Support for August, 1944?

The ultimate argument should be the situation in Romania as it presents itself nowadays. This is why I think that 23 August 1944 was one of the unfortunate days in Romanian History. Maybe it was the time we should have shown what we're made of instead of submitting to the barbarians once again.

What would had most likely happened, had we continued fighting against Soviet Union:



Revista de istorie militara, 5-6/1997, p22

Have you been to Hungary lately? Try and compare Bucharest and Budapest - it is painful. Try and compare the Romanian Nationalism (spirit) and the Hungarian one. It is even more painful

In mid-1980s, I met several veteran airmen at Predeal mountain retreat, where they converged for an anniversary. Anyhow, one of them, a former Hs 129 ground assault pilot officer - squadron commander and one of the best of his unit - participated in an 'educational program' at the local high school. Following his short speach, he answered questions from the audience. Someone asked him what was the most memorable & tragic moment of his pilot's career. He said the moment when he had to break alliance with his German comrades and turn the arms against them. The audience froze. Remember, it happened under Communism, when World War 2 officially started on August 23, 1944, with the revolution and popular insurgency under the leadership of the Communist forces...

Anyhow, that very moment, the sincerity of the veteran officer, who fought on both fronts and had many extraordinary events to revive (I interviewed him later on), but who choose to publicly state his disapproval of the about-face of August 23, 1944, to me is more relevant than all polished and sanitized memoirs published post-war.

Sure, for some military that came most often in contact with German echelons at the front, switching sides was problematic at a second thought. For others, like the troops stationed in country (1st Army, military schools etc), the about-face wasn't so traumatic.

Sad but inevitable... I think that there were the tragic events of the soldiers that fought on the Russian front versus the possible tragedy of the entire country ( IMHO the Russians would have annexed the whole Romania not only Besserabia)... I think that the annexation of Romania by the Soviets (we do not talk about the damages - that for example Hungary took) would have been much worst than fighting against the Germans (try to imagin a greater Republic of Moldova today )

Denes,who was that pilot?
Is he still alive?

The mentioned pilot was Lt. av. Lazar Munteanu. I interviewed him at his residence in Cluj.
Unfortunately, as the tense of my previous sentence denotes, he is not with us any more. He was a modest but outstanding man, indeed. I consider myself very lucky to meet him.

BTW, C-2, I would like to ask you to show a photo of a group of ARR airmen to C-dor (r.) Di Cesare for identification. How can I send you the scan?

sure!

Please use Private Messaging for communication.

QUOTE

QUOTE As to Romania not owing anything to Germany, however, there was the Tripartite Pact, which Romania had joined. Germany offered guarantees to preserve the Romanian status quo in September 1940. It was clearly in August 1944 that it was in no position to fulfill its promises. Since Romanian interests could not be satisfied by Hitler and Germany anymore, it was normal IMO to seek another way to try to solve the difficult situation. I am curious, however, to see a summary of the Tripartite Pact and what were the obligations of the signing parties.

The text of the Tripartite pact is given below. As you will notice, the gist is that the signatories were committed to establishing a "new order" in Europe and Asia, and that they were to cooperate and assist each other, up to military means, in case of war.

However, you are right in wanting to see the exact wording. A strictly litteral reading, in fact, will point out that the signatories were committed to assist each other militarily _if attacked_. One could perfectly well argue that, since Germany and Romania had attacked the Soviet Union, they were not bound by the pact to assist each other.
That detail had escaped me until now. Again, it's something of a technicality, but it's worth remembering it, probably.
Thank you and regards.


Text of the Tripartite Pact (note that Romania is not mentioned, but it joined it later on):

The governments of Germany, Italy and Japan, considering it as a condition precedent of any lasting peace that all nations of the world be given each its own proper place, have decided to stand by and co-operate with one another in regard to their efforts in greater East Asia and regions of Europe respectively wherein it is their prime purpose to establish and maintain a new order of things calculated to promote the mutual prosperity and welfare of the peoples concerned.
Furthermore, it is the desire of the three governments to extend co-operation to such nations in other spheres of the world as may be inclined to put forth endeavours along lines similar to their own, in order that their ultimate aspirations for world peace may thus be realized.
Accordingly, the governments of Germany, Italy and Japan have agreed as follows:
ARTICLE ONE
Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in establishment of a new order in Europe.
ARTICLE TWO
Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in greater East Asia.
ARTICLE THREE
Germany, Italy and Japan agree to co-operate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.
ARTICLE FOUR
With the view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, members which are to be appointed by the respective governments of Germany, Italy and Japan will meet without delay.
ARTICLE FIVE
Germany, Italy and Japan affirm that the aforesaid terms do not in any way affect the political status which exists at present as between each of the three contracting powers and Soviet Russia.
ARTICLE SIX
The present pact shall come into effect immediately upon signature and shall remain in force 10 years from the date of its coming into force. At the proper time before expiration of said term, the high contracting parties shall at the request of any of them enter into negotiations for its renewal.
In faith whereof, the undersigned duly authorized by their respective governments have signed this pact and have affixed hereto their signatures.

QUOTE

What would had most likely happened, had we continued fighting against Soviet Union: Revista de istorie militara, 5-6/1997, p22

care to attempt a translation, even summarized?
Thank you in advance if you have time for that.

QUOTE

care to attempt a translation, even summarized?   Thank you in advance if you have time for that.

"Without (the action of) 23 August, Romania would have been turned into a devastating theatre of military operations. The Romanian Army, on the Germans' side, used as a rearguard for the Wehrmacht troops, would have been destroyed in hopeless fights on the European battlefields, like the Hungarian Army, whose leaders "were lacking the political wisdom of Bucharest", and the policy of the Romanian state would have been totally subdued to the authority of military ocupation. By unconditional surrender, the sovereignity of the Romanian state would have been totally and irevocably annuled, the Romanian state surrendering all his atributes of national independence. "Soviet military and ocupation government only (...) Romania being unable to express her own will", that was the perspective awaiting us, as revealed by documents of US State Department in January 1944. In this perspective, the future development of Romanian state and people would have been prevented by a Soviet military ocupation of an unprecedented harshness. Without army, without government, Romania would have been unable to defend her position at the Peace Conference, her territorial status being established by the arbitrary decision of others."

According to an article appearing in today's on-line edition of Ziarul de Iasi 23 August 1944 will be celebrated this year on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the event. Is there anyone else who can confirm this? I did not find this information quoted by any other source.

QUOTE

Vom defila din nou pe 23 august Ziua de 23 august va fi din nou sarbatorita in Romania, au anuntat autoritatile pesediste, descendente din fostul partid comunist. La festivitati va fi invitat si regele Mihai, cel care a condus lovitura de stat din 1944. Autoritatile par incintate ca au mai gasit o gaselnita electorala cu bere si mici, insa ce vor spune romanii despre sarbatoarea care le aduce aminte de umilintele indurate sub regimul lui Nicolae Ceausescu? PSD a luat o decizie care va face valuri in societate si va naste discutii aprinse in rindul istoricilor. Autoritatile statului intentioneaza sa organizeze ample manifestari in Bucuresti si in alte orase ale tarii pentru sarbatorirea zilei de 23 august, cind se vor implini 60 de ani de la evenimentele din vara lui 1944, au declarat, ieri, surse oficiale. Potrivit informatiilor, manifestarile sint in curs de pregatire, Presedintia, Guvernul si MApN urmind sa stabileasca programul acestora si contributia fiecarei institutii implicate. Principalele ceremonii vor avea loc in Bucuresti, la acestea urmind sa participe presedintele Ion Iliescu si alti oficiali. De asemenea, va fi invitat si Regele Mihai, care a jucat un rol important la 23 august 1944, au precizat aceleasi surse. Autoritatile romane vor sa inscrie aceste manifestari in seria ceremoniilor care au avut loc in acest an in toata Europa, cum au fost cele organizate de Franta si Marea Britanie in Normandia, la 6 iunie, cind s-au implinit 60 de ani de la debarcarea Aliatilor.   ...

Originally published by Ziarul de Iasi on 15 July 2004.

Try http://www.ziua.net. There was a whole page in today's paper on the subject, including interviews with Neagu Djuvara and Adrian Cioroianu. It should also be in the electronic version.

Just another "circus" arranged by the government. At the beginning of the month they had another one at Putna at the 500th anniversary of Stephen the Great's death. The general elections areclosing in. :roll: