to bite when I needed inspiration for my diorama and thanks to Victor I found one. Is Anastasecu alive by any chance?...you know I am always thinking of an autograph )

"as only Russians were doing the TARANS in Eastern Europe at that time."

Well, technically there was one. A Bulgarian flight instructor did a TARAN on a B24 with his Avia fighter, and I believe one guy did it with his Messerschmitt, thus becoming what the Bulgarians call "human torpedo"
Artur

Dzien Dobre Pane Arthur

Thanks for the logos which I got them. Secondly I wasnt aware about any Bulgarian pilot comitting a Taran ...and 3rdly while I don't want to have your inpiration disipate, though I still think that your next diorama should do a diorama about other ARR pilots who had confirmed air kills and had more reliable records as this one .From the pilot point of view his fairy tales are pure nonsense to any pilot and even those who never flew an aircraft in their lives. I am wondering that ROM TV would interview him and broadcast such nonsense.

Whether he's a life or not ,Dan or my other Rom mates on here can tell ya, I saw an interview with him on ROM TV recorded by a friend in Rumania who made it available for me ..I am not sure to what Air Force this pilot belonged to .

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 07, 2005 11:33 pm

JERSEY BOUNCE / LADY JANE / BERTHA

All reports from the returning aircrafts, surviving crew members, wingmens and historians throught the years confirm the following , I cite :

B-24D-75-CO, 42-40609 I JERSEY BOUNCE 330th Sqd
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Flown by 1st Lt Worthy A.Long ans crew (10) in right wing position of econd element of C force briefed for WHITE III. On approach to target of opportunity (WHITE IV) tail gunner Sgt Lycester havens killed by fire from IAR 80 ( Lt Anastasecu) and its believed to be the first casualty of the battle. The aircraft was severly hit by A/A fire . N & B were WIA .No 1 and No 4 engines were set on fire and later bombay area caught fire too. Made a crash landing near VEGA refinaries. 5 of the crew survived the crash landing and were taken POW but StfSg Marion Szaras died of wunds on Aug 6th 1943.

( Therefore should have Anastasescu rammed the B-24 by no means either the B-24 on its final shape nor Anastasecu could have survided such collision ) both airplanes would have exploded upon impact or simply fall like stones to the ground. By no means 5 B-24 crews and 1 IAR crew would escape their death after a TARAN and rather in good condition ( Anastasecu injuries are not visible on his interview)

Lt Anatstasescu claimed that he brought down the B-24 , be he didn't because the aircraft had to execute an emergency landing becuase was on fire set by A/A and not Anastatsecu. Anastasescu killed just the Tail Gunner ...

B-24D-100 CO 42-40804 X LADY JANE from 329th Sqd
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Flown by Lt William E.Mechan Jr and crew (10) in the left wing position of the last flight second section of C force ,briefed for WHITE III. Hit by flack during the bombing run for the target of opportunity (WHITE IV) . Wing severely damaged through hitting an A/A Ballon .Crash landed on fire on a wheat field short of target. No fighter activity was encountered as it was later reported . Only Gunner Sgt L.Yates survided.

From all reports it looks that not only Ananstasecu didn't down any of the bombers but also simply fabricated the TARAN story by telling the CO of Escadrila 62 de Vanatoare something which who knows might have been a facing saving davice for Anastatsescu for the benefit of the CO of Esc 62 de Vanatoare .

Conclussiomn : Anastasecu fabricted the TARAN story also the entire story on downing 2 B-24

Alex



Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 12:33 am

Here is a movie with Gun Camera footage, - an attack on B17 and other planes.
Interesting!



Source: http://www.luftarchiv.de
http://home.t-online.de/home/hartmann-mannheim

This post has been edited by Victor on February 08, 2005 06:36 am

Let's not be so hard on Anastasescu. I doubt that he was the initiator of the story. Most likely it was created by the propaganda machine, like in the case of slt. av. Vasile Claru in 1941. The man was seriosuly ill last year and I do not know if he is still alive.

Alex , i said i agree with you in some respects ( no Taran version) but i can not say it was imposible a mid air collision ( an accident ) Anastasescu said that the B-24 was on top of him when they collided. So there were no report from the B-24 crew to confirm because maybe they didn't see him ( IAR 80 was a small plane compare to B-24) in that tragic moments i don't think someone had time to look to the windows or under their B-24 belly. An explosion from a collision it's plausible if are from oposite direction ( because of the amount of speeds ) but like i said if the planes were in the same direction of flight ( like Anastasescu said) and the B-24 was on top of IAR 80 and both hit by AA. Imagine the B-24 pilot make a force landing without knowing about the small plane under his belly. Anyway like i said there were some reports from AA gunners about this collision. And the position of 2 B-24 and IAR 80 nearby crashed places i don't think it was only pure coincidence. Something happens there and we know things were exagerated for propaganda purpose (But like romanian said it's no smoke without a fire).

Btw. Anastasescu was badly wounded ( brocken spine ) and he stay at least one year in hospital and have problems with his health many years after. As a fighter pilot i didn't like it too. But we know that also some american airmen exagerated about TW ( remember orange B-24, and all that IAR fighters shot down in pieces by gunners when only few romanian IAR's made force landing, and so on)

So don't spoil the Artur idol only by judging Anastasescu as not a perfect person with only defects.

Dan.

Victor ,

I wasn't really hard on him and I am sorry you perceived it this way....in due course of our discussions on here, I noticed we all strave for accuracy ... keeping in mind my 30 years of flying background both military and civil...with all due respect , logically and by no means I can'accept his version at all ,no pilot would either . I am certain even some mates of his own would not buy his story either....the fact that he's claimed a Taran as well as bringing down two B-24's , is simply a fabricated stuff by him and backed up by the propaganda tools at that time.

All records point out he didn't bring down any B-24 except killing a tail gunner which is confirmed by all parties and that's as far as he got .....and if a former military pilot or someone in the aviation community spreading such unreliable and childish stataments, he will soon find himself rather very isolated .

Its good for the mass media, ROM TV , childrens and the aviation fans who may live in fantasies but for those who flew for a living , they won't buy even 10% of his stories and stamp him as unprofessional .

Apart from the Taran story which is also a pure fantasy of his , also the claim for 2 x B-24 is fabricated at a time when fabrications were very welcomed by war machinery propaganda, rather than admit mistakes and incompetence.....let me also tell you that a day before his claims, he was punished by his CO to stay put at the base for disobeying orders and flying too low at Snagov which caused the cap sizing of a sail boat......therefore the fabrication was badly needed by Mr Anastasescu rather than admit once again troubles ,being hit by freindly fire and by B-24's and having lost his aircraft without even comming into action .

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 10:23 am

Post removed by editor.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 08, 2005 08:55 am

Thanks for alerting me Dan...I did shift the stuff .

Alex

Sorry Dan, I dont buy his story not about TARAN and not about bringing down even one B-24 , it won't work.

In addition I posses wide resources about the TW since almost 25 years and you know it...he didn't bring down any B-24,period .

Lets focus other topics of the TW because is not worth to mix patriotism with something it didn't occur at all.

The fact that he claimed two B-24's, it was fine at that time given the circumstances..it was welcome by the war propaganda machinery......his story and the story of an other pilot who brought down a HALPRO B-24 are definetly not the first time and last time when people get things confused and exemplifies the times trends they were at when such claims were brought up.

Unlike the other Rumanian pilots of the TW I heard of , he made the most unreliable stataments both on papaer and on ROM TV , especially that he's claiming something clearly denied by veterans , historians and professionals .The message I posted yesterday was something also documented on the new book called PLOESTI FROM THE LENS which is the most accurate TW research sofar . Is nothing personal towards him is just my firm conviction .

Suggest we focus other topics within the TW, thanks

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 09:26 am

for those interested in guns and ammo used in these battles see http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ Sorry if I am out of topic

Cristian , indeed , you posted it at the wrong thread, please shift this message under a new topic.

Thanks in advance

Al

Dan,Victor and All here's a message I received from Tom regarding the jersey Bounce ( he names it JB) and Lady Jane Bertha ( LJ)

Alex
===============================================


Alex,

I followed the posts on 389th TW forum and this forum . I haven't been in touch with you yet on any TW subjects. A relative of my family was a capt. with 15th AF at Benghazi and debriefed the returning 93rd crews .He died several years ago in Atlanta and may he rest in peace.

I followed through and through the TW and is part of my life . I have sufficient records on the topic you argue concerning the JB and LJ , both bombers were not brought down by the unknown Rumanian fighters ,neither Germans but by rumania anti aircraft flack and a/a ballons in close proximity to the target . Both airplanes executed forced landings , however LJ exploded during the ill fated landing. The B-24 were not rammed by rumanian or german fighters and the unkown fighter trailling smoke aimed at the TG( the gunner got killed) shortly therefater left the scene and crashed. The LJ and JB were not brought down by Germans or Rumanians fighters, this info is bytheway available on various publications about Ploesti ,though I've heard the rumanian side claim , please remember , is not homologated by anyone nor recorded at the second air div.archives nor anyone but the rumanian pilot . Please discard any other theory.

If any questions , you can reach me at TomBn11@ao Best Wishes Tom Bann,Rhode Island ,NY,USA

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 11:49 am

Very interesting facts from your friend. That means the unknown fighter who attacked BJ was IAR 80 nr 222 ( Anastasescu ) wich hit by AA or B-24 gunners crashed nearby Vega refineries.
At least we all agree that was a fight between Anastasescu IAR , B-24 BJ and LJ and AA gunners in the area ( Concordia -Vega).

Myself i am also looking for the truth.

Btw. i will make a list of romanian IAR 80 and Bf-109 pilots and the places where attacked B-24 and hit scores but forced to land by B-24 gunners.

Dan.

Dan I have agreed with you at all times about him trying to attack the B-24's after the mess he left at Snagov a day prior the Tidalwave, and none accused him of cowardice.

He went for his duty but after being shot down by his friendly fire and the B-24's , he fabricated a story which may have also used the final purpose of his CO in order not to get reprimended again eventually keep his CO safe too.

The story at Snagov circled very fast and losing the airplane accounted to the bombers just a day after being reprimended for recklessness, would have meant for sure a series of problems for him and his CO.

One thing is certain, he crashed near one of the two B-24's( presumably Jersey Bounce as the other exploded) which was so badly wrecked, that no post crash analysis would have brought any conclussions on who did what, he and his CO knew it...so why not invent a story as a face saving device ?

The Jersey Bounce is the wracked aircraft tail section with the burning refinaries at 6'oclock ( photo u posted earlier on)

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 01:03 pm