Romanian Army in Budapest 1919

For Dead-Cat,

I am not sure I understand what you say about Poland's role in fighting against Lenin and Tukhachevsky. Do you really like the Communists ?
I strongly believe that the strong cooperation between Poland, Czechoslovakia and Romania helped this part of Europe to contain them into the limits of Lenin's and Stalin's quarters. Otherwise, the axis Moscow-Budapest-Vienna-Berlin was still possible. Do you really dislike Europe had a lot more fresh air for at least 25 years "
This is a link to an interesting paper, from the Commie point of view (lot of sadness for losing such a "historic opportunity" !).

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/9629


The Ukrainian Revolution 1917-1921: Deciding the fate of European socialist revolution (Chris Ford)

“…
The Ukrainian question decides the fate of European revolutions
Amidst meltdown the demand for the reconstitution of Soviet Ukraine received support from THE HUNGARIAN SOVIET REPUBLIC FOUNDED IN MARCH 1919, SOON FOLLOWED BY THE BAVARIAN AND SLOVAK SOVIET REPUBLICS. The resolution of the Ukrainian question was urgent, for it was from here that direct aid could be provided to the Hungarian and European revolution.
The Hungarian leaders sought to act as mediator, proposing an independent Ukraine with a government including the Nezalezhnyky and Borotbisty. THE RED ARMY COMMANDER ANTONOV, UNDER ORDERS TO GO ON A WESTWARDS OFFENSIVE echoed their demands. All their efforts were shunned by Rakovsky. From Budapest Bela Kun wrote to Lenin that: “Forcing Rakovsky on the Ukrainians against their wishes, in my opinion, will be an irreparable mistake”. THE HISTORIC OPPORTUNITY WAS LOST. THE ROMANIAN AND POLISH ARMIES CLOSED THE ROAD TO HUNGARY.”

what i am trying to say is, that the Soviet-Polish war was about grabbing territory and not an anti-boshevik war, proven by the passive polish stance in mid 1919.
also i am saying, that once the "revolution" was defeated in germany, it had no chance whatsoever, given the restricted military capabilities of the reds during the entire 1920ies.

1292 locomotive engines??? I wonder if today exists so many locomotives in both Hungary and Romania...
34.160 railway cars... that means a train long of at least 350 km. What was the length of hungarian railways at that time? Wasn't it a bit crowded?

This post has been edited by BG7M on December 25, 2007 11:24 pm

Maybe as the inheritor of the defunct Austro-Hungarian Empire they had lots of stuff in big numbers.

The hungarians "forgot" to mention that romanian troops get actually back a lot of railcars still inscripted with romanian marks, as those were war spoils taken in previous years by hungarian army from Romania.
The rest of the numbers were taken by romanians as war compensations for the loses inflicted by hungarian troops when they occupied Romania.

It's irrelevant how many railway engines are in Rumania and Hungary today, almost 90 years after the described event.

As for your original question, let's not forget that back then Transyvania was part of Hungary, so most MAV railway rolling stock was evacuated in front of the Rumanian troops' advance. Those were then captured by Rumanians in 1919 and moved to Rumania proper.

I cannot answer this specific question. All I can say is that Hungary - as part of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy - had a rather developed and extensive railway system, which back then was considered highly strategic from the military point of view. That was one of the reasons why the territory that included the railway lines linking Satu Mare (Szatmárnémeti)-Oradea [Mare] (Nagyvárad)-Arad was eventually attached to Greater Rumania at the Trianon Peace Treaty.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 26, 2007 03:26 pm

"today" is not much of a comparision, as the engines are much stronger and the railcars much bigger, coupled with the fact that the railroad has a much lower share in goods and person transport than back in the early 1900s.

in the 1910s, the most common railcar was a 2 axle 15t load boxcar, while today 40-60t load, 4 axle cars are common.
by 1913, the german railroad had 30.000 locos and about 750.000 railcars.
today, in numbers, the rolling stock is around 35-40%.

numbers for austria-hungary are hard to come by, but an estimate would give around 20.000 locos and about 500.000 railcars for the entire A-H. Of this, hungary should have inherited 20-25%, so 34.000 cars should represent about 1/4-1/3 of the hungarian rolling stock.

i did a project, around 4 years ago, for the romanian railway. there i spoke with with an official who told me that CFR marfa has around 60.000 railcars today.

would the railway operators have an efficient way of tracking railcars, they'd need much less, since most of the time they idle somewhere in a railyard, often not being known they are where they are. thus the need for a larger number of railcars than strictly required.

Where did you take this from? What is the source of this claim?

When did Hungarian troops occupy Rumania? As far as I know, during late 1916-late 1918, very few Hungarian troops stationed in the Rumanian Kingdom. Most of the occupying Central Powers troops were Austrian, Bulgarian, Turkish, etc.

Gen. Dénes

With regards the Bavarian Soviet Republic,

Which I think lasted about a month!!, so a very poor example:

The Bavarian Soviet Republic, also known as the Munich Soviet Republic (German: Bayerische Räterepublik or Münchner Räterepublik) was a short-lived government established after the assassination of Kurt Eisner. It sought to replace the fledgling Weimar Republic in its early days. Its capital was Munich.

Kurt Eisner:

On 7 November 1918, the anniversary of the Russian October Revolution, Kurt Eisner of the Independent Social Democratic Party of Germany (USPD) declared Bavaria a "free state" – a declaration which overthrew the monarchy of the Wittelsbach dynasty which had ruled for over 700 years. Eisner became Minister-President of Bavaria. Though he advocated a "socialist republic", he distanced himself from the Russian Bolsheviks, declaring that his government would protect property rights. For a few days, the Munich economist Lujo Brentano served as Minister of Trade (Volkskommissar für Handel).

After Eisner's USPD had lost the elections, he decided to resign from his office. On 21 February 1919, as he was on his way to parliament to announce his resignation, he was shot by Anton Graf Arco-Valley, who was rejected from membership in the Thule Society because of Jewish ancestry on his mother's side. This assassination caused unrest and lawlessness in Bavaria, and the news of a soviet revolution in Hungary encouraged communists and anarchists to seize power.

Politics of the Soviet Republic:

On 6 April, a Soviet Republic was formally proclaimed. Initially, it was ruled by USPD members such as Ernst Toller, and anarchists like Gustav Landauer, Silvio Gesell and Erich Mühsam. However, Toller, a playwright, was not very good at dealing with politics, and his government did little to restore order in Munich.

His government members were also not always well-chosen. For instance, the Foreign Affairs Deputy (who had been admitted several times to psychiatric hospitals), declared war on Switzerland over the Swiss refusal to lend 60 locomotives to the Soviet Republic. Rumours also had him send cables to both Pope Benedict XV and Vladimir Lenin, asking as to the whereabouts of the key to the lavatory. As such, the regime collapsed within six days, being replaced by the Communist Party, with Eugen Levine, sometimes characterized as a "potential German Lenin", as their leader.

Levine began to enact Communist reforms, which included expropriating luxurious apartments and giving them to the homeless and placing factories under the ownership and control of their workers. Levine also had plans to abolish paper money and reform the education system, but never had time to implement them.

Levine refused to collaborate with the regular army of the city, and also organized his own army, the Red Army (Rote Armee) under Rudolf Egelhofer, similar to the Red Army of Soviet Russia. In order to support the revolutionary government, thousands of unemployed workers volunteered; soon the ranks of the Rote Armee reached 20,000. The Red Guards began arresting suspected counter-revolutionaries and on 29 April 1919, eight men, including the well-connected Prince Gustav von Thurn and Taxis, were accused as right-wing spies and executed. The Thule Society's secretary, Countess Hella von Westarp, was also murdered.

Demise:

Soon after, on 3 May 1919, the German army (called the "White Guards of Capitalism" by the Communists), having a force of 9,000, and Marinebrigade Ehrhardt, having a force of 30,000 men, entered Munich and defeated the Communists, after bitter street fights in which over 1,000 volunteer supporters of the government were killed. About 700 men and women were arrested and executed by the victorious Freikorps. Levine was condemned to death for treason.

Kevin in Deva.

I see that very few understand the importance of putting down the wave of RED REVOLUTIONS over an Europe exhausted by WW1, at a distance of MONTHS or EVEN WEEKS keeping them apart. It's quite clear that Lenin and Trotzky had very good followers at that time. Unfortunately, Reich's and American money funnelled to Lenin was not enough.

Hello All:
I am a new subscriber and have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. No question, many people have far more knowledge than I.
I am writing a bio on General Harry Bandholtz, and his name appears frequently on these pages. There are some errors however. Many are trivial, but should be corrected.
In a post dated Dec 6, Mateias writes that General Bandholtz was promosted on paper to General, when he was assigned to Budapest. Not true. He was first promoted to Brigadier General, as Chief of Philippine Constabulary, in the Philippines during 1907, however this was a temporary promotion. His permanent grade was not realized until 1917, when he served as Brigade Commander, 58th Infantry Brigade, and took that unit to the battlefields of France. He remained on the front until September of 1918, when he was assigned as Provost Marshal General, American Expeditionary Forces. His Budapest assignment followed during 1919.
Regarding his stamp collection, he was an avid collector most of his adult life, and had a fantastic collection from around the world. After his death, his widow sold the collection. How many Romanian stamps were in the collection is anyone's guess.
Another comment was that General Bandholtz had no authority to visit Romania. He was invited by King Ferdinand, a special train was provided, and he and his staff were guests of the King and Queen Maria, at their Summer Palace, in Sinaia.
My interest in joining this forum is to learn more about the Romanian Generals whom General Bandholtz was most acquainted, namely Holban and Mardarescu.Would anyone be so kind as to provide me with dates and places of birth and death, plus any information regarding what commands they had?
By the way, I have found no reference to General Bandholtz knocking down any Romanian General, or any other person, with his riding crop!

I have created two topics in the Biography section of the forum. See there.

Viktor:
Thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for!

Romanian soldiers enter Budapest 4 aug 1919 Source e-bay

She's name was Baronees Dora de Taxis.