Georgia vs. Russia

Right so.Until the bilions invested in alternativ sources of energy,bear fruit......

Russia didn't seriously think about or dismissed this risk when it decided to attack US-ally Georgia.

Especially considering that:

NATO allies reaffirmed on April 28 their strong support to Georgia sovereignty

http://www.unomig.org/media/headlines/?id=...y=2008&m=4&d=29

Russian junta knows what Hitler knew, backin the thirties ,about western mentality.So they push it and probably we will have a Czehoslovak scenario.The new georgian gov.is ready in Moscow and waits to be instate.
Meantime,dr.Goebells would be proud of whats going on on russian tv chanels.

Russia didn't seriously think about or dismissed this risk when it decided to attack US-ally Georgia.

Especially considering that:

NATO allies reaffirmed on April 28 their strong support to Georgia sovereignty

http://www.unomig.org/media/headlines/?id=...y=2008&m=4&d=29

Georgia is not a NATO member so Russia did not take any uncalculated risks. Moreover, some consider the disproportionate actions of Russia as a punishment for an ex-Soviet state ambitions of becoming a NATO member. Do not forget that this is still the core of the Russian sphere of influence. The reality is that with all foreign support for Georgia, nothing can be really done, since neither US nor NATO are bound by a signed treaty to offer military support in case Georgia sovereignity is violated.

Yes, legalistically that is correct. But if these are the principles then China can attack Taiwan too without fearing US intervention. US has no defense treaty with Taiwan, only declarative support. And it would not risk WW3 over a small island. Good luck to the defenders.

Since we all know that history repeats itself, there are two general perspectives, of which one for the masses is that it viewes things in black and white (ie the good versus the bad).

From the expansion of the Roman empire to the rise of the British empire and to the more recent US interventions in Irak and Afghanistan, all big players try their chances to get the lion's share of the known world.

Now, which of them is more evil is a different story, but in this spirit, Goebels would be also proud of some American TV channels !

99% of american tv chanels dont give a dam of what is going on in the world.Even Fox news,which is run by neo-cons,accords no more then 2-3 minutes to the conflict ,being preocupied by Edwards affair.But to accuse CNN,ABC,NBC,as Victor said is "groslly exagerated"
Anyway,I swtrongly doubt that you whach this chanels (with the exception of CNN) and russian Chanel1,NTV,RTR etc.But you are right,why compare with dr .Goebels,when he was only a pupil of soviet propaganda.We have "the real Mc Coy"

P.s.
Dragos,of course I agree with you that thing are not only in black and white,but infinite shades of gray.
And of course the georgian gouvernement foolishly took the bait presented by russians,and started this war.But now the things are not about Georgia and Ossetia anymore.And thats what everybody must understand

Russia is the biggest producer of petroleum in the world, and possible the biggest exporter of petroleum (this can be easily checked, but I think I am right).
Western Europe became very dependent of imports of Russian oil and natural gas.
On the other side, the Russian economy is now sustained mostly by the oil exports. Russia already is a "Petrostate", even thought this is not as obvious as for Saudi Arabia.
So if the oil stops flowing, both sides will lose. It's like a gamble, but Russia will dare more in any gamble. Western Europe, as usual, will show its weak side.
And the United States will not do much beyond words, because most of American imports of oil are not coming from Russia.
Any local "oil crisis" will be felt in Europe, but not in The United States.

Why is the EU so placid? We are 460 millions, the sum of GDP`s of our country makes us the economical superpower of the world...
We could dictate everything to everybody, even US should take in consideration our will, but still we can`t have a common opinion...
We should have a stand here, if not for democratic values , at least to secure our energetic independence (Nabucco project).
How can we be so weak?

The only alternative to the Russian oil and gas pipes connects Baku and Turkey, passing through Georgian territory. I wonder if Russia will take the opportunity to bomb the pipes. Something tells me that Putin won't waste the opportunity.

As to why the EU is so weak, this isn't such a big mistery: many of the member states and their politicians can't see beyond their immediate interests. Ofcourse a truly united EU would be a very powerful organization, much more powerful than any of the member states alone. It is our common interest to come together in this super-state, but there are too many people that simply don't get it and cling to their narrow interests and perspective as if they were made of gold. Hopefully more will realize this before it is too late. The Russian invasion of Georgia can act as a good wake-up call for the current EU impotence.

Well,this and the fact that,after Bush kept blabbling "Georgia this and Georgia that" prior and during the NATO summit,they've gotten sick of hearing "Georgia" again.

Plus,Saakhashvili is hardly and angel.He has imprisoned opposition members and has shut down Georgian media that is critical of him. You could say he's a Traian Basescu unleashed. How come the US always manages to prop up unsavory characters in countries that need autocrats the least,I don't know.

In any case,I don't know about impotence (they acted switftly in Kosovo where they had motivation) it's more about unwillingness to jump in the fire for a president they view as reckless.

Does anyone know concrete details on the military losses suffered by Georgia and Russia? I am thinking mostly of the number and type of aircraft lost by both sides, in air and on the ground.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on August 13, 2008 07:54 am

I dont think anybody,but the pats in the conflict,have such figures yet.Yesterday georgians were claiming 20 shot down planes and late last night,the Gen.Staff of 58 army was admiting 5 planes shot down.Fog of war.The planes in discution were SU 25 and Tu 22( ? )

1 Tu-22 and 3 Su-25 according to Russian sources

http://www.interfax.com/3/419149/news.aspx