soviet ultimatum to Romania

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandernagore wrote :

[quote]Oh, where not some of those soldiers Jewish too ? No communist Romanians either ? That clear cut assassine sentence really bothers me.
[/quote]

I can practically say that there was no Romanian ethnic communists in Bessarabia during that period, considering the general fear of Soviet Russia, and the fight against bolshevik Hungary in 1919 etc. Communists and their sympathisants were recruted by the Internationale from the local un-assimilated minorities, the most important being the Jews. The Jews acquired by Romania after 1918 were not like the Jews of the ancient kingdom (Regat) ; they did not spoke any Romanian, and where and in most cases were not interested by Romania. Transylvanian Jews were speaking fluent Magyar, and thus more loyal to Hungary (the situation will slowly change, with the arrival of the nationalist Horthy in power). Bessarabian Jews were the product of imperial Russia ; they were colonized in Bessarabia during the 19th century in order to dilute the local Romanian ethnics. Those Jews fall immediately "in love" after WWI with the new Soviet autorities which now deeply represented Jewish interests of equality between minorities.
As for the "terrorist Jews", I will now cite Winston Churchill :

[...]There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and an the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution: by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses.

The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.[...]
Source : Churchill, Winston, Zionism versus Bolshevism, Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, page 5.

During WWII, Jews (appart from an insignificant minority of volunteers) did not participate as troop in the Romanian Army. But, the "assimilated Jews" from the old kingdom (Regat) financed the Romanian budget at the orders of marshal Antonescu with billions of lei (Leu = national Romanian currency).

[quote]The accentuation of the religion seems always reserved to the Jewish religion. A bit suspicious I think.
[/quote]

It's hard to talk of "Jewish race" today, considering that today's Jews are nearly no more semitic... In fact, some 90% of the actual Jews may be of Kazar (turco-mongolic population from the Northern Caucasus and the Volga region, converted to judaism during the "Dark Age" - centuries 8-9 AD) origin ; askenades(?).

Regards,

Getu'

[mabadesc]

That's quite surprising. I had no idea Churchill held such radical opinions.

The newspaper excerpt you cite is from 1920. I would be curious to learn whether he changed his views by the time WWII rolled around or whether he still had the same views.
Do you have any similar quotes by him, but from the 1940's?

[Chandernagore]

So what's your conclusion Geto ? Did they act like they did because they were ...

1. Communist
2. Atheistic Jewish Bessarabians
3. Evil Jews born only to conspire against the national aspirations of Greater Upper Uber Romania ?

[mabadesc]

Chander, you're being unfair in your third "multiple choice" theory:

[quote]3. Evil Jews born only to conspire against the national aspirations of Greater Upper Uber Romania ?
[/quote]

Let's leave aside for a moment the alleged involvement of jewish communists in Bessarabia.
You're taking a low shot (below the belt, so to speak) at Romania. In 1940, without any conflict, Romania was forced to give up app. 35-40% of its historical territory. Within a few months, it lost 4 regions: N. Transylvania, Dobrudja, N. Bukovina, and Bessarabia. Romania entered WWII in order to escape virtual extinction (see Poland). They chose the side (Germany) which they thought offered them the best chance in recuperating these lost Romanian regions. Also, had they lined up with the Soviet Union, they would have faced the real danger of being forced into communism and into being incorporated by the Soviet Union (once again, total anihilation).

During the war, Romania did not exhibit any imperialistic intent of becoming, as you put it, "Greater Upper Uber Romania". To the contrary, they were even offered Transnistria in 1941 and refused to take over that area, claiming that all they wanted was the re-unification of the regions it lost before the war started.

I realize that you were half-joking, but you should not put Romania in the league of the "imperialistic nations" of WWII, such as Germany or the Soviet Union. :nope:

Anyway, sorry for the brief deviation from the subject at hand. Now, let's get back to the alleged terrorist involvement of jewish-romanian communists in Bessarabia.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]You're taking a low shot (below the belt, so to speak) at Romania. [/quote]

Nah. The cheap shot was at good old rotten nationalism :wink:

[quote]In 1940, without any conflict, Romania was forced to give up app. 35-40% of its historical territory. Within a few months, it lost 4 regions: N. Transylvania, Dobrudja, N. Bukovina, and Bessarabia... They chose the side (Germany) which they thought offered them the best chance in recuperating these lost Romanian regions. [/quote]

Wasn't that the same reason Hungary choosed to side with Germany ? What percentage of it's historical territory did a country like Hungary loose comparatively to Romania ? I fear that the situation of Romania is far from unique in that regard. I admit however that in 1940 the pill must have been damn hard to swallow. Naturally it is also true that the greater your territorial claims the more problems and clashes you're likely to develop. Romania seems to have had it's share from the start of the century.

[quote]Also, had they lined up with the Soviet Union, they would have faced the real danger of being forced into communism and into being incorporated by the Soviet Union (once again, total anihilation).[/quote]

You must mean assimilation or occupation, not annihilation.

[quote]I realize that you were half-joking, but you should not put Romania in the league of the "imperialistic nations" of WWII, such as Germany or the Soviet Unit.[/quote]

I agree it must be put in the same category as Finland/Hungary. It would have been much better however not to go as far as Stalingrad in an attempt to recover the lost territories. It's never wise to kick the bear in the bottom of his cave.

Being non Romanian puts me in minority here and , I fear, sometimes makes me appear anti-Romanian simply because my observator position makes me see things in a whole different light.

[quote]Anyway, sorry for the brief deviation from the subject at hand. Now, let's get back to the alleged terrorist involvement of jewish-romanian communists in Bessarabia.[/quote]

Yes. Nobody answered yet. Why where the Jews from Bessarabia not happy under Romanian rule ? There must have been some real problem for them to prefer the Russians who, let's recall, managed quite a lot of pogroms against the Jews along the years.

[dragos]

[quote]Wasn't that the same reason Hungary choosed to side with Germany ? What percentage of it's historical territory did a country like Hungary loose comparatively to Romania ? I fear that the situation of Romania is far from unique in that regard.[/quote]

No, it wasn't the same reason. Hungary's act was a violation of the treaty of Trianon, which concluded the First World War for Romania. Abandoned by the signatories of the peace treaty, it was the only thing that Romania could do in order to reinstate its souvereignity.

[quote]It would have been much better however not to go as far as Stalingrad in an attempt to recover the lost territories. It's never wise to kick the bear in the bottom of his cave.[/quote]

Antonescu's intention was not to kick the bear, but to put it at rest once and for all.

[quote]Nobody answered yet. Why where the Jews from Bessarabia not happy under Romanian rule ?[/quote]

My answer was already "sketched" by Geto-Dacul. Given the background of their settlement and the separation that exited between communities (very strict at that time), the Soviet bolsheviks and the Communist Party of Romania targeted the Russian and Jews comunities in Bessarabia for their propaganda. Also we should consider the big number of Jews in high-ranking positions in the communist party, as leaders of opinion and factors of influence.

Of course, I don't believe 100% the reports of that time, I am sure some of them were exagerated, if not faked, but the fact that they actioned for usurpation of Romanian administration is a reality.

[dragos]

[quote]Trianon oh well...sure.. a treaty imposed at gunpoint, just like the stealing of Bessarabia by the Soviets. I wonder what value it could have had in the eyes of the Hungarians :roll: [/quote]

It is a serious mistake to compare Trianon with the Soviet ultimatum. For how many times must I say that Transylvania was legitimate Romanian territory? Even if it wasn't the people congregation of Alba Iulia, asking for union with Romania, this is the reason for which Romania has entered the First World War. Not to speak of the fact that Romanians were majority in Transilvania in 1919, while Russians were not in Bessarabia in 1940.

[quote]Didn't Antonescu read Tolstoi ?[/quote]

I don't know. But I know Stalingrad was one step further than Borodino.

[quote]So, let's say I changed my mind and I'm more or less convinced that the Romanian Bessarabians from Jewish religion (or was it atheistic ?) where acting as a 5th column for the Bolsheviks. Sure would like to know why they liked communists that much.[/quote]

I don't know more the moment. But in you statement, why do you label the Jews the 5th column for the Bolsheviks, when they were the Bolsheviks?

[mabadesc]

C'mon, guys. The Transylvania/Vienna Diktat (or Arbitration) is off-topic for this thread.

For once we were having a focused, productive debate - let's try to stick to it, please.

The discussion is centered around Bessarabia, its Jewish population, the origin of its Jewish-Romanian population, and their attraction to the Communist party, which supposedly led them to undertake destabilizing terrorist acts.

I do have a few questions which arose in the course of this thread, and which may help us get to the bottom of this issue.

1. Moldova, and implicitly Bessarabia, was the Romanian province (region) with the highest Jewish concentration in the entire country. Does anyone know why? Why the affinity for that particular region?

2. Getu made an interesting point in differentiating between the Jewish population with Romanian origins prior to 1918 as opposed to newly arrived Jewish-Romanians post-1918. He states that the latter group was not nearly as well assimilated in Romanian society, that they did not speak Romanian, etc... My question is, how did this group immigrate to Romania and where did they emmigrate from? Furthermore, why their desire to immigrate to Romania, and Bessarabia in particular?

3. Was this process of migration coordinated by the International or Soviet Communist party, or was it spontaneous?

4. Did the Soviet Union have its "eyes", so to speak, set on Bessarabia ever since 1918 or was it a sentiment that developed later on, during the late 1930's?

5. Getu stated a theory: "It's hard to talk of "Jewish race" today, considering that today's Jews are nearly no more semitic... In fact, some 90% of the actual Jews may be of Kazar (turco-mongolic population from the Northern Caucasus and the Volga region, converted to judaism during the "Dark Age" - centuries 8-9 AD) origin ; askenades(?). "
This may be of interest in our search of the truth, but I haven't heard about this theory before. Getu, would you please expand on your statement a bit further?

6. Chander stated about the Bessarabian Jewish-Romanian population: "

Sure would like to know why they liked communists that much."
I would also like to know, as this may be one of the key questions to the debate. Does anyone have some statistics showing the total number of Communists in 1930's Romania as well as the percentage of Jewish-Romanians within this group? Perhaps from a census, or a poll taken during those years?

Let's keep this topic focused and ongoing. Maybe we can actually reach an objective conclusion.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

It seems that the \"nationalistic\" point of view is the only one you see...  the only side you see is the dark one.

Perhaps you should present us the other one.

QUOTE

Let's cite an official census of Transylvania in 1841: 260,170 Magyars, 260,000 szeklers, 250,000 saxons, 1,287,340 walachians (Romanians). Thiat sounds different than the majority in some quarters of your capital

Not at all, same scale

Lets' see further. Based on the same (or better) morale high ground, today :

Germany should immediately declare war on Belgium to unify the western districts where there is a crushing majority of Germans. By entering war it completely justifies the unification of the country.

Right ?


Sorry, Mabadesc, you're right. Let's get back to Bessarabia.

[dragos]

Please post this in the new Viena Diktat topic.

[Victor]

QUOTE

1. Moldova, and implicitly Bessarabia, was the Romanian province (region) with the highest Jewish concentration in the entire country. Does anyone know why? Why the affinity for that particular region?

The majority of the Jewish population there came from either Russia or Poland. Maybe they felt more at home in Moldavia than in Wallachia.

QUOTE

2. Getu made an interesting point in differentiating between the Jewish population with Romanian origins prior to 1918 as opposed to newly arrived Jewish-Romanians post-1918. He states that the latter group was not nearly as well assimilated in Romanian society, that they did not speak Romanian, etc... My question is, how did this group immigrate to Romania and where did they emmigrate from? Furthermore, why their desire to immigrate to Romania, and Bessarabia in particular?

In 1918-19 there were many Jewish refugees from Volnya and Podolya, who were allowed to stay for a while, until things settled down, but eventually they remained, mostly illegally. From 1922 on, many Russian-Jewish political refugees were allowed to stay in Romania.

QUOTE

3. Was this process of migration coordinated by the International or Soviet Communist party, or was it spontaneous?

Who knows? I believe many fled to Romania, because the Jewish community here was numerous and strong and the country was safer for them than Russia.

QUOTE

4. Did the Soviet Union have its \"eyes\", so to speak, set on Bessarabia ever since 1918 or was it a sentiment that developed later on, during the late 1930's?

1918, ofcourse. They never recognized the union. There was even a ultimatum in 1918 and a pathetic invasion attempt, but the fighting in the Ukraine with the Whites and the war with Poland did not leave the Bolsheviks too many resources. In the 20s they created the Moldavian SSR on the eastern bank of the Dniester.

QUOTE

I would also like to know, as this may be one of the key questions to the debate. Does anyone have some statistics showing the total number of Communists in 1930's Romania as well as the percentage of Jewish-Romanians within this group? Perhaps from a census, or a poll taken during those years?

In 1933 PCR (the Romanian Communist Party) had 1,665 members: 440 Hungarians, 375 Romanians, 300 Jews, 140 Bulgarians, 100 Russians, 70 Ukrainians, 70 "Moldavians", 170 others.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

In 1933 PCR (the Romanian Communist Party) had 1,665 members: 440 Hungarians, 375 Romanians, 300 Jews, 140 Bulgarians, 100 Russians, 70 Ukrainians, 70 \"Moldavians\", 170 others.

Interesting numbers. First they are very low. Second the Jews come only in third position behind Hungarians and Romanians.

Surely those tons of reports cannot result from the actions of a Golden Horde consisting of a huge number of 300 communist Jews ?

There is still some ingredient missing in the soup.

[Alexandru H.]

Well, in the 20s the Communists were more important than the Socialists and had many more members (a thing romanian historians tend to forget). Stalin's decisions concerning the Comintern destroyed any chance for a powerful communist party.

Second, that list means, in the eternal nationalistic spirit, that the Communists didn't represent the romanian people, thus is was ineherently wrong. Unfortunately, not all parties are build from an ethnic foundation (like the Legion) :roll:

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

[quote]In 1933 PCR (the Romanian Communist Party) had 1,665 members: 440 Hungarians, 375 Romanians, 300 Jews, 140 Bulgarians, 100 Russians, 70 Ukrainians, 70 "Moldavians", 170 others.[/quote]

I'd be curious to see the source of those statistics... Anyway, even in the Hungarians, most of them were Jewish Hungarians, but only recognizing themselves as Hungarians. I also heard at many occasions and in many references people saying that "the communist party had no more than 800 members"... Or that most of them were double agents, infiltrated by the SSI to better survey bolshevik activity.

...

It is also interesting to see that in the top-leading post-1945 communists, Jews were occupying special functions :

1. Ana Pauker, alias Anna Rabinson - Minister of Foreign Affairs and number one agent of Moscow in Bucharest.

2. Ilka Wassermann, The actual Director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

3. Josef Kishinevski, alias Jakob Broitman, Vice President of the Council of Ministers and member of the Central Committee of the Romanian Communist Party.

4. Teohari Georgescu, alias Burah Tescovich , Minister ofthe Interior.

5. Avram Bunaciu, alias, Abraham Gutman - Secretary General of the National Assembly. The actual leader of the Assembly.

6. Lothar Radaceanu, alias Lothar Wuertzel, Minister at Large.

7. Miron Constantinescu, alias Mehr Kohn, born in Galati, Minister of Mining and member of the Central Committee of the Romanian Communist Party.

8. Moises Haupt, General, Military Commander of Bucharest.

9. Laurian Zamfir, alias Laurian Rechler, General, Chief of Security, born in Braila.

10. Heinz Gutman, Chief of the Civil Secret Service.

11. William Suder, alias Wilman Suder, Chief of Counter Espionage.

12. Colonel Roman, alias Walter Roman - Father of the Prime Minister Petru Roman, Chief of the Department of Edu-cation, Culture and Propaganda of the Army (Walter Roman's father was Rabbi Neulander, an old communist).

13. Alexander Moghioros, Minister of Nationalities. A Jew from Hungary.

14. Alexandru Badan, alias Alexander Braunstein. Chief of the Commission to Controll the Foreigners.

15. Maior Levin, a Jew and former officer of the Russian Red Army, Chief Censor of the Press.

16. Colonel Holban, alias Moscovich, Chief of Security in Bucharest.

17. George Silviu, alias Gersch Gollinger, Secretary General of the Ministry of Interior.

18. Erwin Voiculescu, alias Erwin Weinberg, Chief of the Passport Department in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

19. Gheorghe Apostol, alias Gerschwin, President of the Workers' Syndicate.

20. Stupineanu, alias Stappnau, Chief of Economic Espio-nage.

21. Emmerick Stoffel, A Jew from Hungary, Romanian Ambassador in Switzerland.

22. Harry Fainaru, alias Hersch Feiner, Chief Councilor in the Romanian Embassy in the United States.

23. Ida Szillagy - A Jewess, friend of Ana Pauker (the actual head of the Romanian Embassy in London).

24. N. Lazarescu, alias Burah Lazarovich - In charge of Foreign Relations of Romania in Paris.

25. Simon Oieru, alias Schaeffer, Under Secretary of State.

26. Aurel Baranga, alias Ariel Leibovich, General Inspector in the Department of Arts.

27. Liuba Kishinevki, alias Liuba Broitman, Head of the Anti-Fascist Women's Association of Romania.

28. Lew Zeiger - A Jew. Director General of the Ministry of Economy.

29. Doctor Zeider, Legal advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

30. Marcel Breslau, alias Mark Breslau, General Director of the Department of Arts.

31. Silviu Brucan, alias Bruekker, Chief editor of the newspaper "Scanteia", (the official publication of the Communist Party). He was in charge of the propaganda campaign to spread disinformation to the people in regard to the Communist leadership. At the same time, he was in charge of fabricating the anti-Semitic campaign in Romania.

32. Samoila, alias Samuel Rubenstein, The Governing Director of the newspaper "Scanteia".

33. Horia Liman, alias Lehman, Assistent editor of the newspaper "Scanteia".

34. Enginer Schnapp , a Jew. Governing Director of the newspaper "Romania Libera" (Free Romania).

35. Jehan Mihai, alias Jakob Michael, Chief of the FilmIndustry in Romania.

36. Alexandru Graur, alias Alter Brauer, General Director of Romanian Broadcasting System.

37. Mihai Roller, a Jew who was born in Soviet Union. President of the Romanian Academy and the author of the falsi-fied Romanian history.

38. Professor Weigel, The tyrant of the University of Bucharest, who was in charge of the elimination of the anti-communist students from the universities.

39. Professor Levin Bercovich , another tyrant of the University of Bucharest, who controlled the teaching staff and who came from Russia.

40. Silviu Iosifescu, alias Samson Josifovich, The Jew that censored Eminescu, Alexandri and Vlahuta and eliminated parts of their literary work which was not in harmony with the Com-munists.

41. Joan Winter, alias Jakob Winter, The second Marxist literary critic of Romania.

42. Alexander Sencovich, Misha Levin and Sam Asriel (alias Serban) Secretaries of the General Association of Workers.

This is only a partial list of the communist Jews in key positions in the Romanian Government.

[Geto-Dacul]

Alexandru H. wrote :

[quote]Unfortunately, not all parties are build from an ethnic foundation (like the Legion)[/quote]

At least, to be representative of a people's interests, it must have the base : be made of a majority of local ethnics, otherwise it represents foreign interests. At that time, the communists were representing Moscow's expansionist policy.