The Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, 60 Years Ago...

That's Ceanu Mic...Ceaunu Mic is little pot And the localities listed below are near Turda. Comsesti is aproximatly at the half of the distance between Cluj-Napoca and Turda.

How many Romanian soldiers died in the battle for Turda? I could not get this from this topic. Maybe it is mentioned, and maybe I missed it somehow.
And how many soldiers of the Red Army died there?

Well, I double-checked, and there is no mention in this topic about how many Romanian soldiers, or how many Soviet soldiers, died in the group of battles for Turda / Oarba de Mures.

Maybe my question is trivial... Especially considering that the topic started with the reminder: "...one of the finest defensive operations of..." whatever.

The battles in and around Turda and Oarba de Mures were two different events. There is about 40 km distance between the two locations.
The largest and longest battles took place in Turda area.

I didn't get this. Can you elaborate?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 14, 2006 02:15 pm

I didn't get this. Can you elaborate?

Gen. Dénes

I asked two simple questions (Romanian and Soviet casualties, in number of soldiers) and because there is still no answer posted to it, it makes me feel that this is one of the neglected parts of this story - at least in this topic, up to now.

trivial 1. Relatively insignificant: UNIMPORTANT. 2. Commonplace: ordinary. (Riverside Websters's II New College Dictionary, 1995; page 1181)

Regarding my quoting of the "one of the best defensive operations of the Royal Hungarian Honvédség":
If the text would be "one of the best defensive operations of the Axis", then yes, I would write an answer. But as "one of the best defensive operations of the Royal Hungarian Honvédség", I have nothing to comment, add or argue about it.

This post has been edited by Florin on April 14, 2006 05:39 pm

I learn from here that 2 armies were facing other 2 armies.

Then:

.
(I highlighted tenfold, which was not in bold letters in the original quote.)

How is that? "Tenfold" means "ten times". And I repeat: I see 2 armies facing other 2 armies. Usually, a German army as an operational group was bigger and stronger than a Soviet army.
It is my turn to write: I do not understand this. Please detail it.

This post has been edited by Florin on April 14, 2006 06:12 pm

First of all, obviously not all units of the above quoted two+two armies took part in the described battle. Also, at that time, the Axis armies were much weaker than in theory, that's why the Allies' numerical superiority, which was often tenfolds in manpower and heavy armament.

As for the Allies' overall losses, I didn't reply, because momentarily I don't have the numbers. Perhaps when the long-awaited Hungarian book on the Transylvanian battle arena finally arrives, I can tell you more.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 14, 2006 06:39 pm

So, are you saying that the Soviet-Romanian troops had a tenfold numerical superiority at the battle of Turda?

As a personal opinion, I think from his answer does not result this.
Obviously as total manpower and firepower, the Romanians and their new allies, the Soviets, did not have ten times more strength than their Hungarian and German opponents in the battlefield area discussed under this topic.
If locally the Romanians or the Soviets were able to focus forces ten times bigger than their entrenched adversary, this says something about the organizational skills and combat value of the Romanian and Soviet commanders.


This post has been edited by Florin on April 14, 2006 07:37 pm

What I've wanted to say, based on the sources I've read, is that locally the Allied attackers often had tenfold numerical superiority than the Axis defenders.
If you have data that gives the manpower strength otherwise, post it here.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 14, 2006 08:33 pm

I could not answer earlier, because I had an exam/test this Saturday - April 22.

Wasn't this the point in any offensive, since the beginning of history? To focus maximum strength where your want to break your enemy? I agree, when it is happening to have more in numbers (but not that much more), it is easier to build a local overwhelming force.
With skills and intelligence, that local superiority can be achieved even against an enemy bigger in numbers - examples are countless.

I can give you an example where on a whole front the ratio was 1 to 10 at a given moment. At the end of August 1944, after the Germans withdrew from Paris, the great plains of northern France were ideal for tank-against-tank battles, and that was the only way to halt the Allies. But in that moment the ratio in tanks between Western Allies versus Germany, in France, was 10 to 1, so only the shortage of gasoline stopped the Allies at the border of Germany.
Unfortunately for the Romanian Army, it never enjoyed such superiority in numbers anywhere it faced the German+Hungarian enemy, even with the Soviet help. Hitler never neglected that part of the frontlines. In Autumn 1944, the Hungarian Army received Tiger tanks - but not more than 25 pieces, at very best, to be fair. Or remember "Spring Awakening", in a moment when Berlin and Eastern Germany were in much need for all that force wasted in Hungary.

Hehe !
I found a veteran from the battle of Turda!
My uncle....
I never knew he was a war veteran.
And I took "a few " interw. to veterans....
Hopefuly soon a story about his part in the battle.
Till now all he told me was "I almost took part in the German side".

We're still waiting....

Seriously, get off your butt, ask your uncle some detailed questions (if you haven't already), and post the info...

I think this thread should be revived...
I re-read the whole thread, and there was actually some serious information gathering, at least from the Axis side. We need to complete the picture with info from the Soviet-Romanian side. This thread was a good start, let's continue it...

We should be focusing more on this type of stuff. Honestly, would you rather read another extremist Iran/Irak/US post, regardless of which "side" it takes?

For the battle of Torda, can someone confirm me this Romanian order of battle:
4th Romanian army
- 6th Territorial Corps (18 Mountain-Training Division, 7th Infantry-Training Division)
- Motorized Corps (8th Cavalry-motorized Division, 1st Cavalry Division, 9th Infantry Division, "Niculescu" Armored Detachment)
- 6th Army Corps (6 Infantry-Training Division, 11 Infantry-Training Division, 21 Infantry-Training Division)

Thank you

Today a remembrance was held at Turda (Torda), in memory of the 2,500 Hungarian soldiers who fell in the famous battle in that area, in September/October 1944.
http://www.dunatv.hu/otthon/tordai_csata.html (in Hungarian).

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 12, 2009 07:12 pm