Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

Alex, only a small remark. Anastasescu was not first who fabricated this story. In my opinion probably the AA gunners ( who shot by mistake theIAR) were the first to fabricated this in order not to be punished for shooting down a romanian plane. Anastasescu was to badly wounded for thinking of his Snagov problems and how to fabricat a story for his CO safe. But after this story was published in war papers for propaganda issue it was convenient for everybody ( included Anastasescu).
Mayby Anastasescu never knew what happened before his crash and his awake in Hospital. As himself said one AA officer came to him to the hospital and told him this story of ramming B-24( maybe here is the answer ).

Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 08, 2005 01:15 pm

Dan

Now we start getting on the same wave length. I may agree with you on the last message of yours about A/A teams fearing their own status and working hard to fabricate a story which may suit their own needs...but I guess after somany years the truth and facts are blurry.

However still 1 and 1 doesnt make 3 . Anastasescu knew at all times he didn't ram any B-24's nor brought down any of them ... all he did is to bank away from the B-24 armada in oder to save his own life, why than continue tell that nonsense story about ramming a B-24's and bringing down both of them , all over throught the years ? also why not take into accountability that people overseas may stamp him as silly ? instead ,why not be honest rather trying making falsed PR ?

Ananstatsecu tried numerous years ago to convince Mike Hill of his theories as well numerous veteran groups , he ended up nowhere . All what was left to him was ROM TV and some local books because most probably his veteran pension was inadequate . I wonder what Mr Dobran and other ARR veterans who are still alive can recollect about Anastasescu ?

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 01:43 pm

Alex, as i said before i didn't like so much this guy, because all the time avoided the contact with us ( aviation fans) maybe he knew can't convince us about this story. I just said it was imposible for him to fabricated after the crash because was wounded. This was made by others and spread very quick in mass media of that days for propaganda purpose ( it was not the first time, Victor mentioned Claru). And for your question why he continue to tell this nonsense story, my dear Alex, the answer is quit simple it's an old man ( over eighty) and you know what happens with some people when ageing.
So now i am out of this, i will not comment anymore.

Dan.

PS: Only if you let me to post a propaganda drawing with Anastasescu ramming B-24 published in WWII aviation magazine "Aripi Romanesti" made by a student who was part of this massmedia fabrication story.

OK DAN please post this WWII propaganda stuff , I'd be curious to see it ....just before we close the topic, who told about the A/A visiting him at hospital ?

Thanks
Alex

Here is an email addressed to my other TW forum:

=============================================

Depends on how far back and how far forward you'd like; my dad's diaries go from 1/1/43 until late 1944 when he was rotated back to the ZOI. I can tell you that he wasn't shy about saying a particular B-24 being a pain to deal with, but I think each one had its peculiarities. It may take a while, since I'll have to scan his notes and make a listing of each one--guess I'll try to stick with the ones that the Tidal Wave group would be familiar with. The other problem will be that my dad, as did all the groundcrew, frequently helped out on other Liberators in other squadrons when the need arose; if "Big Dog" was down for a few days or transporting guys to Cairo on leave, his crew would work on "Nightmare" or "Squaw" to help the other crews get done quicker.

I'll see what I can do.

Doug

Hope it's not off topic but are there more such porfiles of planes and pilots made by Dan ?
Please post some more



This post has been edited by Der Maresal on February 08, 2005 07:09 pm

He could do it in another thread.

Attached Image

There are allready posted in some threads on this forum. ( check Bazu Cantacuzino fighters profiles). And others will come in the future.

Alex, if the 2 victories credited at that times to the romanian pilot Anastasescu we deny today, what about the other pilots ( romanian and germans). Steinmann shoot in Brewery Wagon allready 80% damaged by AA and prepared to force land. In my opinion we should be carefull to avoid double standard in judging the victories credited at TW to all pilots involved in the fight. Sgt. Bosinceanu was credited officialy with 1 B-24, but in his report say it was only the upper turett destroyed and the bomber escaped ( Cha-ga-lug).
Nobody can confirm ( nor Anastasescu or american crew ) that bullets from his guns ( who killed the tail gunners) were not hit fuel pipe from on engine or fuel tanks( remember IAR 80 B had 6machine guns in the wings) so at least we can say it could be a shared victory between AA and fighter pilot.

Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 09, 2005 08:42 am

I looked around through the 1943 diary and my dad
started out by working on "Kickapoo"; on 1/18/43 he
said that "'Kickapoo' was allright for once, I hope.".
Most of the problems were probably similar to the
other Liberators in the group, some days nothing was
wrong, others almost everything went wrong.

My dad also worked on "Squaw", "Northern Star", "Miss
Julie", "Edna Elizabeth" and others. Some of them he
would go help change out engines or plugs or help out
with something else, but from January through 8/1/43
he was assigned to "Kickapoo", "Little Chief Big Dog"
and "Edna Elizabeth". He complained from time to time
about "Big Dog", though it seems to have been a fairly
good ship, just got wore out from the desert sand and
the long missions. "Edna Elizabeth" was an old Halpro
ship that had "cracked up" and been repaired.
Sent to TW Forum 389th Bmb Grp
======================



His 1944 diary seems to indicate that a lot of the
newer B-24s coming in as replacements weren't as good
as the older "D" models they had originally. He did
have one in Italy, don't know which model it was, that
he was crew chief for over 50 missions without a
mechanical turn-back; he got the Bronze Star for that
and two weeks later the plane cracked up with a green
crew on it who'd never taken one up at full combat
load before.

All the B-24s after that one were junk as
far as my dad was concerned, particularly the
"Mickeys" or radar equipped ones. Something was always
wrong with them. Might have also been that he was
getting worn out; he'd been overseas since late 1942
and a lot of the new guys coming over were getting on
his nerves.

I'll keep looking around for other references.

Doug

Dan I agree with most of your stataments because after 62 years none can really tell 100% what went right or wrong with the ARR and German fighters and who was credited for what. One thing however remains a fact...Anastasescu broke all records with his Taran story and the 2 downed B-24's it was so childish that even my uncle who was at A/A heard about him through ARR and the Luftwaffe as being EIN ENZELN GAENGER ( lone walker) .Therefore as you stated on your yesterady post lets bail out of the subject called Anastasescu and looking into more reliable and professional topics.

Thanks
Alex

Alex, if the 2 victories credited at that times to the romanian pilot Anastasescu we deny today, what about the other pilots ( romanian and germans).

I think we, historically minded people, are not in the business to officially deny a victory credited to a certain pilot. The original W.W. 2-era documents remain the source for victories. Period.
However, what we can and should do is to discuss a particular case, compare the information from the Rumanian sources with all available information from the other side and draw the proper conclusions. This, however, doesn't mean that any particular victory is denied, only commented/annotated.
Even so - in case of Anastasescu, for example - you guys have to be prepared that someone might attack you for "destroying" a nice myth, which doesn't have much to do with reality, however. That's the risk one has to assume when studying and analysing history with an open mind, ready to accept whatever outcome the impartial investigation may produce.

Gen. Dénes

I am totally agree with you G-ral Denes. And we are prepare to fight with myth defenders no matters are romanians, germans or americans.
Dan.

Right on, Dane.

Gen. Dénes