What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

One more thing!

Redcooper,
I do not have an opinion on everything. I am not an expert. I clearly and openly state that my knowledge is limited. BUT, everything I know, however limited, is due to the fact that I am willing to listen.

Now, what was the "question" you wanted answered? If I can help, I will.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on April 03, 2010 08:34 am

Those questions? Who's going to know ALL the answers? Anyhow, part of them "should be" military secrets, right?

Those questions? Who's going to know ALL the answers? Anyhow, part of them "should be" military secrets, right?

I am an aviation enthusiast. Ask me about aircraft and I may be able to answer. The resident "conspiracy theorist" is someone else. Ask him.

I agree with you, Romania cannot afford the F35. I have been saying all along that Romania cannot afford any expensive jets.

I do not know anything about IMF or Visas. The resident "imperalism", "oppression" and "inter-state relations" specialist is someone else. Ask him.

You are asking the wrong people using the wrong forum. There is no such thing as an unanswerable question, only badly posed questions.

Radu

An 'enthusiast'... Hmm. So are we, all the others participating in this discussion. We are just throwing ideas in the pot. It seems to me that your ideas are more important than others and are thrown in the pot rather forcefully.

My questions are rhetorical - I didn't/don't expect an answer in here. They are not based on expertise, rather on logic. these are the questions a Romanian taxpayer should demand from their government.

Regardless of what plane they choose, these are the logical questions expected AND answered. BTW - I don't see what is so secret in there...

My opinion surely doesn't matter so I will leave that out. Let people make up their minds - the information is out there if you bother to find it. And I don't want to influence anyone.

If people think this is a good deal - that is fine. I just hope they make an informed opinion, that's all.

Redcooper, since we are all "welcome" to "express our opinions", why do I get the strong feeling that you would like me to shut up?

And what is this wicked opinion of mine that rubs you the wrong way? I am trying to express how I see some "good" in this whole mess. Many prefer to see only the "bad". I can bet that no matter what aircraft was chosen, these people would still find some "bad" in the deal.

This is what we got, this is what we parade with. You may not like that, but having a go at me will not fix it in a hurry. Don't shoot the messenger.

Radu

Why a conspiracy theorist, because I can't understand how Poland is able to buy 48 new Block 52s for 3.5 bln $ with offset, loan-term loan, training, spare engines, missiles and bombs included, while we buy 24 worn-out Block 25s and have to pay 1.3 bln $ for training, technical assistance and "revitalization"?

My math is poor but to me it looks like for Poland 24 new Block 52s had an overall cost of 1.75 bln $, while our overall cost for 24 old Block 25s is 1.3 bln $. And you say the second-hand planes per se were actually free! So if they weren't free one could expect our overall cost to go up to 1.5 bln $ or more, almost as much as 24 new Block 52s! From the info we have the deal makes no sense.

Also about 5 years ago Venezuela wanted to upgrade/refurbish its old Block 15s and got a deal for... only 100 million $ from the Israelis!

As for inter-state relations, I'm not a specialist but since I've spent many years studying this field I think I know more than the average Joe and I strive to become a specialist.

Go here: http://www.f-16.net/news_article4043.html

Here is a quote (I underlined a few words)
"The F-16s will be offered at no charge, but Romania must stump up the cash to pay the cost to train pilots, maintenance crews, upgrade local infrastructure at airfields and any updates necessary to the airframes. The aircrew training costs are estimated to be in the region of $400 million dollars and will take place in the US over a 12 month period."

Pilots, groundcrew and infrasctucture would require extra expense, no matter what Romania got.

Outside Romania, this is generally regarded as a good deal. The only ones complaining are the beneficiaries, the Romanians, (both within and beyond Romania's borders). Reminds me of Ion Creanga's "Povestea Lenei" and the punchline "muieti-s posmagii?".

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on April 03, 2010 12:45 pm

You can read it on http://www.f-16.net/news_article2892.html
Good news! At least we got some new ones, too! Probably... But see the costs! In Romania everything is more expensive than in any other country in the world! But it should not surprise us, so happens when we are so rich! And we have such leaders like ours, who cost us so much!

My mistake! I just noticed that the article is posted on May 19, 2008. Sorry! Interesting is the fact that the contract details were known from that time, without anyone (from the officials) in Romania give details about that to the public (secrecy does not hold when it comes to public money!). And to try a more favorable bargaining (or maybe they did but we didn't know?).

Radub - your opinion is welcome - I don't see why not.

Only I have a feeling you repeat it over and over again, trying to convince everyone etc. I find it tiring... And it sort of degrades the quality of this discussion.

But don't stop on my account.

To rest my case, count your replies since my last post - LOL

It would be more interesting if you could back up your statements from relevant sources.

Don't worry, I won't mention it again.

Redcooper,
I am not trying to convince anyone. I am having a conversation on a forum. Since you addressed your posts to me personally, I replied. You count my replies as some kind of "issue". You are upset by me "replying to you" but earlier you were upset by me "not replying to your questions". Make up your mind.

I am a firm believe that since in life you cannot have everything you want, you might as well start liking what you have. ( To quote Mick Jaegger, "you can't always have a Chiuaua". ) This is all I am saying here. No amount of wailing, moaning, accusing and stirring on forums will ever lead to Romania finding I don't know how many billions to buy new shiny toys.
So, accept it: We are not rich, but we can manage.

I speak regulalry with many foreign aviation enthusiasts (and by "enthusiast", I mean more than just some random dude in a pub, I mean engineers, pilots, historians, officers - you do not know me, but those who do, know that I know a thing or two about aviation, not a everything, but enough). All of them are quite impressed with the 24 free F-16 that the Romanians got, plus the chance to train Romanian pilots in America. Few nations can boast that. Romanians are obsessed with their "image in the world" and how the world perceives them. Well, this forum is watched by many people around the world, and so far, Romanians come across as thankless, vain and petty, with a neat penchant to "strike" anyone of their own who is not in line with "agreed line of thinking". I guess, in the olden days, I would be digging the Canal for daring to have an opinion different than that of the "flock". You should rejoice the richness and variety of opinion and try as much as possible to avoid the innate Romanian desire to comply.

My sources are relevant. F-16 net is a very relevant source and it has no political or partisan interests. Journalists are definitely not a good source of info, hence the confusion that reigns over this whole issue.

Radu

Haha - that is some spinning - you should be a politician, otherwise you are trolling! LOL

Romanians come across as thankless, vain and petty, with a neat penchant to "strike" anyone of their own who is not in line with "agreed line of thinking"

That is exactly the attitude you seem to have when replying, imposing your point of view as the only valid option... which confirms my impression.

It is not worth continuing this discussion, except... will only reply to this, then walk away: rhetorical questions do not expect an answer - therefore I could not be upset for not receiving one... I was rather puzzled when you tried . Now I see you don't get the point even after I spelled it out for you. Maybe you are blinded by your unusual need to get your point across, despite the flawed way of doing it.

It is not my job to educate you, so as I said before, feel free to ignore me.

But I rather expect some irrelevant, caustic, maybe insulting reply from your part... I hope I am wrong, for your own good (as a person I mean - before you interpret this as a threat - LOL)...

Redcooper,
If you disagree with what I say, try to provide a counter-argument. This is a discussion about aircraft, not about me as a person and how you perceive me.
Try to play the ball not the player, if you can. In my opinion, this type of personal attacks warrant a warning from the moderators.
Radu

redcooper, I don't understand what is your problem. Everyone is free to express his opinion in a way that does not violate the forum rules. If you feel that forum rules have been breached or you have been subject to personal attacks, please use the Report to moderator button. In exchange, you drift away from the subject and start a personal debate. Please stay on the subject and avoid personal remarks.