Russia and the Independence War, split from Carol II fortifications

OK! Your point is that Russia could have taken all Romania in 1878. Militarily speaking, yes, but what would have been the consequences? Do you think that Habsburgs, Germany, Britain would have said (or done) nothing? Just 20 years after the Crimean War? Do you really suppose that Russia was in a league of her own? Not even in 1945... But it seems that in 1944/45 USSR found it easier to simply install puppets which would sign whatever needed - a thing not so easy to be done in 1870-s!

I was talking about facts and events that actually took place.
Of course politics and diplomacy played a huge role.
Radu

When you write "Russia could have done this and that, this is NOT an event that actually took place! Or is it? And no, I am not talking about the period of 1820-s, but about 1878! Because in 1940 everybody knows that only Germany prevented our invasion by the Red Army,

This is why debates are something very important that is missing from the Romanian curricula (spelling ?). Two highly educated people simply don't seem to be able to discuss an issue without resorting to personal attacks (unable to understand, deaf, hag etc) when they don't agree on something. It's Christmas. At least now one should try to be more tolerant.

But what does not make sense is why you are so obsessed with what happened in 1940 in a thread about 1877/1878. Tsarist Russia of 1878 was different from Stalin's USSR of 1940. What you are doing is akin to "discussing the Battle of the Bulge in a thread about the American war of Independence." It is not "smart", in fact it is the opposite if it.

As Victor said, here we have a chance to discuss something that is usually never discussed in Romania and you keep dynamiting it (two pages now). Stop! Please stop!

Radu

I've noticed this inability within the Romanian world of academia too. It's mostly because highly educated people also tend to develop very big egos and some of them tend to take things very personally when they are contradicted on an issue dear to them. This wouldn't be that bad but our Latin temper also means we are prone to "letting it all out" in an angry outburst. That burns the "communication bridges" and each side then retreats into its own cocoon (or forms "bisericute" with other people who agree completely) and is reluctant to communicate/cooperate.

The three counties in Southern Bessarabia (Cahul, Ismail and Bolgrad) were given through the Treaty of Paris of 1856 to the Principality of Moldova, not to the Ottoman Empire, unlike the Danube Delta which was directly annexed by the Porte (the initial talks proposed to give as well the Delta to Moldavia). The Danube Commission had authority only on the water canals in the Delta, not in the territory north of it.

The three counties were taken over by the Moldavian administration. When Moldavia united with Wallachia in 1859 to form the United Principalities and later Romania (1862), this territory was obviously part of the newly formed entity. Troops were raised in these three counties (mounted gendarmes squadrons) and took part in the 1877-78 war. It is thus wrong to consider that the three counties were not part of the territory of the Romanian state in 1878.

The idea that the Romanian Principalities and then Romania were/was part of the Ottoman Empire is debatable. Through the treaty of Adrianople/Edirne of 1829, the two principalities were basically put under a Russian-Ottoman condominium. The Porte was still the nominal sovereign power, but the new "constitution" was basically drafted by Russia with the help of the local nobility, the new government was setup by Russia and nothing could be changed without Russian consent. Furthermore, the Turkish bridgeheads (raia) at Turnu [Magurele], Giurgiu and Braila were to be transferred back to Wallachia.

During the Crimean War, the Russian-Ottoman condominium was briefly replaced by a similar Austrian-Ottoman condominium. The Treaty of Paris of 1856, however, placed the two principalities under the common protection of all European powers in order to ensure that none will exert more influence than the rest. It also recognized the administrative independence of the Principalities. The Ottoman Empire was still the sovereign power in name, but the situation of the Principalities was very different from that of Bulgaria or Dobruja at the time.

The Romanians grabbed the maximum they could from this situation and went on to create one state from the two principalities and then, having the benefit of a great prince in the person of Carol, to organize and modernize the country. Thus, although de jure Romania was still dependent from the Porte, the reality was very much different from what was 60-70 years before.

In April 1877, Romania and Russia signed a convention to facilitate the passing of Russian troops on Romanian territory. Article 2 of this convention contained Russia's obligation to maintain Romania's territorial integrity. This article was breached by the Treaty of San Stefano, through the annexation of the 3 Bessarabian counties, hence the indignation of prince Carol and his government, the concentration of the Army around Ploiesti and the military tension resolved by the Treaty of Berlin. It is not very important that Moldova did not take part in Congress of Paris in 1856 or that Romania, as successor state, did not take part in the Congress of Berlin in 1878 when the three counties were shifted back and forth. It was considered Romanian territory by the Romanian government. The Great Powers did what they usually did and tended to their own interests, although Romania got a relatively decent deal. The fact remained that Russia breached the convention with Romania and, although it did not have any European consequences, given the relative importance of the two parties, it left marks in the Romanian psyche. Later, Romania secretly joined the German-Austro-Hungarian defence alliance aimed mainly against Russia.

A long post unfortunately, but it is a complex subject, which should not be treated lightly.

MMM has raised some interesting points, unfortunately without going into many details. Maybe tomorrow I will have time to elaborate.

Translation from a russian book :

This post has been edited by Petre on February 21, 2015 10:15 am