What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

Also,the news is pretty old now. However, I read somewhere (don't remember the publication) that USAAF will still manufacture a certain amount of Raptors. I don't even know if this are good or bad news. I,personally,found better continuing Comanche program instead going up with F22 programme since things were quite clear against who USA will fight. Well,apparently they seen that too late. At least the industry got so needed cash.

Also, Zayets, look here:

"Source: Project On Government Oversight (POGO); issued March 11, 2005"

Of course is old - some days.

Iama

And a link to the 23 pages entire document in a .pdf file, from POGO site:

http://www.pogo.org/m/dp/dp-fa22-Riccioni-03082005.pdf


Well, at first page it say: "March 8 2005".

This discussion was almost 2 months ago.

An overview including Romania. How old are this Block 15? The same age with our MiG's? I think their are older than Bis variant of MiG-21, who, however, we don't have..

Future Fighter Aircraft Requirements in Emerging Economies


Source: Frost & Sullivan

issued March 30


"LONDON --- The next ten years will see continued growth in purchases of new fighter aircraft. Outside North America and Western Europe, this will especially be the case in Asia where up to US$ 7 billion may be spent on new fighter programs. In Eastern Europe and Latin America, several countries will be making important strategic decisions about the future of their air defence capability in the near future. It is therefore essential that the companies involved are aware of these opportunities in order to offer the best possible conditions to potential buyers.

India expects to experience sustained economic growth in the next decade and wants to ensure that no threats to the subcontinents security will endanger this growth. In line with that, there will be large-scale purchases in order to boost capability and replace old equipment.

Approximately US$ 3 billion have already been spent on 140 new Su-30s that will be delivered between 2007 and 2017. "Up to 130 medium sized fighter aircraft are also needed, and a notable shift was made when it was announced that F-16 is considered as a strong contender. Also, more new training, special mission aircraft and helicopters are needed for all three services. All these purchases will be followed by additional related contracts for MRO and Training and Simulation worth hundreds of millions of dollars," reports Marko Lukovic, Research Analyst at Frost & Sullivan.

China is much more of a mystery, as the nation's defence procurement system is still completely opaque. It is known that they have been heavily modernising their Armed Forces over the past decade, but it is not certain what kind of a mix of modernised domestically produced and imported equipment the Chinese have managed to acquire. It is known that the purchases of Su-27s have stopped after about 120 were built. "However, it is unclear whether this had happened because they wanted to build them with better avionics after the EU sanctions are lifted as expected, or because the indigenous J-10 fighter is considered to be a better value product," Mr Lukovic adds.

Chinese Defence industry is eagerly awaiting the final decision regarding the lifting of EU sanctions and will continue the procurement drive only after the necessary adjustments have been made to include new technologies they expect to buy, should the sanctions be lifted.

In Eastern Europe, the countries currently in focus are Bulgaria and Romania. Both of these countries have been looking to buy western aircraft for over ten years in anticipation of joining NATO, but there were other more pressing priorities. Now that both countries are full NATO members, it seems fighter aircraft procurement is finally due. Judging by their spending to date, Romania is likely to purchase up to 50 second hand F-16s Block 15 or similar, which will then incrementally modernised as funds are made available, probably with Israeli assistance. The Bulgarian procurement decision is still very much open to speculation, but it is hoped that their plans will be announced soon.

In Latin America, most countries have cash-strapped Air Forces that need replacement of a large portion of their inventory but cannot afford it. There are, however, a few notable exceptions such as Chile and Colombia. Chile has placed an order for 10 Block 52 F-16 and will be negotiating a second batch later this year, while the Colombian government has just announced that it has set aside US$ 540 million for a purchase of 22 new combat aircraft to be used against the guerrillas and drug producers.

Although it is the most powerful country in the region and the largest economy, Brazil has cancelled the troubled F-X fighter project. As most of Brazilian Air Force inventory has passed or is very near the end of service life, it is to be expected that 20-30 combat aircraft will be ordered in the next 5 years. Otherwise, the current airworthy fleet will find it increasingly difficult to control airspace over the Amazon and prevent narcotics transports.

"From the few example listed above, it is clear that the procurement of fighter aircraft will continue steadily in the next decade in countries outside North America and Western Europe," Mr Lukovic states. There is a clear market shift towards the emerging regional and global powers such as China, India, Brazil and South Africa that want to go beyond pure self-defence and project that power.

Mr Lukovic further observers a notable shift in procurement methodology, especially in India and Brazil, where the emphasis on quality and value for money has gained in prominence, and procurement decisions are no longer based purely on political reasoning.

"It should also be noted that procurement of fighter aircraft in countries mentioned above is relatively undeterred by the emergence of Unmanned Combat Airborne Vehicles (UCAVs), although some of them have long-running UAV programmes." Despite the fact that the global defence requirements have changed beyond recognition in the past 20 years, the multirole capability has ensured that there will be a requirement for manned combat aircraft for at least another two decades.

Frost & Sullivan, a global growth consulting company, has been partnering with clients to support the development of innovative strategies for more than 40 years. The company's industry expertise integrates growth consulting, growth partnership services and corporate management training to identify and develop opportunities. "

Iama

Thats stupid!
Why buy 50 block 15 (thats decades old!) and then spend more money and time modernising them, when we should buy 10 or 20 block 52?

Well don't forget that Israel already modernised its Block 15 so it won't be a big thing.
After all 50 planes is not 20
Decades old is one thing, the number of flight hours of the aiframe is different one.

COPYRIGHT F-16.net
Block 15
In November 1981, the Block 15 introduced MSIP Stage I changes to the F-16A/B starting with subblock 15Y and continuing through subblock 15AZ. More than a year earlier, in February 1980, these modifications were already effective on the F-16C/D production. The changes expanded the F-16s growth potential by allowing improved capabilities in the air-to-ground and BVR missions.

One major modification was the addition of two hardpoints to (and structural strengthening of) the chin of the inlet, designated hardpoints 5L and 5R. To offset the shift in center of gravity caused by the weight of these two additional hardpoints (and eventual stores attached to them), the extended horizontal stabilator (the so-called "big tail", 30% increase in area), was fitted. The new tail also provided better stability and more authority for out-of-control situations. It changed lift-off rotation speeds and allowed stable flight at higher angles of attack.

The AN/APG-66 radar on the Block 15 Fighting Falcons was provided with an early version of a track-while-scan mode for greater air defense capability. The F-16s were also equipped with Have Quick I secure UHF radios, and internal provisions for the AIM-7 were made. Additional structural strengthening was performed to allow an extra 1000 pounds of ordnance to be carried on the underwing points. Last but not least, pilot comfort was enhanced by improving the cockpit air conditioning.

The production run of the Block 15, saw 983 aircraft produced over a 14 year time-span, and took place on 3 production lines. The first Block 15 F-16 ( #80-0541, the 330th F-16 built) rolled out in 1982. In 1996, the last block 15 was delivered to Thailand, the 11th Block 15 customer. Early USAF Block 15 aircraft were later (1987-1993) retrofitted to Block 15OCU specifications.

Block 15OCU
214 aircraft from Block 15Y onwards received upgraded systems starting late-1987. Designated Block 15OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade), these aircraft are powered by the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan. These aircraft also have structural strengthening and are provided with the enlarged HUD that was first introduced on the F-16C/D. Also incorporated are the capability to fire the Norwegian Penguin Mk.3 anti-shipping missile (built by Kongsberg, US designation AGM-119) and the AGM-65, provisions for the AIM-120 Amraam, radar altimeter, expanded computer capacity, data transfer unit, wide-angle HUD, AN/APX-101 IFF, Tracor AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser and provisions for the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pod. These modifications increased the max. TO weight to 37,500lbs (17,010kg). The first Block 15OCU was delivered in January 1988, and from 1988 onwards, all Block 15's were built to OCU specifications.

This post has been edited by tomcat1974 on April 14, 2005 07:46 am

Yeah, but I mean, its one thing to do a MidLifeUpgrade on them if you already have them, and they were actually state of the art when you bought them, and another thing to buy them only to upgrade them, especially when other blocks are on the market.
If upgrading a Block 15 would make as good as a block 50/52, I guess everybody would buy the airframe of block 15 and hire an Israeli firm to do the necessary upgrades.
Suddenly all F16s would become amazingly cheap.

At least thats how I see it. I think 20 block 50/52s are better to buy than 50 block 15. We should go for quality not quantity.

take care

You are right, but unfortunatelly is not 100 % a happy thing to have 20 F-16 and "a lot" of LanceRs than 50 ex Block 15 - at a momment up graded to more capable level. I don't want to be understand in a bad mode. We are in a dilema, one who will be resolved only by politcians. In a bad mode, il bet!
Returning to begining of my post, i will underline an example - after first years from 1990, Romania had a squadron of MiG-29 operational. In that time was a scarry weapon for Occident, i think all fighter pilots from west dreamed to be victorious against that type of plane, and they was trained against Fulcrum (and SU-27). 29 was a two engine plane... and with that in mind i cannot stop to dream to a fantesy, something like "Another Time Line" Romanian Air Force.. with more than 50 Fulcrums, maybe in Sniper up grade variant... Well.. what i want to say?
Aaaaah! Yes, i remember: at that time we had a squadron of capable Fulcrums and a lot of Fishbeds - obsolete from electronics point of view - and some 40 (*?) Floggers, not so much different in capabilitys (let's ignore Hongs and IARs).
So what is the difference between then and the future? Smaller nomber of total planes, not so operational LanceRs, reduced nomber of Air Bases, and ... a new squadron of US Made fighters, single engine (old) second hand arrow head of our Air Force? Or, another variant: a squadron of Block 52 - but comparing 1990 and after, Fulcrum was feared... It is Block 52 feared now like was Fulcrum at that time?
In that case, when is better? Then, or in future?
Ok, is a variant with 50 or so F-16 Block 15 modernised with israelian firms.
It is much difference between our experience with LanceR programme?


Iama

Iama, from public data, we would be the only ones to BUY Bloc 15 F16s only to pay for their upgrade immediately after!!!
Something is wrong with that picture. Its like buying a gap then applying a stop-gap program to it!!!
It looks more like a cool deal for the US and Israeli upgrade firm, rather than for Romania.

Recent orders:

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f16/

As you can see, there are countries far wealthier than ours (I mean SK) that buy small numbers of Block 52s for starters.

p.s. can a bloc 15 be upgraded to block 52?!

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 14, 2005 10:34 am

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=30968

In topic "Military tradings" - the most apropriate topic for this subject, i posted a message entitled "World Fighter Market Impacted by Major F/A-22 Program Cuts", were are described some problems in other programms.

About F-16, unfortunately, someone will be "impaled" (*? tras {in} teapa), and i think we will be chosen to buy Block 15, for the progress of another country...

www.airforce-technology.com this guys added some up dates to their site, no? I used some other from a while..

Iama

Its not about affordability in the case of F22. It being the newest US fighter, the US will keep it for itself and sell it when they are already one step over the F22, or they develop an export variant. Until then its F16s all over the place, as we can see in the news...

Also worth noting is the Pakistani decision to buy at least 50 F16s Block 52.

Now if we are to compare the two countries, Pakistan has a GDP of 68 bn.$, while Romania has a population 7 times smaller but a GDP of 60 bn.$..

So why would Pakistan afford those F16s block 52, and Romania can only afford block 15?

The thing is we can afford a block 52, but the incentive to buy that is not there.

After joining NATO our politicians want to relax. Part of the strongest military alliance around, Romania no longer feels threatened or compelled to invest money in important defense projects.
I fear the Block 15 - Israeli upgrade program is just another way of dragging our feet with minimum cost while enjoying the benefit of strong allied protection.
How long will this upgrading project last? 5-10 years?
Maybe when questioned about our defense efforts, we'll be covered for that period -- "hey, we're involved in upgrading with our friends the israelis, give us some slack"...

p.s. Anyways, I hope the block 15 thing is just a typo, or just wrong info, and our Air Force will make the right decision!

take care

Is hard to accept (who cares what my person want..), but if we buy F-16, why to not buy some from uprgade Block 60? A little more effort, but it worths.

"BLOCK 60 UPGRADE
The Block 60 F-16E/F, which is being developed for the United Arab Emirates, features extra payload and range, in part due to the new F110-132 engine being developed by General Electric, which produces 145kN of thrust. New avionics for the Block 60 includes a higher-speed mission computer, a new display processor, 3 large colour LCD displays, advanced data transfer unit with a fibre-optic data transfer network Precision targeting is achieved by the Northrop Grumman integrated navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR system using mid-wave infrared arrays and Northrop Grumman’s APG-80 agile beam active electronically scanned (AESA) radar. Northrop Grumman is providing the Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite. First flight of the Block 60 aircraft took place in December and the 80 Block 60 aircraft for the UAE are scheduled to be delivered between 2005 and 2007."

From link gave by Imperialist, some messages up.
If we buy F-16, let's buy last version!

Iama

Block 15 Upgrade is cheaper .. I would buy it then upgrade it and buy a huge amount of ammo for them.
Block 15 is the most produce F16. . Dutch , Norge ,Portugal and Dannish F16 are Block 15.. I do suspect that Info was not correct. There where rummors about Romania to buy F16 MLU's ..meaning F16 Block 15 upgraded.

This post has been edited by tomcat1974 on April 15, 2005 07:27 am