Romanian Army's involvement

[Csaba Becze]

No. You are a Rumanian nationaslist, not me a Hungarian, and the main problem is, that you don't want to accept the historical facts instead of this tales.

Just an example: some Hungarian nationalist stated the Hungarian-Sumerian relationship. In my opinion, they had not any proofs, so this is also a tale.

You should learn a lot (and from objective sources, of course, not from story-books, presented as "Rumanian history")
If you don't have any objective sources, this is your problem, not mine (Slovakians have the same problem; and some EU helps for historical books were cancelled, after they made story-books from this money...)
The Rumanian propaganda trying to hammer in the Daco-Rumanian continuity in Western Europe also, and maybe some foreigners too lazy to search some objective sources and believe this, but the reality is very different.

[Geto-Dacul]

Mr. Csaba wrote :

QUOTE

You should learn a lot (and from objective sources, of course, not from story-books, presented as \"Rumanian history\")

Aha... So Hungarian books and libraries are the best for Rumanian history. Since when so much interest in our history? Well, I have only this to tell you : two can play that game! That's a good one!

QUOTE

If you don't have any objective sources, this is your problem, not mine (Slovakians have the same problem; and some EU helps for historical books were cancelled, after they made story-books from this money...)

Oh... So now I don't have any "objective" sources... But the Slovakians too are very poor in "objective" sources (according to you)... Who is next? Serbians too don't have objective sources? Croatians too?

QUOTE

The Rumanian propaganda trying to hammer in the Daco-Rumanian continuity in Western Europe also, and maybe some foreigners too lazy to search some objective sources and believe this,

I could say the same thing about the Hungarian irrendetist lobby in the Western World, and the huge founds allocated to the "Hungarian cause" (billions per year)...

QUOTE

but the reality is very different.

Sure, reality is very different from your point of vue and for your interests. :wink:

[Csaba Becze]

I didn't stated, that the Hungarian books and libraries are the best for Rumanian history. Don't quibbling my statements.
Actually, I am interested in not just the Hungarian and military history. I am interested in my neighbours' history, Europe's history, (World's history ), and a lot of other things also (means very different things - I hesitated between a historian and a vet work, so for example I know a lot of animal disease also )


Lol, yes, the Croatians a good example too. The Croatians and the Serbs are Slav nations, with same roots and they are close relatives. The only - but quite big - different is the religion between the Croats and Serbs: the Croats are catholics, and the Serbs are othodoxes. Actually, they had a lot of problems with each other, and they hate each other. The Croats had a theory about their origin (to differentiate them from Serbs) This theory stated, that their ancestors were not Slavs, but Iranian tribes. This is a tale also, without proofs, of course.
So, if your knowledge is not enough :wink: , don't state bad examples .

Hmm, I am interested in the Hungarian irredentist lobby's statements. I don't know any Hungarian irredentist lobby in a Western World.
Could you post some?
Actually, nowadays the French historians admit, that the Hungarian peace treaty was horrible and very unjust (this is your problem with the Hungarian "irredentists"?) Do you know, what does irredentist mean?

[johnny_bi]

Csavba said :

QUOTE

I didn't stated, that the Hungarian books and libraries are the best for Rumanian history.

If you're looking for good books try to read Imanuel Geiss - a well-known German historian... If you do not trust others try this guy - his a representant of the German historiens which is one of the most objective.... Try at least his book "World's history from pre-history times to 2000"....
This is a recommendation for Geto-dacul also... I think that you all could clear some aspects: irredentist, assimilation, minorities, etc, etc, at least from this zone...
But for Csaba... the history around the teritories habited by the Hungarians today... began before the arriving of the Maghiars and even the Huns.... this one is a decent observation... you should count this also... You could find some aspects of these problems in Geiss' book...
I give the name of this book because he is not involved in any propaganda... And I think that we should try to find out the things that we had in common (and we had a lot) but to objectively see what was the difference.

As for the geto-daci it is also a decent observation that, as long as the teritory occupied by the Romans was only Oltenia, a small part of Muntenia and the Southern Transilvania (until Napoca) the geto-dacii free from the north had no reason to retreat... why to retreat together with the Romans? as long as they were anyway free? ...
The problem was their fragmentation but the Germans could be a final good example of uniting the fragments...

[Dénes]

I've tried to find books by Imanuel Geiss - as recommended by Johnny Bi - translated in English, but found only one title: 'The Question of German Unification: 1806-1996'. Is this worth reading for someone interested in the contemporary history of Central and Eastern Europe?

While talking of noteworthy history books, I can recommend a one-volume book by Norman Davies, titled 'Europe. A History'.

Also, for our Rumanian contributors, I can recommend a recently published book by Lucian Boia: 'Istorie si mit in constiinta romaneasca' - particularly Chapter 5: Romanii si Ceilalti (The Rumanians and the Others)' - published by Humanitas, in 1997. In this books, Professor Boia dispels many myths and legends still persisting in Rumanian history books.

As for the ongoing dispute among Getu' and Csaba, I would personally suggest to try to stick to the military history of the XXth Century, we all are familiar with...

Dénes

[Geto-Dacul]

Dénes wrote :

QUOTE

Also, for our Rumanian contributors, I can recommend a recently published book by Lucian Boia: 'Istorie si mit in constiinta romaneasca' - particularly Chapter 5: Romanii si Ceilalti (The Rumanians and the Others)' - published by Humanitas, in 1997. In this books, Professor Boia dispels many myths and legends still persisting in Rumanian history books.

You'll be surprised by my answer... (or maybe not) I affiliate Lucian Boia with Sabin Gherman, and that kind of people have no credit in Romania. And "Humanitas" is a library connected with the foreign pro-Western Freemasonry, publishing litterature opposite to Romania's interests, and in a critical period of its history.

Boia dispels Romanian myths, but does not say anything about Hungarian ones. And BTW, myths and legends are based or are historical FACTS.

Best regards,

G-D

[Dénes]

QUOTE

I affiliate Lucian Boia with Sabin Gherman, and that kind of people have no credit in Romania.

Despite your apparent pre-conceivement regarding prof. Boia, I still suggest to try to find and read his mentioned book. I found it very interesting, containing a fresh approach to several crucial topics in Rumanian history.

QUOTE

Boia dispels Romanian myths, but does not say anything about Hungarian ones.

Of course, Boia's book is about Rumanian myths and legends, not about the Hungarian ones (which, certainly, also exist).

Dénes

[Geto-Dacul]

Csaba Becze wrote :

QUOTE

Don't quibbling my statements.

I was reading between the lines! :wink:

QUOTE

I hesitated between a historian and a vet work, so for example I know a lot of animal disease also  )

It is true that historians can manipulate facts according to their interests, or of the "Scientific" Community. That's not new... Veterans, or others non-historians by profession, can be oftenly more efficient! :wink:

QUOTE

The Croats had a theory about their origin (to differentiate them from Serbs) This theory stated, that their ancestors were not Slavs, but Iranian tribes. This is a tale also, without proofs, of course.   So, if your knowledge is not enough  , don't state bad examples.

Interesting theory, because the famous 'Slavic' tribes were mixed (or were) with Scytho-Sarmatians, and Indo-Iranian (European) people that inabited Ukraine and Russia and being of the same origin as the Geto-Dacians... Sarmatian is affiliated with the Romanian word "Sârmã", meaning in English "wire". It was an expression qualifiying the Sarmatian mounted warriors who were full of chain mail (a kind of wire), covering even the horses. So Sarmatian could mean the "wire-people", or the "wire-warriors"...

So the Croatian theory may not be unfounded! :wink: If it exists, that's maybe because something real has originated it. Alternative history is developping a lot those days...

QUOTE

Hmm, I am interested in the Hungarian irredentist lobby's statements. I don't know any Hungarian irredentist lobby in a Western World.

The Hungarian state spends yearly more than 2 billion $ on the "national cause" (see Hungary's foreign debt of over 30 billion $ / 10 million inhabitants). With this money, the Hungarian theories are flourishing in countries where there's a strong Hungarian minority in exile (as in USA, for example).

QUOTE

Actually, nowadays the French historians admit, that the Hungarian peace treaty was horrible and very unjust (this is your problem with the Hungarian \"irredentists\"?) Do you know, what does irredentist mean?

I'm not naive! I know what "irrendentist" means...
"a political principle or policy directed toward the incorporation of irredentas within the boundaries of their historically or ethnically related political unit"

And "irredenta" :
Etymology: Italian Italia irredenta, literally, unredeemed Italy, Italian-speaking territory not incorporated in Italy
Date: 1914
"a territory historically or ethnically related to one political unit but under the political control of another"

If some French historians think that those treaties were horrible, than they should be ashamed by not recognizing Romania's role in WWI, which facilitated greatly their own war.

Regards,

Getu'

[Geto-Dacul]

Dénes wrote :

QUOTE

Of course, Boia's book is about Rumanian myths and legends, not about the Hungarian ones (which, certainly, also exist).

Dispelling those myths, what Lucian Boia leaves instead of them? Do not forget that many of those myths are related with the Hungarians' arrival in Europe and entering in contact with the Rumanians.

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Dispelling those myths, what Lucian Boia leaves instead of them?

Implicitely, he uncovers a history devoid of many myths, therefore a history closer to pure Reality (a position no-one can actually achieve due to the emotional nature of the science of History, but one can nevertheless aim towards).

QUOTE

Do not forget that many of those myths are related with the Hungarians' arrival in Europe and entering in contact with the Rumanians.

He, he, Capt. Geto-Dacu', this is a minefield I am not willing to step on... :wink:

Dénes

[Geto-Dacul]

Dénes wrote :

QUOTE

Implicitely, he uncovers a history devoid of many myths, therefore a history closer to pure Reality (a position no-one can actually achieve due to the emotional nature of the science of History, but one can nevertheless aim towards).

As I said before, myths and legends cannot have appeared by magic. They are based on historical realities... Until the end of the 19th Century, no one was ever thinking that Troy existed, and we arrived at the conclusion that it was myth, or a legend... But looks like Schliemann just proved that it is not sufficient to deny myths...

[Geto-Dacul]

Huh... It is becoming off-topic...

[inahurry]

Johnny pointed clearly the difference between an honest attempt (which may be subject to error) in finding historical truth and pure propaganda. You simply don't "quote" a blatant mistake when everyone in Hungary knows well how the things went.

By the way, I often read about Romania participating in the hacking of Czechoslovakia's and Yugoslavia's territory. It never was the case. While, for instance, Poland did took a small piece of land from Czechoslovakia.

[inahurry]

Lucian Boia the historian. Sounds like Mihai Roller the historian or Silviu Brucan the democrat or Ion Iliescu the faithful. Too funny.

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Lucian Boia the historian. Sounds like Mihai Roller the historian or Silviu Brucan the democrat or Ion Iliescu the faithful. Too funny.

Dr. Lucian Boia is a History Professor, currently teaching at the Bucharest University. He is one of the few Rumanian historians who consequently publishes outside Rumania, particularly in France.

By comparing him with the mentioned proto-Communist political "dinosaurs", you're way out the line. Actually, you're comparing apples to oranges, to say the least...

Dénes

P.S. However, as Geto-Dacul wrote, this is already way off topic, so we should either create a new topic, or finish this discussion