Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

fanthastic photos, though from all records I have from Luftwaffe, 15th AF, 376Bmb Grp and 8th AF as well US National Archives in VA,,,,,,only one pilot was credited with 2 confirmed B-24 airkills......Haptmann Wilhelm E. Steinmann under Huptmann Manfred Spanner...ARR may have damaged some Liberators on that day air to to air and ground to air though no 2 confirmed kills of the ARR are anywhere available

Al

Carol Anastasescu,has also 2 cofirmed kills.
One B 24 by cannons and the second by unortodox methods-ramming...
I tried meeting him two years ago ,but he was ill...
Don't know if he's still alive.

I must admit that you are basically right , during the war there many confussions, many exagerations and air kills which were probable were confirmed and those who were confirmed were turned into probables due to human errors, frequent loss of pilot and equipment ....however the historians from the 15th AF , 376th Bmb Grp, 98th , 44th ,93rd,389th all 7 historical books I have on Tidalwave, Luftwaffe Archives, US Goverment archives , they all say one thing and the same ...two B-24's at Ploesti. Here is the record of the Luftwaffe

Here is the translation from the Luftwaffe Personnenregister ( Fliegender Personal) , Berlin


Wilhelm Steinmann was born on 15 January 1912 at Nürnberg. He joined the Luftwaffe in 1936 and trained as a bomber pilot. Steinmann served with 3./KG 53 from 1939 to 1941. He later served as Technischer Offizier with II./Fliegerkorps. He then underwent conversion training to become a fighter pilot. On 6 October 1942, Steinmann was posted to the Gruppenstab of I./JG 27 based on the Channel front. He was serving with 3./JG 27 when he recorded his first victory on 18 May 1943, a RAF Typhoon fighter-bomber shot down over the Channel. On 1 June, Steinmann claimed a RAF Spitfire shot down. However, he had made a mistake in identification and had shot down a Bf 109 G-6 flown by the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 27, Hauptmann Erich Hohagen (56 victories, RK). Hohagen was forced to bail out of his Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 16 391) but had been wounded in the incident. Hauptmann Steinmann was exiled to Romania to the staff of Jagdfliegerführer Rumänien as punishment. Steinmann was transferred to I./JG 4, based in Romania, in mid-June 1943. He shot down two USAAF B-24 four-engine bombers during the American raid on the Ploesti oil refineries on 1 August. He was the single pilot to bring down two American bombers on the same day. On 14 September 1943, Steinmann was appointed Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 4 based in Italy.

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 15, 2004 05:22 am

Are you saying now that there was an other ARR pilot who shot down two liberators also on the Tidalwave ,beside the other Roumanian pilot and Hauptmann Wilhelm Steinemann ?

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 14, 2004 10:23 pm

Mytzu

Please run the tests on the using the parameters of the the B-24 and your wind tunnel , maybe you can run a small scale test ? I am really curious. I have a 1 : 40 hrs pilot familiarisation footage of the 15th AF B-24 dated 1942 ...except the palying back and fort with the supercharger during climb and cowl flaps from the pilots point of view I dont think it was more difficult to fly than the B-17's , once gained speed was manuverable and was well better equipped than the B-17.


Sint curious de resultatele dela tunelul the vant.

AL

Here is something from the USAF Magazine :


The Ordeal of Sad Sack II
=================

The heroism of Sad Sack II's crew typified that of the more than 160 crews that bombed refineries at Ploesti in the low-level attack of Aug. 1, 1943.

Most readers of AIR FORCE Magazine are familiar with the Aug. 1, 1943, low-level attack on refineries near Ploesti, Romania. A carefully prepared plan for simultaneous strikes on assigned targets by a force of almost 170 B-24s was disrupted en route by bad weather and navigation error. It was, nevertheless, a day of unsurpassed heroism. Leaders of the five B-24 groups saved a broken plan from disaster--but at a terrible cost. Nearly one-third of the B-24 force was lost in combat or forced by battle damage to land in neutral Turkey.

Many stories and several books have been written about that mission, but less has been said about the heroism of individual crews. The story of Sad Sack II, a B-24 from the 66th Bomb Squadron, 44th Bomb Group, epitomizes the valor and self-sacrifice of so many on that mission.

The 44th, an Eighth Air Force group, had been sent to North Africa to participate in the Ploesti mission. Col. Leon W. Johnson, commander of the 44th and later a four-star general, led 37 of his bombers on that mission.

Unlike the two groups that preceded him, Colonel Johnson turned at the correct initial point and led 16 of his planes to their target--the Columbia Aquila refinery--while 21 of his bombers broke off to attack another target. The 16 descended to their bombing altitude of 250 feet. They could see that their target had already been hit by another group in the confusion of the disrupted plan, but Colonel Johnson, who would later be awarded the Medal of Honor, elected to continue his strike as planned.

As the 16 B-24s approached their target, which was obscured by heavy black smoke, they came under concentrated small-arms and antiaircraft fire from all sides. Before "bombs away," Sad Sack II, piloted by 1st Lt. Henry Lasco, took many hits. Left waist gunner SSgt. Charles DeCrevel was shot through the thigh. Tail gunner Sgt. Thomas Wood was killed. The No. 2 engine was knocked out, and its propeller would not feather. It seemed to the crew impossible for any plane to survive a bomb run through the maelstrom of smoke, fire, and exploding delayed-action bombs that engulfed the target. This was it.

At bombs away, navigator 2d Lt. Harry Stenborn's chest was torn open by an 88-mm shell. He managed to crawl along the bomb bay catwalk to the rear of the aircraft, where he collapsed and died. Top turret gunner TSgt. Leonard Raspotnik and radio operator SSgt. Joseph Spivey were hit. Neither survived. Lieutenant Lasco knew then that they could not make it back to North Africa. He decided to head for Turkey.

By this time, Sad Sack II was at treetop level, vibrating badly, and barely able to remain airborne. Several Bf-109s attacked the critically damaged bomber. The wounded Sergeant DeCrevel continued to fire at the enemy fighters, downing one, while ammunition boxes exploded around him. He was wounded by more shell fragments. SSgt. Albert Shaffer, the right waist gunner, kept shooting at the fighters, though one of his legs had been almost severed by enemy fire.

The bomber was down to about 50 feet with one wing low when a Bf-109, coming in level at 10 o'clock, shot the pilot through the face, stunning and temporarily blinding him. Copilot 2d Lt. Joseph Kill leveled the wings just before Sad Sack II bellied into a corn field. Bombardier 2d Lt. Dale Scriven was killed in the crash; both of Lieutenant Kill's legs were broken, and one of his ankles was dislocated.

Lieutenant Lasco was pinned in his seat by a harness that would not release. He finally managed to free himself, remove the tangle of wires around Lieutenant Kill's legs, and drag him out of the burning wreckage through a hole in the fuselage. Still dazed, Lasco staggered off to look for help. While he was gone, Romanian peasants stole Lieutenant Kill's watch and ring, beat him, and left him for dead.

Sergeant DeCrevel fought his way out of a plane he later described as "a pile of burning junk." Then he remembered that Sergeant Shaffer was still inside, immobilized with only one functioning leg. DeCrevel went back and dragged Shaffer out of the wreckage. After stripping off his own smoldering clothing, DeCrevel also went for help.

Of Sad Sack II's nine crew members, all had been wounded and five killed. The four survivors--Lieutenants Lasco and Kill and Sergeants DeCrevel and Shaffer--became POWs in Romania until they were rescued by Fifteenth Air Force B-17s in late August 1944, after the Germans had retreated before advancing Soviet troops.

Aug. 1, 1943, will always be special in USAF history. It was a day of supreme heroism on a unique scale, when hundreds of men laid their lives on the line--and many lost--to complete their mission.

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 14, 2004 11:10 pm

In total, three Rumanian fighter pilots claimed doubles on Aug. 1, 1943:
Lt. av. Ioan Bârladeanu,
Lt. av. Carol Anastasescu,
Adj. sef av. Dumitru Ilie
The latter pilot of Gr. 6 vân. reported to shot down the two B-24s south of River Danube, over Bulgarian territory, without witnesses; therefore, his claims remained unconfirmed.

There were a total of 14 B-24 claims filed by Rumanian fighter pilots on that busy day.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 15, 2004 01:43 am

Looks like we have a (retired) officer on the forum.

F-16D, huh? Very, very cool. You should be proud of your accomplishments. Not many people can claim to have done what you used to do. Most just dream about it or spend their time talking about it on historical forums....

Since you also wrote a few words in romanian, I assume that you are an american who was part of the USAF, but of Romanian descent. Correct?

In any case, welcome to the forum once again. It's good to have someone with practical experience on the subjects discussed...

Denes

Since there are no gun cameras photos ledt to back up the Roumnian pilots claims, the aerial testmonies of their own mates are the sole proves ......2nd air divison pilots n aircrews of the 15th AF who managed to get back to Lybia were debriefed byAF and Intel...Luftwaffe made their aown ssesments too and recorded the intelligence gathered,.which finally was adopted throughout the years by historians and guys like u...I am puzzled that the odds are 1:100 ......it simply can't be that entire 15th AF , US Inteligence, Luftwaffe Abwehr und Aufklaerungsdienst , historians and airmen who participated at Tidalwave were all wrong......I rather tend to believe that the figures of ARR are exagerated and unless proven they aren't recorded else but at ARR Forum and with ARR vets who may wana paint a rozy picture which ocurred as well with other allied and axis fighter groups and later on revoked or endorsed ....I am certain that you agree with me....but if u dont lets buid a time machine n set Aug 1st,43 as starting date

Alex

PS; THe 15th AF recorded a pursuit event over Bulgaria by a Bulgarian Pilot called 2nd Lt Stefan Marinopolsky on a BF-109 who attempted air to air work against the returning armadas, though failed in full........no records whatsoever of a roumanian pilot overflying Bulgaria who may have had an unconfirmed twin kill of Liberandos

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 15, 2004 05:51 am

Only 3 of his claims were credited with the gun camera ( his gun camera film was brocken after his 3rd "Fw-190!!!" strangely coincidence the exact nr. of 6th FG looses.) The other 2 claims were sustained by his wingman Lt. Morrison but i doubt that he had time to stay only for Hatch victory observer and not watch his tail were IAR 81C chasing both in that melee fight over Popesti Leordeni.

And BTW the gun camera don't show all the time the plane crashed but mostly the hits on the enemy plane who could be only damaged.

Alex I will try to do it but not in the wind tunnel - I am not that rich I will do it first on paper, then I will simulate it on a grid (in order to do this I will need to model 3D a B24).

Alex here is a possible scenario for Tidal Wave overclaims:

One B-24 arrive at Vega rafinerries and was hit in extreme right engine by a 88 flak shell, the b-24 with an engine burning with smoke loose alttitude -the AA gunners claim a victory. The pilot managed to gaine altitude and leave the area. On the way back 30 miles south Ploesti a german Bf-109 chase him and kill the tail gunner and knock him the left engine near fuselage- the crippled bomber was considered a sure victory by the Bf-109 pilot who was low on fuel and he had to come back to the airfield. But the crippled B-24 still airworthy after 20 miles more was jumped by 2 IAR 80 who gave the final shot on his right valid engine and the plane crashed - the two romanian pilots claiming a shared victory.

So the final count is 3 victories and only one B-24 shot down in reality.

I found the data related to this picture:
B-24 H-10-CF

Sn. 42-64499 Pilot Peterson 456 BG, 745 BS
Hit by Sgt. Bill P. Garcia ( nr. 18220948 ) bailed out from another B-24 and crashed near Ploesti on 5/5/’44 (MACR 4749)



Attached Image

Before I start doing this can anyone provide me information that will help me build the 3d model of a B24 ?

Also please note something: the ammount of surface that can create lift on the right wing (the dammaged one) is around 50% of the initial ammount (you must take out the engine canopy and a certain space around them and also a certain space near the fuselage) - keeping this in mind try to immagine what happens when you suddenly lose half of your lift on the right side while flying such a beast at low speed, you just don't have the time to compensate (even if it would be possible to do so, which I highly doubt).

It will be quite interesting to simulate this and find out what happens, so anything that will help me build the 3d model is much apreciated.

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on December 15, 2004 10:37 am

Cantacuzino, thanks for your answer......now it starts making sense to me..I guess there were many confusssions on shot down whom and as such it finally leads back towards my initial message

Many thanks , its very helpful

Alex

Hi again, how and where did you find the photo because is an other position but is the same aircraft...though from what I keep hearing from 376th Bmb Grp it occurred on Tidalwave and not in 1944.....do you have details on the aircraft of Bill Garcia ( its name not serial number ) .....secondly if a human impact causing such destruction at impact gives me to think that they weren't at low altitude bombing but at higher altitude at cruise speed ........that might have been a hell of an impact and a disaster for all who saw it in real.....god bless him. I would be very interested if you have additional details on this incident, thanks in adavance

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 15, 2004 01:35 pm