What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

Some off-topic posts have been deleted. Imperialist, if you have something to communicate to another member and it is not related to the topic, please do it by PM.

Alexkdl, you undoubtedly have vastly more experience with aircraft than the average member here, but it would be better if you would share your experience with us in order to educate the simulators users. You must also understand, that unlike Lockheed (IIRC that is the company producing the F-16), Saab and BAe advertise the Gripen very aggressively in Romania and that could be a reason why many are fascinated by it.

Presently there is a Romanian small UAV project called the IAR T if I am not mistaking, but it isn't thought as a combat aircraft. But from here to UCAV it is a long way and a lot of resources are necessary for this, resources that somebody has to invest. But in my layman (and subjective) opinion the human element is very difficult to replace with high-tech. Battlefield surveillance is one thing, combat is another.

Victor, for the last part of your post, try to look here:

Northrop Grumman Demonstrates Weapons Drop from New Medium-Altitude UAV Prototype


Source: Northrop Grumman


"SAN DIEGO --- Northrop Grumman Corporation successfully demonstrated the ability to release a weapon from a medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) demonstrator during flight-testing conducted Feb. 24 over Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.

The drop of the 500-pound inert weapon from Proteus, the manned UAV surrogate developed by Scaled Composites, Mojave, Calif., is the latest in a series of company-funded activities focused on addressing the U.S. Department of Defense's expanding medium-altitude endurance UAV requirements. It also supports an on-going, Northrop Grumman-funded effort to develop a new multi-mission MALE UAV dubbed Model 395. Based on Proteus, Model 395 will be able to perform a variety of missions ranging from traditional intelligence gathering to weapons delivery.

“Today's test was flawless,” said Steve True, Northrop Grumman's Model 395 test director. “It was the culmination of a rapid prototyping process that allowed us to define and conduct risk reduction, proof-of-concept testing for a new weapons delivery concept in just over 30 days. Exceptional support from the Air Force's UAV Battlelab at Indian Springs Air Force Auxiliary Field, Nev., the 98th Range Wing at Nellis, and EDO Corporation, developer of the weapon release system, also proved instrumental in allowing us to meet a very ambitious schedule.

“The weapons drop is the first of several demonstrations the company has planned to exercise and highlight Model 395's ability to fulfill a variety of special customer mission requirements,'' True added. The next flight demonstration is planned for later this year.

“The jet-powered Model 395 is a cost-effective, multi-role, multi-mission UAV with the right altitude, speed, endurance and payload capacity to perform tasks that span our customers' air operations,'' said Chris Hernandez, vice president and general manager of the company's Unmanned Systems unit. ``In the hunter-killer role, it can carry multi-spectral sensors to detect and track targets and myriad munitions to destroy those targets.”

According to Hernandez, the Model 395 system will also extend the reach of air commanders by providing tailored support to ground forces in near-real time in almost any combat situation. A family of modular payloads will allow it to be optimized quickly for a variety of missions including signals intelligence, psychological operations, communications relay and area surveillance.

In addition to its 900-pound internal payload capacity, Model 395 will be able to carry external payloads of up to 6,500 pounds. It also has more than 100 cubic feet of unused internal volume.

Model 395 is the latest addition to Northrop Grumman's portfolio of UAVs. It rounds out a capability spectrum that includes the high-altitude, long-endurance RQ-4 Global Hawk aerial reconnaissance system; the medium altitude endurance Hunter II; its shorter-range, lower-altitude RQ-5 Hunter tactical UAV; and the RQ-8 Fire Scout vertical take-off and landing tactical UAV.

Model 395 builds upon investments by both the Department of Defense and Northrop Grumman for development systems that include the joint DARPA, U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS), the U.S. Army's Fire Scout Class IV UAV for the Future Combat System, the advanced vehicle management system and future UAV ground control elements.

Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems is a premier aerospace and defense systems integration organization. Headquartered in El Segundo, Calif., it designs, develops, produces and supports network-enabled integrated systems and subsystems optimized for use in networks. For its government and civil customers worldwide, Integrated Systems delivers best-value solutions, products and services that support military and homeland defense missions in the areas of intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; space access; battle management command and control; and integrated strike warfare. "

I think humans are in the right way to almost reduce the presence of pilots in planes over the battlefields.
Too bad, romanians don't had enough money, experience, and technology to enter in this elite.

I have doubts about a good result for a fighter UAV, good enough to do dog-fight against a manned fighter. Maybe just a supersonic platform with capabilityes to launch long range and medium range missiles - an useless toy when enemy is too close.
We can hope, related to UAV just to have an 100 % projected and manufactured one for our Aviation. Just for surveillance.

Iama, a real copy+paste aviation freek

Hi Iama... what about a lighter UAV designed for Close Air Support/ground attack? (not carrying 6,500 pounds! wow!)
I think they are worth researching for the Romanian Army. A light UAV capable to accomodate a good targeting system and one or two hellfire missile for example could be deadly. And cheaper than an attack heli.
Call me a fellow copy+paste/gamer dude, but I think this kind of UAVs would be extremely dangerous in the hands of guerilla units trained for the job.
Frontline troops and bases are generally equipped with AA equipment capable of engaging UAVs from the distance.
However, I dont see that happening with all convoys and units. The UAVs could hit the soft spots and do lots of damage.

take care

Buna Victor

Yes , I absolutely agree and thank you .

I want to rectify that there are people on here such as you , Dragos, Denes, Dan , C-2 ,CIP,Barbosu , and various other members who not necessarily have to be pilots in order to understand military aviation trends and equipment ....what I wanted to express is that there are people on here who aren't pilots and yet I love talking to them about things only aircrews understand and contribute with my knowledge for their topics....what I was trying to say is that.....people got used on here to use derrogatory terms such as niggers, word starting with F...., fascist and hidden neonazzist propaganda , anti US and NATO comments which only AL QUIDA, HIZZBOLAH , AL AKZA Brigades would use ....and produce continous incitement against US ......and fully deflecting from the purpose of this forum by saying comments such as F-16 is a crap airplane,Antonescu was a national hero, Rumanian Army was a usefull partner of the SS in WWII ....or the other using tasteless and sarcastic terminlogy such as Shalom Bin Landen ......

Victor, most of the people in Rumania after Ceausecu fall understood that America and Western Countries are the saviour of the new Rumanian state.....which was never the case and it will never be and is a missconception.

US and Western have no whatsoever sentiments and compassion towards new Rumania neither other former Eastern European countries unless you guys posses same nuke Arsenals like Ukraine and Russia...what counts is what Rumania has to offer to the Americans, French ,Sweeds and Germans in order to get aid and commercial outlets into the EU from them ...because in the West ,Money Talks Bullshit Walks and the entire society is nothing but materialistically oriented.... I understand the frustration at your end though we in Europe dont live in honey and milk , neither Rumania has to forget that your society was always even during the WWII inclinded towards the West and not the murder gang of nazzies from Berlin and Rome.....I am upbeat that people in Rumania understanding that despite the help they gave the Whermacht in WWII , they have no friends and priviliges in Berlin of than and now whatsoever!


I agree about SAAB Grippen ads campaign in Rumania , therefore the excitement at your end is obvious ......my personal feelings tells me that Grippen last export customer was Hungaria as RSAF bailed out of it , Emirates stampped it as too expensive to operate, Oman didnt even wants to talk to the selfrightious Sweeds and even FMV in Stocholm may reduce the ordered numbered, while Austria froze the decision because they were happy to lease 20 ex Swiss AF F-5's.

Now when the EFA is almost mature for series production in UK and Germany and cost less to operate than JAS...F-16D Block 60 who twice superior in performance and lower in operational cost and the enhanced Rafale....I franklly think that the JAS 39 exports days are numbered. The Hungarian probably got exports outlets into Sweeden and I don't rule out major bribes involving this lease .

In conclussion, I don't expect anyone to be a pilot on here ...all I expect and I hope is that people stop stereotype and get personal , cease using derrogatory comments, incitement and fascist propaganda on here and if they really can't ,than they should do it at their own space and time and not on here.

My thanks to all who can share my opinions with me and contribute the the benefit of the forum. I am moving on now...Victor whats the story about this plane project depicted on the fron cover ...Allien 5 ?

Al

Mr Imperialist I always use my own medications...do you ?? ( let me know if you dont understand the statament)

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 04, 2005 05:44 pm

Attached Image

Yes, Mr. Alex, I totally agree, and I hope you'll apply these rules too.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on March 04, 2005 04:47 pm

Mr. Alex

It is our pleasure. To read and comment what we read about what we like - computer games, computer things, military technology, history, pretty girls and some politics. It is an open forum, not one restricted to professionists, experienced members, people with a high value of expertize.
What you expect from us? To be quiet, an to resume just to read what only 10 - 15 of the forumist write in the topics? Or, our posts to be somethink like: "Thank you X or Y", "a lot of thanks x or y", "thanks again X or Y for your prof. posts...", "thanks..". Or to do a mass un-subscribe and to let prof. to be alone here and to talk in a closed doors style? (Useless hopes! )

Question: you realisewhat you do? You split this forum in 2 parts. Let's check: "Dragos, Denes, Dan , C-2, CIP, Barbosu" "and various other members who not necessarily have to be pilots in order to understand military aviation trends and equipment" (we know well who they are) and ... the rest. None of the persons named by you, or other non named by you, none of them, do that thing. And be sure some of them had more knowledge than you!

Maybe is hard to believe by you - but i really apreciate your posts. Keep posting, keep posting good posts ( - when you post from "Google" source [pictures and info's about russian acesc, for ex.], you are a copy + paste, to; and when you scan, or make quotes from books, again you are a copy paste just like us, you know?) .. i like when i see pictures with your collection, miniatures, pictures from your collections, info's gained by you in years and years of your passion for Tidal Wave, etc.

Please, take more care when you post again about others opinions, or prefferences - some may be upset for that. Victor, Dragos and Denes show to us from time to time yellow cards (warnings) when we make mistakes, and upset others. You catch the point?

So, let's make pace, and let's continue to be good forumists, all of us.

On topic:

Mr. Aleks, please share with us some words about F-16i and if is possible, make a prof. comparation between "i" and other variants of this plane. Because - if we (RoAF) may use F - 16, for sure, it will be an up graded variant LanceR style after an Israely - Romanian industry colaboration.

Iama

Hi Iama... what about a lighter UAV designed for Close Air Support/ground attack? (not carrying 6,500 pounds! wow!)
I think they are worth researching for the Romanian Army. A light UAV capable to accomodate a good targeting system and one or two hellfire missile for example could be deadly. And cheaper than an attack heli.
Call me a fellow copy+paste/gamer dude, but I think this kind of UAVs would be extremely dangerous in the hands of guerilla units trained for the job.
Frontline troops and bases are generally equipped with AA equipment capable of engaging UAVs from the distance.
However, I dont see that happening with all convoys and units. The UAVs could hit the soft spots and do lots of damage.

take care

Well, i remember about a "Tehnica si Tehnologie Militara" issue, one of the few nombers edited by Modelsim. At the end of this magazine i read about a DASA project (i hope i don't have a bad sector in my memory). Two variants - one with pilot, and one unmaned. A multi-barelled gun and some air to ground weapons.

What you say is like in future, urban querillas trow out RPG-7 from his arsenal and bagin to use hi-tech birds with more powerfull projectiles than RPG-7! Waw! Don't say any more! Maybe an Al Qaeda member is logged in this forum and catch the ideea...

But, a CAS UAV for romanians - a local developed one, to not be dependents from other countrys materials, spar parts, etc. it is a beutifull dream. Maybe, a team of romanian engineers will start such a program with a traditional minimal sum of moneys....
Tell me, in your vision how could it be this UAV?

Iama

I dont know if I should tell you on a forum. I did some research on the subject (as an 'amateur' ofcourse) and went pretty far with my idea. Its not a totally original idea, because the UAV technology is strongly researched in the US. My only contribution was to adapt the UAV theory and technology to a guerilla war. So its rather an operational innovation rather than a technological one.
Because the technology is there, I know it would work, because I'm not increasing the UAVs/UCAVs complexity (try to make it carry 7,000 punds instead of 6,500 or from 10,000 to 15,000 ft, or spend 6 hours airborne instead of 4 etc. for example) but rather make it simpler and adapted to guerilla strategy.

Well, I dont think they'll drop their RPGs, they'll just use the UAV to increase their firepower and cause heavier losses with smaller risks.

Still, these things have to prepared early on.

take care

Alexkdl said:

Well, no I dont. I generally take a smoke from other people's medication too. We pass it around, you know?
Now lets smoke some peace pipe and chill out.

take care

Well, no I dont. I generally take a smoke from other people's medication too. We pass it around, you know?
Now lets smoke some peace pipe and chill out.

take care

Good ideea!

Iama

IAR T is'nt a combat aircraft, but he can give a lot of help in combat theatre. Look at Dragon Eye, another mini UAV, and let's think what help can give for, let's say romanian Blue Helmets.

Look at this picture. It had apropriate dimenssions like IAR T - i read about him in Top Gun romanian magazine.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articl...os_20052111.asp

here is the link for the rest of the gallery, and some words. Look what images can provide!

Iama

PS - Imperialist, think about what help can give such a mini UAV to guerilla teams in urban fighting. Imagine a reverse picture - Faloujah and Dragon Eye used by iraqi troops / guerilla, for real time surveillance against US troops.

Some time ago i read about ASAT weapons. Rockets launched from an F-15 to destroy russian spy sattelites. I try to imagine a new concept: mini UAV with fighter role, for interception of enemy's mini UAVs! Science Fiction close to reality. Like in computer games!

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Real time surveillance will use a goddamn lot of bandwidth to be guerilla-compatible!!! Plus it will increase exposure time. (Although the smaller the UAVs get, the more exposure becomes irrelevant, so I dont count that out)
The guerillas have lots of men on the ground for surveillance, they dont need eyes in the sky. They need only weapon platforms in the sky. The simpler yet high-tech, the better. Shoot and scoot platforms...

As I said though, iraki guerillas have no chance to develop this, this would take some time and research and finances. This can only be prepared early on.


take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on March 08, 2005 05:01 pm

IIRC, late last year Hezbollah sent an small UAV over Israel for reconaissance. And it was not the first time this has happened.

Gen. Dénes

If this post is too OT, please delete him.

US Program F-22 Raptor is under a critichal eye. On of the key people in military US aviation, "Riccioni, who pioneered supersonic cruise technology and the F-16 Lightweight Fighter Program, says the decades-old F/A-22 Raptor program is broken and too expensive to fix. ", "Col. Everest Riccioni (USAF ret.), a pioneer in combat fighter design"...

I find this article after i read romanian articles about MiG 21 LanceR program, and about what dirt receive this program from press. US Airforce had problem too.. with their Raptor program:

"Legendary Fighter Pilot and Designer Says the F-22 Raptor is the Wrong Weapon at the Wrong Time


Source: Project On Government Oversight (POGO)


In concert with the Project On Government Oversight (POGO), Col. Everest Riccioni (USAF ret.), a pioneer in combat fighter design, has published his critical analysis of the Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor fighter jet program.

Riccioni, who pioneered supersonic cruise technology and the F-16 Lightweight Fighter Program, says the decades-old F/A-22 Raptor program is broken and too expensive to fix. From his unique vantage point, Riccioni traces the history of the escalating cost projections and ever-changing justifications for the Raptor program. It is obvious that the official data have little basis in reality, and vary greatly with time. Unabashedly, the previous official cost quotes are immediately forgotten, according to Riccioni.

The F/A-22 program currently costs $72 billion. The unit cost per plane has rocketed from $35 million to $257 million. With that, the number of planes the Air Force can afford to buy has dropped significantly. If the President's proposed FY2006 Defense budget is approved, the program would be cut back to approximately $61 billion, but the Air Force would only be able to acquire 180 aircraft. This would bring the cost to over $330 million per aircraft. Moreover, such a small fleet of fighter jets would have little to no impact in a real combat situation.

Riccioni also argues:

--The F/A-22 has no role that can't be filled by today's fleet of U.S. fighter aircraft. Al Qaeda doesn't train, enlist, or use fighter pilots, Riccioni writes. Terrorists do not employ fighter forces. There is no need for new air superiority fighters.

--The F-22 was designed and conceived during the Cold War to penetrate deep into Russia, achieving air superiority, to break up the expected large formations of Warsaw Pact bombers that were to enter and attack Europe. Now those threats no longer exist.

--The reduced numbers of F/A-22 aircraft will adversely affect the Air Force mission. Most important, 175-250 fighters do not allow for multiple, simultaneous missions like the thousands in our F-15, F-16, and F-18 fleets can perform.The solution: Upgrade the current F-16 and F-15 fleet with modern avionics systems like radar technology and situational awareness systems. By cutting the Raptor program, the Department of Defense would free up approximately $5 billion annually, money that could be spent on other, truly critical defense needs like supplying combat forces in Iraq and America's continuing Special Operations missions against terrorist networks throughout the world.

Danielle Brian, POGO's executive director, praised Riccioni's work. "The ever-eloquent Riccioni raises important questions in this report that the Air Force should not be allowed to ignore."

POGO investigates, exposes, and seeks to remedy systemic abuses of power, mismanagement, and subservience by the federal government to powerful special interests. Founded in 1981, POGO is a politically-independent, nonprofit watchdog that strives to promote a government that is accountable to the citizenry. "


Iama

Just as a note... Supersonic Cruising is an old thing. Many fighter had it. BAe Lightining, Mig25, etc. F-22 just push it to a diferent level .