Coin war

What is it?
Harvester dug in Belarus.

http://img33.imageshack.us/content_round.p...99/pa230186.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/content_round....0/img1616cz.jpg

This post has been edited by Omnivorous on November 08, 2011 01:12 am

A little more information ...
Comment historian Bundesarhiva - stamped on the coins had the right to ask only the occupation administration.
German veteran Comment (5 years ago) - Issued to the commanders of battalions, for distribution among the local population
M43 - 43rd year of the sample
WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces)
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3812

Z M - Zahlungsmittel, Zeitmarke, Zeitmark





This post has been edited by Omnivorous on March 12, 2012 08:26 pm

Sorry for the bad translation Google

Request was made in Bundesarhiv.

Studies of the occupation administration in Belarus showed that the records associated with these coins - not detected.


Comment from the source Bundesarhiva http://www.bundesarchiv.de/index.html.de
A common problem in the German military history, the study records, the losses incurred during the war, documents destroyed during the fighting. In some aspects / periods of records lost or in part.


RESEARCH REPORT

record group RH 22 Befehlshaber rückwärtiges Heeresgebiet Mitte

RH 22/224 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 21.3.-31.8.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/225 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.9.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/226 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.7.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/227 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Juli-Dez. 41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/228 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB April-Dez. 41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/229 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia KTB Nr. 2 1.1.-30.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/230 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.1.-31.3.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/231 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.4.-29.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/232 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia KTB 1.7.-31.12.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/233 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB 1.7.-30.10.42.

RH 22/234 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Okt. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/235 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Nov.-Dez. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/236 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Ia Anl. z. KTB Juli-Dez. 42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/247 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 1 15.5.-31.12.41.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/248 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 2 1.1.-30.6.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/249 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte Qu KTB mit Anl. Nr. 3 1.7.-31.12.42.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/215 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte MilVerw. Abschlussbericht Teil 1.

Negative. Incl. no data re money etc.

RH 22/298 Bef. rückw. Heeresgeb. Mitte MilVerw. Abschlussbericht Teil 2.

Negative. Incl. a chapter about financial administration and tax but no information about any kind of occupation money etc.

record group RW 41 Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland

RW 41/79 WBOstland Ia Festlegung der Sicherheitsbereiche sowie Einrichtung von Wehrmacht- und Standortkommandanturenim Gebiet des Wehrmachtbefehlshabers Ostland Sept. 41.

Negative.

RW 41/49 WBOstland Ia Tätigkeitsbericht 16.7.-10.8.44.

Enthält u.a.:

Ausbau des Brückenkopfes Riga

Einsatz der Kommandanturen im Bereich Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland

Stellenbesetzung des taktischen Führungsstabes unter Generalleutnant John

Befehl zur Herauslösung des Stabes Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland und Aufteilung zwischen Armeeoberkommando 16 und 18

Übersicht der unterstellten Einheiten und Dienststellen

Monatsberichte Nr. 35 und 36, Juni - 8. Aug. 1944

Meldungen und Gefechtsberichte unterstellter Einheiten

Einsatzbefehle der Heeresgruppe Nord 1944

Negative.

RW 41/54 WBOstland Qu Besondere Anordnungen Nr. 1 – 43 4.1.-23.6.44.

Negative.

RW 41/55 WBOstland Int. 1.4.44 Sammlungen von Verfügungen des Wehrmachtbefehlshabers Ostland auf dem Gebiet der Verwaltung

Negative. Compedium of basic administrative orders regarding money, money transfer, currency regulations, prices. Payment with Rubel in the occupied Russian territory obligatory. No reference to special marking of coins, money etc.

record group RW 41 Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber Weißruthenien (former Stab „Kommandierender General der Sicherungstruppen und Befehlshaber im Heeresgebiet Mitte“. Became „Kommandierender General der Sicherungstruppen und Befehlshaber in Weißruthenien“ under command of Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Ostland. „Wehrmachtbefehlshaber Weißruthenien“ since 18.4.1944

RW 41/58 WBWeißruthenien Ia Kriegstagebuch Nr. 6 1.1.-30.6.44.

Negative.

RW 41/60 WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 1-99 1.1.-10.2.44.

Negative. Misc.

RW 41/59a WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 100 – 351 11.2.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Umgliederungen der Verbände

Auflösung von Kommandanturen

Verteiler

Einsatz von Kontrollkommisionen

Lage bei Heeresgruppe Mitte

Einsatzübersichten der Kommandanturen und Sicherungskräfte

Führerbefehl Nr. 11 "Feste Plätze"

Korpsbefehle

Verwaltungskarte

Polnische „Bandenbewegung“

„Aktivierung des Bandenkampfes“

Negative.

RW 41/59b WBWeißruthenien Ia Anl. z. KTB Nr. 100 – 351 11.2.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Umgliederungen der Verbände

Auflösung von Kommandanturen

Verteiler

Einsatz von Kontrollkommisionen

Lage bei Heeresgruppe Mitte

Einsatzübersichten der Kommandanturen und Sicherungskräfte

Führerbefehl Nr. 11 "Feste Plätze"

Korpsbefehle

Verwaltungskarte

Polnische „Bandenbewegung“

„Aktivierung des Bandenkampfes“

Negative.

RW 41/61 WBWeißruthenien Ia Tagesmeldungen unterstellter Einheiten 1.1.-30.6.44.

Negative. Incl. reports on Partisan activties only.

RW 41/63 WBWeißruthenien Ia Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 1.7.-13.11.44.

Enthält:

Vorgesetzte Dienststellen: 1. Juli - 10. Juli 1944 Heeresgruppe Mitte

11. Juli - 13. Nov. 1944 Panzer Armeeoberkommando 3

Negative.

RW 41/64 WBWeißruthenien Ia Anlagen zum Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 4.7.-16.9.44.

Enthält:

Sammlung von Versprengten

Kriegsgliederung

Übernahme der Befehlsführung im Raume Kurland

Übernahme der Aufgaben des Korück 590 mit Unterstellung der territorialen Dienststellen in Ostpreußen

Einsatz der Kommandanturen und Bereichsgrenzen

Einsatzübersicht der Kommandanturen und Bereichsgrenzen in Kurland

Negative.

RW 41/66 WBWeißruthenien Ia Berichte April 44.

Enthält:

Monatsberichte für April 1944 mit Einsatzkarte der unterstellten Verbände

Kriegsgliederungen

Tätigkeitsberichte

Negative.

RW 41/69 WBWeißruthenien Qu Kriegstagebuch Nr. 6 mit Anlagen 1.1.-30.6.44.

Enthält:

Stammlager 352 Minsk

Personelle Einsparungen

Kriegsgliederungen der Versorgungstruppen

Einsatz der 12./ Sicherungsregiment 51

Monatsberichte der Abteilungen

Negative.

RW 41/72 WBWeißruthenien Qu Kriegstagebuch Nr. 7 mit Anlagen 1.7.-13.7.44.

Enthält:

Geschäftseinteilung

Besondere Anordnungen für die Versorgung

Tätigkeitsberichte

Negative.

RW 41/70 WBWeißruthenien Qu Anl. z. KTB Bd. 1: 1. Jan. - 31. Mai 1944

Enthält:

Übersicht über Zug- und Waggongestellungen

Negative.

RW 41/71 WBWeißruthenien Qu Anl. z. KTB Bd. 2: 1. Jan. - 31. Mai 1944

Enthält:

Aufstellungen über zu zerstörende Objekte bei den Feldkommandantur 660, 812, 184, Wehrmachtskommandantur Minsk, Oberfeldkommandantur 400

Negative.

record group RW 31 Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206

RW 31/791Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/792Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 2. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/793Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/794Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 4. Vierteljahr 1942.

Negative.

RW 31/795Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Vierteljahr 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/796Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 2. Vierteljahr 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/797Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1943. Bd. 1: 1943-1943.

Negative.

RW 31/798Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 3. Vierteljahr 1943. Bd. 2: 1943-1943.

Negative.

RW 31/799Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, 1. Okt. 1943 - 9. Jan. 1944.

Negative.

RW 31/807Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, Außenstelle 49, 26. Febr. - 31. März 1943.

Negative.

RW 31/808Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch, Außenstelle 49, 30. Aug. 3. Dez. 1941.

Negative.

RW 31/956Wi Kdo Witebsk bzw. Wi Kdo 206 Kriegstagebuch Außenstelle Newel, 6. Aug. - 31. Okt. 1941.

Negative.

record group RHD 72 Kommandanten rückw. Armee- u. Heeresgebiete (official prints)

Negative. No prints re Russia/money etc.

record group RWD 17 OKW Wehrwirtschafts- u. Rüstungsstab (official prints)

Negative. No prints re Russia/money etc.

record group RWD 24 Territoriale Befehlshaber in der SU (official prints)

RWD 24/1 Verordnungsblatt des Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber Ostland Nr. 1-30 1941-44.

Negative.

..........record group RH 49 Einrichtungen des Kriegsgefangenenwesens

Checked finding aid online. In the finding aid are references to foreign money confiscated from POWs but nothing about special camp money etc.

..........record group R 6 Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 93 Generalkommissar für Weißruthenien in Minsk
1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 90 Reichskommissar für das Ostland 1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

..........record group R 91 Gebietskommissar im Geschäftsbereich des Reichskommissars für das Ostland 1941-1945 (records at BA Berlin)

Checked online finding aid online. Includes no references to money, coins, Rubel etc.

MSG 2/10249 Fotoalbum Ost- und Westfront 1939 – 1943.

Enthält auch:

verschiedene Flugblätter

Besatzungsgeld

Negative. Incl. 2 Rubel notes without NS-signs.

RW 19/913 OKW/Wehrwirtschafts- und Rüstungsamt Maßnahmen der Reichsverteidigung 1941.

Enthält:

Prägung von Münzen und Druck von Rentenbankscheinen

(Aufstellung), 25. Apr. 1941

Vorläufige Abschlußzahlen für die im Osten 1941

angefallene Luftwaffenbeute (Schaublatt), Dez. 1941

Negative.

Despite the fact that the documents in the archives have not yet been found, I insist on a version of the document, this was written, the source of the Bundesarhiva.

Imagining the coins in the occupied territory, it is necessary to understand who could pick up and use a coin in the occupied territories.
It may be just what you category of people from the Soviet collaborators working in the occupied territories to Germany voluntarily (spies, informers, informants, etc.)

My guess is that this coin - the document has confirmed a German dealer, Alfred Beck http://www.beck-militaria.de/, a few months ago, explaining that this document does not say what kind of document.

A comment from one of Russian forums.
Story of a German veteran of five years ago, that the coins spread the battalion commanders, among the local population - does not contradict the version of the one who wanted to, he took ...

A comment from one of Russian forums forums.
Such a stigma, seen on a coin, even in 199 × g for 15 kopecks in his youth did not show any interest.

The coin, marked abbreviation, as it is today and the driver's license or insurance certificate, there is a name that makes sense, there is a print, and expiry date. At 4 shared coins have it all in acronyms, and understanding the meanings of the stigma of one character to another.

One symbol, emblem of the Soviet Union, destroyed another symbol, an eagle with a swastika.
One explanation - the current, a Soviet officer, acting at the same time, a German, a voluntary worker, etc.
M43 - 43rd year of the sample document.
WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces) - who have been issued at the last stage, the unit commander http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3812
It does not matter that some documents can not see the M4, those who need, and so aware of them, the most important figure is screwed into the stamp, which put the year of issue and validity of the document (temporary one year).
At number 3 on the outer edges, visible angular shape hexagon, the year of issue and validity of the document.
I suppose that number 3 is carved on the hexagon which is screwed into the stamp.
No. 4, is far from the number 3, the distance between the digits, allows using a key or other tool, it is easy to replace, the figure of the stamp on the desired year, could be placed over the years of occupation numbers 1-2-3-4.
ZM - Zeitmarke, Zeitmark - namely, a temporary document, which was valid for one year of issuance.

The coins were dug up in Belarus, a small heap, one man with a metal detector, about 3 years ago ...
All sold out, but perhaps, in his several thousand coins still exist, as these two ...

Coins from the M43 WB - are worn, there are traces of use, the stigma of an eagle and the letters on the reverse of the outer edges are smoothed over a coin hanging in the pocket throughout the year, among his own kind of 20-30, where she very well could hide, well is sometimes used for other purposes.
Coins from the M43 WB, having fulfilled his own, were returned to former owners, their commander unit - WB Wehrmacht Befehlshaber (Commander of the Armed Forces), which they gave the new M44 year.
The old, 43 years old, lay with the new documents, forms, blanks with the seal of an eagle.
In issuing the document, left, only to put a stamp of release ...

The coins with one eagle, well see that the edge of the stigma of characters do not have the marks of use, wear, like a coin with the M43 WB.

Blanks, blank stamped for new documents were in one place with the old, the sample 43 years old, used documents.





This post has been edited by Omnivorous on May 25, 2012 12:01 am

Comment from the source Bundesarhiva.

If the coins were Abwehr business (espionage etc.) record group

RW 49 Nachgeordnete Dienststellen und Einheiten des OKW/ Amtes Ausland / Abwehr

would be interesting. The RG includes the surviving records of Abwehr units in Russia but it's only a small rest of what existed originally.
Checked the finding aid. The record titles do not refer to identity discs (but this was not to expect because the finding aid titles are quite general). But to check all Russia records would take plenty of time and the chance for success is very small. That's why I can not recommend research.


Possibly the coins were issued by a local commander or secret service officer. That means they could have been only of local use. Then there is no chance to find information because of small units and local commanders no records survived.


Often I saw forms and orders for identity cards for militias and collaborators but saw nothing about secret identity discs for Russians. But the existence of identity cards does not automatically exlude identity discs.

But most of the records of the secret service units are lost. The records in RW 49 are only a small rest. That means the chance that we can find docs in the Abwehr records is very small. Notwithstanding cheching the files would need plenty of time. That means the research will be expensive and the chance for success is very small.


But so many unauthorized things happend that it makes no sense to say: Impossible.

In the story, there is a coin with nadchekanami, in the occupied territories ... AK Markov refers to the time they Countermark Persian campaign of Peter I, to the activities of Russian occupation authorities to regulate currency circulation in the occupied regions of Gilan and Mazendaran. Both monety1, which made Countermark, A. Markov, believed issued in Isfahan, one in the 1131's. (1718-1719 gg.), Another in the 1138's. (1725 - 1726 gg.) (Table I, 7, 10). Later in the Hermitage received the third copy Counterstamped coins (Table I, 8), which, according to AK Markova, released in Gandzhe2. http://vsemonetki.ru/books/item/f00/...18/st014.shtml

In order to find out who did it ... looking at these nadchekany, you will never forget about who were the people who made nadchekan, they were not numismatists, and religious people who believed in what they do, and that God helps them in these matters ...

Since this version has not heard, I will express it ...
The knowledge gained about the coins, the use of coins in ancient Rome, in order to spy on the occupied territories, Peter I have been put into practice ...
In the case of complete replacement of the coins in the occupied territories to coin nadchekanami, this area was automatically, under full control of security forces.
Spy, it was enough to provide the necessary knowledge to use with a coin.
The official explanation for the public, government action in their interests to be declared, but the essence was different ...
My opinion is that in many ways, for security in the occupied territory, it was this nadchekan.

The very essence of nadchekana was a mystery to people in the occupied territories of ancient Rome ...
For the current version of the nadchekanah, on coins, I want to make a significant addition ...
The Romans were among the first to use these coins for safety and use of coins, ruled the occupied territories.
Using ancient and secret knowledge of Roman priests of Rome ... spies were everywhere ...

The ancient pagan rite, nadchekanom, destroyed images on coins.
The Romans and the Orthodox, differently interpreted his nadchekany, because they are different religions, and, accordingly, different images on the coins and nadchekanah ...
But the very essence of nadchekana, the use of secret knowledge with the coin in the occupied territories remained unchanged ...

Nadchekany Roman legions


Nadchekan Tenth Legion "Fretenzis"
Countermark of the Legio X Fretensis
802 10th legion v1


Nadchekan Tenth Legion "Fretenzis"
Countermark of the Legio X Fretensis
806 10th legion v1

http://www.judaea.ru/catalog/nadchekany ... _legionov /

It is well known that the archaeological excavations carried out in all the occupied countries, and around the world in search of artifacts.

Conducting virtual excavation, we can see what the coins were the subject of their investigation.
In occupied Poland and Ukraine, could be investigated these coins ...

S.C. The sign on the coin «Senatus Consultus» («By order of the Senate")


I want to draw attention to the fact that the manufacture of such coins in different countries, has always been a special decree of the Senate.

I am/was not aware of Germans supervising archeological excavations in the occupied countries.
I am still skeptical regarding your quote.
It was much more convenient for Germans to loot museums and private collections. Why they should spend energy in archeological digging? Their archeological expeditions were performed until 1939, mostly outside Europe. Then they had other things to do.
I have no time to check what I am adding now: I think once the Wehrmacht had Kiev under control, under Himmler orders they started to search for the remains left from the first Kiev kingdom, 1000 years before (founded by the Germanic Vikings).

This post has been edited by Florin on October 16, 2012 10:09 pm

Florin
If you wish, you can find a variety of sources, information on archaeological excavations in the occupied territories ...
Too long and a lot of writing, and then translate, why and what they had to expend energy on digging.
You're right, robbing much easier ...

Due to the fact that in today's Russia, can not find the answer to questions about the subject.
I declare the reward to anyone who helps uncover the truth.
This may be a few people.
Remuneration will, who will find a person who can tell the truth.
It may be, German veteran, or our former compatriots, who have fought against communism on the German side.
Or perhaps their descendants ... who can shed some light on this ...
The reward will be paid to them.

This will depend, at what price, selling coins at auction.

In the near future, 1 coin will be sold at auction in Russia.

One of the coins offered for sale.
Invite all interested people to participate in the auction - http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/forum67/topic33681/

A coin from the first post in this thread, for further research, transferred to the State Historical Museum ...