Corporal punishment

[dragos]

Shameful practices in the Romanian Army:

On 30 June 1941, from the order of the commanding officer of 1/2 Vanatori Regiment, corporal punishments were sentenced upon the ranks of 11th Company, which failed to resist in the Bogdanesti bridgehead.

On 14 August 1941, by the general directive 113 of war minister, General Iosif Iacobici, the corporal punishment is officially instituted, for dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty. The sentence was the flogging up to 25 hits, in the attendance of medical personnel and all the equal and higher ranks in the unit.

[Dr_V]

Well, it is nasty, but for the times and situation then it wasn't such a big deal. Just try comparing this corporal punishment with what the German or Russian soldiers faced: a quick Court Martial trial (sometimes not even that) and a death penalty, sometimes for insignificant reasons. An offence like "cowerdness in front of the enemy" or "mistakes leading to the defeat" was a direct ticket towards the fiering squad in other armys.

Even if it was shamefull (from our point of view, as modern citisens in a relatively peacefull and normal world; in the 40s the views were much different), if it was working I guess it wasn't such a bad idea after all. About all armys of the time had corporal punishment well established, thaugh for "dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty" in many cases the conseqences were far more severe.

[dragos]

It seems we are condemned to compare ourselves either with the Germans or the Soviets. Why not with the French? Or the British? Of course, executing the soldiers for retreating when the enemy attacked is absurd and worthy of a totalitarian regime as the Nazi or Soviet. Then why should we justify such a punitive measure, encountered most often in medieval age? :nope:

[Dénes]

I've heard from a Luftwaffe pilot that some Rumanian Air Force officers did occasionally hit their adjoutants with the riding stick they carried around most of the time (such corporal punishment was not used in the Luftwaffe - according to that veteran German pilot officer). This was confirmed to me by an ARR officer pilot too.
One such officer notorious for roughing up his subordinates reportedly was Cpt. av. Lucian Toma.

[Korne]

The corporal punishment is mentioned by von Manstein in his book "Lost victories" as one of the "old practices" (used in the Romanian Army), which didn't improve the quality of the troops. He also mentions the lack of skilled and well-trained NCOs as a necessary link between the low ranks and the commissioned officers.

In my opinion, the corporal punishment was the result of the big educational and cultural gap between the soldiers (mainly peasants or lower-class citizens) and the COs (mainly university graduates). The absence of a solid middle-class in Romania reflected these circumstances. (And it still is a major drawback of the today's Romanian society, don't you agree?)

The corporal punishment is still practiced: I have a friend who is officer in the Navy - and he told me some of the recruits were so stupid or stubborn (or both) that he had to beat them to make them understand his orders or what is the meaning of the army discipline. I don't agree with his methods - but I wasn't in his place, so I cannot really judge him.

However, the difference between the current situation and what happened during WW2 is that the corporal punishment nowadays is "off the record" and it is not the result of official army regulations or orders.

[Dr_V]

Corporal punishment can be extremely usefull in an army, but only if propperly implemented. As I've read, in WW2 Romanian Army this method was not propperly used and was also abused of. There's a thin line between the effective and the abusive way of doing that.

As an example, if a soldier fled during the battle when his comrades stayed and fought, a few wips in a public display will only awake sentiments of shame (in the punished coward) and pride and comradery between the rest of the troops.
But if you let a violent officer to hit a man everytime he's anoyed or wants to feel important, than you get the opposite effect, the troops will feel they're treated without respect.

For such measures to be effectively used, the law should have stated that only the Court Martial can give such punishments, to avoid unpropper interpretations by the violent officers. And also the same law should have established penaltys for the officers disregarding it, so giving the troops the certainty that they received a fair treatment.

You know, those ideas weren't hached by me, I've based this post on the rules applied in the American Army during WW1 period, as I've read on a history site.

[C-2]

Not long ago I wrote about an army officer who was N.Ceausecsu's co,and use to kick him in the ass all the time :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: and to spank him :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[C-2]

A teacher of mine,who had his military service between the wars,told me that some of the recruts,generaly peasants ,were so stupid and ignorant ,that could not tell between left and right...
The co use to put in their left boot "paie"(I need a translation here...) and in the right boot fan.And instead of "left/right/left /right,he'd say:paie/fan/paie /fan....
Also some oficers were very hard on those guys and beeting was a way of life.
He told me about a case(he served in the artilery)that while practising cannon firing,one of the cannons was jammed,and wold'nt fire.A certain officer ,who was the most hated by the recruts due to his beatings,came to see what was wrong.One moment he looked into the barrel and suddenly the cannon fired.....
It was catalogeted as an accident,but my teacher,Oswald Stadler,said he wasn't sure///

[Korne]

[quote]Not long ago I wrote about an army officer who was N.Ceausecsu's co,and use to kick him in the ass all the time :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: and to spank him :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:[/quote]

Kinky, ain't it?
The CO used to kick/spank Ceausescu or the other way around?

[Korne]

[quote]He told me about a case(he served in the artilery)that while practising cannon firing,one of the cannons was jammed,and wold'nt fire.A certain officer ,who was the most hated by the recruts due to his beatings,came to see what was wrong.One moment he looked into the barrel and suddenly the cannon fired.....
It was catalogeted as an accident,but my teacher,Oswald Stadler,said he wasn't sure///[/quote]

This sounds like a Sven Hassel story

[Dr_V]

C-2: The translation is: "paie"= straws, "fan"= hay


If we're talking funny military storys about punishment in our army, I remember a patient my father treated some months ago. This patient was a sergeant employed in recruits training and he was a very short trmpered man. During a march, a recruit fell down from exhaustion and refused to stand up and continue marching. The sergeant was so enraged that he wanted to kick that soldier in the ass, but he slipped on the mud and fractured his ankle...

[Korne]

According to this article from Adevărul, the military arrest (solitary confinement) as a disciplinary measure will be abolished:

http://www.adevarulonline.ro/index.jsp?pag...rticle_id=80185 (in Romanian)

[Victor]

[quote]
On 14 August 1941, by the general directive 113 of war minister, General Iosif Iacobici, the corporal punishment is officially instituted, for dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty. The sentence was the flogging up to 25 hits, in the attendance of medical personnel and all the equal and higher ranks in the unit.[/quote]

That is funny since he was the one who had forbidden this kind of punishments by Ordnance No. 95/21 July 1941 and even submitted penal complaints against several officers that applied such punishment.

[dragos]

[quote]That is funny since he was the one who had forbidden this kind of punishments by Ordnance No. 95/21 July 1941 and even submitted penal complaints against several officers that applied such punishment.[/quote]

That's right. The minister, in his communiqué, gave the example of a captain which hit a soldier so hard, that he broke the lower jaw of the latter. The soldier required surgery :!:

[C-2]

Korne,The co of ceausescu still lives in Iasi...
At "those "years he was afraid he'll be arested for kicking the" leader".
He was on Tv not long ago ,with pictures.
Only that when ceausescu was cought stealing something,he saved him from jail.(I think he stole a ladies purce).
About Oswald Stadler,I can write a book about his stories he told me.
He was teaching 7 languges,had a degree in economics and the tipe of person you meet once in a life time.Belive me ,he wasn't telling bed time stories!
He was living in Chernowitz and was sent to hard labor in Siberia for serving in the Romanian army.There he was recruted to the Soviet army and after healingfrom hepatitis he was the only surviver of his batalion at Kiev.