Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

His first B-24 shot down in a locust tree forest west of Bilciuresti, comuna Poenarii-Burchi.



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And the second B-24 shot down NE of Contesti near Butimanu( probably "The Sad Sack II").

Near the wreck is Barladeanu .


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wow, absolutely great pictures, probably taked from the military arhives

about Poenari, i was't sure about the exact location of this vialage, i thought is the Poenari at west of Bucharest, but the big number of trees in the area leed to the Poenari from near the Ploesti, thanks for sharing

fanthastic photos, though from all records I have from Luftwaffe, 15th AF, 376Bmb Grp and 8th AF as well US National Archives in VA,,,,,,only one pilot was credited with 2 confirmed B-24 airkills......Haptmann Wilhelm E. Steinmann under Huptmann Manfred Spanner...ARR may have damaged some Liberators on that day air to to air and ground to air though no 2 confirmed kills of the ARR are anywhere available

Al

Alex that is not the wingtip it is half of the wing - and yes, it will get you inverted (I do work in wind-tunnel section).

fanthastic photos, though from all records I have from Luftwaffe, 15th AF, 376Bmb Grp and 8th AF as well US National Archives in VA,,,,,,only one pilot was credited with 2 confirmed B-24 airkills......Haptmann Wilhelm E. Steinmann under Huptmann Manfred Spanner...ARR may have damaged some Liberators on that day air to to air and ground to air though no 2 confirmed kills of the ARR are anywhere available

Al

From your words I see that you haven't actually accessed any Romanian archives or read Romanian sources. Why would you think that Luftwaffe claims also include ARR ones?

Mr. Craciunoiu has another idea of Lt. av. Bârladeanu's personal emblem, a waiter coming in hurry and yelling "vine baiatu'!" (as shown in his book on AR - without the second R)

Col. Dénes

Fantastic thread, everyone....

Alex and EIGHTBALLSLEGEND (Steve), you were or still are both military pilots. I am curious to know what equipment you flew on - or still fly on.

[QUOTE]QUOTE (Cantacuzino @ Dec 14 2004, 03:48 PM)
Barladeanu personal emblem " Tenebras" on the fuselage of IAR 80 C nr 279.


Mr. Craciunoiu has another idea of Lt. av. Bârladeanu's personal emblem, a waiter coming in hurry and yelling "vine baiatu'!" (as shown in his book on AR - without the second R)

Col. Dénes

Maybe he got that ideea in an restaurant been thirsty and waiting to long the waiter to come with the wine.

I wasn't unfortunately born when the air kills took place on that date.....I reffer to various books and archives on which is mentioned with great certainty that only one Luftwaffe pilot managed to bring to Liberators down on that day.....so do you think that accessing the data base you mentioned would change the picture? or were all other US, Luftwaffe , related books and arhives wrongly informed...which of course there's such possibility ...an bytheway I did access data base related to ARR claiming the 2 air kils , are there any gun camera photos to back up the ARR claim ?


Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 14, 2004 04:23 pm

I possibly, though I have to look for a few photos of WWII when B-17', B-25's, B-26's and B-24 came back with severer damages , however if on that outboard wing the hydraulics and flight control cables where thorn apart , yeah your theory would fully apply I also wana cite you one example a few years ago......when an Israeli F-15 which is a rather a very heavy fighter ,during a mid air collission lost 3 1/2 part of the left wing ..and yet it managed to land.....I know B-24 is heavier and designed differently......I still stick to the theory that control cable thorn apart and loss of hydraulics may bring the plane beyond control...and since you mentioned wind tunnel involvement...can you please tell on what area of activities do you work ?

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 14, 2004 04:34 pm

Hello

As far as I am concerned I was one , by now I fly B-757/767 XLR freighters and nothing but this ....regarding Steve you got to ask him. I did fly F-16D series Block 40 , T-38 , PC-7 and PC-9

Take Care
Alex

Alex, I know about the F15, but lets compare the F15 with the B24 a little what is the trhust provided by one P&W F100-PW-100 and two P&W R-1830-65 Twin Wasp, also the difference betwen the mass of an F15 and a B24 and also the difference between the aerodinamics of the two planes.LEast but not last: what kind of controls had a B24 and what kind of cotrols has an F15 remember: it was hard enough for a B24 pilot to pilot the plane without any dammage, just immagine what happens when all of the sudden you loose half of your right wing on that machine.

The control cable theory might also be correct, but I highly doubt a B24 can fly with only half of the right wing, actually we can do some math and see if it is possible to fly.Tomorrow if I have time I will look into B24 profile data and lift surface of the wings and will do a basic "calcul"

I work as an engineer at a subsonic wind tunnel.

Ha Ha ha !
That's a good one!!
It is the same as the Mikey,with a lance and without a horse

The idea was that one cannot just ignore the Romanian claims simply because the Luftwaffe does mention them. From what I seen in Tony Wood's list of Luftwaffe claims, only the 49th Fighter Squadron (from the 4th Fighter Group) has claims confirmed by the OKL in late 1943-early 1944. Does that mean that there were no ARR claims on the Eastern Front except those?

When researching the events on 1 August 1943, one should take into consideration all sides, including Romania. Since the subject of pre-23 August 1944 was tabu during the Communist era, tehre was no serious historical work dealing with the Romanian fighter activity published until way after 1990 and then most in Romanian. Few books published in English use proper data on ARR.

Gun cameras weren't used on IAR-80B&C fighters of the 6th Fighter Group and of the 45th Fighter Group or the Bf-109Gs of the 53rd Fighter Squadron. But I also doubt that the Bf-109Gs of JG IV had, yet their claims are considered valid. Why shouldn't Romanian claims be taken into consideration? All pilots can exagerrate, especially in those conditions. It wasn't restricted to Romanians.

And since we are talking about gun cameras, 2nd lt. Herbert Hatch was credited with 5 "Fw-190" shot down, 1 probable and 1 damaged on 10 June 1944, using most likely his gun camera for evidence, as he was the only one who returned. Yet the losses of the 6th Fighter Group that day don't support his claims. The gun camera wasn't perfect.