Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

Te salut Alex,

I access the site ARR , very interesting .I will take my time to look
more deep.

I will be glad to kip in touch with you because my father is thinking
about the second volume of Tinta Rosie and with your knowledge in TW
history maybe you can help him. Do you like to have our corespondence in Romanian , or you fill better in English?

Sa auzim numai de bine,
Victor

Hello Bob

Thanks for the clarifications regarding Kane....I am not a shrink by training nor I wana be one...though why would Killer sensesely burn bridges behind him and maneuver himself into a situation where he would jeopardize his own career and risk promotions and qualify for an early discharge ? I haven't seen any Kanes biographies nor any books of his therefore by judging the body language from all photos published so far he looked to me as relaxed, friendly and rather in control .From what I heard is that Johnson was sympathetic to him and they both kept contacts throughout the years....

Talking about body language, I have uploaded at Yahoo section a photo of Kane recently published photo on PTL of Freeman ..depicting a relaxed and friendly Kane very shortly after TW eventually in Cyprus,smiling, talking to his crew,charming and far from the controversial attitudes .

From all books I red and saw about the Air Corps of WWII , as well all TW related books it seems to me that the Air Corps of the early 40's went through many command & logistical problems , mismanagement and unlike RAF and Luftwaffe they would swim back and forth through comedy of errors which ultimately would cause them countless severe human losses and fill up all Stalags through Europe ....all this until mid 44's where improvements started to pick up....I therefore could very well associate with "Killer " views and resentment over the establishment ,the chain of command and his attitude towards the system if you will him burning bridges.....and making him to a mutineer .

Switching for a moment into a new topic .....Wana ask you on why would the B-24's bounded for Ploesti wouldn't fly primarily on the Tokyos and consume it prior entering Rumania rather having the twin 400 GAL in full or almost full capacity feeding the main system over the target area?

Was there a concern related to W & B or others preventing the F/E switching x-feed pumps during enroute flight to Rumania ,was there a fear that using the tank as the primary may cause multiple flame outs should the one electrical pump of the Tokyos may fail ?

Was there only one electrical pump from the Tokyos to the main fuel systen of the B-24 ?Various fatalities over the target were related to the Tokyos put in flame over the target by the AA .....Personally I don't think that flying enroute to Rumania on the Tokyos would have caused any W & B problems ....As the Euroclydon approached the target the F/E called on intercom that the only fuel pump of the Tokyos has failed and they won't make it back home due to fuel.

Let me know and let me know the status of the promised photos

Alex

Alex, is that an email of mr. Victor Donciu?

You got it right Victor !

Alex

Alex,

Apparently Kane had three personalities, the great leader with his men(no doubt about this), second his lack of communication with his superiors when he felt his combat experience was more valuable than the advice by some that never were in combat and third the Kane that appeared when on leave in the bars after a few.....!
These are the stories that followed Kane. Nothing new as everyone knew this.

However his relationship with C was formatted over the difference in both men's approach to command decisions and probably C's favorable relations with the brass. My gut feeling is that K had a big problem when it came to where each man's group would be located when they moved up from the bases in Egypt.

In my conversation with C before publishing my book, I always felt K was given the shaft when it came to the assignment of bases at Benghazi. I was involved in a similar situation when different locations were needed for the 98th BG in Italy. When we moved to Lecce the CO, Col. Gray had four sights available and the four squadron commanders were shown each location. In order to be fair to all, some locations were much better than others, the CO placed four numbers in a hat and each commander drew a number. I drew #1 so had a great plantation's owners warehouse and sleeping quarters that I turned into two clubs, clean warm eating areas and squadron offices. Even maid service from the family that lived on the property.

So I asked C if he wouldn't mind telling me how he got the more desirable location at Benghazi and he said that K had a better place previously. In checking this it seems that wasn't completely true. At Benghazi C was very close to the Med and we were stuck out in the desert with the wind and sand. C claimed they had the same problem but looking at pictures you can see palm trees. I'll bet K was out of his mind when General B assigned the locations. No one realizes how rough it was during the 110 degree days without shade and cold nights and sand storms every day and every meal had sand was in the food. I don't think K lived this down.

Now for the subject of the extra Tokyo tanks. I had a very intelligent engineer who I trusted to regulate the transfer of fuel without my advice. So I never kept track of how he was transferring fuel. We did lose our generators and fuel pumps a couple of times but still able to return to some base without a shortage. My engineer was a bit older than the rest of us and had experience in mechanics so he was fit for the task. Very little was ever said about W&B, they loaded the planes we flew them. No one questioned how they were loaded or how much weight we had.

About the pictures I am working on this and my wife will be pleased that I finally cleaned up my office by sending you a bunch of photos. Send me your address again. In changing computers a lot was lost but don't put it on the web page .

Maj. Bob Sternfels

Hey Group,

Thanks for all of the info about Gen. Smart. I thought that I would point out that the Gen. Smart POW story is told briefly in the Dugan/Stewart Ploesti book on pages 264-265, and 292-293. Page 293 is in fact the very last page of the narrative, and the very last sentence is a quote from Gen. Smart, "At no time did the Germans ever question me about nuclear fission".

I had forgotten that this was the closing paragraph of the book, and this just further reminds me of just how much is packed in the Dugan/Stewart book. I know that we have discussed the subjects such as the wrong turn, the mission leader, ball turrets, and a few other items that have turned out to be different than how D&S originally reported them, but this was a lesson for me to re-read "Ploesti" again to refresh my memory of all that is in there.

If there is anyone on this list who does not have "Ploesti" by Dugan & Stewart, you really should get a copy. It is the underlying source for so much that we discuss on this list. You can find the newer soft cover edition on Amazon.com or perhaps some bookstores for around $8-15 depending on whether it is new or used, and even the hard cover copies that show up on eBay go for reasonable prices unless they are a 1st printing. I just ordered another copy from Amazon.com to be shipped to my brother in Kuwait, and it was less than $9 with shipping.

Regards,

Chris (Gregg that is)

Bill Hubbard and Group,

Bill asks an excellent question as to why General Smart would be put at risk of becoming a POW with atom bomb knowledge. I asked him this question during our meeting. I must admit that his answer left me scratching my head. He said that the Germans knew we were so far ahead of them on the atomic bomb that they did not ask him about it. That's all he offered on the subject and I admit his answer left me puzzled. I suspect he wanted to be where the action was and he won out on his desire to be in combat. He did mention that the B-17's he flew were shot up a lot.

Incidentally when he was interrogated after being shot down the Germans mentioned they knew all about him from reading about the Casablanca Conference in the National Geographic. Does anyone have access to the National Geographics circa 1943?

For those that have inquired about the book I am waiting for info on the best and quickest way to order it. General Smart's book is not autobiographical. There is precious little information on his career. The book is a history of WWII, written by the General, followed by a listing of all the men and women from the Low Country who served. There are short biographical sketches on them also. He allows himself about a page and a half in the book. He was shot down on May 10, 1944. He was taken to Stalag Luft III near Sagan, Poland. He was there until January 28, 1945 and then taken on a forced march to Stalag 7. His camp was liberated by Gen. Patton in April, 1945. Ironically he retired on 1 August 1966. He went on to work for NASA. If anyone deserves a biography to be written General Smart is the guy. He was there from the beginnings of the Air Force to NASA.

Thanks to all for the recent posts regarding Safely Rest. I scoured the Twin Cities this weekend and couldn't find a copy. Barnes and Noble has sold all their copies. I hope they restock.

Blaine

I've been meaning to throw in another post on "What's Available?" and one of
the things I've meant to say is that I've realized I really have come to
respect Dugan and Stewart.Whole lotta mistakes,but it's a helluva read.I
recommend it as a FIRST book for people to read...THEN when they're hooked
they can read the others.

Talking about General Smart,I ran across a mention of him in a book a while
back...will try to find the book again but it claimed that he told the
Germans about Rommel's involvement in the Hitler assassination plot.There
wasn't much else there;the book was something about German opposition to
Hitler but I was startled to see the mention of Smart.
Chris Bryant

Chris,

About General Smart.....I corresponded with him back in the early 90s asking him about Ploesti. He sent me a few letters one is published in my book," Burning Hitler's Black Gold". This one is a summary of his analysis of what happened on the Ploesti. Also, I visited him a number of years ago and we talked about the time I took him on his first mission in Africa. The plane was called "The Sandman" the same one that is pictured in the famous photo.

I suggest that you read this letter of Smart's to realize what his feelings were of the way the leader Col. Compton reacted when he turned at the wrong town. Remember the letter which is a report of Smart's Ploesti analysis was written in 1944.

Bob Sternfels

I find the book I was thinking of.It's titled _Righteous Deception:German
Officers against Hitler_. It's mainly about two German officers who
deliberately fed Hitler false intelligence {at least that's the author's
contention}to lead him to believe that the REAL invasion would come at
Calais rather than Normandy.It goes back to something I said before:that
German military intelligence wasn't very good though this book and others suggest part of the problem may have been treason rather than incompetence.

The reference to Smart is on page 130.Apparently HE was involved in a plan
to CONTACT Rommel in hopes of arranging an end to the war.It's just one
paragraph so I'll quote it in another post soon.

Anyone know how many missions Smart flew?Been wondering about that.My take
on the reason he was allowed to fly is that his "grounding" was likely a one
mission thing.Seems simple to me.
Ploesti was something completely different from other missions and some
thought losses might be 50% or higher and I doubt that the Germans were
aware that Smart knew quite as much as he did.

In fact,if that Rommel thing is true,I wonder if they might have
DELIBERATELY let Smart risk getting shot down to have him get in touch with
someone in Germany.Well,pretty far-fetched,I know....just a thought.I
haven't seen exact numbers but I believe a pretty high percentage of bomber
crew members managed to get out when their planes went down{on HIGH level
missions} I saw some numbers for the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission.{17 August 1943}60 planes were lost but only 114 crew members died.Most of the rest of the crews from those 60 planes became prisoners of war.I don't know if that's
typical but I'd guess that over 50% survived the loss of a bomber over
enemy territory.
Chris Bryant

Gang,

This has nothing to do with much of anything BUT, perhaps: While Comton was pushing on the right rudder pedal, while rotating his foot in a clockwise direction,he could have confirmed if it was correct turn,and while doing so should have drawn the figure 6 with the index finger of his right hand.
Had he done so, his right foot would had started rotating counter clockwise, saying Wrong turn, "Turn left-Turn left"!

Try it. While seated at your desk, lift your right foor off the floor and proceed
rotating it in a clockwise direction. As you are rotating it in the clockwise direction, take your right hand draw the figure "6" in the air. Your foot will start rotating in the counter clock wise direction. You will find you have no control over it. "IF ONLY" !

You now have taken a break from some of the more serious stuff on this site. By performing this little physical abnormality it should have resulted in a little chuckle or two for you.

Happy April 1st.
Kent

Pat,

Yes I believe he was a member of the 93rd. I am in California, and don't have my
copy of Ted's Travelling Circus. Take a l ook in the back of the D/S Ploesti book, and I think he might be listed there.

According to Luke Bird, there were four officers that came in without a plane available for Ploesti, so they were assigned to other aircraft as extras for the mission. I think that Hinchman was another extra. In the back of Hill's book he has four crew listed as not knowing where they were. I am not sure but I think these names came after he gives a crew list of the 44th, or perhaps the 389th, or even maybe the 98th. I just don't remember. I'll be heading back to Oregon in a few days, and can double check my info.

Kent

Absolutely.

The paperback was given to me as a fourteen-year-old, Christmas 1964.
I remember vividly picking it up and opening it to the chapter "The Circus in Hell."

"Hooked" is the word, brother.

I remember sitting at dinner, waiting for my family to finish so I could bolt back into the other room and pick it up again.

Flaws and all, it remains, in my opinion, the standard, a BRILLIANT piece of writing. I find myself reading from it every year. It's why I'm here with you folks.

I called Cal Stewart several years back, to thank him. I had absolutely no problem telling him that it was MY FAVORITE BOOK. I love it that much.

I would like to recommend that you get a hardcover original printing copy. It contains PHOTOS unavailable in many other printings. In fact, that's how I met Kent Jaquith, running up the bid price on two 1st edition copies on eBay. Once again, alibris.com has these on a regular basis.

I'd like to say thanks for all the inspiration you folks provide. Tidal Wave is a passionate subject. I have managed to drag a number of my friends into this, most of whom have little or no interest in similar subjects. They may secretly think I'm over-the-top on this, but they can ALL tell you who Lloyd Hughes was. And they've all heard about Killer Kane, Norm Whalen, Bob Sternfels, Roy Harms, Jesse Franks and Ivan Canfield. And the Tidal Wave news group.

Thanks for listening

Dave Hurd

Austin, Texas

From the book _Righteous Deception_:


"A captured American Air Force officer,identified by General Speidel as
Colonel Smart,spoke at length about an attempt to make contact with Rommel
about negotiating an armistice.Colonel Smart had been shot down over Vienna
on 10 May 1944.Under interrogation,he admitted that a plan existed to
contact the Feldmarschal to arrange for an ending of the war,and that he
was a part of that plan. Smart's testimony was written down in the officers'
Prisoner of War Stockade at Oberursel; copies were sent to Reichsmarschall
Herman Goering,Propaganda Minister josef Goebbles,and the Air
Ministry.Rommel was not told anything about Colonel Smart or his
testimony,and never heard about the secret plan to contact him."

Earl,

Ice cream and TW remind me of the days after TW when my left middle ear stated to hurt like a sore tooth. Dr. at the field hospital(tents) applied what he was using for my" athlete's'" foot ;to my ear! The next day I was on a plane to Cairo. The stuff he used took all the skin off my inter ear!. Good doctor? They did nothing but stick a thermometer in my mouth at 6:AM but we made ice cream every day! You would have loved it..Was there a month and finally they said I could rejoin my unit. I asked where it was? They said you will have to find out. Could have jumped ship at that point as no one cared where I was nor did they help me to Benghazi. For all I knew the war might have been over. Did get a ride back to Benghazi and sure enough my crew and plane were still there. No ice cream until a year later when I got back to the states!

Bob S.