What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

is that yet again, "the world hates us, because we're so special" story?
Greece gets a large number of F-16s. they'll buy 60 EF-2000 (or at least announced the intention to do so). so they are "allowed" to build a competent air force. but why? because of the ouzo? or the great souflakis? or haikidiki perhaps?
unfortunately, it's much more real: they're ready to fork the money over, because they feel a competent air force is of national importance. despite the corruption which isn't unheared of in Greece either.
and they're less than half our size populationwise and don't really swim in money.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on September 23, 2009 06:42 pm

is that yet again, "the world hates us, because we're so special" story?
Greece gets a large number of F-16s. they'll buy 60 EF-2000 (or at least announced the intention to do so). so they are "allowed" to build a competent air force. but why? because of the ouzo? or the great souflakis? or haikidiki perhaps?
unfortunately, it's much more real: they're ready to fork the money over, because they feel a competent air force is of national importance. despite the corruption which isn't unheared of in Greece either.
and they're less than half our size populationwise and don't really swim in money.

I don't think Greece is a valid comparison given the entirely different paths taken in history vis-a-vis the US and the West:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0..._agreement2.jpg

And I did not talk about hate. I only said nobody is interested in making us militarily strong.

You simply have to look at our current position in the world to understand that. Our role is no longer that of "sovereign, independent and neatarnati."
The West is already producing plenty of high-performance weapons. They need us only for their economic expansion and geographic extension, not for their defense. Our defense effort is purposefully kept low so that we can afford spending on their consumer products, we can absorb their capital investments and give them cheap labor both within but now mostly outside the country and so that at the same time we're kept militarily dependent on them. Several rabbits killed with one shot. To simplify it, a colony's role is to be a market, a source of profit and at most to hold some weak auxiliary corps. No sane imperialist will want to make a colony militarily strong because 1) tensions could go out of hand in the region and 2) the colony could get ideas and take fate into its own hands. If you find the term colony too rough for tender ears, replace it with anything else, maybe you prefer client state or satellite state.

Secondly and more on-topic, how does corruption really work in this deal? I can only see two options - the aircraft company wants to get new orders so it "stimulates" politicians in a country that has to buy the fighters. Or a Government has to get rid of second-hand airplanes and wants to get some cash in return while giving some companies a side-deal to "modernize" them. Corruption is a two-lane road. And in the case we're buying second-hand jets I don't see how the manufacturing or "modernizing" company would have something to do with this corruption. So the two Governments have to be the main players. Since I doubt our own politicians are so stupid as to insist on getting second-hand jets, I suspect the side that is stronger in the negotiation wants that.

as if we ever were.

you mean they're out for our money? the 17% we couldn't fork over to get the rest of 83% from the sum of 50 million to clear the Bega river?
as long the capsunari-transfers are a major income for a sizeable part of the population, i fail to see where exactly the economic expansion is aimed at.

it has been quite a few years since Romania joined the NATO. it was clear that the present fighter aircraft will have to be replaced with a new system, be it F-16, Gripen whatever. The "crisis", which everybody is using as excuse, even for the ozone hole, started officially last september.
5 years NATO and not even a clear decision what to purchase.
Poland went ahead and got for the price of 1€ 22 MiG-29 from Germany, where the mutual friendship is exceptional. then, 2003 they decided to buy the F-16. i guess they like Poland more than us, since they are "allowed" to build a decent air force. slibowitz beats palinca?

pretty much every decently sized eastern european country went ahead and did something for their air force, be it the MiG-29s of slovakia, or the Gripens of Czech Rep. and Hungary or F-16 of Poland.
world conspiracy again? because we have the potential to become really strong and kick some serious geo-strategic (i love that expression) butt?
or perhaps everyone else was more serious, responsible and professional? or less balkanic, so to speak.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on September 23, 2009 10:27 pm

Of course they're out for our money. Why wouldn't they be?

Poland was part of the first wave of NATO expansion and its role was to enchance the protection of the German power center. Of course it's treated slightly different than we are. What great Western power center do we directly border?

Why should it be that it's either a world conspiracy or we're the pit of balkan stupidity? You mentioned corruption but you seem to focus on the Romanian side alone, as if someone would corrupt us without having something to gain from it.

i guess i know myself when to stop or not. i suggest reading into the diffrences of F-15E and K version and also my typing. i also said the price difference is made of both factors. USD and equipment.

if you heared the 50-60 million quote so many times, certainly it won't be a problem to source 1 or 2, would it?

Ok quote 50-60 million on both CNN news and the BBC news.

According F-16.net surely should know
Greek- Block 50/52 36-38 million euro's!
Israeli- Block 50/52 F-16I 55 million dollars!
United Arab Emirates- Block 60 80 millions dollars!

I already stated theis arguement is point 100-125 million for a old design like f-16 is to much for Romania! Consider this new FC-1's which is about 90 percent as good the F-16 is only 15-18 million current! And can use our weapons from the Lancers, Magic-2M, Python 3, etc so would much cheaper add on costs!

As for the F-15E most of the difference in price is due to inflation!

i'd say i stand corrected for the ~22 million$ for bl 50/52+ with the annotations:
with the Greece example, indeed they got 50/52+ config
the F-16I however is a different configuration, with modifications and customizations for the IAF requirements.
block 60 for SA is also a different version. E/F and I are not stock C/D bl. 50/52.

the standard bl50/52 (not "+" as i stated) was around 19 million $ (quote from 1998).

i am 100% with you for this point. as long, of course it's flyaway cost. for that money we could buy the EF.

certainly, inflation is a factor. but the inflation from 1998 to 2006 wasn't cumulative 300% to warrant the more than threefold price increase. actually the USD inflation between 1998 and 2006 was 22%.

i am 100% with you for this point. as long, of course it's flyaway cost. for that money we could buy the EF.

certainly, inflation is a factor. but the inflation from 1998 to 2006 wasn't cumulative 300% to warrant the more than threefold price increase. actually the USD inflation between 1998 and 2006 was 22%.

Finally we agree my main points, most importantly that 100-125 mil. per is too far too high for the F-16! for Romania! 22 mil for 5-6,000 hour F-16 bl-25/32 is robbery!

Inflation may gone 22% overall in from 1998-2006, but it has gone alot in the last 3 and half years. Also some sectors such defense have gone up 300 or even 400 percent!

This post has been edited by Stephen Dabapuscu on September 24, 2009 07:36 pm

is that yet again, "the world hates us, because we're so special" story?
Greece gets a large number of F-16s. they'll buy 60 EF-2000 (or at least announced the intention to do so). so they are "allowed" to build a competent air force. but why? because of the ouzo? or the great souflakis? or haikidiki perhaps?
unfortunately, it's much more real: they're ready to fork the money over, because they feel a competent air force is of national importance. despite the corruption which isn't unheared of in Greece either.
and they're less than half our size populationwise and don't really swim in money.

Well Dead-cat I agree you 100% and could not have have said better myself! The problem is not that no one is willing to sell us weapons, for example BAE/SAAB made us a most generous offer for Romania to build 48 JAS-39 gripen under license, and we would not have to pay anything for them until 2020! Well the Romanian Gov. refused the offer! Our problem is leadership, or really lack of leadership. If it were up to me, the Romanian AF be receiving new JAS-39's soon!

This post has been edited by Stephen Dabapuscu on September 24, 2009 09:17 pm

Of course they're out for our money. Why wouldn't they be?

Poland was part of the first wave of NATO expansion and its role was to enchance the protection of the German power center. Of course it's treated slightly different than we are. What great Western power center do we directly border?

Why should it be that it's either a world conspiracy or we're the pit of balkan stupidity? You mentioned corruption but you seem to focus on the Romanian side alone, as if someone would corrupt us without having something to gain from it.

Looks like we are pit of stupidity, as our leadership can't make any deal or even make choice of fighter type!

This post has been edited by Stephen Dabapuscu on September 24, 2009 09:34 pm

Lots of other nations refused it and those who got it only leased it. Just look at how many nations use it. That is the ultimate "popularity contest".
It simply is not a good enough aircraft.
Radu

Define good...

True!
Someone's "good" is someone else's "bad", especially when it comes to warmachines.
Radu

Lots of other nations refused it and those who got it only leased it. Just look at how many nations use it. That is the ultimate "popularity contest".
It simply is not a good enough aircraft.
Radu

As always you completely misunderstood the point which I was attempting to make! As for your claims that the Gripen isn't a very good fighter "rubbish"

This post has been edited by Stephen Dabapuscu on September 29, 2009 10:06 pm

France can sell to Romania 60 Mirage 2000-9 second-hand.

http://ziua.net/news.php?data=2009-09-30&id=39987

I have no idea what point you were trying to make other than "the Government is incompetent". Please allow me to give you some bad news: There is no nation that thinks their government is "competent". Enjoy your freedom to dissent, it is a good thing.

You misunderstood what I said. I invited you to look at the number of nations that use the Saab Gripen. "That" is the measure of success. Saab are not "generously" offering deals to anyone looking for a jet fighter, they are "desperately" offering deals to anyone looking for a jet fighter. Good things sell themselves, they do not need to be backed by "generous" offers.

Radu